Q. Through whom was the connection with the Navy maintained in connection with these scientific experiments?
A. That I don't know.
Q. And the Army?
A. That I don't know either.
Q. You see, you were the Director of this institute for scientific research for war purposes. You must have had liaison with each of the arms of the services, didn't you?
A. The connections between the Luftwaffe matters were carried on through Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff to General Milch.
Q. The Luftwaffe surgeon working on these Rascher experiments was Weltz, wasn't he? W-e-l-t-z, Oberfeldarzt of the Luftwaffe? That is so, isn't it?
A. That may be. Several gentlemen were mentioned whom I do not know. Letters were written also on the order of Rascher. They went through official channels and they were addressed to officials. But without data I can not tell you; I deposed these matters last year already.
Q. Does the name Dr. Holzloehner convey anything to you? He signed the report on the Schilling experiments.
A. Yes.
Q. He was Professor of Physiology of the Medical School at the University of Kiel, wasn't he?
A. Yes. Before the Commission I mentioned that Professor Holzloehner worked, together with Dr. Rascher, at the experiments in Dachau.
Q. Was he the representative of the Navy in these experiments?
A. He was an Air Force doctor.
Q. Do you remember the experiments that were carried out for making sea water drinkable?
A. Yes, I heard of them.
Q. They took place -- they started in May of 1044, didn't they?
A. Yes. Yes, that may be.
Q. And you remember that you attended a conference on the 20th of May 1944, in the Air Ministry, to which members of the Navy and Luftwaffe were invited; you remember that occasion?
A. I do not remember any conference in the Air ministry.
Q. Do you remember a conference anywhere else where you had a discussion on these experiments to make sea water drinkable?
A. Yes. Here we are concerned with Dr. Grawtiz, Reichsartz SS, and in this connection, I must explain that after the arrest of Rascher, his successor, Dr. Ploetner, refused to carry through experiments on human beings. Only after the arrest of Rascher things came to light as to just how cruelly and exceeding his orders Rascher had worked. Himmler explained -
Q. I beg your pardon. I will test you on that in a moment, but I just want you to try to apply your mind on making sea water drinkable. Do you remember that there was a conference in which representatives of the Air Force and of the Navy attended? That is all I want you to dral with at the moment. You can give your explanation later.
A. I have already said I do recall that a conference with Dr. Grawtiz took place and later on a confernece at Dachau with gentlemen of the Luftwaffe. Whether gentlemen of the Navy were present at that, I don't recall.
Q. But I want you to try to remembr, because it is important you see. These were experiments on sea wayer. One would assume that the that the Navy would be interested. They were interested, and they sert a representative, didn't they?
A. I don't believe that a representative of the Navy was present.
Q. Do you know Dr. Laurens who was connected with U-boats at Kiel L-a-u-r-e-n-s?
A. No, I don't know him.
Q. Was it decided, in connection with these sea water experiments, to use gypsies for the purpose of experiments?
A. In this connection, I must give you the explanation that I started to give a little bit earlier, because this is the decisive point. Dr. Ploetner refused to carry out experiements on human beings and Himmler did not demand this of him. Grawtiz received the order to devote himself to these matters. Therefore, the readiness and willing ness, that is the agreement on their position had to be had if experiments on human beings were to be conducted. Grawtiz said that the Luftwaffe, and particularly a professor from Vienna, had put the request that inmates should be put at their disposal and in this connection gypsies may have been mentioned in order to talk about the drinkability of sea water. As to the details, I can not tell you, but at that time it was ordered that the chemical and physiological experiments be carried through, and for these purposes, in the institute headed by Dr. May, for a period of three weeks, two rooms were to be put ready in which these Luftwaffe physicians could work. As far as these experiments are concerned -
Q. You had a staff working in Dachau on these experiments consisting of a supervisor, three medical chemists, one female assistant, and three non-commissioned officers, didn't you, in connection with these sea water experiments for Grawtiz?
A. Yes, that may be. That was under the supervision of Frawitz and his directives, but the institution of which I never learned anything. Our rooms, were just confiscated but everything else was taken care of by Grawitz. I do not know who worked there or whether they were personnel of the SS.
Q. Why was this staff working in Dachau? Why was Dachau chosen as the place for the scientific experiments of making seawater drinkable? It was because, you had the human guinea pigs there, wasn't it?
A. I hare already said that the Luftwaffe contacted Himmler for the purpose of getting inmates for these experiments, and therefore Dachau was selected.
Q. I want you now to go back to your diary, page 30 of the British document book, My Lord. You will see an entry for the 14th of April, "Political Department about escape of Pacholegg". This prisoner Pacholegg escaped, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you go to the Political Department about him?
A. For, toward the end of the year, together with Rascher and Pacholegg I was at Vorarlberg and I had been accused of aiding the escape of a prisoner. We are dealing here with the matter of arrest and I knew what the consequences would have been if Rascher suspected that I had aided the escape of the prisoners.
Q. You must have been extremely anxious when Pachelogg escaped because he knew a lot of the details about your work, didn't he? You must have been most anxious to secure his recapture.
A. At that moment I was worried about myself for it would not be hard to imagine what would have happened if Rascher knew about what had happened.
Q. If you look at the entry for the 23rd of May, you will see that you had a conference with the Reichsarzt SS Grawits, Poppendick, and Ploetner. Then you had "Division as to the work of Dr. Schilling's". Then, in the afternoon, you had a second conference with Ploetner. That was about these experiments to make seawater drinkable, wasn't it?
A. No, we are here concerned with the matter of Ploetner who complained about the work carried on by Schilling and said that he could not continue working aby longer as he was a member of the Waffen SS.
Q. You yourself must have been feeling pangs of conscience about the use of inmates because your military situation was rather delicate, wasn't it?
A. I did not have a conflict of conscience at that late date, but much sooner than that, and because of the documents which are being submitted now and the accusations which were raised against me at that time, I am forced to give a confession and I should like to make some statements, and I ask to be heard before the High Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you may say anything you wish in that regard.
MR. ELWYN JONES: I would like to say that I have some other questions which I would like to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: You may.
MR. ELWYN JONES: It might be to the advantage of the Tribunal if I asked him about a few other matters and then perhaps we could return to his statement, however, if your Lordship wishes, I would be perfectly willing to let the witness make his statement now if he wishes.
THE PRESIDENT: Let him make it now, then.
MR. ELWYN JONES: If your Lordship pleases. Then, witness, will you make your confession to the Tribunal?
THE WITNESS: Before the Commission of 27 June, in reply to questions, I had to answer and give certain statements; and I was repeatedly asked to be briefed. Because of that I had to limit myself to the facts only and my personal attitude was not stated. As I have seen the consequences that were brought about as to my credibility which was doubted, it was proposed that I personally participated in these incriminating experiments and did not wish to tell the truth. Therefore, in order to clear matters, I must testify, myself, personally.
resistance movement and because of this function in the Ahnenerbe, there was quite a good deal of chances to work illegally. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. When you say "resistance movement", I did not quite understand you. What was the "resistance movement" that you were leading?
A. In the secret organization of Dr. Hilfer, who was the head of the movement in connection with the 20th of July in which he was arrested by the Gestapo and put in prison. Therefore, I worked against the experiments. Finally, this had the consequence that Himmler, as is seen from the decree, declared that resistance against these experiments was high treason and execution was to follow. Among other things, he told me that he was going to carry the full responsibility for those experiments, and apart from that experiments on human beings had taken place repeatedly in medical research. These experiments carried out in 1900 on human beings . . .
MR. ELWYN JONES: I do not know if the Tribunal wants to hear more of this conversation. It seems to me to be more of an avoidance than a confession and I have numerous matters to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Elwyn Jones, the Tribunal thinks you better go on with your cross-examination. If the witness wants to add something at the end he may do so. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Now, just look back again at your diary. On 27 June you had a conference with SS Stabsfuehrer Dr. Brandt and SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Berg on the "creating of a scientific research station in a concentration camp. Information about conference with SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl." That was on 27 June 1944, you know. On 25 July, you had a conference with "SS Stabsfuehrer Maurer, Oranienburg, about the use of inmates for scientific purposes." That was when you were leading the resistance movement. On 26 July with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Fischer by phone. "Order in accordance with conference with SS Stafsfuehrer Maurer, dated July 25, 1944, to journey fastest through all concentration camps in order to fix finally the persons".
"Proceeding of research of SS Sturmbannfuehrer Prof. Dr. Hirt. Revewed release of Staff Surgeon Dr. Wimmer for duty and setting aside of the Chemist, SS Obersturmfuehrer Martinek in accordance with letter of October 6, 1944".
On 23 October, you were having a conference with Poppendieck. On that day you record in your diary, "Taking over of biological research by SS Stabsfuehrer Dr. Ploetner in Dachau." of blood?
A. No.
Q. Did you take part in any such experiments?
A. I never participated in these experiments, for I am a research man, but I do remember that Dr. Ploetner refused to carry out experiments on human beings and the text of this means . . .
Q. I am sorry to interrupt you, but I would like you to say what you personally knew about these experiments. What was the form of them, for instance?
A. The method of quickening of coagulation of blood took place in Inssbruck under Prof. Breitner, and finally, in Vienna under Professor Decks leadership.
Q. What happened was that bullets were fired into prisoners of a concentration camp and experiments were carried on as to how fast they could stop the flow of blood. That was the form of the experiments, wasn't it?
A. These experiments were carried on by Rascher and not by Professor Ploetner, and they came to light only after Rascher's arrest.
Q. I am not concerned with who carried them out. You know the form of the experiments and you know that the form was that bullets were fired into the prisoners and afterwards efforts were made to stop the flow of blood, isn't that true?
A. That only came to light after Rascher's arrest.
Q. Just look at document No. 065, page 8 of the British document book.
That will become GB-583, and it is an affidavit of Oswald Pohl of the WVHA, and I want to direct your attention to paragraph 4, page 11 of the German document book, in which he gives some testimony about you. I only want to point out a few things in paragraph 4.
"Sievers came to find out from me about the possibilities for manufacturing of medicine. I mentioned the Deutsche Heilmittel GMBH in Prague which belonged to the German plants, managed by Oberfuehrer Baier of my staff. I recommended Sievers to go to him. The medicine had been manufactured later in Schlachters (Black Forest). Sievers told me the following: The 'Ahnenerbe', whose manager was Sievers, had developed in Dachau a medicine which quickly brought coagulation of blood. It was enormously important for our army because it prevented continual bleeding. It was the result of experiments in Dachau during which a prisoner was fired upon. A prisoner in Dachau, a specialist in the field, took an important part in the discovery of this medicine."
Now, those facts are true, aren't the?
A. Yes, but the sense is not quite complete there. When this conference took place, Rascher had already been arrested for some time and it was known that he, himself, had carried on this experiment and I told Pohl quite extensively, for Dr. Breitner had worked and completed this medicine and expert opinion by Professor Breitner and Professor Denck and another doctor from Vienna had to be held first and the picture shown in this document is completely wrong.
Q. Rascher is dead. It is convenient to cast all the blame on to him, isn't it ?
A. Here we are concerned with clarifying facts and therefore I can say only those things which are ture and which I know exactly.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the experiments into the cause of contagious jaundice ?
A. No, I know nothing about that.
Q. I want you to look at document No. 010 page 4 of the English document Exhibit GB 584. That was a letter, as you see, from Grawitz to Himmler. It is dated the 1st of June 1943 and headed "Top Secret." Subject : into the cause of contagious jaundice."
THE PRESIDENT: What is the signature ? BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. That is the signature of Grawitz, is it not, the Reich Doctor SS and Police ?
A. Yes.
Q. "Reichsfuehrer : The Fuehrer's commissioner-general, SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt ..." Pausing there for a moment, he was the Reich Commissioner for Health and Sanitation, wasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. The Fuehrer's commissioner-General, SS Brigadifuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt called on me with request that I should assist him by placing prisoners at his disposal for research work into the cause of contagious jaundice which he was furthering considerably.
"The work has been carried out up to now by a medical captain, Dr. Dohmen, within the framework of the research place of the army medical inspectorate, with the participation of the Robert Koch Institute. It has up research workers, that contagious jaundice is not carried by bacteria but by a virus. In order to increase our knowledge, which is based up to now only on vaccination experiments from men to animals, the reverse way is now necessary, namely the vaccination of the cultivated virus germ into humans. One must reckon on cases of death.
"The therapeutic and above all the prophylatic results are naturally largely dependent on this last experimental step. 8 prisoners condemned to death would be required, if possible of fairly young age, within the prisoners' hospital of Sachsenhausen concentration camp. I respectfully ask for a decision. Reichsfuehrer, as to :
"1. Whether I may start the experiments in the prescribed form;
"2. Whether the experiments may be carried out in the Sachsenhause prisoners hospital by medical captain Dr. Dohmen himself.
"Although Herr Dohmen does not belong to the SS (he is an SA leader and a party member), I would recommend this as an exception in the interests of the continuity of the series of experiments and thus of the accuracy of the results.
"The practical importance of the question raised for our own troops, especially in Southern Russia, is shown by the fact that this illness has been very widespread in the past years, both amongst us in the Waffen SS and the police and in the Army, so that companies have been reduced by 60% for periods of up to 6 weeks." is signed by Grawitz. Grawitz was the vice president of the German Red Cross , wasn't he ?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to turn to the document No. 011 on page 5 of the British document book --- GB 585. That is the reply of Himmler to the letter of Grawitz.
It is dated the 16th of June 1943. "Subject : Research into the cause of infectious jaundice", and Himmler says:
"I give the permission for 8 criminals condemned to death in Auschwitz (8 Jews of the Polish resistance movement who have been condemned to death) to be used for the experiments.
"I agree to Dr. Dohmen carrying out these experiments as Sachsenhausen "Like you, I am of the opinion that a real combatting of infectious jaundice woued be of untold value."
And then it is signed by Himmler with a note at the bottom :"SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Berlin. Copy sent with a request that note be taken." the Waffen SS and for the army, weren't they ?
A. I am just learning about these things for the first time. These things are not known to me and I cannot see what connection I have wit them.
Q. I want you to deal next with your experiments into spptted fever vaccine. Perhaps you may be al little more familiar with the nature of those experiments. Have you knowledge of those ? Professor Haagen might give you a clue.
A. Yes, Professor Haagen did carry on vaccinations against spotted fever at the request of the camp where this disease was prevalent.
Q. Who delegated Haagen for this work ?
A. He was the hygienist at the University of Strassburg.
Q. But I asked you, who delegated him for this work and not what his qualifications were for it.
A. As far as I recall, these experiments were carried through by Haagen on order of the Sanitary Inspector of the Wehrmacht and of the Lutfwaffe
Q. He was commissioned by Goering, wasn't he ?
A. Who was responsible for the delegation on behalf of the Luftwaffe, that I don't know.
Q. Just look at your own letter on this subject, Nol 008, the first document in the English document book -- GB 586. It is headed "Institute for practical scientific research for military purposes", dated the 19th of May 1944.
That was after Rascher had been removed from the scene. It is to "SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS Pohl, Chief of the WVHA. Subject : Production of a new kind of spotted fever serum".
"Dear Obergruppenfuehrer :
"Following our application of 30/9/43, you gave your authorization on the 25th October 1943, for the carrying out of experiments with a view to producing a new kind of spotted fever serum and transferred 100 suitable prisoners to Natzweiler for this purpose. It has been possible to carry out the experiments very satisfactorily so far with the help of the Chief of Department D III, SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Dolling commissioned by you. It appears from the results of the report before us that it is possible not only to achieve an anti-toxical, but -what should be of special practical importance also a decided anti-infectional immunity with the help of this serum. Inoculation, however, still produces a lengthy fever reaction so that its introduction for the protective inoculation in its present form cannot be recommended at yet. Further research is being carried out now with a view to changing the serum in such a way as to produce only so weak a reaction that no considerable effect on the general well-being takes place while retaining its full effectiveness. It is to be examined whether this can be achieved by decreasing the doese of the serum and by longer storage of the serum. The new serum is already in preparation so that further experiments could be embarked upon as soon as further persons suitable for the experiments are available, I therefore request you to detail persons to Natzweiler again for the purpose of inoculation. In order to obtain results which are as accurate as possible and can also be utilized for statistical purposes, 200 persons should be placed at our disposal for inoculation this time; it is also again necessary that they be as far as possible in the same physical condition as is met with amongst members of the armed forces. If imperative reasons should demand that 200 persons should not be transferred to Natzweiler for the experiments, the experiments could be carried out in a different concentration camp, although it would entsil great difficulties.
The overcoming of these difficulties would, if necessary, have to be accepted by the scientists employed -although the latter are at the same time very much tied down to the University Of Strassburg owing to their lecturing activities - as the results which will certainly be achieved are of the most far reaching importance for maintaining the health. is in the hands of the director of the Hygienic Institute of the Reich University of Strassburg, Prof, Dr. Haagen, Major in the Medical Corps and consulting hygienist to an air fleet, who was commissioned with this task by the Reich Marshal, the President of the Reich Research Council, In accordance with his instructions, Dr. Haagen has to report about his work to the chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services; in doing this he has to mention with whose support the work is carried out; that is first the Reich Research Council and secondly the SS. I request your decision as to which of the following is to be mentioned as the supporting authority of the SS;
"a) the Reichsfuehrer SS or "b) the SS Economic Administrative Head Office (WVHA) or "c) the Institute for practical scientific research for military purposes of the Waffen SS."
Are you still saying that Goering didn't commission Haagen ?
A. Yes, I am still maintaining that; and it says so here, "Reich Marshal President of the Reich Council". That does not in any way mean that Mr. Goering had knowledge of these various requests of which thousands and thousands were issued in his name and on his stationery. The various confidence expert branches were competent here.
Q. The Tribunal has this document before it so I am not going to argue with you on it.
THE PRESIDENT: Who signed the letter ? BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. The letter is signed by you, isn't it ?
A. Yes.
Q. And you mentioned Goering specifically, Reich Marshal, President of the Reich Research Councils. Now just look at the document No. 009 which refers to that letter of yours. It will be GB-587. It is page 3 of the document book. That deals with the question as to who is to have the honor of having taken the lead in these experiments. It is to the "Reichsfuehrer SS, Personal Staff". Whose signature is at the bottom of that letter ?
A The personal expert of the Reichsfuehrer, Dr. Brandt. 6 June 1944 subject: Production of a new kind of serum against spotted fever. It is to SS Standartenfuehrer Sievers. "Dear Comrade Sievers, Thanks very much for sending the copy of your letter of 19.5.44 to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. I have informed the Reichfuehrer SS, as the matter seemed to me to be sufficiently important. In answer to the question as to who is to be designated as the supporting authority of the SS, the Reichfuehrer SS said that both the SS Economic Administrative Office (WVHA) and the institute for scientific research of military value (Institut fuerwehrwissenschaftliche zweckforschung) should be mentioned. In addition, there is no objection to saying straight out that the Reichfuehrer SS has also personally supported the experiments. Heil Hitler: (initials) SS Standartenfuehrer." What was your connection with the experiment on sterilization? I will just remind you that there were three. First, With the fluid of a plant, and with x-rays, and lastly experiments by operation. Do you remember that?
A No, I don't remember them. I don't know them.
Q Do you know who was carrying them out?
A No, I don't know that. your Lordship's document book. Page 8 of the German document book. That is a letter to the Reich Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of German Folkdom, SS Himmler, Chief of the Police, Berlin. That was another arm of the SS that was interested in these medical experiments, was it not? Did you hear my question?
A Yes. It is completely wrong. The Reich Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of German Folkdom was not. experiments?
Q The letter has the initials of Himmler at the top, H.H. You are extremely familiar with them. The letter reads: "I beg you to give your attention to the following statements. I have asked Professor Hohm to hand this letter to you and have thus selected the direct path to you in order to avoid the slower official channels and to eliminate the possibility of an indiscretion, bearing in mind the enormous importance, under certain circumstances, of the idea submitted.
Prompted by the thought that the enemy must not only be conquered but exterminated, I feel obliged to submit the following to you as the Reich Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of German Folkdom. Dr. Madous is publishing the results of his research into sterilisation by medicaments. (I enclose both works). In reading this article, I was struck by the enormous importance of this medicament in the present struggle of our people. Should it be possible to produce as soon as possible as a result of this research, a medicament which, after a comparatively brief period, would cause an unnoticed sterilisation in individuals, we would have at our disposal a new and very effective weapon. The thought alone that the 3 million Bolsheviks now in German captivity could be sterilised, so that they would be available for work but precluded from propagation, opens up the most farreaching perspectives. Madous discovered that the juice of the plant Caladium Seguinum, taken orally or injected, produces after a certain time, particularly in the males of animals but also in the females, a lasting sterility. The illustrations which accompany the scientific work are convincing. Provided that the idea expressed by me meets with your approval, the following path could be followed: 1. Dr. Madous should not publish any more works of this kind (the enemy is listening too:) 2. Propagation of the plant (easily raised in greenhouses!). 3. Immediate experiments on humans (criminals;) in order to ascertain the dose and the duration of treatment. 4. The quickest possible discovery of the formula of the composition of the effective chemical body in order to 5. produce the same synthetically if possible. I myself, as a German doctor and a retired Lieutenant of the reserve in the medical corps of the German Armed Forces, undertake complete silence on the use to which the subject raised by me in this letter is to be put. Heil Hitler! Signed, Dr. Pokorny, Specialist on skin and veneral diseases, University Doctor of Medicine," Do you know that subsequent to that, greenhouses were erected and these plants were cultivated?
A No. I don't know that. In this connection I remember only the following. That this publication by Dr. Madous was transmitted for giving out his attitude on the basis of the rather remarkable suggestion to Dr. von Wuenzburg, who was a specialist on tropical plants, and he stated immediately that such a plant could not be raised and therefore could not be at our disposal but an attempt was made to grow them, was it not?
A I don't know whether it was tried to raise then. not a?
A That is not known to me either. It may be.
Q Apart from these experiments I especially mentioned, the "Ahnenerbe" was also used for political purposes, was it not?
A Political purposes? What do you mean by that?
Q Fifth column activity abroad, for instance? The penetration of scientific thought as a method of political influence.
Q Just look at the document, 1698-PS, will you? It is inserted before page 20 of the English document book. There is just one page of it. 1698 PS will be GB 589. It is an Annual Report dated 17 November 1944. It reads "The Heritage of the Ancestors. Germanic Scientific Mission Outpost Flanders, SS-Unterstuff (F) Dr. Augustin. Annual Report. The work is aimed as an intellectual deepening and broadening especially in the intellectual strata of Flanders and Walloony. In following the Germanic line which the SS alone represents, 1. The liberalistic-humanistic educational front must be invaded by winning over occupants of intellectual key-positions. 2. To work against the great German Mythos with the idea of the Great-Germanic Reich-community. 3. To promote the revival of the consciousness of German culture and German Folkdom with the exceedingly effective, though neutrally camouflaged means of political propaganda, science, in view of the arrogant French assumption of culture and the Flemish inferiority complex. Exactness must remain the principle for research and presentation, since objectively it does not exclude the Germanic intention." In the next paragraph it says "Thus strata of intelligence can be laid hold on, which were not open to official prrssand schooling-propaganda. But are occupying heretofore most insufficiently supervised influential key positions in the intellectual life of the country, Concerned are university-, college-, and scientific policies, promotion of student interests and granting of scholarships, i.e. selection for college and promotion of the talented, in which our work is to be inserted.
To seize, influence and obligate the occupants of intellectual key positions (college professors, associations of lawyers, educators, students, artists) is a task which in its propaganda, in the press and above all in connection with the security-service was a direct political significance andinfluence. Closest cooperation with the security-service has been maintained from the very start."
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Elwyn Jones, are you submitting that this is a c rime?
MR. ELWYN JONES: Yes, I am submitting that it is an essential part of this machinery. And its usages for political purposes in other countries.
Q The "Ahnenerbe" was a component part of the SS, was it not? in this matter, and in this question it is to be said that under the SS main office Dr. Augustin was charged as expert for this work and the continuation of this work. I cannot say that any activity like this is a 5th column activity, or any -Was it a department of the SS. Look at document 488 PS page 19 of the document book. That was a Himmler order with regard to the Ahnenerbe Stiftung. I want to draw your attention to the first paragraph. It reads, "I, the undersigned Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler hereby certify that I, the Research and Teaching Society "Das Ahnenerbe" (the SS Ancestral Heritage Research Organisation), and 2, the "Ahnenerbe-Stiftung", (Ancestral Heritage Institute) are parts of my personal staff and thus are departments of the SS." The funds of the Institute for Scientific research, they came from the Waffen SS funds, did they not? the following: Point 1, the so-called Ahnenerbe became an office in the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS in 1942. I testified that its structure was not affected by it. Funds of the Ahnenerbe were received through funds of the German Forschingsgemeinschaft, fees as subsidies, gifts of the industry. Waffen SS money and Wehrmacht SS money solely and alone, as I stated before, were put at the disposal of the institute for purely scientific experiments.
were all SS men, were they not? I want you to look at Document D-962, a roll, which is the last document I am putting to you. It will be GB 591. You see the name of Dr. Hans Brandt? And you see as you go down the whole of that list that with one exception they are all officers of the SS, are they not? drawn up. It included merely the SS leaders, and reference to the medical statu of the families and their children. I testified that parts, one-half, belonged to the SS but not all. connected with your work?
A They are not all scientists. The list also includes truck drivers.
Q They were all, with one exception, members of the SS, were they not?
A No. It includes also honorary members who were called for research only.
MR. ELWYN JONES: That is all.
WOLFRAM SIEVERS: May it please the Tribunal, I should like to give my explanation -
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better have the re-examination first.
RE-EXAMINATION BY DR. PELCKMANN: tung? Please be brief in your answers. ry on medical experiments and research on others? on purely scientific research as is set down in the constitution of the Ahnenerbe Stiftung. research tasks? and they were instituted above and beyond that. It had carried on more than one hundred expansive research projects. mentioned and the various institutes, was the Institute for Scientific Research for War Purposes included in this group?
A This was a special group within the Ahnenerbe. It may be seen that it was financed......
Q Please don't answer that now. I am now asking you if this was a branch. I will ask you further and you will have further opportunity to speak. You heard that the Institute for Scientific Research for War Purposes carried on experiments, is that correct? financed ? means and the Ahnenerbe Stiftung would give the money to the Ahnenerbe.
Q Then, where did the means come from ? ship dues, from Reichs money or better membership dues.