It is dated the 16th of June 1943. "Subject : Research into the cause of infectious jaundice", and Himmler says:
"I give the permission for 8 criminals condemned to death in Auschwitz (8 Jews of the Polish resistance movement who have been condemned to death) to be used for the experiments.
"I agree to Dr. Dohmen carrying out these experiments as Sachsenhausen "Like you, I am of the opinion that a real combatting of infectious jaundice woued be of untold value."
And then it is signed by Himmler with a note at the bottom :"SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Berlin. Copy sent with a request that note be taken." the Waffen SS and for the army, weren't they ?
A. I am just learning about these things for the first time. These things are not known to me and I cannot see what connection I have wit them.
Q. I want you to deal next with your experiments into spptted fever vaccine. Perhaps you may be al little more familiar with the nature of those experiments. Have you knowledge of those ? Professor Haagen might give you a clue.
A. Yes, Professor Haagen did carry on vaccinations against spotted fever at the request of the camp where this disease was prevalent.
Q. Who delegated Haagen for this work ?
A. He was the hygienist at the University of Strassburg.
Q. But I asked you, who delegated him for this work and not what his qualifications were for it.
A. As far as I recall, these experiments were carried through by Haagen on order of the Sanitary Inspector of the Wehrmacht and of the Lutfwaffe
Q. He was commissioned by Goering, wasn't he ?
A. Who was responsible for the delegation on behalf of the Luftwaffe, that I don't know.
Q. Just look at your own letter on this subject, Nol 008, the first document in the English document book -- GB 586. It is headed "Institute for practical scientific research for military purposes", dated the 19th of May 1944.
That was after Rascher had been removed from the scene. It is to "SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS Pohl, Chief of the WVHA. Subject : Production of a new kind of spotted fever serum".
"Dear Obergruppenfuehrer :
"Following our application of 30/9/43, you gave your authorization on the 25th October 1943, for the carrying out of experiments with a view to producing a new kind of spotted fever serum and transferred 100 suitable prisoners to Natzweiler for this purpose. It has been possible to carry out the experiments very satisfactorily so far with the help of the Chief of Department D III, SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Dolling commissioned by you. It appears from the results of the report before us that it is possible not only to achieve an anti-toxical, but -what should be of special practical importance also a decided anti-infectional immunity with the help of this serum. Inoculation, however, still produces a lengthy fever reaction so that its introduction for the protective inoculation in its present form cannot be recommended at yet. Further research is being carried out now with a view to changing the serum in such a way as to produce only so weak a reaction that no considerable effect on the general well-being takes place while retaining its full effectiveness. It is to be examined whether this can be achieved by decreasing the doese of the serum and by longer storage of the serum. The new serum is already in preparation so that further experiments could be embarked upon as soon as further persons suitable for the experiments are available, I therefore request you to detail persons to Natzweiler again for the purpose of inoculation. In order to obtain results which are as accurate as possible and can also be utilized for statistical purposes, 200 persons should be placed at our disposal for inoculation this time; it is also again necessary that they be as far as possible in the same physical condition as is met with amongst members of the armed forces. If imperative reasons should demand that 200 persons should not be transferred to Natzweiler for the experiments, the experiments could be carried out in a different concentration camp, although it would entsil great difficulties.
The overcoming of these difficulties would, if necessary, have to be accepted by the scientists employed -although the latter are at the same time very much tied down to the University Of Strassburg owing to their lecturing activities - as the results which will certainly be achieved are of the most far reaching importance for maintaining the health. is in the hands of the director of the Hygienic Institute of the Reich University of Strassburg, Prof, Dr. Haagen, Major in the Medical Corps and consulting hygienist to an air fleet, who was commissioned with this task by the Reich Marshal, the President of the Reich Research Council, In accordance with his instructions, Dr. Haagen has to report about his work to the chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services; in doing this he has to mention with whose support the work is carried out; that is first the Reich Research Council and secondly the SS. I request your decision as to which of the following is to be mentioned as the supporting authority of the SS;
"a) the Reichsfuehrer SS or "b) the SS Economic Administrative Head Office (WVHA) or "c) the Institute for practical scientific research for military purposes of the Waffen SS."
Are you still saying that Goering didn't commission Haagen ?
A. Yes, I am still maintaining that; and it says so here, "Reich Marshal President of the Reich Council". That does not in any way mean that Mr. Goering had knowledge of these various requests of which thousands and thousands were issued in his name and on his stationery. The various confidence expert branches were competent here.
Q. The Tribunal has this document before it so I am not going to argue with you on it.
THE PRESIDENT: Who signed the letter ? BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. The letter is signed by you, isn't it ?
A. Yes.
Q. And you mentioned Goering specifically, Reich Marshal, President of the Reich Research Councils. Now just look at the document No. 009 which refers to that letter of yours. It will be GB-587. It is page 3 of the document book. That deals with the question as to who is to have the honor of having taken the lead in these experiments. It is to the "Reichsfuehrer SS, Personal Staff". Whose signature is at the bottom of that letter ?
A The personal expert of the Reichsfuehrer, Dr. Brandt. 6 June 1944 subject: Production of a new kind of serum against spotted fever. It is to SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers. "Dear Comrade Sievers, Thanks very much for sending the copy of your letter of 19.5.44 to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. I have informed the Reichfuehrer SS, as the matter seemed to me to be sufficiently important. In answer to the question as to who is to be designated as the supporting authority of the SS, the Reichfuehrer SS said that both the SS Economic Administrative Office (WVHA) and the institute for scientific research of military value (Institut fuerwehrwissenschaftliche zweckforschung) should be mentioned. In addition, there is no objection to saying straight out that the Reichfuehrer SS has also personally supported the experiments. Heil Hitler: (initials) SS Standartenfuehrer." What was your connection with the experiment on sterilization? I will just remind you that there were three. First, With the fluid of a plant, and with x-rays, and lastly experiments by operation. Do you remember that?
A No, I don't remember them. I don't know them.
Q Do you know who was carrying them out?
A No, I don't know that. your Lordship's document book. Page 8 of the German document book. That is a letter to the Reich Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of German Folkdom, SS Himmler, Chief of the Police, Berlin. That was another arm of the SS that was interested in these medical experiments, was it not? Did you hear my question?
A Yes. It is completely wrong. The Reich Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of German Folkdom was not. experiments?
Q The letter has the initials of Himmler at the top, H.H. You are extremely familiar with them. The letter reads: "I beg you to give your attention to the following statements. I have asked Professor Hohm to hand this letter to you and have thus selected the direct path to you in order to avoid the slower official channels and to eliminate the possibility of an indiscretion, bearing in mind the enormous importance, under certain circumstances, of the idea submitted.
Prompted by the thought that the enemy must not only be conquered but exterminated, I feel obliged to submit the following to you as the Reich Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of German Folkdom. Dr. Madous is publishing the results of his research into sterilisation by medicaments. (I enclose both works). In reading this article, I was struck by the enormous importance of this medicament in the present struggle of our people. Should it be possible to produce as soon as possible as a result of this research, a medicament which, after a comparatively brief period, would cause an unnoticed sterilisation in individuals, we would have at our disposal a new and very effective weapon. The thought alone that the 3 million Bolsheviks now in German captivity could be sterilised, so that they would be available for work but precluded from propagation, opens up the most farreaching perspectives. Madous discovered that the juice of the plant Caladium Seguinum, taken orally or injected, produces after a certain time, particularly in the males of animals but also in the females, a lasting sterility. The illustrations which accompany the scientific work are convincing. Provided that the idea expressed by me meets with your approval, the following path could be followed: 1. Dr. Madous should not publish any more works of this kind (the enemy is listening too:) 2. Propagation of the plant (easily raised in greenhouses!). 3. Immediate experiments on humans (criminals;) in order to ascertain the dose and the duration of treatment. 4. The quickest possible discovery of the formula of the composition of the effective chemical body in order to 5. produce the same synthetically if possible. I myself, as a German doctor and a retired Lieutenant of the reserve in the medical corps of the German Armed Forces, undertake complete silence on the use to which the subject raised by me in this letter is to be put. Heil Hitler! Signed, Dr. Pokorny, Specialist on skin and veneral diseases, University Doctor of Medicine," Do you know that subsequent to that, greenhouses were erected and these plants were cultivated?
A No. I don't know that. In this connection I remember only the following. That this publication by Dr. Madous was transmitted for giving out his attitude on the basis of the rather remarkable suggestion to Dr. von Wuenzburg, who was a specialist on tropical plants, and he stated immediately that such a plant could not be raised and therefore could not be at our disposal but an attempt was made to grow them, was it not?
A I don't know whether it was tried to raise then. not a?
A That is not known to me either. It may be.
Q Apart from these experiments I especially mentioned, the "Ahnenerbe" was also used for political purposes, was it not?
A Political purposes? What do you mean by that?
Q Fifth column activity abroad, for instance? The penetration of scientific thought as a method of political influence.
Q Just look at the document, 1698-PS, will you? It is inserted before page 20 of the English document book. There is just one page of it. 1698 PS will be GB 589. It is an Annual Report dated 17 November 1944. It reads "The Heritage of the Ancestors. Germanic Scientific Mission Outpost Flanders, SS-Unterstuff (F) Dr. Augustin. Annual Report. The work is aimed as an intellectual deepening and broadening especially in the intellectual strata of Flanders and Walloony. In following the Germanic line which the SS alone represents, 1. The liberalistic-humanistic educational front must be invaded by winning over occupants of intellectual key-positions. 2. To work against the great German Mythos with the idea of the Great-Germanic Reich-community. 3. To promote the revival of the consciousness of German culture and German Folkdom with the exceedingly effective, though neutrally camouflaged means of political propaganda, science, in view of the arrogant French assumption of culture and the Flemish inferiority complex. Exactness must remain the principle for research and presentation, since objectively it does not exclude the Germanic intention." In the next paragraph it says "Thus strata of intelligence can be laid hold on, which were not open to official prrssand schooling-propaganda. But are occupying heretofore most insufficiently supervised influential key positions in the intellectual life of the country, Concerned are university-, college-, and scientific policies, promotion of student interests and granting of scholarships, i.e. selection for college and promotion of the talented, in which our work is to be inserted.
To seize, influence and obligate the occupants of intellectual key positions (college professors, associations of lawyers, educators, students, artists) is a task which in its propaganda, in the press and above all in connection with the security-service was a direct political significance andinfluence. Closest cooperation with the security-service has been maintained from the very start."
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Elwyn Jones, are you submitting that this is a c rime?
MR. ELWYN JONES: Yes, I am submitting that it is an essential part of this machinery. And its usages for political purposes in other countries.
Q The "Ahnenerbe" was a component part of the SS, was it not? in this matter, and in this question it is to be said that under the SS main office Dr. Augustin was charged as expert for this work and the continuation of this work. I cannot say that any activity like this is a 5th column activity, or any -Was it a department of the SS. Look at document 488 PS page 19 of the document book. That was a Himmler order with regard to the Ahnenerbe Stiftung. I want to draw your attention to the first paragraph. It reads, "I, the undersigned Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler hereby certify that I, the Research and Teaching Society "Das Ahnenerbe" (the SS Ancestral Heritage Research Organisation), and 2, the "Ahnenerbe-Stiftung", (Ancestral Heritage Institute) are parts of my personal staff and thus are departments of the SS." The funds of the Institute for Scientific research, they came from the Waffen SS funds, did they not? the following: Point 1, the so-called Ahnenerbe became an office in the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS in 1942. I testified that its structure was not affected by it. Funds of the Ahnenerbe were received through funds of the German Forschingsgemeinschaft, fees as subsidies, gifts of the industry. Waffen SS money and Wehrmacht SS money solely and alone, as I stated before, were put at the disposal of the institute for purely scientific experiments.
were all SS men, were they not? I want you to look at Document D-962, a roll, which is the last document I am putting to you. It will be GB 591. You see the name of Dr. Hans Brandt? And you see as you go down the whole of that list that with one exception they are all officers of the SS, are they not? drawn up. It included merely the SS leaders, and reference to the medical statu of the families and their children. I testified that parts, one-half, belonged to the SS but not all. connected with your work?
A They are not all scientists. The list also includes truck drivers.
Q They were all, with one exception, members of the SS, were they not?
A No. It includes also honorary members who were called for research only.
MR. ELWYN JONES: That is all.
WOLFRAM SIEVERS: May it please the Tribunal, I should like to give my explanation -
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better have the re-examination first.
RE-EXAMINATION BY DR. PELCKMANN: tung? Please be brief in your answers. ry on medical experiments and research on others? on purely scientific research as is set down in the constitution of the Ahnenerbe Stiftung. research tasks? and they were instituted above and beyond that. It had carried on more than one hundred expansive research projects. mentioned and the various institutes, was the Institute for Scientific Research for War Purposes included in this group?
A This was a special group within the Ahnenerbe. It may be seen that it was financed......
Q Please don't answer that now. I am now asking you if this was a branch. I will ask you further and you will have further opportunity to speak. You heard that the Institute for Scientific Research for War Purposes carried on experiments, is that correct? financed ? means and the Ahnenerbe Stiftung would give the money to the Ahnenerbe.
Q Then, where did the means come from ? ship dues, from Reichs money or better membership dues.
Q Which members ?
A Of the participating members. Any German could become a member of the Society for the Ahnenerbe. Where else did the money come from ? titute of Research for War Purposes. Where did this money come from ? to be set aside specifically according to the regulations which applied.
THE PRESIDENT: I have before me the commission evidence on this. This has all been stated in the commission and I have it before me.
DR. PELCKMANN: You are quite right, Your Lordship, but the prosecution just now raised the questions in such a way that the witness had no chance to give an exact reply.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think that you can make your examination shorter, in view of the fact that this evidence was all given before the commission and the Tribunal has this before them ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, My Lord. The members, or rather the collaborators and those who were charged with the research projects for the Ahnenerbe Stiftung, can you tell me what percentage of them belonged to the SS ?
THE WITNESS: Perhaps one-half. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Were the rest of them Party members? non-political ? refused admittance by the party and by the state.
Q Did Professor Seip belong to this group ?
in the University and I was responsible for his liberation from a concentration camp. and you have been confronted with only extracts. This includes 330 pages, however the extracts number only three pages. On the basis of this material, can you tell me if these matters which were discussed here supply only a fraction of the mass of the work carried on by the Ahnenerbe Stiftung ? Please be very brief.
A Yes, I can confirm that. That is why I am waiting to give my explanation in this connection. My notes were not saved for the purpose so that I could conceal things, but to tell of matters in the interests of clearing up the truth. and competent explanation from the fragments of your diary that were put to you in the court of your testimony and afford a comprehensive truthful statement without giving the entire contents of the diary ? size of the diary. You can see from the large size of the book, that which my work took up and the limited matters discussed here, When we consider the time in which they occurred, it is almost impossible to even discuss these matters and to make complete statements according to the truth. In my previous interrogation, I again and again referred to that fact. In my secret remarks and data so that I could give comprehensive statements, because of my political attitude, it was very close to my heart to put things right, but my requests were not granted and I put this in a written request on December 20th so that I could produce essential truths.
Q That is quite sufficient, witness. I should like to have just one example where a completely wrong picture must result if the witness is limited to put a fraction and fragment of his diary.
I should like to submit the entry page 103-14 April--1330-1515 Hours. Station Rascher; "Situation of work, further work, orders for provisional carrying on--Hatuf. Pletner introduced." This shows the work is taking place, there is future work and directives were then carried out. The things which followed are not shown in the extract. I should like to call the witness' attention to this and have him comment. Witness, please read this matter before you and tell us, whether from this diary entry, would follow that Dr. Pletner, as maintained by the prosecution, continued Rascher's work?
A From this we can see clearly that Dr. Pletner did not continue the experiments on human beings. On the basis of this remark, I could develop a comprehensive picture, however, I do not have the time at my disposal.
THE PRESIDENT: This is not necessary.
THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, I am not in the position to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the witness have the Document Book ? Why doesn't he read it ?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I shall read it.
Dr. Pletner worked with the Polygal Pruefung and that was the coagulating agent.
DR. PELCKMANN: Please give your comments later.
THE WITNESS: The continuance of the work of Polygal Pruefung and reports that the production of this coagulating agent had been secured for three months, that is, reports on the production. The first reports were to Schlachter and through Schlachter arrangements were to be made for the purchase of machines.
DR. PELCKMANN: Does it mean that Dr. Ploetner was brought into the administration and business matters of the production of Polygal Pruefung, the name of the coagulating agent?
THE WITNESS: You want a picture of the work Dr. Ploetner "Eingewiesen" brought in ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Dr. Rascher had started with the development of Polygal Pruefung, however, this experiment did not come up to expectations and did not cone up to expectations and did not meet the demands.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, your question was, "Does this inquiry show that Dr. Ploetner did not continue the experiments of Dr. Rascher?"
DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, the question was not just that, according to ay memory. I wanted to know something quite different from the witness. May I please clarify this point after the witness has read these remarks and his memory has been refreshed?
THE PRESIDENT: It is my recollection and the recollection of the other members of the Tribunal that the question that the question you put was: "Does not the entry in your diary show that Dr. Ploetner did not carry on the work of Dr. Rascher?" That is the question which you put. We want the answer to it and no other.
DR. PELCKMANN: Then, I did not express myself correctly, your Lordship. I wanted to know if after you read this entry, your memory was refreshed as to the happenings at the time?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
DR. PELCKMANN: Please describe them.
THE PRESIDENT: In the first place you realize, or you should realize, that the object of re-examination is to make clear or to contradict anything which has been put in cross-examination, and that is the only purpose of re-examination. In the second place, the Tribunal does not assume from the fact that the witness has been cross-examined to show that certain brutal and illegal experiments were made by this institution, that the institution did nothing else and we do not propose to sit here for a prolonged time to hear everything else that this institution did. The only object of your redirect examination should be to contradict the fact that illegal experiments were made, or to clear up any doubts which might arise on those illegal experiments, not to show us that they did other things. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Witness, after Rasher's arrest, according to your knowledge, were these further inhuman experiments carried on?
Q Nothing?
A No. Dr. Ploetner, as I have already testified, expressly refused to do that. other inhuman experiments? Purposes, into which I had insight, no. for war purposes work, What personalities of the SS had insight into these experiments? Himmler personally, and there were very few people.
Q About how many might there have been? Five or ten don't matter, really, you know.
Q Did these directives have the protection of Secrecy? or Top Secrecy for one part by the Geheime Reichsach? us whether you would consider it possible that the mass of the SS membership know about those matters? have known about them. experiments carried on by Rasher, was quite indignant and horrified at the fact that anything like that could happen. Do you recall anything like that personally?
A Yes, for I had to report personally to him on this matter. He was extraordinarily wrought up at this conversation and mentioned things which he had learned in connection with the arrest of Rasher, matters which upset him very, very deeply and in his excitement he began to accuse me and he was quite surprised that Himmler had the closest personal connection to Rasher direct and that all directives had gone directly from Himmler himself.
Q That is quite sufficient. Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, can you conclude the observation you want to make in five minutes?
THE WITNESS: I do not no any longer than that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, go on then.
THE WITNESS: In the cross-examination I was accused of the fact that I personally had no misgivings whatsoever regarding these experiments on human beings. However, I must contradict this most energetically. The conflict of my conscience was extremely large and was not appeased. In the beginning, because of assurance which I had received from Himmler, therefore I spoke with the leader of my secret branch, with the result that a further refusal would have cost me my head. An open demonstration was the only thing that was left. And secondly, the people who were sent there would not have been protected in any way, nor they would not have been saved.
This work would have been carried through one way or another in any event. done, would not have dared. Wherever possible, through silent sabotage, I prevented those things which possibly could be prevented. My repeated efforts on the basis of my secret data, remarks and reports, which are present to the amount of hundreds of pages, as Dr. Pelckmann has shown, was not in vain. Even now, time does not permit me to give a further and comprehensive picture of the action and to give the background. I personally refused and rejected these experiments. I did not permit them. I played the role as a man at a University does, who quite in a like manner had to assist everyone in the administrative and business affairs. Therefore, the question of my credibility and of my personal attitude has to be touched only once more, just as the documents submitted show that I said in my interrogations before the Commission, as Dr. Pelckmann has just now once more stated. If my credibility is to be doubted because of my illegal activities, then the leader of the secret branch, Dr. Hilger, who is in Nurnberg, can be at your disposal, I thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.)
MR. ELWYN JONES: I have three brief documents to put in on the SS case. The first is the document 4043-PS, which I hand to the Polish delegation, to be GB-592. It sets out the names of the 846 Polish priests and monies and the Polish clergy murdered at Dachau concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that a state report?
MR. ELWYN JONES: An affidavit by a Polish priest, attaching the names of the priests to his statements, the names appearing in a Polish publication, a Polish newspaper, Polska Prodena. priest, giving the following statement. I am wrong in saying that it is a statement on oath; but it does attach a list of the priests which was published in the Catholic weekly, Polska Prodena. If the Tribunal is uneasy about the document, I shan't press it. I am asked by the Polish delegation to submit it. GB-492, in place of the last document, is an order from Himmler to the Higher SS and Police Chief, Ukraine, Kiev, dated the 7th of September, 1943. It reads:
"Dear Frutzmann, Infantry general stapf has special orders with regard to the Donetz area. Get in touch with him immediately. I order you to cooperate as much as you can. The aim to be achieved is that when areas in the Ukraine are evacuated, not a human being, hot a single head of cattle, not a hundredweight of cereals and not a railway line remain behind; that not a house remains standing; not a mine is available which is not destroyed for years to come, that then is not a well which is not poisoned. The enemy must really find completely burnt and destroyed land. Discuss these things with Stampf straight away and do your absolute best. Heil Hitler, Yours, Himmler."
There is a note attached to it: "SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Berger has received the copy with the request that the Reich Minister for the East be informed." There are copies to the Chief of the Regular police, Chief of the Security Police and SD, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Berger, Chief of the Partisan-combatting units, copies sent with a request that they be noted.
THE PRESIDENT: Who was the Reich Minister at the time?
MR. ELWYN JONES: As I understand it, My Lord, it was Rosenberg. That is an instruction of Himmler dated the 10th of July, 1943, to the chief of units for combatting partisans, the higher SS and police chiefs in the Ukraine, higher SS and police chiefs in Russia, Central Sector.
The first paragraph: "The Fuehrer has decided that the -whole population has to be evacuated from partisan-ridden territories of the northern Ukraine and of the Central Russian sector."
"2. The whole male population fit for work will be directed to the Reich Commissar for the employment of labor according to regulations which are yet to be laid down but under the condition of PW's.
#3. The female population will be directed to the Reich Commissar for the Employment of Labor for work in the Reich.
"4. Part of the female population and all children who have no parents will be sent to our reception centers.
"5. The evacuated territories are to be taken over and run by the Higher SS and Police Chiefs, as much as possible in accordance with an arrangement still to be made with the Reich Minister of Food and with the Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. They are to be planted partly with Kok-Sagys and as far as possible agricultural use is to be made of them. The camps for children are to be established on the edge of these territories in order that the children may be available as labor for the cultivation of Kok-Sagys and for agriculture.
"Final proposals are to be submitted to me as soon as possible.
(Signed) H. Himmler."
DR. PELCKMANN: Just one minute.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Pelckmann.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I put a formal question relating to this? Are the documents put to the witness?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has some questions to put to the witness.
DR. PELCKMANN: If these documents are not put to the witness, then I should like to object to their being used for the old reason which I have already given, that in the submission of evidence the Prosecution is terminated.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already ruled that new documents may be put in in this way.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I beg to be permitted to put one question to this witness in order to clear up the name which he has used.
Witness, you have mentioned the Institute for Experiment. Is that the entire name of that institute? Will you give the entire and complete name?
THE WITNESS: The institute for the purpose of making experiments of a military nature, run by the Waffen SS and the police. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): inmates from the concentration camps. Who in the Luftwaffe made that contact?
A I didn't say that by Himmler's orders the Air Force was attacking concentration camps, no.
Q Wait, listen to the question. I didn't suggest that you said that. I said that you said that someone in the Luftwaffe had made a contact with Himmler in order to get inmates from the concentration camps. Did you say that?
A No, I didn't say that either. Yes, Dr. Grawitz, the Reich Medical Chief officer of the SS, informed me that the Air Force, though I don't know which department of it, had applied for the seaworthiness experiments to be carried out and that they had with reason applied for these at their disposal.
Q You mentioned the name of General Milch in your testimony. What connection, if any, did General Milch have with any of these experiments? here and also the experiments which in 1941 were started and carried out by medical officers of the Air Force, that is to say, Professor Holzloemner, staff medical officer for Russia, Professor Hascher, and a third one who was working for the Aeronautical Experiment Institute at Adelshof but his name I have forgotten.