Right, law and including international law was taught not only in the Junker schools of the SS but legal lectures were given to the entire units and the chief legal department of the SS, as the central department, issued mat erial to take care of it so the these principles of cleanliness and decency became common property of all the members of the SS. Legal education in the SS, as it was being handled, means precisely the opposite of what has been stated by the Prosecution. fight against crime before and during the war just proves how necessary that was because there was nothing but criminals in the SS. Would they be right if they said that?
A Oh no, they wouldn't be right. Special principles were applied to the SS. It was the duty of the SS to adopt a particularly ethical attitude. Thus, a man in the SS would become more guilty if he would infringe on the legal situation and he would, therefore, be more severely penalzed. That is the reason which explains the more severe punishment inflicted upon SS members in comparison to members of the armed forces or German civilians.
Q Himmler Was the chief judge, was he not? What position did he occupy? For instance, could he order a court to issue a certain penalty or pass judgement? As the chief judge he used the right given to him by Hitler by decree to squash proceedings in only very few cases. The judge was free to apply the law. The law guaranteed his independance. The findings and sentences of the SS courts came about by means of vote and the principle of majority was applied and interference of the highest judge, that is Himmler, could therefore not be possible, However, the supreme judge had the right to confirm or cancel judgement or sentences, that is to say, he could have a case re-tried if he did not agree with the sentence. But here again the courts of the SS always adhered to the existing laws and asserted their will. times because he considered the penalty too high or too low and the same findings and sentences were repeated by these courts, if it were inaccordance with law and eventually, in that waym they asserted themselves.
the legal system contradicts the assertion of the Prosecution, namely, that the SS had been designed for purposes for which neither the party nor the state wished to assume responsibility. the historical development of the SS and the fact is that the apparently unbridg eable gap between the statement of the Prosecution and my testimony is due to the fact that the Prosecution simply consider the SS as a single unit from the point of view of its organization, which it has never been. point of view of the Prosecution. Wherever the state executive acted it was the SS which acted, according to the point of view of the Prosecution. These connect ions, from the organizational point of view, did not exist and that is why the allegations of the Prosecution, as far as that is concerned, are not correct. documents which dealt with crimes committed particularly by members of the Waffen SS. It is necessary for me to ask you, therefore, is it right that the Waffen SS in occupied territories and at the front committed crimes against the civilian population and was it crimes committed systematically and in violation of international agreement, in violation of local penal law and the general principles of penal law of all civilized nations?
A No. There can be no question of that. It is clear that even on the part of the Waffen SS in individual cases there were violations of international law, just as that happened on the other side, as well. But all these are individual occurrences and there is no system behind it. All these individual perpetrations were prosecuted under the legal system of the SS and the police in the most severemanner. In the chief department of the SS courts there existed an institution, central supervision, as it was called, which guaranteed the correctness of the entire handling of the matter and I can testify from that point of view in this Courtroom, that in such individual cases the courts in every theatre of war and during the entire duration of the war were passing sentences because of murder, looting, assault and rape, ill-treatment and even for killing prisoners of war, in connectionwith which the race or nationality of the person concerned had no influence. All these were individual deeds an it was not done systematically.
This is proved by the statistics of the chief department of the SS; the legal system wasmost strictly applied and criminality varied from 8 per cent at the beginning to 3 per cent at the end of the war and in that way it remains below the normal level. submitted here, there appears to have been a prohibition of the prosecution of such crimes. Is that not a contradiction of your testimony regarding the prosecution of such cases in sentences passed? reference to cancelling the necessity of prosecuting such cases. Nevertheless, the prosecution of such cases was left to the discretion of the courts. During my entire period of long practice I know of no cases -
THE RESIDENT: What is the reference to the order of Hitler?
DR. PELCKMANN: I am afraid, at this moment, much as I regret it, I cannot give your Lordship the number. That is the order Which came out before the beginning of the Russian campaign and in which it is stated that only for the maintenance of discipline perpetrations of the troops should be prosecuted. If you will permit me to do so, I shall give you the number tomorrow.
Now, Mr. President, I have only one more question.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President. I can give you that. the bands and it is USSR 16.
THE PRESIDENT: You say you have only one more question?
DR. PELCKMANN: I have only one more question and then I will have terminate? this particular chapter and I will start a new one, if I may do so, in the morning.
Q It has been alleged by the Prosecution, Mr. Witness, that so-called court: martial of the SS and the Police existed under the cover of a legal system and that they were murdering civilian population in occupied territories. What is the conception of the Court Martial of the SS and Police?
A Such Courts Martial of the SS and Police never existed at any time. There were, as I know from my own experience, courts martial in Poland, courts martial which came from the security police. have now just recently learned that such courts martial existed also in the remaining occupied territories. These were courts martial operated by the Security Police, that is to say, it was an affair entirely of the Police, which had nothing whatever to do with the legal system of the SS and the Police. THE PRESIDENT: Well now, will you tell us what are the subjects upon which you are going to question this witness tomorrow?
DR. PELCKMANN: The system of concentration camps and the SS legal system.
THIS PRESIDENT: You have been dealing with the SS legal system today. That is the subject you have just concluded. You have told us that the judges of the SS were independant. That is the part of the legal system, isn't it?
DR. PELCKMANN: No, I mean to put special questions dealing with the legal system in concentration camps. They are practical questions, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: What questions are you going to deal with?
DR. PELCKMANN: Tomorrow I would you to deal with the concentration camp system and the SS and Police legal system and the connection between the two.
THE PRESIDENT: I have got down that you are going to deal with the concentration camps and the legal system in concentration camps. What else?
DR. PELCKMANN: Notheing else, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal wishes me to tell you that they think you have been much too long and they will expect you to be much shorter tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 August 1946 at 1000 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Pelckmann. BY DR. PELCKMANN (Counsel for SS):
Q Mr. Witness, before passing on to the new subject which I will deal with in my questions, I have one more question which refers to the examination carried on yesterday. on the occasion of the submitting of a document or granting from a cavalry brigade of the SS, I was afraid, as I gather from certain statements, that this brigade night be mixed up with the cavalry Storm troops of the General SS. I draw the attention of the High Tribunal, in this connection, to the testimony given by witness von BoikowskiBidan before the Commission and I merely beg to be allowed to ask this witness in which way the cavalry troops of the General SS differ from the formation which I have just mentioned. General SS just as, for instance, the motor storm troops of the General SS were. They had nothing whatever to do with the later cavalry units of the Waffen SS which were not built up on the strength of these cavalry storm troops. describing the atrocities in concentration camps. It has been alleged by the Prosecution that the conditions were the outcome of a consequent policy of the SS. Can you, as a high ranking judge, define your attitude with reference to that allegation? Did the legal system of the SS, for instance, gain knowledge of these events, and if so, did it remain silent? atrocities as to conditions shown in these pictures, there can be no question whatsoever. In concentration camps frightful cruelties were committed but the film showed the outcome of the total collapse of the German Reich and its influence upon concentration camps. That means that it does not represent their normal condition.
Normal conditions were absolutely different. I can certainly pass judgment on that point because the legal system of the SS and the police was using all means at its disposals.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the witness speaking from personal observation of the concentration camps?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, Mr. President, he is just about to explain that.
THE WITNESS: I can pass judgment on that subject because the legal system of the SS and the police was using every means at its disposal, sometimes even overstepping its own authority to stop these cruelties by legal means. We had investigating commissions in these concentration camps who reported to me repeatedly about the conditions in the camps. take steps against such conditions then that was only so because here We were not concerned with a constant policy of the SS but with criminal perpetrations of individual persons and small groups and also individual highly placed superiors but these were not committed by the SS as an organization. In order to fight against these crimes and in order to clean the SS of such criminal elements the legal system became active.
DR. PELCKMANN: I am going to quote from a document already submitted by the Prosecution. It is the Prosecution document E-168. Sub-department for Concentration Camps, reference (b), your Honor, We are concerned here with instructions given to the first medical officers in concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document?
DR. PELCKMANN: It is a document already submitted by the Prosecution E 168 and it- is in the official document book
THE PRESIDENT: I cannot hear what the reference is. Is it "D", dawn or (The Interpreter:
"E", easy -- 168).
THE PRESIDENT: What is the exhibit number?
DR. PELCKMANN: Unfortunately I am not in a position to tell you at the present time. I beg to apologize.
In that document, it says amongst other things:
"With such a high death figure the number of detainees can never be brought to the level demanded by the Reichsfuehrer SS if death figures are as high as this. The first medical camp officer must use every means at their disposal in order to reduce the death rate in the various camps to a considerable extent. It is not the best medical officer in a concentration camp who believes that by undue hardship be must stand out. The best medical officer is the man who, by means of supervision and exchange at the various places of work, achieves the figures which are as high as possible.
"Medical officers in the camps should supervise the feeding of the prisoners more often than before and with the approval of the administration they should submit suggestions for improvements to the camp commandant. Naturally they must not merely be on paper but camp medical officers should check them regularly. Apart from that, the medical officers ought to see to it that the working conditions at the various places of work should be improved as much as possible. It is necessary for that reason that medical officers should inspect the places of work thoroughly and convince themselves as to the working conditions.
"The Reichsfuehrer SS has ordered that the death rate must be reduced at all costs."
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you understand that we don't wish to have -Can't you hear ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has indicated to the Prosecution they don't want to hear these documents read which have already been put in evidence, and there you are reading every word of this document.
DR. PELCKMANN: Very well, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have a question to put upon it, you may
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, I Understand, Mr. President. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Did you, Mr. Witness, know anything about the question whether such orders were actually obeyed in concentration camps ?
A. The investigating commission of the Chief Department of the Legal System of the SS had repeatedly confirmed to me during personal reports that such orders were in fact put into practice inside the camps. They reported to me that the accommodations, the hygiene, the medical supervision and the feeding and also the treatment of the detainees was good in most parts. The same applied to the physical appearance of the prisoners. They also confirmed that the strict prohibition of ill treatment of detainees was repeatedly make known in the camp, and was, in fact, observed. quite a different one seen from a outside, The cleanliness and the development of the working program without friction becomes apparent. If crimes were committed in concentration camps, they then occurred in such a manner that they remained hidden from the outside world, even from the inmates of the camp in fact, and as far as they were not participating in them, they could not have observed them.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that you personally received this letter or that you had these facts before you ?
WITNESS: From these investigating Commissions I received reports which were put before me personally, and from these reports I was able to gather the facts which I have just stated.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, you knew in December 1942 that 70,000 arrivals in concentration camps, out of 136,000, had died did you ?
WITNESS: No, that wasn't known to me at the time. I shall have to supplement my testimony by stating an answer which was to occur in connection with a later question, namely that the Chief SS Court only dealt with these investigating commissions during the second half of 1943 in order to discover crimes committed in concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you said in answer to my question, "These facts were known to me."
Go on, Dr. Pelckmann.
DR. PELCKMANN: In this connection, I draw the attention of the Tribunal to supplement the Tribunal's knowledge to my affidavit SS No. 65 to 67 which in its entirety, and in accordance with my application, has been translated. It was submitted by a judge who led these investigations, and it reports numerous further details. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. To what extent did the legal system of the SS operate the legal system in concentration camps ?
A. Jurisdiction of the legal system of the SS did not include detainees in concentration camps. Responsibility for those was entirely under the ordinary German legal system, To a certain extent the proceedings did come under the SS legal system, even concerning political section who were in concentration camps. This is subject to the fact that the investigating department of the RSHA would have preference in this connection. Guards and members of the Kommandant staff in concentration camps came under the jurisdiction of the legal system to its full extent and to the extent of courts martial.
Q. You have already mentioned, Mr. Witness, that the prosecution of crimes in concentration camps began in 1943 as far as the legal system of yours was concerned. when in 1943 ?
A. It was during the second half of 1943. It was then that the legal system on the occasion of a case of corruption against the former camp commandant Koch, found traces of crimes which had been committed in other camps. It was from that moment that the legal system became active.
Q. When how is it that the legal system became operative so very late ?
A. There were so-called legal officers attached to concentration camps. They were carrying out supervisory activities. These legal officers, who were the instruments of the judges in question, had the task in connection with any crimes that might occur to produce so-called reports of evidence. These reports were then submitted to the courts in order to enable them to prosecute the crimes.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think he gave an answer to your question at all. Your question was: How was it that it was so late as the second half of 1943 that these investigating commissions began to become active ? He didn't answer that question at all.
DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, the witness hasn't quite finished. I was merely putting an intermediary question. In his further reply it will become quite clear. I merely have an intermediate question. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Did these legal officers come under your jurisdiction in the Chief Department of the SS legal system, or the SS legal system generally, or under whose jurisdiction did they come ?
A. The legal officer did not come under the organization of the legal system but he was an official of the Supreme Judge, in whose hands there were the investigations.
Q. Well then, who was that in concentration camps ?
A. In the case of concentration camps, it was in the hands of Oswald Pohl who was mentioned yesterday.
Q. Now, will you please continue to answer the question. How did it happen that the legal system learned of the atrocities so late ?
A. The reason was that earlier the legal system hadn't had any suspicions, and that in turn was due to the fact that these legal officers, during the years until 1943, were continuously supporting such reports on evidence to the courts.
These reports on evidence were worked out most exactly. In the case of any unnatural deaths of detainees, they contained photographs of the place of the crime, medical reports, statements from witnesses, both detainee and guards, and that work was carried out with such exactness that the suspicion couldn't arise that here, behind the backs of these legal officers, crimes could have been committed. against the criminal in evert case, and such sentences continued throughout all the years. actual conditions have been covered up in that manner ?
A. That is partly the case. I have just said that during the second half of 1943 we commenced with investigations in the camp of Buchenwald. In 1941 we had carried out such an investigation in Buchenwald, which, however had no result. that in 1941 the Kommandant, Koch, had used forted reports, forged witnessed and forged medical reports which had deceived the investigating judges. Then we carried out investigations in other camps, and on that occasion we discovered that in other camps these evidence reports had been in order.
Q. Now will you please describe to us the further advances made by the SS local system against crimes in concentration camps.
A. The traces and clues in the camp of Buchenwald were manifold and they led us to many camps. The subject was growing from month to month. It was discovered that the organizations who were carrying out investigations on beh of the legal system were utterly unsuitable for carrying out such a purely criminal investigation. It was because the legal system, characteristic for a military legal system, lacked the fundamental structure and that was an authority capable of carrying out criminal prosecutions. For that reason, judges, were sent to short courses, receiving criminal training and simultaneously, in collaboration with the RSHA, experts from the Reich Criminal Police Department were brought into the investigation of these crimes.
tinuously until the collapse. The Chief Department of the SS Legal System as such created a special court for special purposes which had almost exclusively the task of dealing judicially with these crimes committed in concentration camps. In the Chief Department of the SS Legal System, which was the central directing department of the legal system, a special chief department was created from which investigations which were going on in concentration camps were supervised centrally. And the task of the Chief Staff Legal Department was taken over by this department.
Q. Now, in order to summarize briefly, what was the outcome of the fight against crime in concentration camps by the SS legal system?
A. Altogether, approximately 800 cases were investigated. Four hundred of these eight hundred cases began by coming into the court and 200 out of those 400 were dealt with by a judicial sentence. Among the cases under investigation there Were proceedings against five commandants of concentration camps, proceedings against two commands to be completed; and a death sentence by shooting was passed.
Q. Did your commission encounter any difficulties on the occasion of these investigations?
A. The most considerable difficulties were put in the way of these commissions. These difficulties originated with Polh, who was using every means at his disposal and all his power to prevent any further advances from being made by these investigating commission, advances into the actual material of the nature of the crimes. In that master, the Legal System, after being unable to make any advances, and having to loosen every piece of evidence from the secrecy of the matter, was forced to work together with detainees. In almost every camp such commissions were active. There were confidence men who Were recruited from among the detainees, who were submitting material to the investigating judges. But then it was equally difficult to not these detainees to cooperate, because if their activities were afraid of being destroyed.
Q. But could you not then remove these obstacles by means of reports, say for instance, reports made to Himmler -- Pohl, as far as I know, was directly subordinate to Himmler -- so that Himmler could have given him corresponding orders?
A. Pohl did not act as cooperatively as that. As far as these matters were concerned, he acted as if he were supporting the investigating work of the legal system with all his force, exactly as if he were in favor of it; and it was in that manner that he reported the matter to Himmler. After we pointed out to Himmler the somewhat doubtful role played by Pohl, in reality Pohl was combatting with oil the means of his tremendously powerful position the investigations we were making, and he was working with the detainees hand in glove, as we have proved on the strength of the evidence. 1941, when our first investigation took place in the concentration camps at Buchenwald in that field, as I have described, he wrote a letter to the camp commandant Koch, which I have read myself. The contents of the letter were the following:
"I shall use all the power of my position to protect you if once again an unemployed lawyer is fixing his henchmen's hands towards your innocent white character." up in the death machinery of the concentration camps, but to a similar extent he became the most corrupt person in the entire Reich, something of which we found evidence towards the end of the war, evidence which we obtained through various proceedings against organizations which he headed in private business. As head of that criminal clique, he actually brought it about with the French that the system of confidence men among the detainees should be destroyed, a system which he knew might endanger his own person. name of Rote was lock up by his orders, and by means of an order from the RSHA, the Reich criminal police department, which he was trying to bring about, this detainee was to be hanged publicly before the detainees who were to be lined up, which would serve the purpose of setting an example and also to make it impossible to carry out the investigating work by the Legal System
Q. Will you go more slowly, witness? These are important statements, and the translating of them is not simple.
A. One of the investigating officers working for us noted these facts i due time, and he was able to prevent this action by Pohl at the last moment. That was how this criminal Pohl was acting. The most important support in his fight against the Legal System was the Fuehrer Order No. 1, about secrecy, however, which was visible in every department of the SS machinery. It was according to that order that the matters which were to be kept secret could only be communicated to such persons as were immediately concerned, and even those could be told only as much as they had to know. And even that applied only to the period during which the particular individual was acting.
Everything in concentration camps was secret; only with special passes and authority was it possible to enter them. The work carried out by detainees was secret, supposedly because they were producing "V" weapons. The existence of the detainees was secret, supposedly for reasons of counter-intelligence. The correspondence was headed, "Secret Reich Matter", and for that reason it could not be looked at all. For years Pohl could hide himself behind this, and it was thus that the progressive Legal System would only gain ground step by step if on the strength of individual perpetration he was cornered systematically.
Q. Then, Mr. Witness, do you believe that with the results that you have just described, the actual existing extenf of crimes would be gotten at by you, the extent of which we have heard during this trial?
A. As I know it today, no. And the reason for that is this. The Legal Systems of the SS or police were dealing with all these crimes as individual crimes, and the system of criminality as it is recognizable today could not be penetrated for a number of years.
When toward the end of 1944 the Legal System bad succeeded in tracing down the criminal Pohl and the criminal Gawitz, and Mueller, from the Gestapo, who was covering up the crimes, to corner these people on the strength of individual evidence, it was the first time these men referred to an "order from above". The investigation which now commenced, carried out by the legal system, went down during the collapse of Germany's resistance towards the end of the war.
complex of criminally mass exterminations? existence, but that they were concerned with mass extermination to a tremendous degree wasn't recognizable even then. just described, was responsible for the crimes which had become known? medical officer of the SS and Police, Grawitz, and next to him the Chief of the Gestapo, Mueller. Over and above that, Commandants of concentration camps, members of the Commandants' Staff, medical officers in concentration camps, and to a very considerable degree, criminal detainees in the concentration camps. of persons which you have just mentioned participated in the crimes without any difference?
A No, that isn't right. The investigations which we carried out proved clearly that certain camps were perfectly in order., that not every commandant was a criminal and that many members of the commandants' staffs knew nothing about crimes. The same applied to medical officers, but that most of all the guards in concentration camps had nothing Whatever to do with the crimes because they themselves were unable to gain insight into the events inside concentration camps. of Buchenwald, whose name was Koch. He has already been mentioned in this court room. Sometime earlier the prosecution had alleged, with reference to an examination of the detainee called Blaha, that Koch had been sentenced for embezzlement and the murder of three detainees. The way the prosecution described the situation was that at that time the SS court had simply bypassed the numerous remaining cases of killings. Is that correct, as far as you know?
A No, that is not correct. The source of the proceedings against Koch was a case of corruption, which was yet another reason why he was sentenced to death. The actual contents of the findings against Koch and the reason for his being sentenced to death was the system of murder invented and pursued by Koch in many cases.
This type of findings had to be chosen because so many crimes committed by Koch were on record committed very recently whereas traces had been eliminated so that it would have taken many months, in fact years, if these individual cases had been cleared up -- if they could have been cleared up at all. It was for that reason that we were acting, using the shortest possible evidence, in order to stop Koch's activities at once, and it was for that reason that those three cases were taken up, being typical. He was sentenced, however, because of the system of murder adopted in the concentration camp of Buchenwald.
DR. PELCKMANN: The testimony of this witness about these events is supported by the affidavits SS 65, 64, 66 -- I beg your pardon -- yes, 66, 67, 68 and 69. Please, would you be good enough to strike off 68; 68 does not apply: 64, 65, 67 and 69. These affidavits come from the investigating judge. The investigating judge, Dr. Morgen, ought to appear here as a witness. Unfortunately, it was only at the beginning of July that he arrived. just before the hearings before the Commission were terminated, and I haven't been able to prepare him in time for his examination. I have submitted his affidavit, however, and the High Tribunal will no doubt be able to judge Whether it might possibly be necessary to hear this man as a witness since we are here concerned with the most important matters. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q What was Himmler's attitude with regard to these investigations? Himmler was given a report on the matter at once. Himmler was currently kept informed about the progress made by the proceedings. Himmler displayed considerable activity. He himself ordered that the investigation was to be carried out in the strictest manner. It Was only with his authority that it was possible to as much as pass through the gates of concentration camps. In the middle of 1944 an order to the contrary from Himmler suddenly appeared. He, as supreme judge of the SS Legal System, ordered that the proceedings against Koch should bring to an end any judicial investigation inside concentration camps. Koch would be sentenced to death and he would be publicly hanged before the detainees.
Pohl was to direct the hanging personally and he would speak appropriate words to the guards, who would fall in. The remaining perpetrators would report their crimes voluntarily and in the event of such a voluntary report he might possibly reprieve them. Anyone not reporting in time could only expect death through judicial sentence. The chief of the main department of the SS legal system rejected this order from Himmler. He did not, however, achieve a final decision from Himmler, but Himmler tolerated it in the future that further proceedings were thrown out. The chief department of the SS legal system intentionally did not yet complete the case against Koch at that moment in order to have the possibility of extending the investigating activities to other camps, something which was actually achieved. The commissions from the criminal police department, which was withdrawn already on the strength of Himmler's orders, once more became active, and from the autumn of '44 further investigations were carried out on the broadest basis. Orders which were necessary for the purpose encountered Pohl's continuous resistance and they were issued, therefore, by the personal judge of the Reichsfuehrer, and that man not even Pohl succeeded in bypassing.
DR. PELCKMANN: The details of this dramatic play between Pohl, Himmler and the SS legal system are also described in Dr. Morgen's affidavits.
Q Did you, Mr. Witness, discover measures, in the course of these investigations, or orders from Himmler or Hitler regarding the biological extermination of Jewry?
A No. We neither ever saw such orders nor did we ever succeed, on the strength of our investigating work, to get hold of them or to gain knowledge of them in any other manner. Such incredible orders were unimagined to us. Himmler had always shown us his ideal fact, cleanliness, decency, fight against crime at all costs. At the end of 1943 he told me personally, on the occasion of a report, that he was confirming these principles expressly. That a system of mass extermination could exist here was an idea which, considering the existing circumstances and situations, no one could possibly think upon. In concentration camps We found incredibly horrible conditions and we learned certain matters which had shaken us, but that thought did not exist. Names like Hoess and Eichmann did crop up during our proceedings and proceedings were, in fact, instituted against both, which at the end of the war were still in their initial stages; but Hoess and Eichmann were names, as far as we were concerned, just like Brown or Jones.
No one could possibly expect that behind these men there were hiding the henchmen of a dreadful system of extermination. When, at the end of 44 and the beginning of '45, were approaching the actual extent of crimes in concentration camps somewhat more closely, when we discovered that crimes were being carried out by order, this system of defense between Pohl, Mueller and Grawitz still appeared incredible, because if actual orders from above had been available and carried out by these three persons, then it would have been easy for them, no doubt, to go to Himmler and to demand the exclusion of the legal system from these matters.