5 Aug M LJG 10-2 The witness said there were no further experiments and the way the Document is put to him, he says he assumes. What is the use of examining him about this?
DR. PELCKMANN: Witness, was there further reason for your assumption that the experiments were not being continued? Was it a fact that as a result of your first protest to Himmler, he was informed of your attitude? Tell the Tribunal further if on the basis of your conversation with Himmler he had to be careful in the continuing of those experiments?
THE WITNESS: When I reported to Himmler, he was quite upset and he told me that these matters did not concern me and that Rascher had merit and that I did not know anything about these things. I said it was quite impossible and Himmler said he would turn the case over to the Higher SS Court. Of course, I could not understand that Himmler know about the details. BY DR. PELCKMANN: you just new made, in conclusion, I should like to ask you, arc you of the conviction today that the membership of the General SS, the mass membership of the SS, was deceived by the higher leadership?
A Yes. I found out after I talked with my comrades and I talked with many comrades during the period of my arrest, I can state that the mass of these men are bitterly disappointed with these things that they experienced, things which they just now learned. They cannot quite comprehend how Himmler could have brought them together with things of such a nature. I am not only speaking for myself, but all the other men of the SS and these men of the SS dept their loyalty to the last hour for the honor of the Fatherland. As loyalty which was not given to us. We followed the leadership and followed it in good faith and we were fired with pure idealism. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What did you mean by the statement that the Allgemeine 5 Aug M LJG 10-3 SS had ceased to exist in the last part of the war?
there was no General SS loft in the country. There were 10,000 men in the SS in round figures at the end of the year 1944 and when the Volkssturm was called up, that was the first time we know how many men were still at our disposal. There were only 1200 men left, but they were not able to do service any longer in cur department. For practical purposes this unit was dissolved the Standard had also been dissolved. All of that had been dissolved and there was nothing left. When an honor guard was required for the SS Memorial service, it was not even possible to furnish an honor guard as the men were all in service. For all practical purposes, it was dissolved. We had to call in women, old people and others who were not members of the SS at all. of the concentration camps in Germany?
A No, I did not wish to state that. There were members of the SS who received orders from the General SS, they were celled up orderly and they were not kept in the SS any longer. I should say since 1934, they were active and had their own lives. How many people like that there were all together, that is in proportion to the entire membership of the SS, I do not have the exact picture as to how many. I don't think I am going too far to say that at Dachau perhaps there were fifty or sixty men on the staff of the Kommandantur.
Q. Are you saying there were 50 or 60 men at Dachau who ceased to be members of the SS?
A No, I don't really state that. They were our uniform and they belonged to the Kommandantur corps of the concentration camp, but in practice they had nothing in common with us any longer for we hardly had any more contacts with them.
Q Had you no responsibility for them?
Q Well, another question. Had the Waffen SS any contact with or any relation to the Allgemeine SS except through the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler?
A Only at the very first, at its origin. The Verfuegungstruppe was the organization from which the Waffen SS originated. Men of the General SS who wanted to become soldiers volunteered. This is a topic on which a general of the Waffen SS will testify as he is more informed on this point than I am. Contacts were only a friendship level. We called on each other. Himmler, had no connection with the General SS? when it came to opinions they had the same political principles which applied to both and they were held by both but, as I have already said, I am not in a position to testify as I never served in the Waffen SS myself but only received the rank of a Waffen SS general at the time the prisoner of war system was turned over to us. Unit and they were and characterized by external insignia as well. They had insignia and instead of the two bolts of lighting or posed by ten Water SS they in turn carried a death head and they were another undid of troops if I may characterized them as such, and during the war they were refined for they were younger people. They were replaced by men -SS used in concentration camps? You are telling me about the *otenkopf.
A During the period on war chose who were wounded, *---* these he were not fit for service at the front were probably transferred to the guard units and I assume those who came from hospitals. If you wish to call that a unit or organization then I believe you might say that, yes. Munich and South Bavarian district, how long had he been in office? Your Honor, assumed office in the summer of 1942 and he remained until the end.
Q And you were in close contact with him, I suppose? My official relationship, if I may put it that way, as I have already testified, and as Geisler was the Reich Commissioner of Defense and also Bavarian Minister of the Interior, as such he was my superior.
Q Was there any other superior police officer over you?
A I did not understand the last part of the question. There seems to have been a technical disturbance.
Q Was there any police officer in Munich over you?
Q What police had you under you? after 1942 and I was replaced by another General at that time. Up until 1942 I had command of the Security Police under me. There was a commander of the Schutzpolizei in every large city and this was given to the police president for the regulation of police traffic and other matters applying to the streets and in addition to that, there was a criminal police office, dealing with the political police, that is the secret state police and the security police. But that was something with which the police president had nothing to do with. Those were offices which worked independently.
Q. Was the Gestapo under you ?
A. No.
Q. The SD ?
A. No.
Q. well, then what police were under you ?
A. As police president -
Q. There is no answer coming through.
A. As police president I had charge of the city of Munich.
Q. Will you tell me what police there were under you ?
A. Which police were subordination me? I have already stated as police president and only as police president I had command of the Schutzpolizei with about fourteen hundred officials and I could use them just as they were needed in the city. In addition, I had the supervision of the criminal police, I could give directions to hem in my capacity as police president but not in my capacity as higher police leader. My other colleagues who were not police presidents, who were not higher officials, they could only carry on in their own sections and make suggestions.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all. The witness can retire.
DR. Pelckmann Is it agreeable now, Mr. President, for me not to call the witness until two o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: No, call the -witness.
DR. Pelckmann: I should like to call the witness Brill.
ROBERT BRILL, called as a witness, testified as follows : BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Will you state your full name, please ?
A. Robert Brill.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure turth and will withhold and add nothing ?
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
BY DR. Pelckmann
Q. Witness, what activity did you carry through which put you in a position to testify here about the affairs of the SS ?
A. For twelve years I was with the Waffen SS. In 1933 I started my service as a private in the Leibstandarte. I was promoted to an officer and then for four years with interruptions, due to my service at the front, I was in the Ergaenzungs Amt of the Waffen SS. At the end of the war I was or dinance officer in a SS Panzer Division.
Q. What does that mean, "Ergaenzungs Amt" of the Waffen SS ?
A. The Ergaenzungs Amt of the Waffen SS concerned itself with the investigation and recruiting of recruits to the Waffen SS as well as with the supervision of the members who were serving in the Waffen SS. I was in the Ergaenzungs Ant and head of a main department and as such, I dealt with the recruitment end its supervision. However, I had sufficient insight into other departments of the Waffen SS so that I can testify here before this Court.
Q. Is it correct to say that you could watch the development as far as figures are concerned in the Waffen SS ?
A. Yes.
Q. And now tell the Tribunal as exactly as possible, and pay special atte tion to the question, were they volunteers or called into the Waffen SS ?
A. The Waffen SS originated from the SS Verfuegungstruppe. Several hundr men made up the Leibstandarte. In 1933 it had been set up as a guard and representative troop for the Reichschancellory. Through the expansion of this representative and supervisory task, the Verfuegungstruppe in the years 1934 until 1939 was made up of volunteers from all the levels of the German population. At the beginning of the war the Verfuegungstruppe had about 18,000 members. Service in the Verfuegungstruppe was regular military service and, in addition to that on the first of September, 1939 -- the Death Head Unit was also in existence and had about eight thousand men -- these two units from the fall of 1939 until the spring of 1940 had added about another 36,000 men.
These men, on the basis of emergency measures were called to service as an additional force for the police. These 36,000 men, together with the Verfuegungstruppe and the Death Head Unit, made up the Waffen SS. spring of 1940 which appeared in a regular service circular in the fall of 1940 dealt with the recruiting and the disposition for regular army service of the Waffen SS. Beginning in 1940 we had 100,000 men in the Waffen SS. There were 36,000 who had been drafted and 64,000 volunteers.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess now.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Transcript for 5 August-Morning should have the following correction made on pages 15094 and 15095:- The name "Dr. Gawlik" appearing in the English record in all instances is incorrectly stated and should appear as Dr. Pelckmann.
The following corrections should be made to the page numbers of the Transcript of 5 August-Afternoon, from page 15103 as follows:
" 15106 ......... 15104 " 15105 ......... 15105 " 15104 ......... 15106 " 15106 ......... 15107 (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 5 August, 1946.)
BY DR. PELCKMANN: had 100,000 men, 54,000 volunteers and 36,000 draftees. Will you continue about the development?
A In the same year, 1940, we had 50,000 more recruits for the Waffen-SS; 2,000 to 3,000 were drafted and the others were volunteers. In 1941 we deceived 70,000 men, 3,000 drafted, the rest volunteers. In 1942 ... THE PRESIDENT: Wouldn't it be quicker and just as accurate to take all these figures as they have been given before the Commission? Presumably they are all in writing in the evidence given before the Commission. It is not necessary to repeat a series of figures of this sort for us. You could pass on to something which would be less statistical.
DR. PELCKMANN: Very well. the basis of your testimony one could say that 40 to 50 percent of those called to the Waffen-SS were drafted forcibly. In your opinion was this relationship true at the end of the war?
A No, by no means. At the end of the war we had about 550,000 men in the Waffen-SS. Up to October 1944, 320,000 men, including dead, missing, and seriously wounded, were known to be casualties. It was considered that the majority of the dead were volunteers. I know this from reports on casualties. This indicates the fact that at the end of the war there were more draftees in the Waffen-SS than volunteers. knowledge.
A For four years I worked on this material. I prepared statistics and made reports so that I have retained these figures in mind very accurately. In my office in Berlin I handled card indexes, etc. They were there when I left in January 1945.
left in January 1945. many men were drafted into the Waffen-SS. For the earlier years, 1940, 1941 and 1942, that has not been brought out before the Commission. Perhaps you would give examples for your statement that as early as that non-volunteers were taken into the Waffen-SS?
A Yes. The 36,000 men who were drafted I have already mentioned. In addition, in 1940 we took men from the police to set up our Field Gendarmerie, We took men from the Reichpost to secure our Fieldpost. We took civilian employees of the SS-Verfuegungs Truppe in 1941 particularly. We frequently took personnel for our cavalry unit from the army. I recall further that about 800 army men were taken into the Waffen-SS in the summer of 1941. Doctors and technicians also were drafted in 1940 and 1941. In addition, resettled persons had become subject to military duty. With the resettlement details we drafted men who did not report voluntarily. In 1942 we deviated considerably from the principle of volunteers. About 15,000 racial Germans were taken into our division Prinz Eugen, about 10,000 men were taken from the police and the army for the police division, and 2,000 men of the Reichpost who were with the army so-called front auxiliaries were taken into the Waffen-SS. They were civilian post-office employees with the army.
Q Can you recall the transfer, on Hitler's orders, of formations of the Luftwaffe?
A Yes, that was particularly in 1944. Also in 1943 units of the Luftwaffe were taken over. I recall, for example, on agreement of Reichs Marshal Goering with our commander, Sepp Dietrich, of 1943, 3,000 men of the Luftwaffe were transferred. In 1944 many men were transferred from the army as well.
about the motives for volunteering?
A Yes. In my position I saw thousands of requests for admission. I can say that up to 1939 the enthusiasm of the SS for decent conduct was the main reason for volunteering, but in addition there were many volunteers for professional reasons.
Q And how was it after the beginning of the war? that the men wanted to do their military service in a clean, modern, elite formation. Professional reasons also played a part in volunteering. Very few came to the Waffen SS for political reasons after the beginning of the war. I know that part of the volunteers were recruited by over-enthusiastic recruiters from the Hitler Youth or the Reich Labor Service. Formally they were volunteers but actually they were under a certain moral pressure. I know this from the letters of complaints which reached the Ergaenzungsamt.
Q Letters from whom?
Q How old were these boys?
A They were mostly seventeen. They had volunteered, but their parents did not want them to, or, on the basis of the speech by a recruiter, they had reporter and their parents did not agree.
Q Could a volunteer have recalled his application? Could he have left the Waffen SS? Could he have left, say, because he learned of same crimes, such as are alleged by the Prosecution?
A We, that would not have been possible. If the man once volunteered, there was no way out. Since he was drafted with an order from the Wehrmacht and to avoid punishment he had to report, once he had reported to the troops he was under military law and could not leave the Waffen SS.
Q Did you receives complaints in this connection? Were there complaints that these volunteers were used for any sorts of crimes? from draftees who thought that the Waffen SS would be given especially arduous duties and would have especially heavy casualties. For this reason, they wanted to go back again.
It also happened that the parents were afraid for their boys and also sent letters to us, that the boys who, on the basis of the Fuehrer order could have been drafted at seventeen, without the approval of their parents, should come back, but we paid no attention to these complaint. about the process of selection for the Waffen SS; for example, whether purely political reasons existed for the acceptance of a volunteer or a draftee. them myself. I can say that we were interested only in healthy young men. We did not ask whether a man had a communistic attitude or whether his parents were deeply religious. We were interested only in young men of firm character A young man who was a leader in the SA or the General SS we accepted much more readily into the Waffen SS than an older Party member who had a physical disability. We wanted young, clean soldiers. Of course later, in the case of those who were drafted and transferred, the selection was no longer so strict.
Q From these inspections, did you have any secret inductions?
A No. Our inductions were always in public places. I remember that before the war, in Danzig, which was still under Polish authority, we held inductions for the Waffen SS. The manner of our selections was not kept secret either. Anyone could see it in the recruiting writings, which were published by the millions.
Q Did members of foreign countries servo in the Waffen SS?
A Yes. Our racial Germans should be especially mentioned. They formed the majority of these soldiers. The Reich had reached agreements and state treaties with the countries that these people were to do their military service in the Waffen SS. From the Germanic countries we took almost exclusively volunteers for our divisions, the Viking and other Germanic units.
In 1943 -- and more in 1944 -- we also set up foreign units. Most of these people were volunteers, but many of them were drafted on the basis of the laws of their own countries. When these people, people of completely different racial, religious, and psychological backgrounds, came into the ranks of the Waffen SS, they were allowed to retain their own characteristics.
foreigners was, since it is important for the charge that it was a unified ideological unit. To the end of 1944 we had 410,000 Reich Germans, 300,000 racial Germans, 150,000 foreigners, and about 50,000 Germanic soldiers in the Waffen SS. Eberstein. You surely know the relationship of the General SS to the inductions into the Waffen SS. For example, was a fuehrer of the General SS taken into the Waffen SS with the same rank?
A One cannot speak of a transfer in a military sense. The General SS was a voluntary organization. The Waffen SS was considered a component part of the Wehrmacht. A number of the General SS, up to 1942, felt drawn to the Waffen SS. First they had to volunteer. Only after 1943 could we take the men without their volunteering. I Would emphasize that it was quite impossible for a man of the General SS to have volunteered prior to 1942 and to have been rejected because of physical disability. After 1942, of course, we no longer rejected members of the General SS, but it was also quite possible that the member of the General SS could do his military service in other parts of the Wehrmacht, and I estimate that the majority of the General SS at the beginning of the war was taken into the Wehrmacht. A fuehrer of the General SS, unless he already had military rank, was taken into the Waffen SS as a common soldier. On the other hand, officers of the Wehrmacht were taken into the Waffen SS with equivalent rank. was in no way evaluated as pre-military training, because the member of the General SS from the beginning had to do military service in the Waffen SS or the Wehrmacht just as a non-member did?
A Yes, of course. That is how it was. of the Wehrmacht and not as the Prosecution says, a Nazi troop?
A Yes. At least that can be emphasized from my sphere. Only the selection was carried out according to SS directives, while selection for the Waffen SS depended on approval of the Wehrbezirkskommando.
Induction into the Waffen SS took place with the induction order of the Wehrmacht. The volunteer contingents of the Waffen SS were prescribed by the High Command of the Wehrmacht, and forcible inductions took place on the basis of the orders of the High Command of the Wehrmacht. One can also say that we had no connection whatever with the Party, for the Party gave us no orders.
The few party members who were in the party SS for the period of their service paid no party dues.
They did not receive awards of the party. The whole replacement and supervision of the Waffen SS according to the high command of the army, and the army service regulation 8115. Since service in the Waffen SS and in the Army were practically equal, in the fall of 1944 we carried out the long sought merger with the army replacement offices. to the witness von Eberstein, I should like to ask you something about the composition of the guard personnel of the concentration camps. Is it true, as the Prosecution asserts, that the general SS during the war took over the guard duty at the concentration camps ?
A That cannot be said. The 8,000 men of the Totenkopf formation, of which I spoke previously at the beginning of the war, consisted only in part of members of the general SS. In October, 1939, when the SS Totenkopf division was set up, it was made into a front unit. These men were replaced by draftees. They included, I should perhaps say, 3,000 men of the general SS. But these men were taken from the general SS by the emergency service regulation, which could equally have been applied to the induction of other men, which was done in part, for example men of the Reichs Kriegerbund and of the Kyffhaeuserbund. During the whole war the general SS did not replace the guards for concentration camps unless one or another SS man who was incapable of service at the front was transfersred there. called emergency service regulation was and to whom it could be applied. as far as I am informed, a regulation of the Reich according to which, in time of such emergency, any member of the German Reich could be inducted for special service to the Reich. I have al ready mentioned this morning that 36,000 men were taken from the general SS on the basis of this regulation by the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
The Reich Ministry of the Interior, through its program, as far as I know took almost 1,000,000 such people for police reserves, including these 36,000 men of the general SS. made clear by document SS 28. Can you tell us who took over the guarding of concentration camps during the war ? and members of the German Wehrmacht guarded the concentration camps. I may perhaps explain it briefly. In 1940 and 1941 the guard personnel of the concentration camps were only replaced to a small extent. For the most part, there were members of the Kiefhaeuserbund, the warriors league, and the Reichskriegerbund, who came partly as volunteers and portly as draftees. In 1942 racial Germans and volunteers from the Reich who did not, however, volunteer for guards for concentration camps by the Waffen SS, but who, because of unsuitability for service at the front, couldn't be put in the Waffen SS, these people were made guards. In 1943, the recruiting was similar. In this year also, a contingent of veterans came, and in 1944 the last young men of the concentration camp guards were to be sent to the front. In this year the great majority of the guards in the concentration camps were members of the German Wehrmacht. I know that the OKH reached an agreement with the inspector of the concentration camp that the army would take over the guarding. I myself saw the order. 10,000 men were mentioned in it.
Q Can you give us figures on the concentration camps ?
A Yes. In the SS main office, the army had supervision of the guards at the concentration camps.
Q What does "Wehrueberwachung" mean ? dex so that in case he was transferred, the office concerned would know exactly where the man was and when he would, be a-vailable again.
As I was saying, the record was kept of these men at the SS Hauptamt. I know that about 7,000 such men were racial Germans, that about 7,000 were from the Army, and some from the Luftwaffe, and that there were 10,000 men who had volunteered for the Waffen SS, but as a result of unsuitability for front service were simply transferred to the guard personnel of concentration camps. This included the Kyffhaeuser members whom I have already mentioned, also SA members, persons without a party, and so forth. About 6,000 men at the end of 1944 were from the Notdienstverordneten and the old Frontkaempferverbanden, and a few wounded members of the waffen SS.
Q What do you mean by that ? and were no longer able to do military service at the front, but were still suitable for guard duty. no matter where they came from, were volunteers or whether they were drafted ? tration camps. The racial Germans as well as the Reich Germans who were used as guards were assigned there. The members of the Wehrmacht also, as far as I know, did not volunteer for this service but were sent for any order. of concentration craps ? tion camps was the inspectorate KL. This inspectorate KL was in 1939 or at the beginning of 1940 based on the general inspector for the Totenkopfverbaends. In 1942 the inspectorate EX as Amtsgruppe D was transferred to the WVHA.
with many other SS agencies, was not had by me. In the first place, this Amtsgruppe D was far away from us in Berlin. In addition, with the exception of the assignment of a few men, which was by telephone, we had no personal contact. your position, give any information as to whether members of the wafer SS in general had the opportunity to learn anything about the crimes which are now charged against the SS as a whole? the Waffen SS at the beginning of the war. These people were 13, 14, perhaps 16 years old When they came into the Waffen SS, they were only at the front. If they went home for a few days on leave, they did not worry about politics or enemy propaganda. They wanted to see their families. Tens of thousands of wounded non in hospitals had only one desire -- to regain their health. They did not listen to the enemy radio either so that they could have learned anything. I talked to many of those men, and I know they were interested only in their military service. Only one per cent of those inducted were employed in the office and agencies of the Waffen SS. Very few of these were in position to learn anything. However, they did not and would not tell us anything about what kind of service they had there. In every office of the Waffen SS and SS as a whole there was a poster with an order from the Fuehrer which said, "You must know only as much as belongs to your official duties, and concerning what you learn, you must be silent."
Q Was not this order, therefore, a military one? of the Reich. When you were with the staff of the Leibstandarte, did you learn anything, for example, about the proposed invasion of Austria? The Leibstandarte was no exception. I recall very well how it was with the entry into Austria. Although the Leibstandarte was one of the first formations to march into Austria, we made no preparations for this entry. I know exactly, since I was secretary with the staff, that neither the Adjutant nor the Hauptsturmfuehrer knew anything half an hour before we left as to where we were going.
When the Leibstandarte was in Austria, there was such enthusiasm that none of us would have thought that a crime had been committed here. The fact that we, as Leibstandarte, moved into Austria was a matter of course to us because the Fuehrer was there and we, as his bodyguard, went to Austria, too. you want to deny that millions of killings have taken place which are now being charged against the Waffen SS? point. I can only repeat what we told each other. The Allies have given us a big puzzle with the discovery of this crime. We were always trained in honor, discipline and decency. For five years we fought in good faith for cur fatherland. Now we sit behind barbed wire and everyone tells us we are murderers and criminal. I can only say one thing, and I say this for my comrades to whom I have spoken -- we did not know of the abominable atrocities of Himmler who betrayed and deceived us by preferring death to responsibility, By committing suicide, he placed himself outside the ranks of the former SS, and this small circle of men who perhaps misunderstood obedience and became his assistants, because they knew how to keep silent. Until today we knew nothing about it.
DR. PELCKMANN: Thank you. I have no more questions.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES: was always trained in honor and decency. Himmler used to come and lecture to your division, the Leibstandarte, you know, did he not? standarte. standarte?
A Yes. As far as I recall, there was a speech when I was at the Ergaenzungsamt. My comrades told me about it.
Q Do you knew what Himmler said?