Q Were proceedings instituted against Hoess?
A Yes. The testimony of Hodis was submitted to Hoess in the original. that true?
Q If does not concern the situation in Dachau?
DR. MERKEL: Mr. President, concerning non-participation and ignorance on the part of the Gestapo as far as the mass production is concerned, I should like to be permitted to put three brief questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: You may.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you very much. BY DR. MERKEL: kommissar in Lublin were discovered because of a report of the Security Police in Lublin. In this way was the security police in Lublin responsible for participating in this crime?
A No. I did not understand that. were under the supervision of the Security Police. Is that correct?
A I know nothing about that. Wirt pictured the situation to me. I believe the name Treblinka was mentioned in that connection.
Q According to your conviction, this camp as well was under Wirt?
A. I assumed that.
Q Did you wish to execute an order to prosecute Eichmann? basis of my report. The SS Court in Berlin, thereupon, advised the Chief of the RSHA, that was Kaltenbrunner, to submit an order to intern him. Dr. Bachmann, the SS Judge in Berlin, reported to me that on the submission of this matter, rather dramatic incidents took place. Kaltenbrunner immediately called in Mueller, and now the judge was told that was not to be considered in any event for Eichmann was carrying out a special secret task entrusted to him by the Fuehrer in a mission of utmost importance.
Q When was that?
DR. MERKEL: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
DR. GAWLIK: On behalf of the SD, Your lordship, may I be permitted to put a few questions, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, you mentioned the orders of the RSHA. From which office did those orders come?
A You mean the orders for the mass production?
Q Answer the question briefly, please. Which offices issued those orders? that, to my knowledge.
Q You mentioned the orders of the RSHA, did you not? because of the killings they committed that they referred to the RSHA and said that these orders would have to be destroyed upon receipt. That was a pure and simple statement. That was the reason why this statement had to be checked and proved. way participating in these measures in any way?
Q Can you answer this question with a pure yes or no?
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The Prosecution very carefully consider. the question of cross examining this witness, We do not accept his evidence as to Buchenwald, Dachau and as to conditions in concentration camps generally. We feel the Tribunal has been shown so, an overwhelming amount of evidence including films and exhibits of the consistent pattern of cruelties in the concentration camps, of the smelling chimneys of the Crematoria and of the persons who carried out these actions, that we consider that any further destruction of these matters should be by way of comment and that it would not be right to take up the time of the Tribunal by confronting this witness with the details of that evidence which is sc fully in the Tribunal's mind.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
Is that your case?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution wants to cross examine the witness Sievers. We will call for Wolfram Sievers. follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: the pure truth and will withheld, and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES: the Ahnenerbe (Ancestral Hermitage Society), were you not? Commissioner appointed by this Tribunal? the Commission.
Do you recollect that Dr. Pelckmann, the counsel for the SS, announced that he was calling you to show that this Ahnenerbe did not know of the biological experiments of the group by Dr. Rascher, performed on concentration camp inmates? that when Dr. Pelckmann asked you:
"Did you have any possibility of being on the inside with regard to the relationship or the planning of the methods or carrying out of these scientific research works of the military scientific department" you answered "No"? telling the Commissioner that Himmler and Rancher were very close friends and you did not know exactly what went on? Do you remember that?
A I said that only in general but not in particular. I was informed about these matters.
Q In my final question to you in cross-examination I asked you:
"How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with Rascher and the other experiments carried out under the guise of Nazi science" and to that question you gave this answer:
"I cannot say because I had no insight into these matters."
Do you remember that on page 1939 of the transcript?
these matters.
Did you ever hear of Professor Hirt's skeleton collection? University of Strassburg.
Q I asked you did you hear about it? of skeletons, did you not?
Q You played an active part in the collection of those skeletons?
It is an insertion into the Tribunal's document book at page 1901. It follows page 19 in your Lordship's document book. It will be Exhibit GB 573.
Now we shall be able to test your ignorance of this collection. This is a letter from Brandt to the Main Office for the Security of the Reich, dated 6 November, 1942.
Brandt was Himmler's agent, was he not?
Q Now, this letter --:
"Subject: Organization of a skeleton collection in the Anatomical Institute of Strassburg.
"The Reichsfuehrer SS has ordered that everything necessary for the research work of SS Captain (Hauptsturmfuehrer) Professor Dr. Hirt, who is at the same time director of a branch of the Institute for Military Scientific Researches for Specific Purposes in the Office Ahnenerbe should be placed at his disposal. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, I therefore request you to make the organization of the planned skeleton collection possible. The SS Lt. Colonel (Obersturmbannfuehrer) Sievers will contact you for details."
Now, that Sievers is you, is it not?
Q Were you contacted for details? department of anatomy at the University of Strassburg which had been newly taken over and this was a matter or reconstruction of the so-called Anatomical Museum, something quite customary with all universities everywhere.
Q This was just a piece of academic research, was it?
Q Where were you going to get the skeletons from? the answer to it.
Where were you going to get those skeletons from?
Q Now, I want you to look at a letter in furtherance of Brandt's communication which you sent to Brandt, containing suggestions as to where those skeletons should come from.
It is document number 085, which will be GB 574. It is at page 11 of the document book, my Lord. It is at page 14 and 15 of the German document book.
Now, that is a letter headed "The Ahnenerbe", dated 9 February, 1942, marked "secret". It is addressed to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant. It is your letter, witness, is it not, it is your signature at the bottom of it?
"Dear Comrade Brandt:
"Professor Dr. Hirt's report, which you requested in your letter of 29 December, 1941, is submitted in the enclosure. I was not able to send it to you before because Professor Hirt was taken ill sometime later."
"Because of this Professor Hirt was merely able to write a preliminary report which, however, I should like to submit to you. The report concerns:
"1. His research in the field of microscoping living organs; the discovery of a new method of examination and the construction of a new research microscope.
"2. His proposal for securing skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars." Then there is your signature and you forwarded that letter and Professor Hirt's report and his suggestions ant this is Hirt's report:
"Subject: Security skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars for the purpose of scientific research at the Reichsuniversity, Strassburg.
"We have a nearly complete collection of skulls of all races and peoples at our disposal. Of the Jewish race, however, only very few specimen of skull: are available, with the result that it is impossible to arrive at precise conclusions from examining them. The war in the east now presents us with the opportunity to overcome this deficiency. By procuring the skulls of the Jewish Bolshevik commissars, who represent the prototype of the repulsive, but characteristic subhuman, we have the chance now to obtain a palpable, scientific document.
"The best, practical method for obtaining and collecting this skull material could be handled by directing the Wehrmacht to turn over alive all captured Jewish Bolshevik commissars to the Field Police. The Feldpolizei in turn, is to be given special directives to inform a certain office at regular intervals of the number and place of detention of these captured Jews and to give them special close attention and care until a special delegate arrives. This special delegate, who will be in charge of securing the material (a junior physician of the Wehrmacht or even the Feldpolizei or a student of medicine equipped with a motor car and driver), has the job of taking a series of previously established photographs, anthropological measurements and in addition, has to determine other personal data of the prisoners.
"Following the subsequently induced death of the Jew, whose head should not be damaged, the delegate will separate the head from the body and will forward it to its proper point of destination in a hermetically sealed tin can, especially produced for this purpose and filled with a conserving fluid. Having arrived at the laboratory, the comparison tests and anatomical research on the skull, as well as determination of the race membership of pathological features of the skull form, the form and size of the brain, etc. can proceed. The basis of these studios will be the photos, measurements and ether data supplied on the head and finally the tests of the skull itself."
That was the report which you forwarded to Brandt?
Q How did the collection of these skeletons from the living proceed?
A I cannot give you the exact details. In previous or earlier interrogations I referred to the fact that as far as this matter is concerned, Professor Hirt would have to be asked himself. truth. regard to the progress of that collection of skulls and skeletons?
A That may be seen from the report itself. When persons were put at our disposal this was at the order of Himmler. it, with the collection of the bodies? what manner this entire thing arose for direct correspondence and conferences had taken place previously between Himmler and Hirt and these are things I know nothing about. yourself from perjury. You have not taken it. Look at the next document number 86, which is on page 13 of the document book. It will be GB 575. That is another of your letters.
It is another letter of yours, again to Himmler's adjutant. It is marked "Secret". It is dated 2 November 1942. Page 13 of your document book, my Lord.
"As you know, the Reichsfuehrer-SS has directed that SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Professor Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything needed for his experiments. For certain anthropological experiments -- I already reported to the Reichsfuehrer-SS on them -- 150 skeletons of prisoners or Jews are required, which are to be supplied by the KL Auschwitz. The only thing that remains to be done is that the RSHA receive an official directive from the Reichsfuehrer-SS. This, however, can also be given by you, acting for the Reichsfuehrer-SS". not ? You were his agent for collecting these living men to turn them into skeletons ?
A. That does not apply in this way, in this form. The entire matter covered such a long period of time, and I was concerned only with particulars, that I am not able right now in a hurry to reconstruct the entire connection and coherence.
Q. I am sure you are in a hurry to reconstruct them, but I am sure you should. For the second time in regard to this matter you have taken an oath, and I want you to give some indication that you know what an oath means. You are a man of education. to how distand you were from this matter.
THE PRESIDENT: It came through 089. Do you mean 087 ?
MR. ELWYN JONES: 089, page 16 of your Lordship's document book. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. That is a letter from Brandt, to the RSHA dated 6 November 1942, marked "Secret". It is for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann of the RSHA. Reference is "Establishment of a collection of skeletons at the Anatomical Institute at Strass burg."
A. Yes.
Q. "The Reichsfuehrer-SS has issued a directive to the effect that Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt, who is the director of the Anotomical Institute at Strassburg and the head of a department of the institute for Military Science Research in the Ahnenerbe Society, be furnished with everything he needs for his research work. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS therefore, I ask you to make possible the establishment of the planned collection. SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers will get in touch with you with regard to straightening out the details."
Do you still say you know nothing of the details of this matter ?
A. I did not say that, you know. Here we are concerned with the entire historical development of this matter, and in that connection I just can not say from what moment forward this matter started, for that depended on conversations between Himmler and Hirt, and may be traced back to them directly and antedating the date when Hirt became Director of Anatomy at Strassburg University, and in that capacity, had the opportunity and received the task of setting up a modern anatomical department supplied with the necessary modern facilities and collections. Thereupon, Hirt, falling back upon his previous conversations with Himmler, charged me, as may be seen from the report, with helping Hirt in carrying out this matter as charged to him by Himmler, although I do not know whether Himmler himself -
Q. Just a moment, witness. How many human beings were killed to create this collection of skeletons ?
A. Here we are concerned with the figure of 150 people in this report.
Q. That was all you assisted in murdering, was it ?
A. I had nothing to do with the murdering of these people. I purely and simply carried through the function of a mailman.
Q. You were the post office, another of these distinguished Nazi post office were you ?
A. And now, if you wish to refer, as I gather from your question to my interrogation before the Commission, I must point out that in the interroga tion before the Commission, solely and alone, the group Rascher was under discussion.
Q. I asked you quite clearly when I cross examined you before the Commission -- my final question is on the record at page 1939 of the transcript --"How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with the Rascher and other experiments carried out under the guise of Nazi science"? and you told me, "I cannot say, because I have no insight into these matters, you know". Fortunately, there are records of what you witnesses say available.
A. Even today I do not know. I can not fix the dates, and I do not know the number of experimental persons used by Rascher, and therefore I can not tell you that there were a certain number, especially if I do not know.
Q. You sware to that Commissioner that you had no insight into these matters. Turn to document 087, so that your memory may be refreshed.
That will been GB 577. It is page 14 of Your Lordship's document book.
This is another of your letters. It is headed "Ahnenerbe Society, Institute for Military Scientific research". You were the director of that institute, wer you not ?
A. I was the Reich Business Manager.
Q. This is dated 21 June 1943. It is marked "Top Secret", to the RSHA Department IV B 4, for the attention of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann. "Subject I Establishment of a Collection of Skeletons."
"Referring to your letter of 25 September 1942, and the personal conversations which have since taken place on this subject, I wish to inform you that our associate, SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Beger, who was in charge of the above special project, concluded his experiments in the KL Auschwitz on 15 June 1943 because of the existing danger of epidemics.
"Altogether 115 persons were experimented on."
Let me just pause there for a moment. What form of experiments were going on on this human beings with a view to the collection of skeletons?
What osrt of experiments were the, witness ?
A. Anthropological measurements.
Q. Before they were murdered, they were anthropologically measured ? That was all there was to it, was it ?
A. And casts were taken ?
Q. It does not take very long to make an anthropological measurement or to take a cast, you know, witness. There were some other experiments than measurements and casts carried out on these unfortunate victims of your science, were there not ?
A. I am not familiar with the carrying through of these things. I know long these measurements took.
Q. I will continue your letter now, which makes it quite clear that there must have been something far more sinister than anthropological measurements.
"Altogether 115 persons were experimented on. 79 were Jews; 30 were Jewesses, 2 were Poles and 4 were Asiatics. At the present time, these prisoners are segregated by sex and are under quarantine in two hospital buildings of KL Auschwitz.
"For the further experimentation on these selected prisoners it will be necessary to have them transferred to the KL Natzweiler. This transfer should be made as speedily as possible because of the existing danger of an epidemic at Auschwitz. A list of the selected people is attached.
"We request that the necessary directives be issued. Since this transfer of prisoners presents a certain amount of danger, such as spreading the epidemic to Natzweiler, we request that immune and clean prisoner suits for 80 men and 30 women be sent from Natzweiler to Auschwitz immediately. At the same time lodgings should be prepared for the women at Natzweiler in the near future." pological measurements and the securing of their frail bones for skeletons why did you not kill them straightaway ? You must have made experiments on them, the results of which you wanted to discover did you not ?
A. No, I know nothing whatever of experiments, and experiments were not carried on.
Q. What happened to this collection of skeletons ? Where was it assem blated ?
A. They were taken to Natzweiler, and the further treatment was in the hands of Professor Hirt.
Q. After SS Professor Hirt and the ether SS men had murdered these people what happened to their bodies ? Where were they sent ?
A. I assume that they came to the Anatomical Department at Strassburg.
Q Have you any doubt in your mind about that, Witness?
8 Aug M LJG 10-1 Blakley You seem to be hesitant about admitting it. Have you any doubt?
A Well, I have seen no reports about that and didn't receive any reports about these matters. skeletons and these bodies ultimately? Did you have anything to do with the ultimate disposal of those bodies? I appreciate your difficulty in answering the question.
A No. That was in the hands of Professor Hirt. I wasn't at Natzweiler in this connection at all. to the collection at any time?. question dealing with the occupation of Strassburg and the remaining of the collection.
Q What did you do then? I can't exactly tell you with whom it was-- to bring about a decision on the part of Himmler about the whereabouts of the remaining of this collection.
Q Were you present at that conference? and what should be done with the human bodies that you had assembled at Strassburg? Did you have any suggestions to make?
A I can't tell you at this moment. I can't tell you from my memory.
Q Just try to recollect, will you? I'm sure you know. It was 1944. It's not very long ago. I'm sure it must be very vivid in your memory.
A I'm sorry; I can't give you an exact answer because I don't remember. Strassburg and the day of reckoning was coming for you, what 8 Aug M LJG 10-2 Blakley suggestion did you make with regard to those bodies in Strassburg?
Tell the Court.
A I've already said that I sent to Himmler to make a decision as to what was to become of this collection, for here we were concerned with a matter, concerned with conversations, ideas, and methods which resulted from those conversations between Himmler and Hirt, a matter into which I was called or brought because of an administrative and technical development of the matter; and therefore Himmler alone was the only one who could dispose of this matter and say what should be done.
Q I've again given you an opportunity to protect yourself from perjury. Look at the document Number 083 at Page 15; of your Lordship's document book it will be GB-578. This is another of the letters from your personal staff to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant; and it is addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS Personal Staff Department; and that's the one in Berlin.
Q It was dated the 5th of September, 1944. It is marked "Top Secret." The Allied Armies were advancing towards Strassburg, weren't they, by then?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q The subject is "Re: Collection of Jewish Skeletons." "According to the proposal of 9 February, 1942, and your approval of 23 February, 1942, Professor Dr. Hirt has assembled the skeleton collection which was previously non-existent. Because of the vast amount of scientific research connected therewith, the job of reducing the corpses to skeletons has not yet been completed. Since it might require some time, Hirt requested eighty copies of the directives pertaining to the treatment of the collection stored in the morgue of the Anatomical Institute in case Strassburg should be endangered.
"The collection can be do-fleshed and thereby rendered unidentifiable. This, however, would mean that at least part of the whole work had been done for nothing and that this singular 8 Aug M LJG 10-3 Blakley collection would be lost to science, since it would be impossible to make plaster casts afterwards.
The skeleton collection as such is incomspicuous. The flesh parts could be declared as having been left by the French at the time we took over the Anatomical Institute and would be turned over for cremating. Please advise me which of the following three proposals is to be carried out:
"1. The collection as a whole is to be preserved.
"2. The collection is to be dissolved in part.
"3. The collection is to be completely dissolved."
Why were you wanting to de-flesh the bodies, Witness? meant to be an inquiry from Professor Hirt to me; and I received it in this way; and it was teleprinted in that form. As I said previously, I could not exactly remember just how far this matter applied to me, for I as a lay person was completely ignorant of it. on to the French? You know there was murder in connection with this collection, didn't you? You know it perfectly well, Witness Hirt; and I explained the matter that I could not put an inquiry of my own in this form, for I as a layman could not handle this matter. I must state that this is an inquiry by Hirt which was transmitted by me. fleshing of these bodies?
A I can't tell you anything about that for I can't quite comprehend this matter. I can't quite comprehend it. the whole story. Just look at it because it is clear that you have no intention of telling the truth, Document Number 091, Exhibit GB-579. There are two notes from Himmler's file. The first note, signed by SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg: " On the 12th of October 1944, I had a telephone conversation with SS-Stand 8 Aug M LJG 10-4 Blakley artenfuehrer Sievers and asked him if the Strassburg skeleton collection had been completely dissolved as directed by SSStandertenfuhrer Baumert.
SS-Standartenfuhrer Sievers could not advise me on that matter since he had not as yet heard anything further from Professor Hirt. I told him that in case the dissolution had not yet been carried out, a certain part of the collection should be preserved. However, guarantee should be given that a complete dissolution could be made in time in case the military situation should endanger Strassburg. SS-Standartenfuhrer Sievers promised no that he would find out about it and let me know. note from Berg for Dr. Brandt: "During his visit at the Operational HQ on the 21st of October, 1944, SS-Standartenfuhrer Sievers told me that the collection in Strassburg had been completely dissolved in the meantime in conformance with the directive given him the time. He is of the opinion that this arrangement is for the best in view of the whole situation." authenticity of my testimony can be seen for as he says Standartenfuhrer Sievers could not report to me on this matter for he had not received any of the directives from Hirt. In any event, I always waited for the directive and report of Dr. Hirt. My own attitude in these matters was that I did not play any role whatsoever in this matter. As I have already mentioned in the interrogations before the Commission, I could not do anything to cause things or to prevent them. periment in murder, weren't you? That was your function? You were a vital cog in the machine of this "Ahnenerbe"?
A It wasn't an essential part. As it may be seen from the Commission findings, " Ahnenerbe" comprised more than fifty branches and had large intentions in the line of research; and this was erected on a scientific basis. I considered myself 8 Aug M LJG 10-5 Blakley "with those matters in such a way that they were matters which in my opinion were unfortunate and were combined with these matters by Himmler.
I played hardly any part in it at all. In vain did I try to prevent this connection. matters did arise in connection with the work of the "Ahnenerbe", do you?
Q. What was your connection with the experiments on human beings in connection with the poison gas or poisoned chemical "Lost", experiments on counter-agents for wounds caused by your preparation, Lost? treatment of therapy for the curing of Lost damages. In the development of this method of therapy, he experimented on himself, an experiment which damaged his health, as can be scan from the documents submitted here now.
Q. Did he experiment on anyone other than himself?
A I shall continue. Himmler was interested in those experiments and was quite executed when he heard that Hirt had done those experiments on his own person; and in this connection he referred to the third decree that in the case of experiments like that volunteers from inmates or criminals who had been sentenced to death should be chosen for these experiments. Then, thereupon, Hirt only at Himmler's request, conducted experiments, controlled experiments, on twenty persons. But when he had ascertained from his own experiments on his own person that lasting damages would not arise any longer, he further referred to the fact that it was much more important-and this was the first working contact with Hirt--that sufficient animals should be procured, for at the outbreak of the war the supply of experimental animals had been reduced in such a way that scientific experiments -Q Just a moment, Witness, Can't you answer my questions 8 Aug M LJG 10-6 Blakley without going into these lengthy speeches?
