Globocnik was neither acting on behalf of the General SS and Waffen SS, or for them. The document shows clearly that it was his special personal part or task given to Globocnik by Himmler, a task which has nothing to do with the two organizations mentioned. groups which had also been regarded as one unit by the prosecution, did they have any connection with concentration camps? We had not yet come to the system of the concentration camps. How did the concentration camp system fit into the SS and was there an organic tie between the system and the concentration camps and the SS?
AAn organic tie did not exist. The management of the concentration camp system was therefore a task for the Reich. With such personnel, such members of the General SS and small portions of the SS, and members of the small unions, and finally members of the armed forces, were transferred to guard duties in concentration camps. The system of concentration camps, and according to its purpose, had a character similar to that of the police. The carrying out of the task for the Reich was given to Himmler in 1932 or 1934. The special organization formed was called at that time, the "Totenkopf", the Death Head Units. That organization too did not originate in the General SS. The first guard for the concentration camps were to a very small degree former members of the General SS. They were also members of the SA and other personnel. They were members of the party, and people who had belonged to no party, which was of course in accordance with the conditions of the tire. There were also unemployed and required work and food, and who had to be put to work. From these initial stages, the Death Head Units continued to develop and they were given 6 Aug A LJG 20-3 police training.
In 1939, they joined the Waffen SS organization, which Was at that time being formed.
The task of guarding concentration camps now became the task of such persons Who could not serve on the front. Members of the SA, and members of the armed forced were later also assigned to guard duty at the concentration camps. joined the SS. I shall have to ask you specially because during the examination of the previous witness, death head units and death head divisions had obviously been mixed up. Will you please describe exactly the designation of these two types of units? What is meant by then? tion camps until the beginning of the war. At that point they were transferred to various parts. The Death Head Division has nothing to do whatsoever with the Death Head Units. The Death Head Division is a division of the SS, which was being formed and moved to the front as a complete division. transferred in the SS. Would that mean that after they were transferred to the SS they had something to do with the concentration camps, in guarding them? soldiers. of the So had been unified by a general command, and by that the prosecution means that it becomes clear from a reference to a picture presented by the prosecution that the 12 chief departments of the Reichsfuehrer SS served as Chiefs of Justice. Were thos 12 chief departments the logical organizations of the SS ?
A No. These were not the organizations heads of the organization. Tribunal, I shall omit the 12 leading departments now. What about the Chief Department of the Order police or the RHA? Were they sources of the orders for the SS?
A No. The General or Police Read Was the head of the Order Police, and the Chief of the Security. They were department. of the Minister of interior.
Q That about the Staff Chief Department? Was the Chief Staff Department of the Reich Commissioner, for the strengthening of German nationalists, the so-called Chief Departments, Heissmeier, were they the cources of orders for the General SS and Waffen SS?
A No. Both of the Chief Departments were authorities of the Reich. They were not opposite to the Waffen SS or the General SS. Both Chief Departments jad no authority. orders to the General SS and Waffen SS? have to exclude 2. The so-called." Chief department Heissmeier, and the chief "Personal Staff", who had nothing to do with the SS at all. The Chief Department had no authority for orders but it was the Adjutant's office of Himmler. The various sections came under Himmler's orders directly and which he personally ordered and carried them out.
General SS and the Waffen SS. For example, the Department "Levensborn" (German form of Life) was a part of that. Then, the Reichs Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Grawitz, was also working in that chief department. Then in one capacity were the personal officials of Himmler, who without working with the organization, carried, out biological experiences. I have one further question in connection with that complex of organizations These sir departments, were they unified in the supreme command of the SS? command. They were six apartment's working on the same level and staffed by exports, who could give orders to the troops without their having any unification in the hands of one single person. unified supreme command., which was the eventual source of orders and which would guarantee a unified direction of the various sectors in the various posts?
A No, Himmler did not have such a staff. He himself only very rarely interfered with the general Direction of the SS and never in the principle of unifying its command.
Q Did not Himmler's speeches contradict your testismany here? For instance, the speech at Posem, where he emphasized thee uniformity of the organizations?
A. No, the speeches do not contradict the testimony that I have just given In his speeches he was no doubt speaking of unity and that certainly Was his Desire, but it does not in any way correspond with the reality. Himmler's speeches are therefore to be regarded as a picture of plans for the future instead of stating a way to work with each other as Himmler wanted these and always developed" singularly.
You can clearly recognize organizations to function.
These organizations Were different from Himmler's apeechthat he was aware of this and it was for that particular reason he took the opportunity of stating his thoughts about the uniformity of the high leaders and organization. This point or view had nothing to do with the view of the organizations at all. system of the SS?
A Yes. This became clear afterwards in regard to the legality. Of course, this was not a part of the General-SS and in that case it applied to the Waffen SS and it was furthermore applicable to the police. It was for that reason that Himmler during the entire war considered the police as being one close group. At the beginning of the war there were seprate units which could be considered as troops on-active service and as the war went on and particularly as the air-war sent on, the entire German police was considered as being unified and therefore came under the Jurisdiction of the Court. The same not only applies to the security police, but again the decree from Himmler in 1943 according to which the entire police, during the war, was considered separate. Therefore it came under the jurisdiction of the SS legal system. These department's remained entirely independant and were in no way connected with the Waffen SS. That became and rent from the fact that Himmler at the same time handed over the distribution of the legal matters, as far as it referred to the research and from the hands of the legal system, to the Special Work Investigating organization, which was part of the RSHA.
of the RSHA could be carried out and that sentences were passed, but the insight into the matters of the RSHA was denied. Even a legal system as a control measure was quite impossible. camps were under the jurisdiction of the legal system, because at the beginning of the war they had become members of the Waffen SS, nominally speaking, for either financial reasons or supply reasons and also for the reason of uniformed supervision, they were drawn into the Waffen SS. legal system leadership at all from the point of view of legal rights. Then under whom did the members of the General SS come ? October of 1939, which was at a time when the General SS was about to disappear. Before that the General SS came under the General legal system. Perpetrations committed by the General SS were therefore prosecuted by ordinary German courts and they were sentenced by them. This same condition remained in force during the war, even when there was a legal system of the SS, at least insofar as the members of the German SS remained in their own country.
Q Then, in order to state it more clearly, Mr. Witness, the General SS during peace time and daring war time came under the Civil Ordinary German legal system. Is that right ? the SS was being designed for illegal purposes and from the beginning it has carried out illegal purposes and that no difference was made during the various periods with which we are concerned, Would the development of the legal system of the SS strengthen that allegation referred to by the prosecution ? out criminal activities, then logically the legal system of such an organization must by virtue of the offices of the organization, its contents and its activities, must indicate that it is covering up such criminal aims and criminal activities precisely.
The officers of the SS from the moment of its formation were principals in the fight against crime and had a perfectly logical legal system. gal system in the SS, how was it guaranteed ? General SS came under the ordinary German civil courts ? cipline, that is to say, a certain type of legal system which was applicable to the members of the General SS. Is that correct ?
A That is what I want to say. It was an internal disciplinary system just as is imposed by every civil union. That system was based on the fact that people who had previously been penalized could not enter the official corps and if they were prosecuted, they would have to leave the corps. This principle was the best way of introducing legality and the perpetration of crime was prevented automatically. ary system and its application in turn was therefore to run concurrently with the penal system and the penal prosecution with the Ordinary German legal system, so that the SS would remain free of any dubious elements between the Reichs Minister of Justice and the Reichs Leader SS.
An agreement was reached, according to which there was the Ordinary German Justice on one side to inform the SS if a perpetrator of the SS was discovered and on the other hand, the SS had to inform the Reichs Minister of Justice.
justice was appointed. This had the outcome that, in fact, first of all criminal elements 'were eliminated from the SS and secondly, perpetrations against laws were, in fact, by the legal system of Germany.
Q Mr. Witness as far as your construction of the sentences you use and relating to your sentences, please be a little more brief. That Will be easier for the interpreter. in the Waffen SS? Was this done by any-chance -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you are going into this far too much in detail, Dr. Pelckmann.
DR. PELCKMANN: I believe, Your Lordship, that this has not yet been dealt with before the Commission and I thought that, in accordance with the decision of the Tribunal, I might introduce new subjects Which are important. I shall, nevertheless, attempt, Mr. President, to be brief. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q You had understood my last question, had you not? courts, were introduced for the Waffen SS? Was it its purpose to cover up crimes? troop units and thus, for those units, courts martials had to exist. This was carried out by means of a law, not by some order from Himmler and by means of that law the same legal set-up was introduced which applied to the armed forces. Also by means of that law, the same organization of courts was introduced for the SS which had already been used by the armed forces. It could not be said, therefore, that the introduction of these courts was carried out in order to cover up criminal actions. In fact, it was the exact opposite. ed for crimes, atrocities and criminal actions. Your testimony contradicts that, your testimony regarding the fight against crimes. Is that not the impression? concerned was consistent. Institutions existed and were created which would guarantee that their education was carried out in its entirety.
Right, law and including international law was taught not only in the Junker schools of the SS but legal lectures were given to the entire units and the chief legal department of the SS, as the central department, issued mat erial to take care of it so the these principles of cleanliness and decency became common property of all the members of the SS. Legal education in the SS, as it was being handled, means precisely the opposite of what has been stated by the Prosecution. fight against crime before and during the war just proves how necessary that was because there was nothing but criminals in the SS. Would they be right if they said that?
A Oh no, they wouldn't be right. Special principles were applied to the SS. It was the duty of the SS to adopt a particularly ethical attitude. Thus, a man in the SS would become more guilty if he would infringe on the legal situation and he would, therefore, be more severely penalzed. That is the reason which explains the more severe punishment inflicted upon SS members in comparison to members of the armed forces or German civilians.
Q Himmler Was the chief judge, was he not? What position did he occupy? For instance, could he order a court to issue a certain penalty or pass judgement? As the chief judge he used the right given to him by Hitler by decree to squash proceedings in only very few cases. The judge was free to apply the law. The law guaranteed his independance. The findings and sentences of the SS courts came about by means of vote and the principle of majority was applied and interference of the highest judge, that is Himmler, could therefore not be possible, However, the supreme judge had the right to confirm or cancel judgement or sentences, that is to say, he could have a case re-tried if he did not agree with the sentence. But here again the courts of the SS always adhered to the existing laws and asserted their will. times because he considered the penalty too high or too low and the same findings and sentences were repeated by these courts, if it were inaccordance with law and eventually, in that waym they asserted themselves.
the legal system contradicts the assertion of the Prosecution, namely, that the SS had been designed for purposes for which neither the party nor the state wished to assume responsibility. the historical development of the SS and the fact is that the apparently unbridg eable gap between the statement of the Prosecution and my testimony is due to the fact that the Prosecution simply consider the SS as a single unit from the point of view of its organization, which it has never been. point of view of the Prosecution. Wherever the state executive acted it was the SS which acted, according to the point of view of the Prosecution. These connect ions, from the organizational point of view, did not exist and that is why the allegations of the Prosecution, as far as that is concerned, are not correct. documents which dealt with crimes committed particularly by members of the Waffen SS. It is necessary for me to ask you, therefore, is it right that the Waffen SS in occupied territories and at the front committed crimes against the civilian population and was it crimes committed systematically and in violation of international agreement, in violation of local penal law and the general principles of penal law of all civilized nations?
A No. There can be no question of that. It is clear that even on the part of the Waffen SS in individual cases there were violations of international law, just as that happened on the other side, as well. But all these are individual occurrences and there is no system behind it. All these individual perpetrations were prosecuted under the legal system of the SS and the police in the most severemanner. In the chief department of the SS courts there existed an institution, central supervision, as it was called, which guaranteed the correctness of the entire handling of the matter and I can testify from that point of view in this Courtroom, that in such individual cases the courts in every theatre of war and during the entire duration of the war were passing sentences because of murder, looting, assault and rape, ill-treatment and even for killing prisoners of war, in connectionwith which the race or nationality of the person concerned had no influence. All these were individual deeds an it was not done systematically.
This is proved by the statistics of the chief department of the SS; the legal system wasmost strictly applied and criminality varied from 8 per cent at the beginning to 3 per cent at the end of the war and in that way it remains below the normal level. submitted here, there appears to have been a prohibition of the prosecution of such crimes. Is that not a contradiction of your testimony regarding the prosecution of such cases in sentences passed? reference to cancelling the necessity of prosecuting such cases. Nevertheless, the prosecution of such cases was left to the discretion of the courts. During my entire period of long practice I know of no cases -
THE RESIDENT: What is the reference to the order of Hitler?
DR. PELCKMANN: I am afraid, at this moment, much as I regret it, I cannot give your Lordship the number. That is the order Which came out before the beginning of the Russian campaign and in which it is stated that only for the maintenance of discipline perpetrations of the troops should be prosecuted. If you will permit me to do so, I shall give you the number tomorrow.
Now, Mr. President, I have only one more question.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President. I can give you that. the bands and it is USSR 16.
THE PRESIDENT: You say you have only one more question?
DR. PELCKMANN: I have only one more question and then I will have terminate? this particular chapter and I will start a new one, if I may do so, in the morning.
Q It has been alleged by the Prosecution, Mr. Witness, that so-called court: martial of the SS and the Police existed under the cover of a legal system and that they were murdering civilian population in occupied territories. What is the conception of the Court Martial of the SS and Police?
A Such Courts Martial of the SS and Police never existed at any time. There were, as I know from my own experience, courts martial in Poland, courts martial which came from the security police. have now just recently learned that such courts martial existed also in the remaining occupied territories. These were courts martial operated by the Security Police, that is to say, it was an affair entirely of the Police, which had nothing whatever to do with the legal system of the SS and the Police. THE PRESIDENT: Well now, will you tell us what are the subjects upon which you are going to question this witness tomorrow?
DR. PELCKMANN: The system of concentration camps and the SS legal system.
THIS PRESIDENT: You have been dealing with the SS legal system today. That is the subject you have just concluded. You have told us that the judges of the SS were independant. That is the part of the legal system, isn't it?
DR. PELCKMANN: No, I mean to put special questions dealing with the legal system in concentration camps. They are practical questions, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: What questions are you going to deal with?
DR. PELCKMANN: Tomorrow I would you to deal with the concentration camp system and the SS and Police legal system and the connection between the two.
THE PRESIDENT: I have got down that you are going to deal with the concentration camps and the legal system in concentration camps. What else?
DR. PELCKMANN: Notheing else, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal wishes me to tell you that they think you have been much too long and they will expect you to be much shorter tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 August 1946 at 1000 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Pelckmann. BY DR. PELCKMANN (Counsel for SS):
Q Mr. Witness, before passing on to the new subject which I will deal with in my questions, I have one more question which refers to the examination carried on yesterday. on the occasion of the submitting of a document or granting from a cavalry brigade of the SS, I was afraid, as I gather from certain statements, that this brigade night be mixed up with the cavalry Storm troops of the General SS. I draw the attention of the High Tribunal, in this connection, to the testimony given by witness von BoikowskiBidan before the Commission and I merely beg to be allowed to ask this witness in which way the cavalry troops of the General SS differ from the formation which I have just mentioned. General SS just as, for instance, the motor storm troops of the General SS were. They had nothing whatever to do with the later cavalry units of the Waffen SS which were not built up on the strength of these cavalry storm troops. describing the atrocities in concentration camps. It has been alleged by the Prosecution that the conditions were the outcome of a consequent policy of the SS. Can you, as a high ranking judge, define your attitude with reference to that allegation? Did the legal system of the SS, for instance, gain knowledge of these events, and if so, did it remain silent? atrocities as to conditions shown in these pictures, there can be no question whatsoever. In concentration camps frightful cruelties were committed but the film showed the outcome of the total collapse of the German Reich and its influence upon concentration camps. That means that it does not represent their normal condition.
Normal conditions were absolutely different. I can certainly pass judgment on that point because the legal system of the SS and the police was using all means at its disposals.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the witness speaking from personal observation of the concentration camps?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, Mr. President, he is just about to explain that.
THE WITNESS: I can pass judgment on that subject because the legal system of the SS and the police was using every means at its disposal, sometimes even overstepping its own authority to stop these cruelties by legal means. We had investigating commissions in these concentration camps who reported to me repeatedly about the conditions in the camps. take steps against such conditions then that was only so because here We were not concerned with a constant policy of the SS but with criminal perpetrations of individual persons and small groups and also individual highly placed superiors but these were not committed by the SS as an organization. In order to fight against these crimes and in order to clean the SS of such criminal elements the legal system became active.
DR. PELCKMANN: I am going to quote from a document already submitted by the Prosecution. It is the Prosecution document E-168. Sub-department for Concentration Camps, reference (b), your Honor, We are concerned here with instructions given to the first medical officers in concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document?
DR. PELCKMANN: It is a document already submitted by the Prosecution E 168 and it- is in the official document book
THE PRESIDENT: I cannot hear what the reference is. Is it "D", dawn or (The Interpreter:
"E", easy -- 168).
THE PRESIDENT: What is the exhibit number?
DR. PELCKMANN: Unfortunately I am not in a position to tell you at the present time. I beg to apologize.
In that document, it says amongst other things:
"With such a high death figure the number of detainees can never be brought to the level demanded by the Reichsfuehrer SS if death figures are as high as this. The first medical camp officer must use every means at their disposal in order to reduce the death rate in the various camps to a considerable extent. It is not the best medical officer in a concentration camp who believes that by undue hardship be must stand out. The best medical officer is the man who, by means of supervision and exchange at the various places of work, achieves the figures which are as high as possible.
"Medical officers in the camps should supervise the feeding of the prisoners more often than before and with the approval of the administration they should submit suggestions for improvements to the camp commandant. Naturally they must not merely be on paper but camp medical officers should check them regularly. Apart from that, the medical officers ought to see to it that the working conditions at the various places of work should be improved as much as possible. It is necessary for that reason that medical officers should inspect the places of work thoroughly and convince themselves as to the working conditions.
"The Reichsfuehrer SS has ordered that the death rate must be reduced at all costs."
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you understand that we don't wish to have -Can't you hear ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has indicated to the Prosecution they don't want to hear these documents read which have already been put in evidence, and there you are reading every word of this document.
DR. PELCKMANN: Very well, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have a question to put upon it, you may
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, I Understand, Mr. President. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Did you, Mr. Witness, know anything about the question whether such orders were actually obeyed in concentration camps ?
A. The investigating commission of the Chief Department of the Legal System of the SS had repeatedly confirmed to me during personal reports that such orders were in fact put into practice inside the camps. They reported to me that the accommodations, the hygiene, the medical supervision and the feeding and also the treatment of the detainees was good in most parts. The same applied to the physical appearance of the prisoners. They also confirmed that the strict prohibition of ill treatment of detainees was repeatedly make known in the camp, and was, in fact, observed. quite a different one seen from a outside, The cleanliness and the development of the working program without friction becomes apparent. If crimes were committed in concentration camps, they then occurred in such a manner that they remained hidden from the outside world, even from the inmates of the camp in fact, and as far as they were not participating in them, they could not have observed them.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you saying that you personally received this letter or that you had these facts before you ?
WITNESS: From these investigating Commissions I received reports which were put before me personally, and from these reports I was able to gather the facts which I have just stated.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, you knew in December 1942 that 70,000 arrivals in concentration camps, out of 136,000, had died did you ?
WITNESS: No, that wasn't known to me at the time. I shall have to supplement my testimony by stating an answer which was to occur in connection with a later question, namely that the Chief SS Court only dealt with these investigating commissions during the second half of 1943 in order to discover crimes committed in concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you said in answer to my question, "These facts were known to me."
Go on, Dr. Pelckmann.
DR. PELCKMANN: In this connection, I draw the attention of the Tribunal to supplement the Tribunal's knowledge to my affidavit SS No. 65 to 67 which in its entirety, and in accordance with my application, has been translated. It was submitted by a judge who led these investigations, and it reports numerous further details. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. To what extent did the legal system of the SS operate the legal system in concentration camps ?
A. Jurisdiction of the legal system of the SS did not include detainees in concentration camps. Responsibility for those was entirely under the ordinary German legal system, To a certain extent the proceedings did come under the SS legal system, even concerning political section who were in concentration camps. This is subject to the fact that the investigating department of the RSHA would have preference in this connection. Guards and members of the Kommandant staff in concentration camps came under the jurisdiction of the legal system to its full extent and to the extent of courts martial.
Q. You have already mentioned, Mr. Witness, that the prosecution of crimes in concentration camps began in 1943 as far as the legal system of yours was concerned. when in 1943 ?
A. It was during the second half of 1943. It was then that the legal system on the occasion of a case of corruption against the former camp commandant Koch, found traces of crimes which had been committed in other camps. It was from that moment that the legal system became active.
Q. When how is it that the legal system became operative so very late ?
A. There were so-called legal officers attached to concentration camps. They were carrying out supervisory activities. These legal officers, who were the instruments of the judges in question, had the task in connection with any crimes that might occur to produce so-called reports of evidence. These reports were then submitted to the courts in order to enable them to prosecute the crimes.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think he gave an answer to your question at all. Your question was: How was it that it was so late as the second half of 1943 that these investigating commissions began to become active ? He didn't answer that question at all.
DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, the witness hasn't quite finished. I was merely putting an intermediary question. In his further reply it will become quite clear. I merely have an intermediate question. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Did these legal officers come under your jurisdiction in the Chief Department of the SS legal system, or the SS legal system generally, or under whose jurisdiction did they come ?
A. The legal officer did not come under the organization of the legal system but he was an official of the Supreme Judge, in whose hands there were the investigations.
Q. Well then, who was that in concentration camps ?
A. In the case of concentration camps, it was in the hands of Oswald Pohl who was mentioned yesterday.
Q. Now, will you please continue to answer the question. How did it happen that the legal system learned of the atrocities so late ?
A. The reason was that earlier the legal system hadn't had any suspicions, and that in turn was due to the fact that these legal officers, during the years until 1943, were continuously supporting such reports on evidence to the courts.