These reports on evidence were worked out most exactly. In the case of any unnatural deaths of detainees, they contained photographs of the place of the crime, medical reports, statements from witnesses, both detainee and guards, and that work was carried out with such exactness that the suspicion couldn't arise that here, behind the backs of these legal officers, crimes could have been committed. against the criminal in evert case, and such sentences continued throughout all the years. actual conditions have been covered up in that manner ?
A. That is partly the case. I have just said that during the second half of 1943 we commenced with investigations in the camp of Buchenwald. In 1941 we had carried out such an investigation in Buchenwald, which, however had no result. that in 1941 the Kommandant, Koch, had used forted reports, forged witnessed and forged medical reports which had deceived the investigating judges. Then we carried out investigations in other camps, and on that occasion we discovered that in other camps these evidence reports had been in order.
Q. Now will you please describe to us the further advances made by the SS local system against crimes in concentration camps.
A. The traces and clues in the camp of Buchenwald were manifold and they led us to many camps. The subject was growing from month to month. It was discovered that the organizations who were carrying out investigations on beh of the legal system were utterly unsuitable for carrying out such a purely criminal investigation. It was because the legal system, characteristic for a military legal system, lacked the fundamental structure and that was an authority capable of carrying out criminal prosecutions. For that reason, judges, were sent to short courses, receiving criminal training and simultaneously, in collaboration with the RSHA, experts from the Reich Criminal Police Department were brought into the investigation of these crimes.
tinuously until the collapse. The Chief Department of the SS Legal System as such created a special court for special purposes which had almost exclusively the task of dealing judicially with these crimes committed in concentration camps. In the Chief Department of the SS Legal System, which was the central directing department of the legal system, a special chief department was created from which investigations which were going on in concentration camps were supervised centrally. And the task of the Chief Staff Legal Department was taken over by this department.
Q. Now, in order to summarize briefly, what was the outcome of the fight against crime in concentration camps by the SS legal system?
A. Altogether, approximately 800 cases were investigated. Four hundred of these eight hundred cases began by coming into the court and 200 out of those 400 were dealt with by a judicial sentence. Among the cases under investigation there Were proceedings against five commandants of concentration camps, proceedings against two commands to be completed; and a death sentence by shooting was passed.
Q. Did your commission encounter any difficulties on the occasion of these investigations?
A. The most considerable difficulties were put in the way of these commissions. These difficulties originated with Polh, who was using every means at his disposal and all his power to prevent any further advances from being made by these investigating commission, advances into the actual material of the nature of the crimes. In that master, the Legal System, after being unable to make any advances, and having to loosen every piece of evidence from the secrecy of the matter, was forced to work together with detainees. In almost every camp such commissions were active. There were confidence men who Were recruited from among the detainees, who were submitting material to the investigating judges. But then it was equally difficult to not these detainees to cooperate, because if their activities were afraid of being destroyed.
Q. But could you not then remove these obstacles by means of reports, say for instance, reports made to Himmler -- Pohl, as far as I know, was directly subordinate to Himmler -- so that Himmler could have given him corresponding orders?
A. Pohl did not act as cooperatively as that. As far as these matters were concerned, he acted as if he were supporting the investigating work of the legal system with all his force, exactly as if he were in favor of it; and it was in that manner that he reported the matter to Himmler. After we pointed out to Himmler the somewhat doubtful role played by Pohl, in reality Pohl was combatting with oil the means of his tremendously powerful position the investigations we were making, and he was working with the detainees hand in glove, as we have proved on the strength of the evidence. 1941, when our first investigation took place in the concentration camps at Buchenwald in that field, as I have described, he wrote a letter to the camp commandant Koch, which I have read myself. The contents of the letter were the following:
"I shall use all the power of my position to protect you if once again an unemployed lawyer is fixing his henchmen's hands towards your innocent white character." up in the death machinery of the concentration camps, but to a similar extent he became the most corrupt person in the entire Reich, something of which we found evidence towards the end of the war, evidence which we obtained through various proceedings against organizations which he headed in private business. As head of that criminal clique, he actually brought it about with the French that the system of confidence men among the detainees should be destroyed, a system which he knew might endanger his own person. name of Rote was lock up by his orders, and by means of an order from the RSHA, the Reich criminal police department, which he was trying to bring about, this detainee was to be hanged publicly before the detainees who were to be lined up, which would serve the purpose of setting an example and also to make it impossible to carry out the investigating work by the Legal System
Q. Will you go more slowly, witness? These are important statements, and the translating of them is not simple.
A. One of the investigating officers working for us noted these facts i due time, and he was able to prevent this action by Pohl at the last moment. That was how this criminal Pohl was acting. The most important support in his fight against the Legal System was the Fuehrer Order No. 1, about secrecy, however, which was visible in every department of the SS machinery. It was according to that order that the matters which were to be kept secret could only be communicated to such persons as were immediately concerned, and even those could be told only as much as they had to know. And even that applied only to the period during which the particular individual was acting.
Everything in concentration camps was secret; only with special passes and authority was it possible to enter them. The work carried out by detainees was secret, supposedly because they were producing "V" weapons. The existence of the detainees was secret, supposedly for reasons of counter-intelligence. The correspondence was headed, "Secret Reich Matter", and for that reason it could not be looked at all. For years Pohl could hide himself behind this, and it was thus that the progressive Legal System would only gain ground step by step if on the strength of individual perpetration he was cornered systematically.
Q. Then, Mr. Witness, do you believe that with the results that you have just described, the actual existing extenf of crimes would be gotten at by you, the extent of which we have heard during this trial?
A. As I know it today, no. And the reason for that is this. The Legal Systems of the SS or police were dealing with all these crimes as individual crimes, and the system of criminality as it is recognizable today could not be penetrated for a number of years.
When toward the end of 1944 the Legal System bad succeeded in tracing down the criminal Pohl and the criminal Gawitz, and Mueller, from the Gestapo, who was covering up the crimes, to corner these people on the strength of individual evidence, it was the first time these men referred to an "order from above". The investigation which now commenced, carried out by the legal system, went down during the collapse of Germany's resistance towards the end of the war.
complex of criminally mass exterminations? existence, but that they were concerned with mass extermination to a tremendous degree wasn't recognizable even then. just described, was responsible for the crimes which had become known? medical officer of the SS and Police, Grawitz, and next to him the Chief of the Gestapo, Mueller. Over and above that, Commandants of concentration camps, members of the Commandants' Staff, medical officers in concentration camps, and to a very considerable degree, criminal detainees in the concentration camps. of persons which you have just mentioned participated in the crimes without any difference?
A No, that isn't right. The investigations which we carried out proved clearly that certain camps were perfectly in order., that not every commandant was a criminal and that many members of the commandants' staffs knew nothing about crimes. The same applied to medical officers, but that most of all the guards in concentration camps had nothing Whatever to do with the crimes because they themselves were unable to gain insight into the events inside concentration camps. of Buchenwald, whose name was Koch. He has already been mentioned in this court room. Sometime earlier the prosecution had alleged, with reference to an examination of the detainee called Blaha, that Koch had been sentenced for embezzlement and the murder of three detainees. The way the prosecution described the situation was that at that time the SS court had simply bypassed the numerous remaining cases of killings. Is that correct, as far as you know?
A No, that is not correct. The source of the proceedings against Koch was a case of corruption, which was yet another reason why he was sentenced to death. The actual contents of the findings against Koch and the reason for his being sentenced to death was the system of murder invented and pursued by Koch in many cases.
This type of findings had to be chosen because so many crimes committed by Koch were on record committed very recently whereas traces had been eliminated so that it would have taken many months, in fact years, if these individual cases had been cleared up -- if they could have been cleared up at all. It was for that reason that we were acting, using the shortest possible evidence, in order to stop Koch's activities at once, and it was for that reason that those three cases were taken up, being typical. He was sentenced, however, because of the system of murder adopted in the concentration camp of Buchenwald.
DR. PELCKMANN: The testimony of this witness about these events is supported by the affidavits SS 65, 64, 66 -- I beg your pardon -- yes, 66, 67, 68 and 69. Please, would you be good enough to strike off 68; 68 does not apply: 64, 65, 67 and 69. These affidavits come from the investigating judge. The investigating judge, Dr. Morgen, ought to appear here as a witness. Unfortunately, it was only at the beginning of July that he arrived. just before the hearings before the Commission were terminated, and I haven't been able to prepare him in time for his examination. I have submitted his affidavit, however, and the High Tribunal will no doubt be able to judge Whether it might possibly be necessary to hear this man as a witness since we are here concerned with the most important matters. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q What was Himmler's attitude with regard to these investigations? Himmler was given a report on the matter at once. Himmler was currently kept informed about the progress made by the proceedings. Himmler displayed considerable activity. He himself ordered that the investigation was to be carried out in the strictest manner. It Was only with his authority that it was possible to as much as pass through the gates of concentration camps. In the middle of 1944 an order to the contrary from Himmler suddenly appeared. He, as supreme judge of the SS Legal System, ordered that the proceedings against Koch should bring to an end any judicial investigation inside concentration camps. Koch would be sentenced to death and he would be publicly hanged before the detainees.
Pohl was to direct the hanging personally and he would speak appropriate words to the guards, who would fall in. The remaining perpetrators would report their crimes voluntarily and in the event of such a voluntary report he might possibly reprieve them. Anyone not reporting in time could only expect death through judicial sentence. The chief of the main department of the SS legal system rejected this order from Himmler. He did not, however, achieve a final decision from Himmler, but Himmler tolerated it in the future that further proceedings were thrown out. The chief department of the SS legal system intentionally did not yet complete the case against Koch at that moment in order to have the possibility of extending the investigating activities to other camps, something which was actually achieved. The commissions from the criminal police department, which was withdrawn already on the strength of Himmler's orders, once more became active, and from the autumn of '44 further investigations were carried out on the broadest basis. Orders which were necessary for the purpose encountered Pohl's continuous resistance and they were issued, therefore, by the personal judge of the Reichsfuehrer, and that man not even Pohl succeeded in bypassing.
DR. PELCKMANN: The details of this dramatic play between Pohl, Himmler and the SS legal system are also described in Dr. Morgen's affidavits.
Q Did you, Mr. Witness, discover measures, in the course of these investigations, or orders from Himmler or Hitler regarding the biological extermination of Jewry?
A No. We neither ever saw such orders nor did we ever succeed, on the strength of our investigating work, to get hold of them or to gain knowledge of them in any other manner. Such incredible orders were unimagined to us. Himmler had always shown us his ideal fact, cleanliness, decency, fight against crime at all costs. At the end of 1943 he told me personally, on the occasion of a report, that he was confirming these principles expressly. That a system of mass extermination could exist here was an idea which, considering the existing circumstances and situations, no one could possibly think upon. In concentration camps We found incredibly horrible conditions and we learned certain matters which had shaken us, but that thought did not exist. Names like Hoess and Eichmann did crop up during our proceedings and proceedings were, in fact, instituted against both, which at the end of the war were still in their initial stages; but Hoess and Eichmann were names, as far as we were concerned, just like Brown or Jones.
No one could possibly expect that behind these men there were hiding the henchmen of a dreadful system of extermination. When, at the end of 44 and the beginning of '45, were approaching the actual extent of crimes in concentration camps somewhat more closely, when we discovered that crimes were being carried out by order, this system of defense between Pohl, Mueller and Grawitz still appeared incredible, because if actual orders from above had been available and carried out by these three persons, then it would have been easy for them, no doubt, to go to Himmler and to demand the exclusion of the legal system from these matters.
7 Aug M LJG 7-1 results of our investigation, did not have any judicial way of proving that mass exterminations on a large scale, not to mention the biological extermination of Jewry, were and had been carried out before realizing that they were crimes to a frightful extent. They were being investigated from the point of view of individual perpetrators. Central Department, by a Colonel Quinn (Q-u-i-n-n). It is called " SS in Dachau". Unfortunately I cannot put it before the Tribunal at this time because I had to return to the library but it is generally known. It contains testimony given by a ....
THE PRESIDENT: You could have taken a copy of the document. You cannot tell us what the document is if you cannot produce it. The fact that it had to go back to the library is no reason why you don't have it. There would have been no objection to your bringing a copy of it.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I attempt to present it after the recess, Mr. President?
DR. PELCKMANN: It contains further....
DR. PELCKMANN: In that case I shall postpone that question. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Mr. Witness, evidence has been submitted to this Tribunal about the gas chambers at Auschwitz and other places where millions of Jews were murdered. You, on the other hand, discovered, during your investigation, that individual persons and a small circle of persons were committing the crimes which you have described. Is it possible, on the strength of your personal knowledge, that this same, considerably small circle of persons, could be responsible for the destruction of millions?
A Yes. Investigation of the SS legal system, and particularly the final stages of the investigation just before the end 7 Aug M LJG 7-2 of the war, proves conclusively responsible for the so matters too.
Otherwise, these incredible matters could not possibly have escaped the notice of the legal system.
Q Did you gather, from your conversations with Dr. Morgen any further knowledge which night support these assumptions?
A Dr. Morgen was one of my subjects. During the entire years that he was attached to the Reich Criminal Police Department he was handling investigations of concentration camps. Dr. Morgen has considerable knowledge, as I know today that he has talked to these carding out these mass exterminations, and he gained the deepest insight into all these matters. He proved the fact that the origin of the exterminations of Jews cannot be found in the SS, but in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer.
THE PRESIDENT: I understood from you that you were putting in two affidavits from Dr. Morgen, is that right?
DR. PELCKMANN: Three, von three, Mr. President.
The president; Three - five, if you like, but this witness cannot tell us what Dr. Morgen says. Dr. Morgen must speak for himself from this affidavit.
DR. PELCKMANN: In that case, perhaps I may have permission to come to this when I submit the affidavits. BY DR. PELCKMANN: are here not concerned with perpetration's by the individual, but the carrying out of the Party program regarding the Jewish questions and these crimes at Auschwitz. what can you say, based on your own knowledge and experience of fighting these crimes and regarding this subject? in the SS and that ideal faith was that which the member of the SS would see as one who carried out the Party program. Hitler's order for the biological extermination of Jewry, as I know it today.......
THE PRESIDENT: He said that ever and ever again, that 7 Aug M LJG 7-3 Himmler showed his ideal faith in the SS.
He said it before, you know. He should not have to say it more than once.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I not ask him what his attitude is regarding the allegations of the Prosecution about these matters and the extermination of Jews in Auschwitz? Also about the immediate outcome, so far as the members of the SS were concerned, of the principles which the SS Were taught.....
THE PRESIDENT: How can he give evidence about that? He can tell us what he saw and what he did. He hasn't told us yet whether he has ever been in the concentration camps.
BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Mr. Witness, did you know anything about the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police in the East as they have been mentioned here in this trial?
A I know nothing of that. I know that the Security Police were stationed in the operational zone in the East and they were carrying out security measures. That happened to be the task of the Security Police. In that connection the Security Police never gained knowledge of any other matters and it was only here that we heard about these matters for the first time. the SS if the task which they were given, or existing orders, did not appeal to them?
A Such a possibility did not exist at all. Duty in the Waffen SS Was military duty, recognized and regulated by law. Even these members of the Waffen SS who had joined as volunteers became inducted into the compulsory service When the law changed. Resigning from the Waffen SS was therefore only possible by means of deserting, and then the deserter would have had to expect the full consequences of the law. of the SS were so extensive and applied to so many cases of illegal acts that its illegality could not have remained hidden -- hidden from the members of the SS.
A The SS was not a unit. I have already described that it is an organization of the SS. A member of the SS had no possible way of knowing of the illegality of the General SS or the Waffen SS. He never saw such crimes committed and so he could not come to the conclusion that he was working for a criminal organization. He could not possibly have known of the crimes which were being committed because they are only becoming known now.
DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, finally, if you will permit me to do so, I should like to put cue more question to the witness because he was occupied with the compiling of affidavits together with a certain staff. If this High Tribunal would care to ascertain the manner of the collection of these affidavits and how it was taking place, then this witness can give information on this subject.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. You may ask him. BY DR. PELCKMANN: printed forms in various fields, offering a survey of various subjects, fields and spheres which were carried out. Mr. Witness, you exploited and utilized these affidavits, did you not?
A This utilization was carried out under my direction. Fifteen SS internees, all who held judges' positions, were carrying this out. Some 170,000 statements submitted were utilized. 136,213 affidavits and applications, together with evidence, were added to a collection of documents from a number of documents to be heard. These 136,000 statements were sub-divided in document files according to their subjects. In answer to questions put by the defense in connection with accusations raised against the officials ...
Q From where did you get this considerable number of affidavits? To a smaller extent, from the French zone. No affidavits whatever came from the Russian zone and from the Austrian zone.
Q When surveying and analyzing these affidavits, how did you proceed?
Q I don't want the details ...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, what I understood the Witness to say was that there were 170,000 statements utilized, and from these 170,000 statements, 136,000 affidavits were obtained. Well, how were they obtained? The Tribunal would like to know. Before whom were they sworn?
DR. PELCKMANN: That the witness will be able to explain, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS: These 170,000 affidavits came from members of the SS. Out of this little figure of 170,000, 136,213 affidavits have, in fact, been digested by myself. The remaining affidavits were not exploited because partly they were irrelevant and partly because they were not submitted in the correct form.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean the whole 170,000 were sworn affidavits?
DR. PELCKMANN: Sworn before whom, Mr. Witness?
THE WITNESS: These 170,000 were partly sworn. The 136,000 affidavits, however, were all sworn. It was the decision of the High Tribunal that the swearing of affidavits before a German lawyer would only be valid if carried out before May of this year, and the swearing of affidavits after May of this year would have to take place before an Allied officer. That, however, did not take place in all the camps. After May, 1946, affidavits were still sworn before legal persons and in accordance with the decision of the High Tribunal, they would have to be discarded as invalid. For that reason only 136,000 affidavits remained. BY DR. PELCKMANN: those affidavits should be chosen time were favorable to the defense of the SS? thousands of statements are available and utilized, whereas, in reference to other points, only a few affidavits are concerned in the list. the bulk of the SS members are facing the indictment without understanding It. They cannot imagine, to show you an example, that they were working in a conspiracy. They cannot imagine that they have prepared a war of aggression. For that reason, members of the SS are only testifying to such facts that they Know from their work in the SS. The serviceman at the front is talking about his experience at the front, and the member of the General SS about the type of his work during the years from? 1933 to 1939.
recognize it later from the affidavit -- if, for instance, under the figure Roman No. 4, figure 1-9; namely, the question, if there was a question there, "Were excesses in concentration camps forbidden?" -- Now, if there are only two explanations regarding this point available, does that then mean that only two out of hundreds of thousands of members of the SS can confirm this prohibition?
Q And it also was important that all others know the opposite?
A No, that is just what it does mean. The members of the SS, when the; were questioned were not able to make a statement about that statement at all because they don't know about it; therefore, they can give neither an answer in the negative nor in the positive sense and for that reason they pass over it without giving a statement. their activity and also on the attitude adopted by the bulk of the SS men again the impression that this exploitation of approximately one hundred thirty-six thousand affidavits reproduces the average knowledge of the bulk of the SS men although the entire strength of the SS was, of course, considerably more than one hundred thirty-six thousand? low-ranking members of the officers who represented the bulk already had been released at the moment when the affidavits were obtained. The result had been noted that in many camps lots of technical difficulties existed; also in many camps the question regarding the subject of evidence was uniform -- after this and from the Russian Zone and from Austria, statements of opinion are lacking altogether. In spire of these deficiencies, I believe on the strength of my own knowledge about the typical activities of the SS, that I can say that the total picture of these affidavits can be considered typical for the SS.
DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, I have no further questions to put to this Witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.)
DR. LATERNSER Mr. President, I ask for the approval of the examination of the witness which will take about three minutes, to clear up one point which has come up during this examination.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the point, Dr. Laternser?
DR. LATERNSER: I should like to ask the witness about a point which came up during the direct examination by the defense counsel for the SS, about the guarding of the concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: How does that affect the High Command?
DR. LATERNSER: There could be a connection from the charge against the accused group that might possibly arise.
THE PRESIDENT: You know, Dr. Laternser that the Tribunal reject your application.
7 Aug M LJG 7-1
THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution wish to cross-examine? BY MR. ELWYN JONES: not? the SS Legal System? or the German Army, about the murder of Jews by SS men?
A I don't understand the question.
Q I will repeat it. Would a serious view have been taken in the Waffen SS or the German. Army about the murder of Jews by SS men?
A If the destruction of Jews on Himmler's orders had been known in the SS, or as the prosecution says in the Wehrmact, they would certainly have concerned themselves about it. resulted in a death penalty being inflicted on him?
A I cannot answer this question in simple words. It touches an important problem. September 1939, which shows the dealings of murder in the SS by the highest Judicial authorities and the German Army. It is D-421 which will become GB-567. The first page of the memorandum - "The Chief of the Army Judiciary announces by telephone. The Field Court Martial of the Kempf Armoured Division has sentenced an SS man of the SS Artillery Regiment to three years imprisonment and a military police sergeant major to 9 years penal servitude for manslaughter. After about 50 Jews, who had been used during the day to repair a bridge, had finished their work in the evening, those two men drove them all into a synagogue and shot them all without any reason. The sentence is submitted to the Commander-in-Chief of the 3rd Army for confirmation. The proposal of the representative of the prosecution is capital 7 Aug M LJG 7-2 punishment for murder.
Sentence on the day after the act." Then their follows " Initials". There is a marginal note: "General Halder requests information on the decision of the Commander in Chief of the 3rd Army." Then "Purple pencil notes: to the Adjutant of the Commander in Chief of the Army." In the next page you will see the curse of this history. "Telegram to the Military Judge of the 4th rank, from the bottom, attached to the Quartermaster General in Berlin. SS man Ernst is granted extenuating circumstances because he was induced to participate in the shooting by a corporal handing him a rifle. He was in a state of irritation owing to numerous atrocities committed by Poles against persons of German race. As an SS man, particularly sensitive at the sight of Jews, to the hostile attitude of Jewry to the Germans, he therefore acted quite thoughtlessly in a youthful spirit of adventure. An excellent soldier not punished before." Then there are purple pencil notes on the bottom, "to the Adjutant of the Commander in Chief of the Army", lead pencil note, "telephone call from Oberkriegsgerichtsrat Dr. Sattmann to the effect that so far as has been ascertained the Commander in Chief of the Army Head quarters will not confirm both sentences." Then added, in lead pencil, "The sentences have been dropped under the Amnesty. Punishment was announced before the Amnesty. Nine years penal servitude for the police sergeant major changed to 3 years imprisonment. Throe years imprisonment for SS man, unchanged. Confirmed by Army Headquarters." Now, witness, that was a clear countenancing of mass murder by the judicial authorities of the German Army, was it not? of the evidence regarding explanation for the mild sentence for the two SS men, it is the personal opinion of Kreigsgerichtsrat Lipski, who passed on the sentence. I am therefore not in a position, since I do not know the other facts in the case, to judge whether the reasons which the presiding Judge gives deviate 7 Aug M LJG 7-3 from the facts or not.