Q Have you described everything?
THE PRESIDENT: Go on. BY DR. PELCKMANN: secrecy was secured?
A One essential thing is to be mentioned. Certain Jewish people with connections abroad were kept under especially good circumstances and allowed to write letters abroad concerning how well off they were in Auschwitz so that the public got the impression that these we know are alive and well off.
Q Thank you. Now, witness, under normal circumstances what would you have had to do after you had learned of all these things? kommissar Wirt and Kommandant Hoess arrested and charged with murder.
Q Did you do that?
Q Why not?
A The answer is shown by the question. In Germany the war, circumstances were no longer normal in a sense of legal guarantee. In addition, the following must be considered. I was not only a judge, but I was a judge of military penal law. No court martial in the world would judge an Army commander or the head of the State. you realized you should have done?
A. I beg your pardon. I was saying that it was not possible for me as an Obersturmfuehrer to arrest Hitler, who was the instigator of these orders.
Q. When what did you do ?
A. On the basis of this knowledge, I realized that here something had to be done. A stop had to be put to this action. Hitler had to be induced to withdraw his orders. Under the circumstances, this could be done only by Himmler as Minister of the Interior and Minister of the Police, I therefore endeavored and thought at the time to approach Himmler through the heads of the departments and through the effects of this system, make it clear to him, that through these methods the state was being led to destruction. I approached my immediate superior, the head of the Criminal Police, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Nebe; then I turned to the head of the SS, Obergruppenfuehrer Breithaupt. I also approached Kaltenbrunner, Gruppenfuehrer Mueller of the Gestapo, Gruppenfuehrer Pohl of the WVHA, and the SS Reichsarzt, Dr. Grawitz, but aside from this necessity of taking steps, I saw a practical way open to me by way of justice; that is, to have the spies and the important members of this system taken out one after another through the means available to the system itself. I could not do this because of the killings ordered by the head of the state but I could do it for killings outside of this order or against this order or for other serious crimes and for that reason, I had these men prosecuted and this system woul have been broken up but this affair had a long-range effect -- through the big concentration camp trials against Commandant Koch, of whom I spoke, and against the head of the political section at Auschwitz -- Criminal Untersturmfuehrer Grabner whom I charged with murder in two thousand cases outside of this action. The whole killing complex had to be brought to judicial condition. It was to suspected, because of these individual crimes, the perpetrators would refer to higher orders. This occurred; thereupon the SS Corps, on the basis of the material which I supplied, it approached the head of the government and officially asked "Did you order these killingIs the legal murder no longer valid ? What orders are there concerning these killings"? Then the supreme head of the state has to denounce these perpetrators and leaves them open to prosecution for the mass exterminations as well or else an open break would have to occur, by putting the whole judicial system out of force.
On the basis of the trials, in Weimar against Koch and Grabner, this problem became acute and these problem were officially asked of the RSHA, as I had foreseen. For this purpose a judge was sent, who had the assignment to investigate in all sections of the RSHA., to see whether such orders were in existence. As I heard, the result was negative. Thereupon, an attempt was made to take steps against Hoess and another but in the meantime, Auschwitz was occupied -- the judge who had been sent there had to stop his investigations and in January 1945 complete disorganization arose which made further prosecution impossible. If I may go back, the immediate effects of the judicial investigation were that in all concentration camps the killing of prisoners by so called "Euthanasia" stopped immediately, because no doctor could feel sure that he would not be arrested on the next day. The example of the doctor of Buchenwald was potent in the minds of all. I am convinced that through this procedure the lives of thousands of prisoners were saved. The killing system itself was severely shaken; but it is noteworthy that shortly after I first approached Kriminalkommissar Wirt, on my second visit to Lublin, I did not find him there. I learned that in the meantime Wirt had received orders to destroy all his extermination camps. He had gone to Istria in the Dalmatian Peninsula, and was guarding streets there. In May 1944 he was killed. When I heard that Wirt and his command had left Lublin I flew there in order to find out whether he was merely transferring his field of activity but that was not ture.
A. It was clear that the discovery of these horrible crimes was extremely unpleasant to those responsible for them. I knew that a human life meant nothing to these people and that they were ready for anything. As proof, I may cite the following. After I had arrested Grabner, the head of the political section in Auschwitz. THE PRESIDENT: You aren't forgetting that you said you were going to take forty-five minutes with this witness, are you, Dr. Pelckmann?
DR. PELCKMANN: I have not forgotten, your Lorsdhip. I regret greatly that it, has taken longer, but I believe that it is necessary to inform the Court about these matters.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems of very little importance whether this man was in danger of his life or not.
DR. PELCKMANN: From the point of view of the defense, your Lordship, I am of a different opinion, for the circumstances and the possibilities of opposing this system and for (1) the decision of the Court of the 13 the of March; and (2) compulsion and order of decisive importance.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, Dr. Pelckmann. The Tribunal does not think it is important.
THE WITNESS: May I say one more sentence on that subject? The investigating commission of the Reich Criminal Police office at Auschwitz was quartered in barracks and after it worked with success for sometime, unknown persons at night destroyed the whole barracks with all the documents by fire The investigations were interrupted and made difficult for some time. You may see from that how ruthless was the opposition to us. I, myself, received enough warnings and threats but whether I was actually in danger of my life, I cannot say. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Did the directing personnel of the camp at Auschwitz give reasons for the assumption that they knew of these exterminations ? If I understood you correctly the concentration camp Auschwitz, with its many labor camps, had nothing to do with and was separate from the extermination camp ?
A. As I have already said, Hoess was simultaneously commandant of Auschwitz and Monowitz, he is to be considered the directing person aside from one fuhrer of the troops in Monowitz. I dealt with these two and these two knew about it.
Q. Did you speak to the doctor of the concentration camp Auschwitz ?
A. Yes. when I arrived, the doctor showed me the mortality figures. He pointed out that from the beginning of his transfer to Auschwitz, these figures had gone down so extensively through extensive precautionary measure He also gave me the leads to Grabner. Grabner had suggested to him to kill pregnant Polish women. The doctor had considered that irreconcilable with his professional ethics. Then Grabner had said that he did not realize the importance of his, Grabner's tasks. The doctor did not give in. A quarrel arose. Neither Hoess nor Grawitz said anything. This doctor at the moment when I met him by accident, was in a conflict and said "What shall I do " ? I said "What you did, absolute refusal, is quite right and tomorrow I will arrest Grabner".
THE PRESIDENT: What does this have to do with the SS unless the doctor was in the SS; perhaps he was.
DR. PELCKMANN: That is about that norm-- that the doctors were SS doctors and the witness is describing how an SS doctor in this concentration camp Auschwitz opposed the suggestion of Grabner. He is describing that is a typical case.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the Tribunal thinks you have been quite long enough over this witness. You are going into matters too much in detail. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. You said that you had reported to the various agencies. Please describe how Nebe reacted; how did Breithaupt react; what did Kaltenbrunner say; what was Pohl's attitude, and how did the Reich Doctor Grawitz react ?
A. First I reported to my immediate superior, SS Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, as chief. He was a silent man but I could see that his hair stood on end literally when I made my report. He was silent. Then he said "I must immediately report this matter to Kaltenbrunner. The Chief of the Hauptamt SS, Obergurppenfuehrer Briethaupt, also became very much excited. He said that would immediately go to see Himmler and report this to him and attempt to have a personal interview with Himmler arranged for me.
The Reich doctor SS didn't know what to say. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl took another attitude. Previously, or about the same time, I had had the Kommandant of the Concentration Camp, Herzogenbosch, arrested, who had brought about the death of ten women. When I reported this to Pohl he said this was a "bagatelle" He said, "what does the lives of ten women matter in view of the thousands of German women dying every night from air raids ?" on the evidence in the corruption cases -- the killing which I discovered was about six months later -- I talked to him in the presence of Nebe, Kaltenbrunner, and Mueller. This discussion was one-sided. Kaltenbrunner and Nebe were absolutely silent. Mueller was furious against me. He was raving mad at me, and did not let me speak. When I looked at him, he suddenly jumped up and hushed out of the room and loft me alone, while the other two gentlemen turned away from me. In the afternoon I went to see Mueller again and personally told him my point of view once again, but Mueller was absolutely against it. Very much.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of this conversation with Kaltenbrunner?
GEORG KONRAD MORGEN : That was immediately after the charge was raised against Grabner. I assume in July or August in 1944.
A No. I wanted to inform those people and win them over to my point of view, they who really had something to say. Nothing else. In addition, through Basic Order Number 1, concerning secrecy and state affairs, I was bound and could only approach the Chief of the main offices of the SS personnel. Any report to other agencies would have had serious results.
THE PRESIDENT : Doctor Pelckmann, he said he did not report it surely that is sufficient. We don't want to know more about it. He did not report. We are not trying the witness.
DR. PELCKMANN : I believe it is a mistake, if I understand it correctly, your Lordship. He said he did report if THE PRESIDENT : He said he made no other report, as I understood it, except this that he has spoken of.
Q Witness, will you comment on that?
A That is true. .Aside from the Chief of the main office of the SS, no one else was reported. public or to cry "murder" ? press and radio, which I did not have. If I announced that to the world from many street corners, no one would have believed me because this system was beyond human imagination. I would have been locked up as insane. as a pure extermination camp by the prosecution and by the witnesses. Is that true? investigation from May to July 1944, I believe that I know it rather well. I must say that I had the opposite impression. The Concentration Camp Dachau was always considered a very good come a recreation camp among the prisoners, and I actually did ain this impression. and so forth?
must say the hospital was in excellent order. I went through all the wards. There was no overcrowding. The amount of medical instruments was astonishing, which were at the service of the prisoners.
Q That's enough. You want to say that conditions were good? That you are in contradiction to the testimony of the witness, Doctor Blaha, which was made here. Do you know his Testimony? and had another opportunity to look through the record of the trial. I must say that this testimony surprises no greatly, I an of the opinion that Blaha, from his own knowledge, cannot make such statements. A prisoner in a Concentration Camp cannot move about freely and cannot have access.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks he can say disagrees with the evidence of Blaha and not that Blaha was not telling the truth. He disagrees, he said it, camp think you might got on. How much more time do you need?
DR. PELCKMANN : 5 minutes, your Lordship. not agree with the testimony of Blaha?
THE PRESIDENT: He has given has own evidence about the matter, and he says he is in contradiction with Plain. Couldn't want further details about it.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, if I understand correctly, the witness is to give creditable testimony. If he does not say that on such and such points of the testimony of Blaha, I have such and such objection, the prosecution can say he did not comment on it. That is my endeavor. Please instruct me, your Lordship, if I am mistaken.
THE PRESIDENT : He has given his account on the camp at Dachau, The Tribunal has before it the evidence and testimony of Blaha. The Tribunal can see if the evidence is incorrect. That is sufficient.
DR. PELCKMANN : If the Court does not wish it, I will withdraw the question.
Q Will you briefly sum up? I will be on to the next question which is of importance to your credibility. Did you give this testimony once before as you have given it here?
A Yes. I came to Germany after a long time, I heard the CIC was looking for the about my information about Concentration Camps. I reported to the CIC Chief Headquarters Mannheim, 7th Army, and said I was ready to help clear up these crimes. I gave my testimony as I have attempted to do today. I went to the CIC Headquarters, Inspector Oberursel, and after the conclusion of that testimony, I was put in Dachau, together with the accused I had arrested.
Q. Do you know the writings,"SS Dachau" which I submitted to the Tribunal yesterday, which is Exhibit SS-4? Do you know it? Answer yes or no.
Q On page 46, there is the testimony of a Mrs. M.H. Was this testimony made before you as the investigating Judge?
A Yes, this was a Mrs. Eleanore Hodis from Auschwitz. I questioned her.
Q. And did you examine the article and make certain this was the evidence which the woman gave? Yes or no.
A. Yes.
Q. When was that approximately?
Q The testimony is against Hoess?
A. Yes.
Q Were proceedings instituted against Hoess?
A Yes. The testimony of Hodis was submitted to Hoess in the original. that true?
Q If does not concern the situation in Dachau?
DR. MERKEL: Mr. President, concerning non-participation and ignorance on the part of the Gestapo as far as the mass production is concerned, I should like to be permitted to put three brief questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: You may.
DR. MERKEL: Thank you very much. BY DR. MERKEL: kommissar in Lublin were discovered because of a report of the Security Police in Lublin. In this way was the security police in Lublin responsible for participating in this crime?
A No. I did not understand that. were under the supervision of the Security Police. Is that correct?
A I know nothing about that. Wirt pictured the situation to me. I believe the name Treblinka was mentioned in that connection.
Q According to your conviction, this camp as well was under Wirt?
A. I assumed that.
Q Did you wish to execute an order to prosecute Eichmann? basis of my report. The SS Court in Berlin, thereupon, advised the Chief of the RSHA, that was Kaltenbrunner, to submit an order to intern him. Dr. Bachmann, the SS Judge in Berlin, reported to me that on the submission of this matter, rather dramatic incidents took place. Kaltenbrunner immediately called in Mueller, and now the judge was told that was not to be considered in any event for Eichmann was carrying out a special secret task entrusted to him by the Fuehrer in a mission of utmost importance.
Q When was that?
DR. MERKEL: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
DR. GAWLIK: On behalf of the SD, Your lordship, may I be permitted to put a few questions, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, you mentioned the orders of the RSHA. From which office did those orders come?
A You mean the orders for the mass production?
Q Answer the question briefly, please. Which offices issued those orders? that, to my knowledge.
Q You mentioned the orders of the RSHA, did you not? because of the killings they committed that they referred to the RSHA and said that these orders would have to be destroyed upon receipt. That was a pure and simple statement. That was the reason why this statement had to be checked and proved. way participating in these measures in any way?
Q Can you answer this question with a pure yes or no?
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The Prosecution very carefully consider. the question of cross examining this witness, We do not accept his evidence as to Buchenwald, Dachau and as to conditions in concentration camps generally. We feel the Tribunal has been shown so, an overwhelming amount of evidence including films and exhibits of the consistent pattern of cruelties in the concentration camps, of the smelling chimneys of the Crematoria and of the persons who carried out these actions, that we consider that any further destruction of these matters should be by way of comment and that it would not be right to take up the time of the Tribunal by confronting this witness with the details of that evidence which is sc fully in the Tribunal's mind.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
Is that your case?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution wants to cross examine the witness Sievers. We will call for Wolfram Sievers. follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: the pure truth and will withheld, and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES: the Ahnenerbe (Ancestral Hermitage Society), were you not? Commissioner appointed by this Tribunal? the Commission.
Do you recollect that Dr. Pelckmann, the counsel for the SS, announced that he was calling you to show that this Ahnenerbe did not know of the biological experiments of the group by Dr. Rascher, performed on concentration camp inmates? that when Dr. Pelckmann asked you:
"Did you have any possibility of being on the inside with regard to the relationship or the planning of the methods or carrying out of these scientific research works of the military scientific department" you answered "No"? telling the Commissioner that Himmler and Rancher were very close friends and you did not know exactly what went on? Do you remember that?
A I said that only in general but not in particular. I was informed about these matters.
Q In my final question to you in cross-examination I asked you:
"How many people do you estimate were murdered in connection with Rascher and the other experiments carried out under the guise of Nazi science" and to that question you gave this answer:
"I cannot say because I had no insight into these matters."
Do you remember that on page 1939 of the transcript?
these matters.
Did you ever hear of Professor Hirt's skeleton collection? University of Strassburg.
Q I asked you did you hear about it? of skeletons, did you not?
Q You played an active part in the collection of those skeletons?
It is an insertion into the Tribunal's document book at page 1901. It follows page 19 in your Lordship's document book. It will be Exhibit GB 573.
Now we shall be able to test your ignorance of this collection. This is a letter from Brandt to the Main Office for the Security of the Reich, dated 6 November, 1942.
Brandt was Himmler's agent, was he not?
Q Now, this letter --:
"Subject: Organization of a skeleton collection in the Anatomical Institute of Strassburg.
"The Reichsfuehrer SS has ordered that everything necessary for the research work of SS Captain (Hauptsturmfuehrer) Professor Dr. Hirt, who is at the same time director of a branch of the Institute for Military Scientific Researches for Specific Purposes in the Office Ahnenerbe should be placed at his disposal. By order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, I therefore request you to make the organization of the planned skeleton collection possible. The SS Lt. Colonel (Obersturmbannfuehrer) Sievers will contact you for details."
Now, that Sievers is you, is it not?
Q Were you contacted for details? department of anatomy at the University of Strassburg which had been newly taken over and this was a matter or reconstruction of the so-called Anatomical Museum, something quite customary with all universities everywhere.
Q This was just a piece of academic research, was it?
Q Where were you going to get the skeletons from? the answer to it.
Where were you going to get those skeletons from?
Q Now, I want you to look at a letter in furtherance of Brandt's communication which you sent to Brandt, containing suggestions as to where those skeletons should come from.
It is document number 085, which will be GB 574. It is at page 11 of the document book, my Lord. It is at page 14 and 15 of the German document book.
Now, that is a letter headed "The Ahnenerbe", dated 9 February, 1942, marked "secret". It is addressed to Brandt, Himmler's adjutant. It is your letter, witness, is it not, it is your signature at the bottom of it?
"Dear Comrade Brandt:
"Professor Dr. Hirt's report, which you requested in your letter of 29 December, 1941, is submitted in the enclosure. I was not able to send it to you before because Professor Hirt was taken ill sometime later."
"Because of this Professor Hirt was merely able to write a preliminary report which, however, I should like to submit to you. The report concerns:
"1. His research in the field of microscoping living organs; the discovery of a new method of examination and the construction of a new research microscope.
"2. His proposal for securing skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars." Then there is your signature and you forwarded that letter and Professor Hirt's report and his suggestions ant this is Hirt's report:
"Subject: Security skulls of Jewish-Bolshevik commissars for the purpose of scientific research at the Reichsuniversity, Strassburg.
"We have a nearly complete collection of skulls of all races and peoples at our disposal. Of the Jewish race, however, only very few specimen of skull: are available, with the result that it is impossible to arrive at precise conclusions from examining them. The war in the east now presents us with the opportunity to overcome this deficiency. By procuring the skulls of the Jewish Bolshevik commissars, who represent the prototype of the repulsive, but characteristic subhuman, we have the chance now to obtain a palpable, scientific document.
"The best, practical method for obtaining and collecting this skull material could be handled by directing the Wehrmacht to turn over alive all captured Jewish Bolshevik commissars to the Field Police. The Feldpolizei in turn, is to be given special directives to inform a certain office at regular intervals of the number and place of detention of these captured Jews and to give them special close attention and care until a special delegate arrives. This special delegate, who will be in charge of securing the material (a junior physician of the Wehrmacht or even the Feldpolizei or a student of medicine equipped with a motor car and driver), has the job of taking a series of previously established photographs, anthropological measurements and in addition, has to determine other personal data of the prisoners.
"Following the subsequently induced death of the Jew, whose head should not be damaged, the delegate will separate the head from the body and will forward it to its proper point of destination in a hermetically sealed tin can, especially produced for this purpose and filled with a conserving fluid. Having arrived at the laboratory, the comparison tests and anatomical research on the skull, as well as determination of the race membership of pathological features of the skull form, the form and size of the brain, etc. can proceed. The basis of these studios will be the photos, measurements and ether data supplied on the head and finally the tests of the skull itself."
That was the report which you forwarded to Brandt?
Q How did the collection of these skeletons from the living proceed?
A I cannot give you the exact details. In previous or earlier interrogations I referred to the fact that as far as this matter is concerned, Professor Hirt would have to be asked himself. truth. regard to the progress of that collection of skulls and skeletons?
A That may be seen from the report itself. When persons were put at our disposal this was at the order of Himmler. it, with the collection of the bodies? what manner this entire thing arose for direct correspondence and conferences had taken place previously between Himmler and Hirt and these are things I know nothing about. yourself from perjury. You have not taken it. Look at the next document number 86, which is on page 13 of the document book. It will be GB 575. That is another of your letters.
It is another letter of yours, again to Himmler's adjutant. It is marked "Secret". It is dated 2 November 1942. Page 13 of your document book, my Lord.
"As you know, the Reichsfuehrer-SS has directed that SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Professor Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything needed for his experiments. For certain anthropological experiments -- I already reported to the Reichsfuehrer-SS on them -- 150 skeletons of prisoners or Jews are required, which are to be supplied by the KL Auschwitz. The only thing that remains to be done is that the RSHA receive an official directive from the Reichsfuehrer-SS. This, however, can also be given by you, acting for the Reichsfuehrer-SS". not ? You were his agent for collecting these living men to turn them into skeletons ?
A. That does not apply in this way, in this form. The entire matter covered such a long period of time, and I was concerned only with particulars, that I am not able right now in a hurry to reconstruct the entire connection and coherence.
Q. I am sure you are in a hurry to reconstruct them, but I am sure you should. For the second time in regard to this matter you have taken an oath, and I want you to give some indication that you know what an oath means. You are a man of education. to how distand you were from this matter.
THE PRESIDENT: It came through 089. Do you mean 087 ?
MR. ELWYN JONES: 089, page 16 of your Lordship's document book. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. That is a letter from Brandt, to the RSHA dated 6 November 1942, marked "Secret". It is for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann of the RSHA. Reference is "Establishment of a collection of skeletons at the Anatomical Institute at Strass burg."