A. Yes.
Q. "The Reichsfuehrer-SS has issued a directive to the effect that Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt, who is the director of the Anotomical Institute at Strassburg and the head of a department of the institute for Military Science Research in the Ahnenerbe Society, be furnished with everything he needs for his research work. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS therefore, I ask you to make possible the establishment of the planned collection. SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers will get in touch with you with regard to straightening out the details."
Do you still say you know nothing of the details of this matter ?
A. I did not say that, you know. Here we are concerned with the entire historical development of this matter, and in that connection I just can not say from what moment forward this matter started, for that depended on conversations between Himmler and Hirt, and may be traced back to them directly and antedating the date when Hirt became Director of Anatomy at Strassburg University, and in that capacity, had the opportunity and received the task of setting up a modern anatomical department supplied with the necessary modern facilities and collections. Thereupon, Hirt, falling back upon his previous conversations with Himmler, charged me, as may be seen from the report, with helping Hirt in carrying out this matter as charged to him by Himmler, although I do not know whether Himmler himself -
Q. Just a moment, witness. How many human beings were killed to create this collection of skeletons ?
A. Here we are concerned with the figure of 150 people in this report.
Q. That was all you assisted in murdering, was it ?
A. I had nothing to do with the murdering of these people. I purely and simply carried through the function of a mailman.
Q. You were the post office, another of these distinguished Nazi post office were you ?
A. And now, if you wish to refer, as I gather from your question to my interrogation before the Commission, I must point out that in the interroga tion before the Commission, solely and alone, the group Rascher was under discussion.
Q. I asked you quite clearly when I cross examined you before the Commission -- my final question is on the record at page 1939 of the transcript --"How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with the Rascher and other experiments carried out under the guise of Nazi science"? and you told me, "I cannot say, because I have no insight into these matters, you know". Fortunately, there are records of what you witnesses say available.
A. Even today I do not know. I can not fix the dates, and I do not know the number of experimental persons used by Rascher, and therefore I can not tell you that there were a certain number, especially if I do not know.
Q. You sware to that Commissioner that you had no insight into these matters. Turn to document 087, so that your memory may be refreshed.
That will been GB 577. It is page 14 of Your Lordship's document book.
This is another of your letters. It is headed "Ahnenerbe Society, Institute for Military Scientific research". You were the director of that institute, wer you not ?
A. I was the Reich Business Manager.
Q. This is dated 21 June 1943. It is marked "Top Secret", to the RSHA Department IV B 4, for the attention of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann. "Subject I Establishment of a Collection of Skeletons."
"Referring to your letter of 25 September 1942, and the personal conversations which have since taken place on this subject, I wish to inform you that our associate, SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Beger, who was in charge of the above special project, concluded his experiments in the KL Auschwitz on 15 June 1943 because of the existing danger of epidemics.
"Altogether 115 persons were experimented on."
Let me just pause there for a moment. What form of experiments were going on on this human beings with a view to the collection of skeletons?
What osrt of experiments were the, witness ?
A. Anthropological measurements.
Q. Before they were murdered, they were anthropologically measured ? That was all there was to it, was it ?
A. And casts were taken ?
Q. It does not take very long to make an anthropological measurement or to take a cast, you know, witness. There were some other experiments than measurements and casts carried out on these unfortunate victims of your science, were there not ?
A. I am not familiar with the carrying through of these things. I know long these measurements took.
Q. I will continue your letter now, which makes it quite clear that there must have been something far more sinister than anthropological measurements.
"Altogether 115 persons were experimented on. 79 were Jews; 30 were Jewesses, 2 were Poles and 4 were Asiatics. At the present time, these prisoners are segregated by sex and are under quarantine in two hospital buildings of KL Auschwitz.
"For the further experimentation on these selected prisoners it will be necessary to have them transferred to the KL Natzweiler. This transfer should be made as speedily as possible because of the existing danger of an epidemic at Auschwitz. A list of the selected people is attached.
"We request that the necessary directives be issued. Since this transfer of prisoners presents a certain amount of danger, such as spreading the epidemic to Natzweiler, we request that immune and clean prisoner suits for 80 men and 30 women be sent from Natzweiler to Auschwitz immediately. At the same time lodgings should be prepared for the women at Natzweiler in the near future." pological measurements and the securing of their frail bones for skeletons why did you not kill them straightaway ? You must have made experiments on them, the results of which you wanted to discover did you not ?
A. No, I know nothing whatever of experiments, and experiments were not carried on.
Q. What happened to this collection of skeletons ? Where was it assem blated ?
A. They were taken to Natzweiler, and the further treatment was in the hands of Professor Hirt.
Q. After SS Professor Hirt and the ether SS men had murdered these people what happened to their bodies ? Where were they sent ?
A. I assume that they came to the Anatomical Department at Strassburg.
Q Have you any doubt in your mind about that, Witness?
8 Aug M LJG 10-1 Blakley You seem to be hesitant about admitting it. Have you any doubt?
A Well, I have seen no reports about that and didn't receive any reports about these matters. skeletons and these bodies ultimately? Did you have anything to do with the ultimate disposal of those bodies? I appreciate your difficulty in answering the question.
A No. That was in the hands of Professor Hirt. I wasn't at Natzweiler in this connection at all. to the collection at any time?. question dealing with the occupation of Strassburg and the remaining of the collection.
Q What did you do then? I can't exactly tell you with whom it was-- to bring about a decision on the part of Himmler about the whereabouts of the remaining of this collection.
Q Were you present at that conference? and what should be done with the human bodies that you had assembled at Strassburg? Did you have any suggestions to make?
A I can't tell you at this moment. I can't tell you from my memory.
Q Just try to recollect, will you? I'm sure you know. It was 1944. It's not very long ago. I'm sure it must be very vivid in your memory.
A I'm sorry; I can't give you an exact answer because I don't remember. Strassburg and the day of reckoning was coming for you, what 8 Aug M LJG 10-2 Blakley suggestion did you make with regard to those bodies in Strassburg?
Tell the Court.
A I've already said that I sent to Himmler to make a decision as to what was to become of this collection, for here we were concerned with a matter, concerned with conversations, ideas, and methods which resulted from those conversations between Himmler and Hirt, a matter into which I was called or brought because of an administrative and technical development of the matter; and therefore Himmler alone was the only one who could dispose of this matter and say what should be done.
Q I've again given you an opportunity to protect yourself from perjury. Look at the document Number 083 at Page 15; of your Lordship's document book it will be GB-578. This is another of the letters from your personal staff to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant; and it is addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS Personal Staff Department; and that's the one in Berlin.
Q It was dated the 5th of September, 1944. It is marked "Top Secret." The Allied Armies were advancing towards Strassburg, weren't they, by then?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q The subject is "Re: Collection of Jewish Skeletons." "According to the proposal of 9 February, 1942, and your approval of 23 February, 1942, Professor Dr. Hirt has assembled the skeleton collection which was previously non-existent. Because of the vast amount of scientific research connected therewith, the job of reducing the corpses to skeletons has not yet been completed. Since it might require some time, Hirt requested eighty copies of the directives pertaining to the treatment of the collection stored in the morgue of the Anatomical Institute in case Strassburg should be endangered.
"The collection can be do-fleshed and thereby rendered unidentifiable. This, however, would mean that at least part of the whole work had been done for nothing and that this singular 8 Aug M LJG 10-3 Blakley collection would be lost to science, since it would be impossible to make plaster casts afterwards.
The skeleton collection as such is incomspicuous. The flesh parts could be declared as having been left by the French at the time we took over the Anatomical Institute and would be turned over for cremating. Please advise me which of the following three proposals is to be carried out:
"1. The collection as a whole is to be preserved.
"2. The collection is to be dissolved in part.
"3. The collection is to be completely dissolved."
Why were you wanting to de-flesh the bodies, Witness? meant to be an inquiry from Professor Hirt to me; and I received it in this way; and it was teleprinted in that form. As I said previously, I could not exactly remember just how far this matter applied to me, for I as a lay person was completely ignorant of it. on to the French? You know there was murder in connection with this collection, didn't you? You know it perfectly well, Witness Hirt; and I explained the matter that I could not put an inquiry of my own in this form, for I as a layman could not handle this matter. I must state that this is an inquiry by Hirt which was transmitted by me. fleshing of these bodies?
A I can't tell you anything about that for I can't quite comprehend this matter. I can't quite comprehend it. the whole story. Just look at it because it is clear that you have no intention of telling the truth, Document Number 091, Exhibit GB-579. There are two notes from Himmler's file. The first note, signed by SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg: " On the 12th of October 1944, I had a telephone conversation with SS-Stand 8 Aug M LJG 10-4 Blakley artenfuehrer Sievers and asked him if the Strassburg skeleton collection had been completely dissolved as directed by SSStandertenfuhrer Baumert.
SS-Standartenfuhrer Sievers could not advise me on that matter since he had not as yet heard anything further from Professor Hirt. I told him that in case the dissolution had not yet been carried out, a certain part of the collection should be preserved. However, guarantee should be given that a complete dissolution could be made in time in case the military situation should endanger Strassburg. SS-Standartenfuhrer Sievers promised no that he would find out about it and let me know. note from Berg for Dr. Brandt: "During his visit at the Operational HQ on the 21st of October, 1944, SS-Standartenfuhrer Sievers told me that the collection in Strassburg had been completely dissolved in the meantime in conformance with the directive given him the time. He is of the opinion that this arrangement is for the best in view of the whole situation." authenticity of my testimony can be seen for as he says Standartenfuhrer Sievers could not report to me on this matter for he had not received any of the directives from Hirt. In any event, I always waited for the directive and report of Dr. Hirt. My own attitude in these matters was that I did not play any role whatsoever in this matter. As I have already mentioned in the interrogations before the Commission, I could not do anything to cause things or to prevent them. periment in murder, weren't you? That was your function? You were a vital cog in the machine of this "Ahnenerbe"?
A It wasn't an essential part. As it may be seen from the Commission findings, " Ahnenerbe" comprised more than fifty branches and had large intentions in the line of research; and this was erected on a scientific basis. I considered myself 8 Aug M LJG 10-5 Blakley "with those matters in such a way that they were matters which in my opinion were unfortunate and were combined with these matters by Himmler.
I played hardly any part in it at all. In vain did I try to prevent this connection. matters did arise in connection with the work of the "Ahnenerbe", do you?
Q. What was your connection with the experiments on human beings in connection with the poison gas or poisoned chemical "Lost", experiments on counter-agents for wounds caused by your preparation, Lost? treatment of therapy for the curing of Lost damages. In the development of this method of therapy, he experimented on himself, an experiment which damaged his health, as can be scan from the documents submitted here now.
Q. Did he experiment on anyone other than himself?
A I shall continue. Himmler was interested in those experiments and was quite executed when he heard that Hirt had done those experiments on his own person; and in this connection he referred to the third decree that in the case of experiments like that volunteers from inmates or criminals who had been sentenced to death should be chosen for these experiments. Then, thereupon, Hirt only at Himmler's request, conducted experiments, controlled experiments, on twenty persons. But when he had ascertained from his own experiments on his own person that lasting damages would not arise any longer, he further referred to the fact that it was much more important-and this was the first working contact with Hirt--that sufficient animals should be procured, for at the outbreak of the war the supply of experimental animals had been reduced in such a way that scientific experiments -Q Just a moment, Witness, Can't you answer my questions 8 Aug M LJG 10-6 Blakley without going into these lengthy speeches?
Did you substitute human beings for animals for the purpose of these experiments?
A You mean in connection with Professor Hirt?
Q. Certainly. person he experimented on twenty people who reported voluntarily for this experiment.
explaining certain difficulties that you were getting with the Natzweiler concentration camp?
A I don't have the document before no.
Q Don't worry yourself. Just try to answer my question. Don't won whether you have the document before you. I appreciate it will be embarrass if it is found. Just answer my question. Did you write to Brandt in connection with these Lost experiments, describing difficulties you were having from the concentration camp?
A I don't remember in particular which difficulties we were concerned with. It may be that I wrote him on this matter, yes. experiments, will you? things on the basis of remarks and reports came to me in that way, and I transmitted these things without being able to recall those matters in particular, because these were single and isolated cases among the mass and wealth of material in my work, so that details could no longer remain in my memory after this length of time.
Q I appreciate the mass of work you were involved in. I have four or five other experiments in murder to draw your attention to. But just look at the document No. 092, Page 19 of Your Lordship's Document Book, GB 58. That is a letter from Brandt to you. It is addressed to you, SS-Standarten Fuehrer Sievers, the Ahnenerbe Society, dated 3 December 1942. "I have your note of 3 November 1942 again in front of me today. At the time I could only speak to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl very shortly. If I remember correctly, he ever sent me a letter informing me that he would have the deficiencies which you described taken care of, but I did not have time to enumerate them in detail. I had just received your letter the same morning on which I went to see SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Therefore, it was impossible for me to read over it beforehand. I only remembered what you had told me during our last conversation. It if should be necessary for me to take this matter up again, will you please let me know." Now, what were those deficiencies which you has described in your note to Pohl?
Just try to remember them.
A I can't tell you what we were concerned with in particular here. Please show me the remark.
Q Can you not recall at all what the difficulty was? Was it connected with the payment for the prisoners to be experimented on?
A I don't recall that. as far as April, 1944, didn't they?
A I can't tell you that from memory.
Q Try to recall. Didn't they go on until April 1944? Just look at Document No, 015. You are being totally uncooperative. That would be GB 581. That is another of your letters to the Reichsfuehrer-SS. On Page 6 of your Document Book, My Lord. To the Reichsfuehrer-SS Personal Staff Department A. It is dated the 11th of April, 1944. Top secret. It is from you to Brandt. Subject: Fuehrer's order of 1 March 1944.
"Dear Comrade Brandt, In accordance with orders, I got in touch with SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt and informed him in Beelitz on the 31st March about the research work conducted by Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt. On this occasion I handed to him the plan for the treatment of L.damage --" That is Lost damage, is it not, Witness?
Q "-- worked out by Professor Hirt, a copy of which I enclose for you for presentation to the Reichsfuehrer SS if the occasion should arise. Professor Brandt tells me that he will be in Strassburg; in the first week in April and that he intends to discuss details with Professor Hirt then." Now, you say that those experiments on human beings with this poison Lost went on right through to 1944, didn't they?
A No, it isn't true that way. This letter may be traced to the following: Professor Brandt was made General Commissar for materials of combat, I received a copy of this report appointing him, with instructions that from now on, since his appointment had taken place, I should cause Hirt to talk with Brandt. Hirt told me that for that reason he could not travel to Mr. Brandt at Beelitz. Therefore, at the request of Hirt, I traveled to see Brandt.
Q All right, witness. I want to turn now to another aspect of your work, the Rascher experiments. You remember telling me that you had no insight into the Rascher experiments. Document 3546 PS. It has already been marked Exhibit GB 551. Your Lordship will find a few extracts from it at Page 29 of the Document Book. witness, I have made certain extracts from your diary, and it might be convenient for you to follow those extracts, and if you want to check then against your own diary, you will be able to do so. They show how in that year you were intimately connected with Rascher and all these other murderers. The first entry is for the 6 January, 1830 hours, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher. Paragraph (c) Letter from RFSS to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl about assistance for scientific research work. Rooms for carrying through of freezing experiments. They were at Dachau, weren't they? the Commission interrogations, they were not carried through. Here we deal with the notes about a conversation with Rascher in which he was reporting on these matters. not carried through? experiment, that they would have to be carried through in a locality where extreme temperatures were required, aid these experiments did not take place. carried cut, didn't you, in Dachau? You wherein Dachau from time to time? experiments by the Luftwaffe and the freezing experiments which were to be Carried out later on because of freezing conditions in the East. Here in the year 1944 we are concerned with the experiments in freezing in connection with -
Q Which are the freezing experiments that you used to watch?
Q Did you see any of them being carried on? Rascher, was to work on this problem so that a solution could be brought about and on this occasion I was present once.
Q Now we will go to the Document 3546 PS, a little further. I have selected some random entries from it to show your close association with this matter. "23 January, 1130 hours, Lecture to RFSS together with Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Brandt. 1. We shall receive the reports of Professor Schilling Now, Professor Schilling is the man who has been sentenced to death for his malaria experiments at Dachau, isn't he?
Q He was also part of your team of scientists, wasn't he?
Q You only received his reports, that is all; was it? me at all. And Himmler on this occasion at this meeting explained that Schilling had received immunity symptoms which attracted attention. This report was to be given to us so that the Entomology Institute could receive cognizance of the fact of these things that were being carried out under the leadership of Dr. Mai in malaria experiments on the anopheles mosquito.
Q "We will go on to the next entry in the diary, the 28th of January. Your own diary has a daily entry of all the details, hit here is another extra "Cooperation with Institute R, Dachau". That is Rascher's institute at Dacha is it not?
Q Then the 29th of January, "With Hauptsturmfuehrer Rascher and Dr. Pacholegg to Dahlem." Who was Dr. Pacholegg?
A Dr. Pacholegg was an inmate when Rascher was using to work with him.
Q You knew him quite well yourself, I take it?
Q He was present at some of the experiments that you watched, wasn't he?
bleeding -
Q Just answer my question. Dr. Pacholegg was present at some of the experiments which you watched, was has not?
A He was a co-worker of Rascher's. He worked with him. Whether he was there all the time, I don't know.
Q If you refuse to answer my question I shall not put it again. We will continue further in your diary. Second of February, CA-Work experiments. First pictures of living cancer cells. 21. Protectional vaccination for spotted fever by Professor Haagen. The protectional vaccination for spotted fever in Natzweiler goes on with good results.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 9 August 1946 at 1000 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: I think I said -- at any rate, I will say it again -that the Tribunal will sit in open session tomorrow until one o'clock. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Witness, yesterday I was taking you through extracts of your diary for 1944. Have you a copy of these extracts in your possession at the moment? I am referring to the document 3546-PS, which is GB551.
MR. ELWYN JONES: I want to makes it clear, My Lord, that the extracts which are in this exhibit 3516-PS are only sporadic extracts taken from the diary relating to the medical experiments. There are numerous other entries in the diary referring to other aspects of the activity of the "Ahnenerbe" BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. I had taken you yesterday to the 2nd of February. Now, will you look at the entries for the 22nd of February ? You will see that you had a conference with Dr. May, and there is an entry relating to cooperation with Dr. Ploetner and Professor Schilling. What work was Dr. Ploetner on at that time ?
A. I cannot hear the German translation I am sorry.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you heard the question ?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Dr. Ploetner was active together with Dr. Schilling. This matter refers to the report from Himmler dated the 23rd of January , according to which the reports of Schilling's were to be passed along to Dr. May. These reports actually were not passed along, for Schilling refused any collaboration with Dr. May.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Now turn to the entry for the 25th of February.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it a separate document, or is it in the book?
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is in the document book, My Lord, Exhibit 3546 PS. BY M. ELWYN JONES:
Q. On the 25th of February you make an entry regarding the order of the RFSS about Ms work in Dachau in cooperation with Dr. Rascher.
"The 22nd of March,. 1830 to 2100 hours, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher preparation of the freezing experiments for the winter half-year 1944 to 1945".
You were at Dachau with Rascher on that date, were you not ?
A. Here we are concerned with these experiments which, as I already testified to before the Commission, I wanted to have carried through because of freezing conditions encountered in the East. These conditions, however, could not be carried through at Dachau. This fact was reported to Himmler, and he ordered that they were to be carried through during the following winter half-year. However, they were never carried through, for at that time Rascher had, been arrested, in April.
Q. For whom were you carrying through these experiments ? Was it for the army ?
A. These experiments were to be carried through with the Reichsartz SS Grawitz.
Q. He was the SS Chief Surgeon, was he not -- Grawitz ?
A. Yes.
Q. And his experiments were for the benefit of the Waffen SS, were they ?
A. Grawitz personally refused the carrying through of these experiments by current negotiations. They were not carried through in the winter of 193 1935, as Himmler had wished; but as Grawitz had wanted, if these experiment were to be carried through, Rascher was to go to the front and work in the hospitals in the front directly.
Q. You have not answered my question, witness. For whom were these experiments being carried out ? Was is for the Waffen SS ?
A. The order for the execution of these experiments was not on hand. The collaboration existed between the SS and the Wehrmacht, but I do not know the particulars.
Q. If you look at the next entry, 14th of April, Station Raschers; situa tion of work : Further work; orders for provisional carrying on; Hauptsturmfuehrer Ploetner introduced.
Now, that was the time when Rascher was arrested, was it not?
A. Yes, after Rascher had been arrested.
Q. And Hauptsturmfuehrer Ploetner succeeded Rascher, did he not?
A. Yes.
Q. The experiments were continued at Dachau and elsewhere? The removal of Rascher made no difference ?
A. Those were works of a different kind from those carried out by Rascher, completely different.
Q. You had attended some of the Rascher experiments, had you not?
A. I was at Dachau several times, yes.
Q. And you were there with Himmler on several occasions when Rascher was carrying out his experiments, were you not?
A. No, never did I go with Himmler together with Rascher at Dachau.
Q. I want you to look at the document 24-28-PS, which will be GB-582, which is an affidavit of Dr. Pacholegg of whom you spoke yesterday.
MR. ELWYN JONES: Your Lordship will find it at Page 25 of the English document book, Page 32 of the German document book. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. You will see this question and answer put to Pacholegg after he had described the experiments of the throwing of victims into cold water and of the experiments on prostitutes to restore the warmth of these people:
"Question: How was present at such an experiment?
"Answer: Heinrich Himmler and his staff generally witnessed these important experiments here at Dachau, or any new experiment. Standartenfuehrer Sievers was always present with Himmler."
A. That is not true.
Q. Those experiments were hideous experiments, weren't they, Witness?
A. You mentioned these experiments and I have already told you that I wasn't present at those experiments, that is when Himmler was there.
Q. Were you ever present when Himmler was not there?
A. I saw two experiments, one as I have already mentioned yesterday, an experiment which I saw in part when Dr. Rascher was present, and another experiment in the low pressure chamber.
Q. I want you to turn to Page 30 of the German document book, Page 22 of the English document book, so that your memory may be refreshed as to what sort of suffering these victims had to suffer under these so-called low pressure experiments.
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is in the last answer on Page 22 of the English document book, My Lord.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Pacholegg states: "There I have personally seen, through the observation window of a chamber, when a prisoner inside would stand in a vacuum until his lungs ruptured. Some experiments gave men such pressure in their heads that they would go mad and pull out their hair in an effort to relieve the pressure. They would tear their heads and faces with their fingers and mails in an attempt to maim themselves in their madness. They would beat the walls with their hands and head and scream in an effort to relieve pressure on their eardrums. These cases of extremes of vacuums generally ended in the death of the subject. An extreme experiments was so certain to result in death that in many instances the chamber was used for routine execution purposes rather than experiment. I have known Rascher experiments to subject a prisoner to vacuum conditions or extreme pressure conditions or combinations of both for as long as thirty minutes. The experiments were generally classified into two groups, one know as the living experiment and the other simply as the "X" experiment, which was a way of saying execution experiment." for the Luftwaffe, weren't they?
A. Here we are concerned with the low pressure experiments, and the method of carrying them through I know for the first time through the reading here. The experiment which I witnessed--
Q. Just answer the question. Those experiments of that type were being carried out for the Luftwaffe, weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the participation of Goering in these experiments?
A. That is unknown to me, for the experiments at Dachau started in the year 1941 and I only learned of them after they had already begun. The connections with the Luftwaffe were carried on through the sanitation inspection offices and whether Standartenfuehrer Goering was informed about these matters that I can not tell you.