Q Which members ?
A Of the participating members. Any German could become a member of the Society for the Ahnenerbe. Where else did the money come from ? titute of Research for War Purposes. Where did this money come from ? to be set aside specifically according to the regulations which applied.
THE PRESIDENT: I have before me the commission evidence on this. This has all been stated in the commission and I have it before me.
DR. PELCKMANN: You are quite right, Your Lordship, but the prosecution just now raised the questions in such a way that the witness had no chance to give an exact reply.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think that you can make your examination shorter, in view of the fact that this evidence was all given before the commission and the Tribunal has this before them ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, My Lord. The members, or rather the collaborators and those who were charged with the research projects for the Ahnenerbe Stiftung, can you tell me what percentage of them belonged to the SS ?
THE WITNESS: Perhaps one-half. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Were the rest of them Party members? non-political ? refused admittance by the party and by the state.
Q Did Professor Seip belong to this group ?
in the University and I was responsible for his liberation from a concentration camp. and you have been confronted with only extracts. This includes 330 pages, however the extracts number only three pages. On the basis of this material, can you tell me if these matters which were discussed here supply only a fraction of the mass of the work carried on by the Ahnenerbe Stiftung ? Please be very brief.
A Yes, I can confirm that. That is why I am waiting to give my explanation in this connection. My notes were not saved for the purpose so that I could conceal things, but to tell of matters in the interests of clearing up the truth. and competent explanation from the fragments of your diary that were put to you in the court of your testimony and afford a comprehensive truthful statement without giving the entire contents of the diary ? size of the diary. You can see from the large size of the book, that which my work took up and the limited matters discussed here, When we consider the time in which they occurred, it is almost impossible to even discuss these matters and to make complete statements according to the truth. In my previous interrogation, I again and again referred to that fact. In my secret remarks and data so that I could give comprehensive statements, because of my political attitude, it was very close to my heart to put things right, but my requests were not granted and I put this in a written request on December 20th so that I could produce essential truths.
Q That is quite sufficient, witness. I should like to have just one example where a completely wrong picture must result if the witness is limited to put a fraction and fragment of his diary.
I should like to submit the entry page 103-14 April--1330-1515 Hours. Station Rascher; "Situation of work, further work, orders for provisional carrying on--Hatuf. Pletner introduced." This shows the work is taking place, there is future work and directives were then carried out. The things which followed are not shown in the extract. I should like to call the witness' attention to this and have him comment. Witness, please read this matter before you and tell us, whether from this diary entry, would follow that Dr. Pletner, as maintained by the prosecution, continued Rascher's work?
A From this we can see clearly that Dr. Pletner did not continue the experiments on human beings. On the basis of this remark, I could develop a comprehensive picture, however, I do not have the time at my disposal.
THE PRESIDENT: This is not necessary.
THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, I am not in the position to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the witness have the Document Book ? Why doesn't he read it ?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I shall read it.
Dr. Pletner worked with the Polygal Pruefung and that was the coagulating agent.
DR. PELCKMANN: Please give your comments later.
THE WITNESS: The continuance of the work of Polygal Pruefung and reports that the production of this coagulating agent had been secured for three months, that is, reports on the production. The first reports were to Schlachter and through Schlachter arrangements were to be made for the purchase of machines.
DR. PELCKMANN: Does it mean that Dr. Ploetner was brought into the administration and business matters of the production of Polygal Pruefung, the name of the coagulating agent?
THE WITNESS: You want a picture of the work Dr. Ploetner "Eingewiesen" brought in ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Dr. Rascher had started with the development of Polygal Pruefung, however, this experiment did not come up to expectations and did not cone up to expectations and did not meet the demands.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, your question was, "Does this inquiry show that Dr. Ploetner did not continue the experiments of Dr. Rascher?"
DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, the question was not just that, according to ay memory. I wanted to know something quite different from the witness. May I please clarify this point after the witness has read these remarks and his memory has been refreshed?
THE PRESIDENT: It is my recollection and the recollection of the other members of the Tribunal that the question that the question you put was: "Does not the entry in your diary show that Dr. Ploetner did not carry on the work of Dr. Rascher?" That is the question which you put. We want the answer to it and no other.
DR. PELCKMANN: Then, I did not express myself correctly, your Lordship. I wanted to know if after you read this entry, your memory was refreshed as to the happenings at the time?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
DR. PELCKMANN: Please describe them.
THE PRESIDENT: In the first place you realize, or you should realize, that the object of re-examination is to make clear or to contradict anything which has been put in cross-examination, and that is the only purpose of re-examination. In the second place, the Tribunal does not assume from the fact that the witness has been cross-examined to show that certain brutal and illegal experiments were made by this institution, that the institution did nothing else and we do not propose to sit here for a prolonged time to hear everything else that this institution did. The only object of your redirect examination should be to contradict the fact that illegal experiments were made, or to clear up any doubts which might arise on those illegal experiments, not to show us that they did other things. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Witness, after Rasher's arrest, according to your knowledge, were these further inhuman experiments carried on?
Q Nothing?
A No. Dr. Ploetner, as I have already testified, expressly refused to do that. other inhuman experiments? Purposes, into which I had insight, no. for war purposes work, What personalities of the SS had insight into these experiments? Himmler personally, and there were very few people.
Q About how many might there have been? Five or ten don't matter, really, you know.
Q Did these directives have the protection of Secrecy? or Top Secrecy for one part by the Geheime Reichsach? us whether you would consider it possible that the mass of the SS membership know about those matters? have known about them. experiments carried on by Rasher, was quite indignant and horrified at the fact that anything like that could happen. Do you recall anything like that personally?
A Yes, for I had to report personally to him on this matter. He was extraordinarily wrought up at this conversation and mentioned things which he had learned in connection with the arrest of Rasher, matters which upset him very, very deeply and in his excitement he began to accuse me and he was quite surprised that Himmler had the closest personal connection to Rasher direct and that all directives had gone directly from Himmler himself.
Q That is quite sufficient. Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, can you conclude the observation you want to make in five minutes?
THE WITNESS: I do not no any longer than that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, go on then.
THE WITNESS: In the cross-examination I was accused of the fact that I personally had no misgivings whatsoever regarding these experiments on human beings. However, I must contradict this most energetically. The conflict of my conscience was extremely large and was not appeased. In the beginning, because of assurance which I had received from Himmler, therefore I spoke with the leader of my secret branch, with the result that a further refusal would have cost me my head. An open demonstration was the only thing that was left. And secondly, the people who were sent there would not have been protected in any way, nor they would not have been saved.
This work would have been carried through one way or another in any event. done, would not have dared. Wherever possible, through silent sabotage, I prevented those things which possibly could be prevented. My repeated efforts on the basis of my secret data, remarks and reports, which are present to the amount of hundreds of pages, as Dr. Pelckmann has shown, was not in vain. Even now, time does not permit me to give a further and comprehensive picture of the action and to give the background. I personally refused and rejected these experiments. I did not permit them. I played the role as a man at a University does, who quite in a like manner had to assist everyone in the administrative and business affairs. Therefore, the question of my credibility and of my personal attitude has to be touched only once more, just as the documents submitted show that I said in my interrogations before the Commission, as Dr. Pelckmann has just now once more stated. If my credibility is to be doubted because of my illegal activities, then the leader of the secret branch, Dr. Hilger, who is in Nurnberg, can be at your disposal, I thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.)
MR. ELWYN JONES: I have three brief documents to put in on the SS case. The first is the document 4043-PS, which I hand to the Polish delegation, to be GB-592. It sets out the names of the 846 Polish priests and monies and the Polish clergy murdered at Dachau concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that a state report?
MR. ELWYN JONES: An affidavit by a Polish priest, attaching the names of the priests to his statements, the names appearing in a Polish publication, a Polish newspaper, Polska Prodena. priest, giving the following statement. I am wrong in saying that it is a statement on oath; but it does attach a list of the priests which was published in the Catholic weekly, Polska Prodena. If the Tribunal is uneasy about the document, I shan't press it. I am asked by the Polish delegation to submit it. GB-492, in place of the last document, is an order from Himmler to the Higher SS and Police Chief, Ukraine, Kiev, dated the 7th of September, 1943. It reads:
"Dear Frutzmann, Infantry general stapf has special orders with regard to the Donetz area. Get in touch with him immediately. I order you to cooperate as much as you can. The aim to be achieved is that when areas in the Ukraine are evacuated, not a human being, hot a single head of cattle, not a hundredweight of cereals and not a railway line remain behind; that not a house remains standing; not a mine is available which is not destroyed for years to come, that then is not a well which is not poisoned. The enemy must really find completely burnt and destroyed land. Discuss these things with Stampf straight away and do your absolute best. Heil Hitler, Yours, Himmler."
There is a note attached to it: "SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Berger has received the copy with the request that the Reich Minister for the East be informed." There are copies to the Chief of the Regular police, Chief of the Security Police and SD, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Berger, Chief of the Partisan-combatting units, copies sent with a request that they be noted.
THE PRESIDENT: Who was the Reich Minister at the time?
MR. ELWYN JONES: As I understand it, My Lord, it was Rosenberg. That is an instruction of Himmler dated the 10th of July, 1943, to the chief of units for combatting partisans, the higher SS and police chiefs in the Ukraine, higher SS and police chiefs in Russia, Central Sector.
The first paragraph: "The Fuehrer has decided that the -whole population has to be evacuated from partisan-ridden territories of the northern Ukraine and of the Central Russian sector."
"2. The whole male population fit for work will be directed to the Reich Commissar for the employment of labor according to regulations which are yet to be laid down but under the condition of PW's.
#3. The female population will be directed to the Reich Commissar for the Employment of Labor for work in the Reich.
"4. Part of the female population and all children who have no parents will be sent to our reception centers.
"5. The evacuated territories are to be taken over and run by the Higher SS and Police Chiefs, as much as possible in accordance with an arrangement still to be made with the Reich Minister of Food and with the Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. They are to be planted partly with Kok-Sagys and as far as possible agricultural use is to be made of them. The camps for children are to be established on the edge of these territories in order that the children may be available as labor for the cultivation of Kok-Sagys and for agriculture.
"Final proposals are to be submitted to me as soon as possible.
(Signed) H. Himmler."
DR. PELCKMANN: Just one minute.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Pelckmann.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I put a formal question relating to this? Are the documents put to the witness?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has some questions to put to the witness.
DR. PELCKMANN: If these documents are not put to the witness, then I should like to object to their being used for the old reason which I have already given, that in the submission of evidence the Prosecution is terminated.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already ruled that new documents may be put in in this way.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I beg to be permitted to put one question to this witness in order to clear up the name which he has used.
Witness, you have mentioned the Institute for Experiment. Is that the entire name of that institute? Will you give the entire and complete name?
THE WITNESS: The institute for the purpose of making experiments of a military nature, run by the Waffen SS and the police. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): inmates from the concentration camps. Who in the Luftwaffe made that contact?
A I didn't say that by Himmler's orders the Air Force was attacking concentration camps, no.
Q Wait, listen to the question. I didn't suggest that you said that. I said that you said that someone in the Luftwaffe had made a contact with Himmler in order to get inmates from the concentration camps. Did you say that?
A No, I didn't say that either. Yes, Dr. Grawitz, the Reich Medical Chief officer of the SS, informed me that the Air Force, though I don't know which department of it, had applied for the seaworthiness experiments to be carried out and that they had with reason applied for these at their disposal.
Q You mentioned the name of General Milch in your testimony. What connection, if any, did General Milch have with any of these experiments? here and also the experiments which in 1941 were started and carried out by medical officers of the Air Force, that is to say, Professor Holzloemner, staff medical officer for Russia, Professor Hascher, and a third one who was working for the Aeronautical Experiment Institute at Adelshof but his name I have forgotten.
Q And what connection did General Milch have with these experiments? Did he make the arrangements for them? and Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff which has been shown me here on the occasion of previous interrogation. from the correspondence that's been submitted. or stations for biological research? and that's all I know and nothing else, that is to say, such experiments which came into the sphere of influence of the Reich Medical Officer-SS and nothing could be ascertained about that.
Q One last question. You said that after the arrest of Dr. Rascher that there were; no more illegal experiments that were connected with the Institute. Do you know of any others that were not connected with the Institute?
A That refers to the previous question. It is intimately connected with it, One did hear, for instance, of the work of Professor Schilling; but they never became known to me in detail.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: May it please the Tribunal, during the examination of the witness, Dr. -
THE PRESIDENT: You are not wanting me to keep the witness, are you?
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: No, sir. During the examination of the witness, Dr. Best, the Tribunal kindly agreed to permit the Prosecution to introduce another document, which at that time was not available, and with the permission of the Tribunal at this time I should like to offer it. The document is 4051 PS and becomes USA 924. This document has been shown to the witness Best in the presence of the counsel for the Gestapo, Dr. Merkel, and the witness has identified it. The document shows not only that the witness Best had knowledge of the program of counter-terror carried on in Denmark, but that he himself decreed acts of counter-terrorism to be taken, and that on one occasion he ordered the execution of a student.
During the examination of Dr. Best the Tribunal will recall a series of documents, USA Exhibits 911 to 915 inclusive, which were offered to show the the Gestapo murdered a French general. At that time we had only the photostatic copies of these documents, and I told the Tribunal that we would try to obtain the originals, We now have the originals in our possession, and they are being substituted for the photostatic copies. the time that this alleged murder was supposed to have taken place, that a French General, General Mesny, was killed, and he said he did not know that. The French Prosecution has given us the documentary proof that General Mesny was killed at that time under circumstances which prove conclusively that this murder was accomplished in conformity with the plans which have heretofore been shown, and to that end I now offer as document next in order 4069 PS, which becomes USA 925. This document is certified by the delegation of the Ministry of Justice of France. the International Red Cross Committee, Geneva, dated 5 April, 1945, to Madame Mesny. I wish to emphasize the fact that this document is dated long before the present time and was written at a time when the other documents which the Tribunal has the benefit of were, of course, entirely unknown.
Legation in Berlin, had sent certain information concerning General Mesny, and I should just like to respectfully invite your attention to the second paragraph of his report, where he states that the Generals Flavigny, de Boisse, and Buisson had been transferred from Oflag IV B in Koenigstein to Oflag IV C in Colditz. "The Generals Mesny and Vauthier have also left Koenigsten in a private car for Colditz. According to a communication from Commandant Prawill, General Mesny was shot near Dresden while trying to escape." That was the report which the International Red Cross sent to Madam Mesny. the second document, which is dated 29 April, 1945, and which was written by General Buisson to the Minister of War concerning the case of General Mesny, General Buisson states in this letter as follows:
"On 18 January 1945 --" and parenthetically I refresh the recollection of the Tribunal that the last document which we offered was dated 12 January 1945 showing that at that time all plans for this murder had been completed. To continue with the document -- "the following six officers, all generals, from the camp of Koenigstein, Oflag IV B, were picked out and told to leave the Camp on 19 January in the morning, for an unknown destination. First car, Generals Daine and de Boisse." de Boisse was the General whom it was first intended to murder, as shown by the document, and if you remember, it was decided that General de Boisse would not be killed because his name had been discussed too often over the telephone, and therefore another general was to be substituted for him. So you see General de Boisse was in the first car.
"Second car, Generals Flavigny and Buisson. Third car, Generals Mesny and Vauthier. On 19 January, if the first car left at the appointed time, the other two did not, as both their order of departure and the times were changed. Second car, 7 a.m. General Mesny alone, for according to information given General Buisson through the German interpreter Rosenberg, an order had arrived from the German High Command during the night, cancelling General Vauthier's departure. Third car, Generals Flavigny and Buisson. The orders for the journey were draconian, destination unknown; it was strictly forbidden to make any stop on the way; the door handles were taken off the cars; there was a German officer in each car with an automatic pistol on his knees and his finger on the trigger.
"Upon our arrival in Colditz, the reprisal camp, towards noon on 19th January, we noticed the absence of General Mesny, who had not arrived; we thought he had been sent to another camp, although his luggage was in the truck with that of the four other generals. On January 29th, in the morning, Commandant Prawitt, head of Oflag IV-C came into the rooms of the French Generals and made the following announcement: 'I inform you officially that General Mesny was shot yesterday in Dresden while trying to escape. He was buried in Dresden with military honors by a detachment of the Wehrmacht.'" this comment, and it should be remembered that when he wrote this letter he, or course, had no knowledge of the plot as we know it today. He says, "Two facts remain obscure in the sombre tragedy: 1, the transport of General Mesny alone, the choice of General Vauthier; then the cancelling of the order seems very suspicious to us, given the attitude of the general, who was a volunteer for work in Germany, and whose transfer to a reprisal camp seemed inexplicable, 2, General Mesny, whose eldest son is in a camp for political deportees in Germany, said to me several times during the course of our conversations, 'If up to 1944 I always tried to prepare my escape, I gave up trying altogether afterwards, even if I had every chance of succeeding. First of all, the end of the war is only a question of weeks; moreover, and especially, I should be much too afraid that my flight would cost my eldest son his life.' An hour before his departure from Koenigstein on January 19th, General Mesny repeated those words to me again."
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I wonder if Your Lordship will allow me to mention a point before Dr. Laternser commences. As a result of the general evidence given before the Commission and the announcement that a number of summarizing affidavits will be tendered by certain organizations, the Prosecution have secured eleven affidavits of general scope made by state ministers, local counsellors and officials, and a publisher of a newspaper, dealing with the same matter as the summarized, affidavits which the defense.
are about to submit. That could of course, be put in cross examination to the witness for the SA who would be called, but I suggest for the consideration of the Tribunal that at this stage of the trial it would probably be more convenient if they were simply offered after the counsel for the organization have dealt with their documents. German copies to the counsel for the defense at once so that they would have an opportunity of considering them. Otherwise, of course, I should reserve them to be put in cross examination and preserve the element of surprise. that that was the more convenient course than occupying more time in cross examination at this stage when so many facts are known.
DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW): Mr president, I did not understand Sir David's suggestion, and I beg to have it repeated so that , if possible, the Defense Counsel can define their attitude in regard it.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you put it again?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: My Lord, I have eleven affidavits which were tall from various Gentlemen, including ex-state ministers of the Social Democratic Party and other non-Nazi parties, local officials, and one publisher of a never paper. They are designed to deal generally with the matters which have been given before the Commission and which are going to be dealt with, as I under stand, in the summarized affidavits, the affidavits summarizing the large quantity of affidavits. time in putting the contents of these affidavits to the witnesses for the SA, witness Juetner and others who would probably deal with most of the points, I should offer them after the Defense Counsel have offered their documents, a in order that the Defense Counsel would not be predudiced in any way, I suggest that, if that course were adopted, I should give them copies of these affidavit in German at once so that they would have an opportunity of seeing the contend at this stage of the trial in cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: That seems to the Tribunal to be a convenient course and to give the German Defense Counsel a longer period in which to study the affidavits.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: I will do that, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. How, Dr. Laternser.
DR. LATERNSER: With the permission of the Tribunal, I shall call as my from witness Field Marshal von Brauchitsch.
GENERAL TAYLOR: Might I make a brief observation before the witness comer
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, keep the witness out for a moment.
GENERAL TAYLOR: My Lord, I wanted to make a very brief observation concerning the scope of the testimony of the witness von Brauchitsch.
The other two witnesses that Dr. Laternser is calling--Fieldmarshal von Mannstein and Runstedt--were called in the first instance by Dr. Laternser and have testified before the Commissioner on practically every question relating to the General Staff and the High Command.
That will appear from the summaries of their evidence which, I think, are in the hands of the Court.
The case of the witness von Brauchitsch is somewhat different. The witness von Brauchitsch signed two affidavits which the Prosecution offered and which are in the record before the Tribunal as US Exhibits 532 and 535. Those affidavits relate exclusively to the question of the composition and organization of the General Staff and High Command group. Dr. Laternser only within the scope of those affidavits. No other matters were touched upon before the Commissioner. I now understand that Dr. Laternser proposes to examine the witness von Brauchitsch before the Tribunal on a great varies or at least, several other matters other than those covered in the affidavits. von Brauchitsch covers other matters other than those in the affidavits, he become a witness for the Defense and the Prosecution may possibly, though not necessarily have to cross examine him on those distinct matters. is going to talk about matters other than those that Mannstein and Runstedt have covered at length, it would be entirely fair and expeditious to confine the testimony of von Brauchitsch to the matters of the affidavits, unless, as I say, it is proposed that von Brauchitsch discuss matters which Runstedt and Mannstein are not going to cover.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal wishes you to go on and examine Fieldmarshal von Brauchitsch. They hope that insofar as his evidence covers the same ground as the other two witness that you are proposing to call, you will be as short as possible.
DR. LATERNSER: In that case, I shall now call Fieldmarshal von Brauchitsch as my first witness.
9 Aug M LJG 10-1a Haynes follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name, please? Can you hear now?
A Now I can hear. Walter von Brauchitsch.
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. LATERNSER: at the end? Army? General von Fritsch in the position of Supreme Commander of the Army. When you took over the office, did Fritsch inform you about the statements of intentions made by Hitler on 5 November 1937? tions? of the General Staff of the Army, inform you abort it? on the occasion of taking over that position of Supreme Commander of the armed Forces would have been necessary, would it not?
A In my view, most certainly.
9 Aug M LJG 10-2a Haynes of 5 November 1937? hearing from Hitler before the occupation of Austria? Austria?
A No; at least I do not know of one.
Q Was that interference a surprise to you? It is not correct, as the witness Gisevius said, that I was called away, The fact is that I was not in Berlin at all, I was on a duty journey and away from there. It was only after my return that I board of the instructions which had been given.
Q Were you not objecting to it? also afraid that from this interference further conflict would arise. meet you and congratulate you after the order for the march into Austria had been rescinded in the course of the 11 March? preciated by me. I was in the Reichchancellory, and it is guite possible that Papen may have congratulated no on that occasion. over heard in political affairs?
Q. Well, then, was there a plan for a military interference in that case?
A You mean Austria?
Fieldmarshal Keitel to use his entire influence in order that in no case should the agreement he infringed? had since May 1938, no longer handled the business of the people of the general staff. Is that correct?
A That is an error. General Beck, until the first of September 1938, handled the business of the General Staff in its entirety. with in this courtroom, and to which I shall not refer for that reason. In that memorandum, he spoke against the occupation of the Sudetenland. He war: against a war at two fronts. What did you do with that memorandum? measures. General Beck had composed a memorandum in which we reached the military conclusion that a war on behalf of Europe would have to lead to a world conflict. Since I consider these kinds of thought perfectly basic, I have the opportunity to present them to the Commanding General. There was another reason why I ordered those generals to appear in Berlin -- the discussion of the internal questions of the Army. They agreed that memorandum was later to be given to Hitler. There was an excited argument about it.
Q When, approximately was that?
Q On what occasion did Colonel General Adams get his discharge?
A In August, a conference at the Fuehrer's headquarters, a conference with the officers of the General Staff was ordered. During that conference Colonel General Adams, who was Group Commander at Wiesbaden at that time, expressed thoughts similar to those contained in the memorandum. That was the first thing which might have occasioned Ms release. However his release was not carried out until October of 1938, after a report given by General Adams. On that occasion Colonel Adams was expressing his views. occupied?