In 1931 I passed my first State examination and in 1934 I passed the SS examination Which entitled me to occupy the position of a judge. In 1933 I became Doctor of Law at Munich. carried out in special schools? special schools. The SS judges came from positions in the general legal world and before the war they Were high legal personalities, judge advocate generals, lawyers, or during the war they came from the courts of the armed forces and were transferred to the courts of the SS. of the construction and work of the units and groups, the chief of which was Himmler, and which one night describe generally as the SS?
A Yes. For nearly ten years I worked in the legal system of the SS. From that sector I occupied myself with the development of the construction and with the activity of the entire SS, the chief of which was Himmler. I occupied myself with it to a considerable extent. From that point of view I gained a very considerable knowledge and from that point of view I can give my testimony here. entire life of the State. In this connection, the numerous positions and powerful positions are referred to which the so-called Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler had held. Is it the case that whore the Reichsfuehrer SS is acting that the SS, generally speaking, is meant?
A No, Heinrich Himmler united himself in a number of powerful positions in the Party and the State, and finally, the Armed Forces.
He was Reichsfuehrer SS with the chief of the German Police; also, he was Reich Minister of the Interior. German Nationalism; he was chief of the reserves of the Armed Forces; he was chief of the prisoner-of-war system, and finally, he was the Supreme Commander of the two Army Groups. All of these powers and positions had nothing to do with his position of the Reichsfuerer of the SS. His nominations to the positions of power took place because of orders from above and because of his suitability, and for reasons which can be traced back to his personality and not because he was Reichsfuehrer SS. Any connection between the SS and these positions of power held by Himmler does not exist. ing emphasized in the indictment, and it was alleged that here the SS had been active. These were his position as the Reichsfuehrer of the SS, Chief of the German Police, and Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Nationalism, and also Chief of the Prisoner-of-War System. with the activities of the organization of the SS? the SS where Himmler, in his capacity as the Reichsfuehrer SS was acting in connection with the SS. As the Chief of the German Police, he had been given a task which was entirely a part of the State. His commission for the Strengthening of German Nationalism is entirely an affair of the Reich. His position as the chief of the Prisoner-of-War System on the other hand, is entirely an affair of the Armed Force.
laws, it would have to be mentioned in the transfer of all tasks which were assigned to Himmler, the phrase Reichsfuehrer SS.
How did that happen ?
A That is correct. Reichsfuehrer SS was the first position hold by Himmler at the beginning of his career. It is typical usage of language in the National Socialist Reich not to use the name of persons, but to refer to them by title of their position. That usage can be found in numerous laws by the persons as such which, by that, the organization is not meant. As in many economical political laws, in order to give an example, Hermann is called a Reich Marshal, something which happened very often. That was not to say also that the German airforce was acting in an economic political matter.
Q You have just mentioned organizations. Organizations--plural-- of the SS. As you know, your statement, your testimony before the Commission is already in the hands of the Tribunal, in which you said one could recognize 5 different units which had been mentioned by the Prosecution and had been collected as one long unit. The General SS, Waffen SS, SD, Police, and System of concentration camps. what do you want to state in your statement that that these were independent organizations ? will you start with the Allgemeine SS--the General SS ? ical Party. They remained a part of the political Party until 1938. It disappeared at the beginning of the war. At that time, 70% of the members of the General SS changed over to temporary service, some in the armed forces, a smaller percentage of which was serving in the armed forces. But, even the remaining 30% were entirely caught up by the armed forces that the general SS, in wartime, had practically disappeared. The General SS had, at no time, received tasks from the state, nor did it carry out any tasks on behalf of the state. Its members were the remaining civilians who only were uniforms when they were on duty--that took place twice weekly, quite often on Sundays--and it was in order to keep order during party Meetings.
It was sports and it was training. General SS was the backbone of the entire SS, which consisted of General SS, Waffen SS, and concentration camp duties. Is that correct ? to the historical development of the General SS. The General SS was not a reserve from which the other name organizations were drawing their forces and supplanting them. The General SS partly had no connection to the other organizations named. eral SS had not only had a punitive organization, but that it had infiltrated the organization of the apparatus of the States, is that correct ?
A No, that again is not correct. Although it is correct that high persons in the General SS were occupying positions in the State, such as the position of the President of the Police, and it is also correct that such personalities occupied positions in industrial firms. It is, nevertheless, concerned with appointments which are connected with the persons of the nominated individuals but not the organization as such. Might I remind you that particularly, the position of Police President during the first years after 1933 was mostly not at all occupied by members of the SS, but was staffed by members of the SA. In fact, the General SS was infiltrated by such strange persons and organizations. Himmler appointed people to positions in the State and Economy and made them honorary members of the SS without the people being connected with the SS as such. In 1936, for instance, the so-called Kiefhaueser Union of soldiers was taken over into the SS by Himmler, but it had never had anything to do with the SS at any time and it had volunteered under the organization of the SS. You will find the same picture in 1938. There, Himmler is awarding honorary ranks first, to the Order Police, and the Security Police, whom he appointed, to a certain rank and give them uniforms of police organizations, but they were entirely separate from the General SS and had tasks completely foreign to the General SS.
in the General SS called honorary leaders ? I have just been referring. never did duty in the SS ? of their position, were given ranks and the right to wear a uniform. But they themselves had never done a single day's duty in the General SS and they would have had no contact with the members of the actual SS. This, generally speaking, is the concept of the honorary leaders in the SS. ers who had no official contact or duty with the SS as being Hess, Ribbentrop, Von Neurath, Sauckel ? honorary leaders in the SS as I have described them ?
Q Did they have the power to issue orders ? ly received the right to wear the uniform. Any power to issue orders was not given to them. SS. What is the situation there ? ual organization and it remained as such until the end of the war. It began in the so-called Special Disposal Group. They were connected to the General SS because from the General SS recruits were transferred to the Special Disposal Group, and the Special Disposal Groups were joined by German citizens who got into it through other organizations of the Party and other citizens who were not connected with the Party.
****** the contact which was loosened initially.
The Waffen SS became an independ ent organization, which can be expressed by the fact that members of the General SS and members of the Party who are serving in the Waffen SS, find that their memberships in the General SS and the membership in the Party becomes dormant for that period, but it is typical that even the highest leader in the General SS does not by any means join the Waffen SS with the same rank he has in the General SS but that in the Waffen SS he is treated exactly as any other citizen; in other words, he is beginning as a recruit. The difference, as proof for my allegation that we are concerned with an independent organization, also lies in the fact that in thecase of the criminal proceedings of the General SS, the NSDAP would appear whereas in the civil proceedings of the Waffen SS organization, the German Reich would act. on one side and the SD on the other?
A In this case, no connection whatever existed; during the war it had developed into an independent intelligence service even in 1934, it became an independent organization which had nothing whatsoever to do with the] General SS and the Waffen SS. It merely had the joint contact with Himmler.
Q Was the relationship between the Waffen and the General SS complete? case. The Waffen SS had a typically military character and its work was just military; that is to say, during the entire war it was at the front. Any connection to these can therefore not possibly be established but the General SS also had no direct organization with the police. The police was an organization of the State and it had its orders from the state; the appointment of high offices, high-ranking officers in the General SS and in the Higher SS and police leader, again, indicates no organic connection whatever between the two organizations. The Higher SS and Police Leader in that particular position had no power to issue orders to the General SS because he was at the same time the head of another sector of the SS but, on the other hand, he had not got the right to issue orders to the police either. Members of the police have in fact issued by external difference -- not worn an SS uniform at any time.
There is a connection between the General SS and the Waffen SS on one side and the Security Police on the other. As I have already stated, in 1938 the Security Police quite suddenly received the right to wear the SS uniforms and their ranks were coordinated with the SS. That, however, does not indicate that there was any connection with the organization of the General SS. The Security Police had no connection with the State and the General SS on the other hand never had any powers ; he cannot carry cut arrests nor can he carry out confiscations nor can he carry out any other executive function. It is obvious that particularly at the beginning of the war and during the war the Security Police, as far as their external appearances were concerned, became more and more secret and that, too, the wearing of the uniform and we are concerned with the period--
THE PRESIDENT: Is it possible that this evidence could have been given at greater length before the Commission ? Did you hear what I said ?
DR. PELCKMANN Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: You can shorten it.
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, I shall shorten it. The witness has already come to the end of that particular part of his testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: You have been asked over and over again to shorten the evidence and you seem to me to be making no effort to do it.
DR. PELCKMANN: I have considered it myself, only to clear up the question of the Higher SS and police Leader in particular in great detail because that question is so utterly intricate for anyone who doesn't know Germany and for us Germans. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. What did the Higher SS and Police Leader have to do with the General SS in Occupied Territories ?
A. Nothing at all, nothing whatsoever, because in Occupied Territories there wasn't any General SS at all. The General SS was an institution for Germans citizens and for that reason, it didn't exist in Occupied Territories. The Higher SS and Police Leader in Occupied Territories was carrying out entirely only police functions, without having any connection or ties with General SS and that for the reasons which I have described, couldn't have ha it.
Q. Wasn't there any General SS in the Occupied Territories ?
A. As I have just told you, the General SS was a unit, an organization of a political party, in which unit German citizens were exempt -- in Occupied Territories, and for that reason the General SS could not exist.
Q. Is it correct, therefore, for me to say that perpetrations, in fact, crimes of the Higher SS and Police Leader in the Occupied Territories , coul not concern the General SS and incriminate them at all ?
A. That is certainly and absolutely correct
Q. I should like to make the discussion of a document. During the recess. I have given you, Mr. Witness, a document and perhaps you would be good enough to state the number of the document to the High Tribunal. It is the document which was put to the witness von Eberstein yesterday.
A. It is document 4-24 -PS. It is correspondence between the Higher SS and Police Leader in the Operational Zone, Adriatic post, Globocnik with Heinrich Himmler and with Oswald Pohl.
Q. Has it been possible for you to ascertain from the document, in which capacity the author of these letters was acting; was he acting in his capacity as HigherSS and Police Leader in Trieste or was he acting as Higher SS and Police Leader in Lublin, as far as you can remember ?
A. The document shows quite clearly that Globocnik, in this case, was act. as SS and Police Leader in Lublin and not as Higher SS and Police Leader Adriatic Post. This is contained actually in the document itself. I myself, know from my own activity that at the end of 1943 and at the beginning of 1944, Globocnik was relieved as SS Leader in Lublin and that he was given the post of Higher SS and Police Leader in the early personnel. So far the state of the document appears incorrect. The date of the document is to 5th of January 1943 but that may be an error. It would have to be in 1944 as the letter head shows.
Q. Would Globocnik's activities, described in this document, implicate the General SS; that is to say, did Globocnik as the leader of the General SS carry out the activities which he is describing ?A. It is obvious, as it becomes clear from the document, here, that Globocnik was acting in his position as SS and Police Leader and that we are here concerned with the secret special task which was given him in the socalled action "Reinhart". Here he is acting entirely in the police executive sector.
Any connection between that work with the organization of the General SS or even any one of its members, cannot in any way exist.
Q. Are you drawing the conclusion, namely, that we are here concerned withthe special direct order and task from Himmler on the strength of the face that the report is addressed to Himmler directly and not as it ought to have been -- is addressed via the Higher SS and Police Leader at Krakow, Krueger ?
A. That is quite true but it also becomes apparent from other circumstance contained in the correspondence. The special task issued in the correspondence; furthermore, the correspondence is headed "Secret Reich Matter" and furthermore, it is mentioned on the document that this secret Reich matter only existed in four, copies and the copy sent to Himmler, to Globocnik is No. 1, the original.
Q You are still reading from document 4024?
6 Aug A LJG 20-1 It appears to me that it shows perfectly clearly who was occupied with these Matters, and by whose orders and whose authority Globocnik was acting. "Reinhardt" was subdivided into four territories. Firstly, resettlement, secondly, use of labor, thirdly, use of materials, fourthly, the hidden values and real estate. It also shows that Globocnik was only communicating with Oswald Pohl personally, except with Himmler, in this case. Pohl was Chief of the Administration Department, when Globocnik was Chief of the Adjutant Department.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the point of all this evidence? We have the documents before us.
DR. PELCKMANN: Yesterday this document was shown to the Higher SS and Police Leader in the Reich, von Eberstein, in order to prove with it, through Globocnik's action, who had also the title of Higher So and Police Leader, and to show that abroad, Higher SS and Police Leaders were committing crimes, and also to prove that the General SS was also implicated in these crimes. Because of the view of the prosecution, I am trying to show that Higher SS and Police Leaders were simultaneously acting on behalf of the General SS. This witness. Reinecke as a high Judge, can judge the entire organization of the Higher SS, and he is in a position to state whether this impression of the prosecution is correct.
THE PRESEDENT: Surely he can say so without going all this time on this document. If he wanted to say whether Globocnik was acting on behalf of the SS, or was not, why does he not say so and get done with it? experience, with the organization of the SS , as we have been able to judge it , and you say that Globocnik was acting on be-6 Aug A LJG 20-2 half of the WAffen-SS and by its order, or whether he was acting on behalf of the General SS?
Globocnik was neither acting on behalf of the General SS and Waffen SS, or for them. The document shows clearly that it was his special personal part or task given to Globocnik by Himmler, a task which has nothing to do with the two organizations mentioned. groups which had also been regarded as one unit by the prosecution, did they have any connection with concentration camps? We had not yet come to the system of the concentration camps. How did the concentration camp system fit into the SS and was there an organic tie between the system and the concentration camps and the SS?
AAn organic tie did not exist. The management of the concentration camp system was therefore a task for the Reich. With such personnel, such members of the General SS and small portions of the SS, and members of the small unions, and finally members of the armed forces, were transferred to guard duties in concentration camps. The system of concentration camps, and according to its purpose, had a character similar to that of the police. The carrying out of the task for the Reich was given to Himmler in 1932 or 1934. The special organization formed was called at that time, the "Totenkopf", the Death Head Units. That organization too did not originate in the General SS. The first guard for the concentration camps were to a very small degree former members of the General SS. They were also members of the SA and other personnel. They were members of the party, and people who had belonged to no party, which was of course in accordance with the conditions of the tire. There were also unemployed and required work and food, and who had to be put to work. From these initial stages, the Death Head Units continued to develop and they were given 6 Aug A LJG 20-3 police training.
In 1939, they joined the Waffen SS organization, which Was at that time being formed.
The task of guarding concentration camps now became the task of such persons Who could not serve on the front. Members of the SA, and members of the armed forced were later also assigned to guard duty at the concentration camps. joined the SS. I shall have to ask you specially because during the examination of the previous witness, death head units and death head divisions had obviously been mixed up. Will you please describe exactly the designation of these two types of units? What is meant by then? tion camps until the beginning of the war. At that point they were transferred to various parts. The Death Head Division has nothing to do whatsoever with the Death Head Units. The Death Head Division is a division of the SS, which was being formed and moved to the front as a complete division. transferred in the SS. Would that mean that after they were transferred to the SS they had something to do with the concentration camps, in guarding them? soldiers. of the So had been unified by a general command, and by that the prosecution means that it becomes clear from a reference to a picture presented by the prosecution that the 12 chief departments of the Reichsfuehrer SS served as Chiefs of Justice. Were thos 12 chief departments the logical organizations of the SS ?
A No. These were not the organizations heads of the organization. Tribunal, I shall omit the 12 leading departments now. What about the Chief Department of the Order police or the RHA? Were they sources of the orders for the SS?
A No. The General or Police Read Was the head of the Order Police, and the Chief of the Security. They were department. of the Minister of interior.
Q That about the Staff Chief Department? Was the Chief Staff Department of the Reich Commissioner, for the strengthening of German nationalists, the so-called Chief Departments, Heissmeier, were they the cources of orders for the General SS and Waffen SS?
A No. Both of the Chief Departments were authorities of the Reich. They were not opposite to the Waffen SS or the General SS. Both Chief Departments jad no authority. orders to the General SS and Waffen SS? have to exclude 2. The so-called." Chief department Heissmeier, and the chief "Personal Staff", who had nothing to do with the SS at all. The Chief Department had no authority for orders but it was the Adjutant's office of Himmler. The various sections came under Himmler's orders directly and which he personally ordered and carried them out.
General SS and the Waffen SS. For example, the Department "Levensborn" (German form of Life) was a part of that. Then, the Reichs Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Grawitz, was also working in that chief department. Then in one capacity were the personal officials of Himmler, who without working with the organization, carried, out biological experiences. I have one further question in connection with that complex of organizations These sir departments, were they unified in the supreme command of the SS? command. They were six apartment's working on the same level and staffed by exports, who could give orders to the troops without their having any unification in the hands of one single person. unified supreme command., which was the eventual source of orders and which would guarantee a unified direction of the various sectors in the various posts?
A No, Himmler did not have such a staff. He himself only very rarely interfered with the general Direction of the SS and never in the principle of unifying its command.
Q Did not Himmler's speeches contradict your testismany here? For instance, the speech at Posem, where he emphasized thee uniformity of the organizations?
A. No, the speeches do not contradict the testimony that I have just given In his speeches he was no doubt speaking of unity and that certainly Was his Desire, but it does not in any way correspond with the reality. Himmler's speeches are therefore to be regarded as a picture of plans for the future instead of stating a way to work with each other as Himmler wanted these and always developed" singularly.
You can clearly recognize organizations to function.
These organizations Were different from Himmler's apeechthat he was aware of this and it was for that particular reason he took the opportunity of stating his thoughts about the uniformity of the high leaders and organization. This point or view had nothing to do with the view of the organizations at all. system of the SS?
A Yes. This became clear afterwards in regard to the legality. Of course, this was not a part of the General-SS and in that case it applied to the Waffen SS and it was furthermore applicable to the police. It was for that reason that Himmler during the entire war considered the police as being one close group. At the beginning of the war there were seprate units which could be considered as troops on-active service and as the war went on and particularly as the air-war sent on, the entire German police was considered as being unified and therefore came under the Jurisdiction of the Court. The same not only applies to the security police, but again the decree from Himmler in 1943 according to which the entire police, during the war, was considered separate. Therefore it came under the jurisdiction of the SS legal system. These department's remained entirely independant and were in no way connected with the Waffen SS. That became and rent from the fact that Himmler at the same time handed over the distribution of the legal matters, as far as it referred to the research and from the hands of the legal system, to the Special Work Investigating organization, which was part of the RSHA.
of the RSHA could be carried out and that sentences were passed, but the insight into the matters of the RSHA was denied. Even a legal system as a control measure was quite impossible. camps were under the jurisdiction of the legal system, because at the beginning of the war they had become members of the Waffen SS, nominally speaking, for either financial reasons or supply reasons and also for the reason of uniformed supervision, they were drawn into the Waffen SS. legal system leadership at all from the point of view of legal rights. Then under whom did the members of the General SS come ? October of 1939, which was at a time when the General SS was about to disappear. Before that the General SS came under the General legal system. Perpetrations committed by the General SS were therefore prosecuted by ordinary German courts and they were sentenced by them. This same condition remained in force during the war, even when there was a legal system of the SS, at least insofar as the members of the German SS remained in their own country.
Q Then, in order to state it more clearly, Mr. Witness, the General SS during peace time and daring war time came under the Civil Ordinary German legal system. Is that right ? the SS was being designed for illegal purposes and from the beginning it has carried out illegal purposes and that no difference was made during the various periods with which we are concerned, Would the development of the legal system of the SS strengthen that allegation referred to by the prosecution ? out criminal activities, then logically the legal system of such an organization must by virtue of the offices of the organization, its contents and its activities, must indicate that it is covering up such criminal aims and criminal activities precisely.
The officers of the SS from the moment of its formation were principals in the fight against crime and had a perfectly logical legal system. gal system in the SS, how was it guaranteed ? General SS came under the ordinary German civil courts ? cipline, that is to say, a certain type of legal system which was applicable to the members of the General SS. Is that correct ?
A That is what I want to say. It was an internal disciplinary system just as is imposed by every civil union. That system was based on the fact that people who had previously been penalized could not enter the official corps and if they were prosecuted, they would have to leave the corps. This principle was the best way of introducing legality and the perpetration of crime was prevented automatically. ary system and its application in turn was therefore to run concurrently with the penal system and the penal prosecution with the Ordinary German legal system, so that the SS would remain free of any dubious elements between the Reichs Minister of Justice and the Reichs Leader SS.
An agreement was reached, according to which there was the Ordinary German Justice on one side to inform the SS if a perpetrator of the SS was discovered and on the other hand, the SS had to inform the Reichs Minister of Justice.
justice was appointed. This had the outcome that, in fact, first of all criminal elements 'were eliminated from the SS and secondly, perpetrations against laws were, in fact, by the legal system of Germany.
Q Mr. Witness as far as your construction of the sentences you use and relating to your sentences, please be a little more brief. That Will be easier for the interpreter. in the Waffen SS? Was this done by any-chance -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you are going into this far too much in detail, Dr. Pelckmann.
DR. PELCKMANN: I believe, Your Lordship, that this has not yet been dealt with before the Commission and I thought that, in accordance with the decision of the Tribunal, I might introduce new subjects Which are important. I shall, nevertheless, attempt, Mr. President, to be brief. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q You had understood my last question, had you not? courts, were introduced for the Waffen SS? Was it its purpose to cover up crimes? troop units and thus, for those units, courts martials had to exist. This was carried out by means of a law, not by some order from Himmler and by means of that law the same legal set-up was introduced which applied to the armed forces. Also by means of that law, the same organization of courts was introduced for the SS which had already been used by the armed forces. It could not be said, therefore, that the introduction of these courts was carried out in order to cover up criminal actions. In fact, it was the exact opposite. ed for crimes, atrocities and criminal actions. Your testimony contradicts that, your testimony regarding the fight against crimes. Is that not the impression? concerned was consistent. Institutions existed and were created which would guarantee that their education was carried out in its entirety.