explaining certain difficulties that you were getting with the Natzweiler concentration camp?
A I don't have the document before no.
Q Don't worry yourself. Just try to answer my question. Don't won whether you have the document before you. I appreciate it will be embarrass if it is found. Just answer my question. Did you write to Brandt in connection with these Lost experiments, describing difficulties you were having from the concentration camp?
A I don't remember in particular which difficulties we were concerned with. It may be that I wrote him on this matter, yes. experiments, will you? things on the basis of remarks and reports came to me in that way, and I transmitted these things without being able to recall those matters in particular, because these were single and isolated cases among the mass and wealth of material in my work, so that details could no longer remain in my memory after this length of time.
Q I appreciate the mass of work you were involved in. I have four or five other experiments in murder to draw your attention to. But just look at the document No. 092, Page 19 of Your Lordship's Document Book, GB 58. That is a letter from Brandt to you. It is addressed to you, SS-Standarten Fuehrer Sievers, the Ahnenerbe Society, dated 3 December 1942. "I have your note of 3 November 1942 again in front of me today. At the time I could only speak to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl very shortly. If I remember correctly, he ever sent me a letter informing me that he would have the deficiencies which you described taken care of, but I did not have time to enumerate them in detail. I had just received your letter the same morning on which I went to see SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Therefore, it was impossible for me to read over it beforehand. I only remembered what you had told me during our last conversation. It if should be necessary for me to take this matter up again, will you please let me know." Now, what were those deficiencies which you has described in your note to Pohl?
Just try to remember them.
A I can't tell you what we were concerned with in particular here. Please show me the remark.
Q Can you not recall at all what the difficulty was? Was it connected with the payment for the prisoners to be experimented on?
A I don't recall that. as far as April, 1944, didn't they?
A I can't tell you that from memory.
Q Try to recall. Didn't they go on until April 1944? Just look at Document No, 015. You are being totally uncooperative. That would be GB 581. That is another of your letters to the Reichsfuehrer-SS. On Page 6 of your Document Book, My Lord. To the Reichsfuehrer-SS Personal Staff Department A. It is dated the 11th of April, 1944. Top secret. It is from you to Brandt. Subject: Fuehrer's order of 1 March 1944.
"Dear Comrade Brandt, In accordance with orders, I got in touch with SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt and informed him in Beelitz on the 31st March about the research work conducted by Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt. On this occasion I handed to him the plan for the treatment of L.damage --" That is Lost damage, is it not, Witness?
Q "-- worked out by Professor Hirt, a copy of which I enclose for you for presentation to the Reichsfuehrer SS if the occasion should arise. Professor Brandt tells me that he will be in Strassburg; in the first week in April and that he intends to discuss details with Professor Hirt then." Now, you say that those experiments on human beings with this poison Lost went on right through to 1944, didn't they?
A No, it isn't true that way. This letter may be traced to the following: Professor Brandt was made General Commissar for materials of combat, I received a copy of this report appointing him, with instructions that from now on, since his appointment had taken place, I should cause Hirt to talk with Brandt. Hirt told me that for that reason he could not travel to Mr. Brandt at Beelitz. Therefore, at the request of Hirt, I traveled to see Brandt.
Q All right, witness. I want to turn now to another aspect of your work, the Rascher experiments. You remember telling me that you had no insight into the Rascher experiments. Document 3546 PS. It has already been marked Exhibit GB 551. Your Lordship will find a few extracts from it at Page 29 of the Document Book. witness, I have made certain extracts from your diary, and it might be convenient for you to follow those extracts, and if you want to check then against your own diary, you will be able to do so. They show how in that year you were intimately connected with Rascher and all these other murderers. The first entry is for the 6 January, 1830 hours, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher. Paragraph (c) Letter from RFSS to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl about assistance for scientific research work. Rooms for carrying through of freezing experiments. They were at Dachau, weren't they? the Commission interrogations, they were not carried through. Here we deal with the notes about a conversation with Rascher in which he was reporting on these matters. not carried through? experiment, that they would have to be carried through in a locality where extreme temperatures were required, aid these experiments did not take place. carried cut, didn't you, in Dachau? You wherein Dachau from time to time? experiments by the Luftwaffe and the freezing experiments which were to be Carried out later on because of freezing conditions in the East. Here in the year 1944 we are concerned with the experiments in freezing in connection with -
Q Which are the freezing experiments that you used to watch?
Q Did you see any of them being carried on? Rascher, was to work on this problem so that a solution could be brought about and on this occasion I was present once.
Q Now we will go to the Document 3546 PS, a little further. I have selected some random entries from it to show your close association with this matter. "23 January, 1130 hours, Lecture to RFSS together with Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Brandt. 1. We shall receive the reports of Professor Schilling Now, Professor Schilling is the man who has been sentenced to death for his malaria experiments at Dachau, isn't he?
Q He was also part of your team of scientists, wasn't he?
Q You only received his reports, that is all; was it? me at all. And Himmler on this occasion at this meeting explained that Schilling had received immunity symptoms which attracted attention. This report was to be given to us so that the Entomology Institute could receive cognizance of the fact of these things that were being carried out under the leadership of Dr. Mai in malaria experiments on the anopheles mosquito.
Q "We will go on to the next entry in the diary, the 28th of January. Your own diary has a daily entry of all the details, hit here is another extra "Cooperation with Institute R, Dachau". That is Rascher's institute at Dacha is it not?
Q Then the 29th of January, "With Hauptsturmfuehrer Rascher and Dr. Pacholegg to Dahlem." Who was Dr. Pacholegg?
A Dr. Pacholegg was an inmate when Rascher was using to work with him.
Q You knew him quite well yourself, I take it?
Q He was present at some of the experiments that you watched, wasn't he?
bleeding -
Q Just answer my question. Dr. Pacholegg was present at some of the experiments which you watched, was has not?
A He was a co-worker of Rascher's. He worked with him. Whether he was there all the time, I don't know.
Q If you refuse to answer my question I shall not put it again. We will continue further in your diary. Second of February, CA-Work experiments. First pictures of living cancer cells. 21. Protectional vaccination for spotted fever by Professor Haagen. The protectional vaccination for spotted fever in Natzweiler goes on with good results.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 9 August 1946 at 1000 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: I think I said -- at any rate, I will say it again -that the Tribunal will sit in open session tomorrow until one o'clock. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Witness, yesterday I was taking you through extracts of your diary for 1944. Have you a copy of these extracts in your possession at the moment? I am referring to the document 3546-PS, which is GB551.
MR. ELWYN JONES: I want to makes it clear, My Lord, that the extracts which are in this exhibit 3516-PS are only sporadic extracts taken from the diary relating to the medical experiments. There are numerous other entries in the diary referring to other aspects of the activity of the "Ahnenerbe" BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. I had taken you yesterday to the 2nd of February. Now, will you look at the entries for the 22nd of February ? You will see that you had a conference with Dr. May, and there is an entry relating to cooperation with Dr. Ploetner and Professor Schilling. What work was Dr. Ploetner on at that time ?
A. I cannot hear the German translation I am sorry.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you heard the question ?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Dr. Ploetner was active together with Dr. Schilling. This matter refers to the report from Himmler dated the 23rd of January , according to which the reports of Schilling's were to be passed along to Dr. May. These reports actually were not passed along, for Schilling refused any collaboration with Dr. May.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Now turn to the entry for the 25th of February.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it a separate document, or is it in the book?
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is in the document book, My Lord, Exhibit 3546 PS. BY M. ELWYN JONES:
Q. On the 25th of February you make an entry regarding the order of the RFSS about Ms work in Dachau in cooperation with Dr. Rascher.
"The 22nd of March,. 1830 to 2100 hours, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher preparation of the freezing experiments for the winter half-year 1944 to 1945".
You were at Dachau with Rascher on that date, were you not ?
A. Here we are concerned with these experiments which, as I already testified to before the Commission, I wanted to have carried through because of freezing conditions encountered in the East. These conditions, however, could not be carried through at Dachau. This fact was reported to Himmler, and he ordered that they were to be carried through during the following winter half-year. However, they were never carried through, for at that time Rascher had, been arrested, in April.
Q. For whom were you carrying through these experiments ? Was it for the army ?
A. These experiments were to be carried through with the Reichsartz SS Grawitz.
Q. He was the SS Chief Surgeon, was he not -- Grawitz ?
A. Yes.
Q. And his experiments were for the benefit of the Waffen SS, were they ?
A. Grawitz personally refused the carrying through of these experiments by current negotiations. They were not carried through in the winter of 193 1935, as Himmler had wished; but as Grawitz had wanted, if these experiment were to be carried through, Rascher was to go to the front and work in the hospitals in the front directly.
Q. You have not answered my question, witness. For whom were these experiments being carried out ? Was is for the Waffen SS ?
A. The order for the execution of these experiments was not on hand. The collaboration existed between the SS and the Wehrmacht, but I do not know the particulars.
Q. If you look at the next entry, 14th of April, Station Raschers; situa tion of work : Further work; orders for provisional carrying on; Hauptsturmfuehrer Ploetner introduced.
Now, that was the time when Rascher was arrested, was it not?
A. Yes, after Rascher had been arrested.
Q. And Hauptsturmfuehrer Ploetner succeeded Rascher, did he not?
A. Yes.
Q. The experiments were continued at Dachau and elsewhere? The removal of Rascher made no difference ?
A. Those were works of a different kind from those carried out by Rascher, completely different.
Q. You had attended some of the Rascher experiments, had you not?
A. I was at Dachau several times, yes.
Q. And you were there with Himmler on several occasions when Rascher was carrying out his experiments, were you not?
A. No, never did I go with Himmler together with Rascher at Dachau.
Q. I want you to look at the document 24-28-PS, which will be GB-582, which is an affidavit of Dr. Pacholegg of whom you spoke yesterday.
MR. ELWYN JONES: Your Lordship will find it at Page 25 of the English document book, Page 32 of the German document book. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. You will see this question and answer put to Pacholegg after he had described the experiments of the throwing of victims into cold water and of the experiments on prostitutes to restore the warmth of these people:
"Question: How was present at such an experiment?
"Answer: Heinrich Himmler and his staff generally witnessed these important experiments here at Dachau, or any new experiment. Standartenfuehrer Sievers was always present with Himmler."
A. That is not true.
Q. Those experiments were hideous experiments, weren't they, Witness?
A. You mentioned these experiments and I have already told you that I wasn't present at those experiments, that is when Himmler was there.
Q. Were you ever present when Himmler was not there?
A. I saw two experiments, one as I have already mentioned yesterday, an experiment which I saw in part when Dr. Rascher was present, and another experiment in the low pressure chamber.
Q. I want you to turn to Page 30 of the German document book, Page 22 of the English document book, so that your memory may be refreshed as to what sort of suffering these victims had to suffer under these so-called low pressure experiments.
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is in the last answer on Page 22 of the English document book, My Lord.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Pacholegg states: "There I have personally seen, through the observation window of a chamber, when a prisoner inside would stand in a vacuum until his lungs ruptured. Some experiments gave men such pressure in their heads that they would go mad and pull out their hair in an effort to relieve the pressure. They would tear their heads and faces with their fingers and mails in an attempt to maim themselves in their madness. They would beat the walls with their hands and head and scream in an effort to relieve pressure on their eardrums. These cases of extremes of vacuums generally ended in the death of the subject. An extreme experiments was so certain to result in death that in many instances the chamber was used for routine execution purposes rather than experiment. I have known Rascher experiments to subject a prisoner to vacuum conditions or extreme pressure conditions or combinations of both for as long as thirty minutes. The experiments were generally classified into two groups, one know as the living experiment and the other simply as the "X" experiment, which was a way of saying execution experiment." for the Luftwaffe, weren't they?
A. Here we are concerned with the low pressure experiments, and the method of carrying them through I know for the first time through the reading here. The experiment which I witnessed--
Q. Just answer the question. Those experiments of that type were being carried out for the Luftwaffe, weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the participation of Goering in these experiments?
A. That is unknown to me, for the experiments at Dachau started in the year 1941 and I only learned of them after they had already begun. The connections with the Luftwaffe were carried on through the sanitation inspection offices and whether Standartenfuehrer Goering was informed about these matters that I can not tell you.
Q. Through whom was the connection with the Navy maintained in connection with these scientific experiments?
A. That I don't know.
Q. And the Army?
A. That I don't know either.
Q. You see, you were the Director of this institute for scientific research for war purposes. You must have had liaison with each of the arms of the services, didn't you?
A. The connections between the Luftwaffe matters were carried on through Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff to General Milch.
Q. The Luftwaffe surgeon working on these Rascher experiments was Weltz, wasn't he? W-e-l-t-z, Oberfeldarzt of the Luftwaffe? That is so, isn't it?
A. That may be. Several gentlemen were mentioned whom I do not know. Letters were written also on the order of Rascher. They went through official channels and they were addressed to officials. But without data I can not tell you; I deposed these matters last year already.
Q. Does the name Dr. Holzloehner convey anything to you? He signed the report on the Schilling experiments.
A. Yes.
Q. He was Professor of Physiology of the Medical School at the University of Kiel, wasn't he?
A. Yes. Before the Commission I mentioned that Professor Holzloehner worked, together with Dr. Rascher, at the experiments in Dachau.
Q. Was he the representative of the Navy in these experiments?
A. He was an Air Force doctor.
Q. Do you remember the experiments that were carried out for making sea water drinkable?
A. Yes, I heard of them.
Q. They took place -- they started in May of 1044, didn't they?
A. Yes. Yes, that may be.
Q. And you remember that you attended a conference on the 20th of May 1944, in the Air Ministry, to which members of the Navy and Luftwaffe were invited; you remember that occasion?
A. I do not remember any conference in the Air ministry.
Q. Do you remember a conference anywhere else where you had a discussion on these experiments to make sea water drinkable?
A. Yes. Here we are concerned with Dr. Grawtiz, Reichsartz SS, and in this connection, I must explain that after the arrest of Rascher, his successor, Dr. Ploetner, refused to carry through experiments on human beings. Only after the arrest of Rascher things came to light as to just how cruelly and exceeding his orders Rascher had worked. Himmler explained -
Q. I beg your pardon. I will test you on that in a moment, but I just want you to try to apply your mind on making sea water drinkable. Do you remember that there was a conference in which representatives of the Air Force and of the Navy attended? That is all I want you to dral with at the moment. You can give your explanation later.
A. I have already said I do recall that a conference with Dr. Grawtiz took place and later on a confernece at Dachau with gentlemen of the Luftwaffe. Whether gentlemen of the Navy were present at that, I don't recall.
Q. But I want you to try to remembr, because it is important you see. These were experiments on sea wayer. One would assume that the that the Navy would be interested. They were interested, and they sert a representative, didn't they?
A. I don't believe that a representative of the Navy was present.
Q. Do you know Dr. Laurens who was connected with U-boats at Kiel L-a-u-r-e-n-s?
A. No, I don't know him.
Q. Was it decided, in connection with these sea water experiments, to use gypsies for the purpose of experiments?
A. In this connection, I must give you the explanation that I started to give a little bit earlier, because this is the decisive point. Dr. Ploetner refused to carry out experiements on human beings and Himmler did not demand this of him. Grawtiz received the order to devote himself to these matters. Therefore, the readiness and willing ness, that is the agreement on their position had to be had if experiments on human beings were to be conducted. Grawtiz said that the Luftwaffe, and particularly a professor from Vienna, had put the request that inmates should be put at their disposal and in this connection gypsies may have been mentioned in order to talk about the drinkability of sea water. As to the details, I can not tell you, but at that time it was ordered that the chemical and physiological experiments be carried through, and for these purposes, in the institute headed by Dr. May, for a period of three weeks, two rooms were to be put ready in which these Luftwaffe physicians could work. As far as these experiments are concerned -
Q. You had a staff working in Dachau on these experiments consisting of a supervisor, three medical chemists, one female assistant, and three non-commissioned officers, didn't you, in connection with these sea water experiments for Grawtiz?
A. Yes, that may be. That was under the supervision of Frawitz and his directives, but the institution of which I never learned anything. Our rooms, were just confiscated but everything else was taken care of by Grawitz. I do not know who worked there or whether they were personnel of the SS.
Q. Why was this staff working in Dachau? Why was Dachau chosen as the place for the scientific experiments of making seawater drinkable? It was because, you had the human guinea pigs there, wasn't it?
A. I hare already said that the Luftwaffe contacted Himmler for the purpose of getting inmates for these experiments, and therefore Dachau was selected.
Q. I want you now to go back to your diary, page 30 of the British document book, My Lord. You will see an entry for the 14th of April, "Political Department about escape of Pacholegg". This prisoner Pacholegg escaped, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you go to the Political Department about him?
A. For, toward the end of the year, together with Rascher and Pacholegg I was at Vorarlberg and I had been accused of aiding the escape of a prisoner. We are dealing here with the matter of arrest and I knew what the consequences would have been if Rascher suspected that I had aided the escape of the prisoners.
Q. You must have been extremely anxious when Pachelogg escaped because he knew a lot of the details about your work, didn't he? You must have been most anxious to secure his recapture.
A. At that moment I was worried about myself for it would not be hard to imagine what would have happened if Rascher knew about what had happened.
Q. If you look at the entry for the 23rd of May, you will see that you had a conference with the Reichsarzt SS Grawits, Poppendick, and Ploetner. Then you had "Division as to the work of Dr. Schilling's". Then, in the afternoon, you had a second conference with Ploetner. That was about these experiments to make seawater drinkable, wasn't it?
A. No, we are here concerned with the matter of Ploetner who complained about the work carried on by Schilling and said that he could not continue working aby longer as he was a member of the Waffen SS.
Q. You yourself must have been feeling pangs of conscience about the use of inmates because your military situation was rather delicate, wasn't it?
A. I did not have a conflict of conscience at that late date, but much sooner than that, and because of the documents which are being submitted now and the accusations which were raised against me at that time, I am forced to give a confession and I should like to make some statements, and I ask to be heard before the High Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you may say anything you wish in that regard.
MR. ELWYN JONES: I would like to say that I have some other questions which I would like to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: You may.
MR. ELWYN JONES: It might be to the advantage of the Tribunal if I asked him about a few other matters and then perhaps we could return to his statement, however, if your Lordship wishes, I would be perfectly willing to let the witness make his statement now if he wishes.
THE PRESIDENT: Let him make it now, then.
MR. ELWYN JONES: If your Lordship pleases. Then, witness, will you make your confession to the Tribunal?
THE WITNESS: Before the Commission of 27 June, in reply to questions, I had to answer and give certain statements; and I was repeatedly asked to be briefed. Because of that I had to limit myself to the facts only and my personal attitude was not stated. As I have seen the consequences that were brought about as to my credibility which was doubted, it was proposed that I personally participated in these incriminating experiments and did not wish to tell the truth. Therefore, in order to clear matters, I must testify, myself, personally.
resistance movement and because of this function in the Ahnenerbe, there was quite a good deal of chances to work illegally. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. When you say "resistance movement", I did not quite understand you. What was the "resistance movement" that you were leading?
A. In the secret organization of Dr. Hilfer, who was the head of the movement in connection with the 20th of July in which he was arrested by the Gestapo and put in prison. Therefore, I worked against the experiments. Finally, this had the consequence that Himmler, as is seen from the decree, declared that resistance against these experiments was high treason and execution was to follow. Among other things, he told me that he was going to carry the full responsibility for those experiments, and apart from that experiments on human beings had taken place repeatedly in medical research. These experiments carried out in 1900 on human beings . . .
MR. ELWYN JONES: I do not know if the Tribunal wants to hear more of this conversation. It seems to me to be more of an avoidance than a confession and I have numerous matters to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Elwyn Jones, the Tribunal thinks you better go on with your cross-examination. If the witness wants to add something at the end he may do so. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Now, just look back again at your diary. On 27 June you had a conference with SS Stabsfuehrer Dr. Brandt and SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Berg on the "creating of a scientific research station in a concentration camp. Information about conference with SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl." That was on 27 June 1944, you know. On 25 July, you had a conference with "SS Stabsfuehrer Maurer, Oranienburg, about the use of inmates for scientific purposes." That was when you were leading the resistance movement. On 26 July with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Fischer by phone. "Order in accordance with conference with SS Stafsfuehrer Maurer, dated July 25, 1944, to journey fastest through all concentration camps in order to fix finally the persons".
"Proceeding of research of SS Sturmbannfuehrer Prof. Dr. Hirt. Revewed release of Staff Surgeon Dr. Wimmer for duty and setting aside of the Chemist, SS Obersturmfuehrer Martinek in accordance with letter of October 6, 1944".
On 23 October, you were having a conference with Poppendieck. On that day you record in your diary, "Taking over of biological research by SS Stabsfuehrer Dr. Ploetner in Dachau." of blood?
A. No.
Q. Did you take part in any such experiments?
A. I never participated in these experiments, for I am a research man, but I do remember that Dr. Ploetner refused to carry out experiments on human beings and the text of this means . . .
Q. I am sorry to interrupt you, but I would like you to say what you personally knew about these experiments. What was the form of them, for instance?
A. The method of quickening of coagulation of blood took place in Inssbruck under Prof. Breitner, and finally, in Vienna under Professor Decks leadership.
Q. What happened was that bullets were fired into prisoners of a concentration camp and experiments were carried on as to how fast they could stop the flow of blood. That was the form of the experiments, wasn't it?
A. These experiments were carried on by Rascher and not by Professor Ploetner, and they came to light only after Rascher's arrest.
Q. I am not concerned with who carried them out. You know the form of the experiments and you know that the form was that bullets were fired into the prisoners and afterwards efforts were made to stop the flow of blood, isn't that true?
A. That only came to light after Rascher's arrest.
Q. Just look at document No. 065, page 8 of the British document book.
That will become GB-583, and it is an affidavit of Oswald Pohl of the WVHA, and I want to direct your attention to paragraph 4, page 11 of the German document book, in which he gives some testimony about you. I only want to point out a few things in paragraph 4.
"Sievers came to find out from me about the possibilities for manufacturing of medicine. I mentioned the Deutsche Heilmittel GMBH in Prague which belonged to the German plants, managed by Oberfuehrer Baier of my staff. I recommended Sievers to go to him. The medicine had been manufactured later in Schlachters (Black Forest). Sievers told me the following: The 'Ahnenerbe', whose manager was Sievers, had developed in Dachau a medicine which quickly brought coagulation of blood. It was enormously important for our army because it prevented continual bleeding. It was the result of experiments in Dachau during which a prisoner was fired upon. A prisoner in Dachau, a specialist in the field, took an important part in the discovery of this medicine."
Now, those facts are true, aren't the?
A. Yes, but the sense is not quite complete there. When this conference took place, Rascher had already been arrested for some time and it was known that he, himself, had carried on this experiment and I told Pohl quite extensively, for Dr. Breitner had worked and completed this medicine and expert opinion by Professor Breitner and Professor Denck and another doctor from Vienna had to be held first and the picture shown in this document is completely wrong.
Q. Rascher is dead. It is convenient to cast all the blame on to him, isn't it ?
A. Here we are concerned with clarifying facts and therefore I can say only those things which are ture and which I know exactly.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the experiments into the cause of contagious jaundice ?
A. No, I know nothing about that.
Q. I want you to look at document No. 010 page 4 of the English document Exhibit GB 584. That was a letter, as you see, from Grawitz to Himmler. It is dated the 1st of June 1943 and headed "Top Secret." Subject : into the cause of contagious jaundice."
THE PRESIDENT: What is the signature ? BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. That is the signature of Grawitz, is it not, the Reich Doctor SS and Police ?
A. Yes.
Q. "Reichsfuehrer : The Fuehrer's commissioner-general, SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt ..." Pausing there for a moment, he was the Reich Commissioner for Health and Sanitation, wasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. The Fuehrer's commissioner-General, SS Brigadifuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt called on me with request that I should assist him by placing prisoners at his disposal for research work into the cause of contagious jaundice which he was furthering considerably.
"The work has been carried out up to now by a medical captain, Dr. Dohmen, within the framework of the research place of the army medical inspectorate, with the participation of the Robert Koch Institute. It has up research workers, that contagious jaundice is not carried by bacteria but by a virus. In order to increase our knowledge, which is based up to now only on vaccination experiments from men to animals, the reverse way is now necessary, namely the vaccination of the cultivated virus germ into humans. One must reckon on cases of death.
"The therapeutic and above all the prophylatic results are naturally largely dependent on this last experimental step. 8 prisoners condemned to death would be required, if possible of fairly young age, within the prisoners' hospital of Sachsenhausen concentration camp. I respectfully ask for a decision. Reichsfuehrer, as to :
"1. Whether I may start the experiments in the prescribed form;
"2. Whether the experiments may be carried out in the Sachsenhause prisoners hospital by medical captain Dr. Dohmen himself.
"Although Herr Dohmen does not belong to the SS (he is an SA leader and a party member), I would recommend this as an exception in the interests of the continuity of the series of experiments and thus of the accuracy of the results.
"The practical importance of the question raised for our own troops, especially in Southern Russia, is shown by the fact that this illness has been very widespread in the past years, both amongst us in the Waffen SS and the police and in the Army, so that companies have been reduced by 60% for periods of up to 6 weeks." is signed by Grawitz. Grawitz was the vice president of the German Red Cross , wasn't he ?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to turn to the document No. 011 on page 5 of the British document book --- GB 585. That is the reply of Himmler to the letter of Grawitz.