text, an account from the personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS, and which is an account of the national resettlement carried out by uprooting of farms to make room for German citizens, and the clearing of some villages. Paragraph 3, "All Poles, including those who are being brought into the labor cycle in the Reich are to be given certificates confirming what property they have left behind. They will be informed that they will receive a suitable compensation some time in the form of goods or cash."
Page 29 of the German text, 24 of the English text, paragraph 6, "The communications from persons previously sent to the Reich reporting that they are getting on well there, and the people's realization of the fact that up to now nobody has been treated like the Jews, have already taken away the frightening atmosphere surrounding this system, of grouping."
Then I want you to turn to page 31 of the German text, and 26 . . the Tribunal will find it on page 26 of the English text.
"Measures for the further Transfer of Populations" That carries the heading of the Personal Staff, Reichsfuehrer SS. As many quarters express themselves against the transfer of populations on the grounds that it causes too much unrest among the foreigners, thus disturbing production, The following measures have been decided upon;
"1) Verbal propaganda will spread news about the discontinuation of these transfers.
"2) No authority will announce anything before the actual moment when the transfer of population is to be carried out. Planning will be done secretly.
"The time for immigration will be fixed for after the spring tilling of the fields, so that the foreigners will carry out the cultivation of the land, and the new settlers will already be able to make use of the harvest. This has the advantage that, under the above mentioned presuppositions, the foreigners will till their fields in all districts, while the German settlers will not run the danger, in view of the shortness of the time of possibly being hindered in their spring work.
"The transfer of Poles should be carried out in such a manner that the goads element are put, as much as possible voluntarily, in districts cleared by the Security Police, and the transfer is entitled 'The Establishment of security in the Partisan districts'. The bad interments will be taken away gradually where they are not employed as auxiliary workers.
"The announcement of the time of immigration will be made only on the day of the transfer of population.
"All villages will be occupied in advance by the 'Landwacht' Country Guard) in all parts of the organization formed by settlers, who, having received previous training, are to save the use of our own SS forces."
The noon the next page there follows a memorandum by Blobochnik, setting out the details of the technique of res*-*lement and I turn to the next document, page 34 of the German text, 29 of the English text. That is Globochnik's final letter forwarding this report and in dealing with the Reinhardt action. It is dated the 4th of November 1943, when, as the Tribunal sees, Globochnik was the Higher SS and Police Chief in the Operational Zone of the Adriatic Coastal Area. It is addressed to Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer: I concluded Operation Reinhardt, which I have been directing on the government-general, on the 19th of October 1943 and have dissolved all camps."
The last paragraph but throe: "During a visit, you, Reichsfuehrer, held out to me the prospect that a few Iron Crosses might be awarded for the special performances of this hard task after the work had been concluded. Please advise me, Reichsfuchrer, whether I may submit suggestions on this connection.
"I beg to paint out that such an award to the forces of the local SS and Police Chief was authorized for the work in Warsaw, which formed only a comparatively small part of the total work."
In the final document, Himmler sends a letter to Globochnik, saying: "I express to you my thanks and my acknowledgment for the great and unique services which you have performed to the entire German people by carrying out the action Reinhardt." BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Witness, do you still say that you had no knowledge of the use of the SS for the collection of loot, for the use of resettlement, for the driving of people from their homes and for the enslavement of Poles and Jews?
A. No, I had no knowledge of these things.
Q. When did you first discover that Jewish and other people were being exterminated in concentration camps?
A. I have already testified to that a little while ago, that there destructive actions were known to me after I was arrested.
Q. Your connection with the Rascher case in the Spring of 1944 must have given you a very clear idea that extermination was going on.
I repeat my question: Did not your contact with the Rascher case in the Spring of 1944 warn you clearly that extermination and killings were going on in concentration camps?
A. I can refer only to my personal experience and observation and that for the first time the case of Rascher, this case proved to me for the first time that something like that had occurred and I should like to repeat again that in the areas of the Reich, in the internal area of Germany, it was quite impossible to learn of things as they may be seen from the documents before me.
Q. You arrested Rascher on the charge of fraud, didn't you?
A. Rascher, as I have already testified on Saturday, was being suspected first of all ---
Q. Just a moment. Are you going to answer my question directly? Did you arrest Rascher on a charge of fraud?
A. I can concede only that he had already been interned and after, we learned the scope of his crime we kept him in custody until the end. I was a coincidence that the other crimes, the two other crimes of which he had been suspected -- he had been arrested on other charges already and then when these matters came up, of course, he was naturally kept in arrest.
Q. You knew that Rascher had been carrying out experiments on humans and in the course of those experiments, that he had been killing them, didn't you?
A. That, I learned from my conversation with the camp commandant, a physician.
Q. Was Rascher ever charged with murder?
A. I have already testified to that on Saturday already -- unfortunately he was not accused by Himmler. Himmler was the only one who could accuse him for Himmler was the competent judge in that connection -- that is, the accused before a court.
Q. Although you knew in the Spring of 1944 that Himmler's organization was not only criminal but murderers, you continued to servo it for another year?
A. First, despite these reasons, as has been stated by me, there was no possibility of my leaving office and going against the wishes of my superiors.
Q. When you gave the evidence before the Commission on this Rascher matter, do you remember saying --- It is recorded on page 2216 of the transcript for the 6th of July 1946 -- that when you discovered that Rascher was the responsible person for the experiments on living human beings, you saw to it that this crime was not carried out any more? Did you say that?
A. Yes, indeed -- through the act that this man was not dismissed from arrest which otherwise probably would have taken place, -- the other cases had been cleared. There was no more suspicion resting on him and otherwise he would have been dismissed but we did retain him in arrest, for the knowledge of this new crime was added on to the other suspicions.
Q. Did you take any steps to see to it that Rascher was not succeeded by another SS murderer?
A. I do not quite follow you. I do not know the meaning of the sense of the question.
Q. I will explain myself. The Rascher experiments on human beings were contained in Dachau after Rascher was put into disgrace for fraud, was he not?
A. No; the physician who was the deputy and with whom I talked, as was brought to me by the camp commandant, did not carry out any experiments like that. He was the man who had made the report, who reported on those things that Rascher had done and he had told me that he refused to work further.
Q. Are you telling the Tribunal that the experiments and biological research on human beings in Dachau stopped after the dismissal of Rascher?
A. Yes, indeed. I am firmly convinced of that fact. Q. I want you to look at the Journal of the Ahnenerbe, the Ancestral Research Organization for 1944, which was kept by Sievers, the Reich Manager of that organization. It is Exhibit 3546-PS, which will be GB-51. I have made certain extracts from the relevant passages for the convenience of the Tribunal. Now, if you confine your attention to the extracts, you can check them against the original if you wish to do so. You will see that Rascher's name appears in January, the conferences with him on the 28th of January, on the 29 of January, and then over in the next page in March and then in April there is a conference at Station Rascher.
Now, when exactly was it that you had Rascher arrested; what month was it? What month was it that you had Rascher arrested?
A. In which month I cannot tell you. Saturday I testified that it was in the spring of 1944 but I can't give you the exact date; however, I do know from reliable sources that in the beginning of May, after this case was concluded, I looked up Himmler and that case was to have been concluded; thereafter he was under arrest.
Q. In looking at the extract far May, you will see the conferences of the Reichsarzt SS, in which Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Plotner took part. Did you now know that Dr. Plotner took over from Rascher in Dachau?
A. I don't know the name; I don't know the names of the various physicians.
Q. In the entry for the 27th of June, the extract of 31st of May -- first, you see that Sievers had a conference with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Plotner-first of all, with regard to Professor Schilling, I take it that you know who Professor Schilling is, don't you. Do you know Professor Schilling?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. He has recently been condemned to death for his experiments in Dachau, hasn't he?
A. I read that in the papers.
Q. In May, you see, he was having a conference with Dr. Plotner; the 27th of June, there is a conference with regard to the creation of the scientific research station in the concentration camp. The 25th of July, conference with SS Staff. Mauer, in Oranienburg about the use of inmates for scientific purposes; and then on the same page, the 26th of July, Jauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Fischer goes on a journey fastest through all concentration camps in order to fix finally the persons; and then the 21st of October, the proceeding of research of SS Stubaf. Pros. Dr. Hirt, and then the final entry for the 23rd of October 1944, SS Strumbannfuehrer Dr. Poppendieck; taking over of biological research by SS Staff. Dr. Plotner in Dachau. Are you still saying to the Tribunal that all experiments on human beings in Dachau stopped after Rascher went from there?
did not go on any more after the dismissal of Rascher. You told that to the Commission, didn't you, and is it not true?
MR. JONES : If your Lordship please, I am not attemp fore the Commission.
The Tribunal is in possession of all the THE PRESIDENT : Doctor Pelckmann, do you want to re-examine?
BY DR. PRESIDENT Penal Codes that applied to the Camp Dachau.
I should like to bringing in and the dismissing of inmates at this camp?
or the dismissal of inmates from concentration camps. At all connected with this document?
The photostatic copy?
Q. On my copy I can see that a letter was written by a Mr. Winterberger, dated 29 May 1933, and that it was added to the document.
On that date, the 29th of May 1933, where were you? SS, and a personal deputy of Himmler. Were you the personal representative of Himmler? case. I should like to repeat once more. The Higher SS and Police leaders were the representatives of the Reichsfuchrers. Regarding the authority of then and the issuance of orders, the head of the Police and the chief of Order Police and Security Police, were the representatives of the Reichsfuchrer SS. The Higher SS and Police Leader according to the wording of the decree, had neither the right, not the duty, to carry out these instructions, and they were merely permitted, to make suggestions. well?
A No. The concentration camps were of Amtsgru*ppe D. The administration belonged to that group alone. They had their own Official channel. It was only possible to enter the camp with the permission of these agencies. correction 4024, did you ever discuss with Pohl, the problem of the of the concentration camps? at this office once, my conversation dealt purely with the acquisition of some property in Munich for the General SS, (Allgemeine SS) which was subordinate to me. We discussed the buying of this property. I believe this conversation took place in the year 1940. I never spoke with him about concentration camps.
Q You say the reports of Dr. Globocnik, document 4024 PS, and you said that the reports were completely unknown to you. But did you give out similar decrees which were in any way similar? Did you give directions like that to officers subordinate to you or did you receive such directions from agencies superior to you? applying to actions like it. At no time in my official capacity was I given an order like that. These peculiar "business deals are new to me, and I should like to report that my fellow workers, my comrades, and I, with horror, heard about the things we have been informed of now.
Q You just mentioned the officers. Did you speak in your capacity as a leader of the General SS Allgemeine SS, and Police President and Higher SS Police, leader, as well?
A Yes. I am including all of my offices which I have never had in , y entire life.
Q When you looked at the document of Mr. Globocnik, from you general knowledge, can you tell us whether Globocnik was a leader of the General SS and whether in that capacity he might have done these things?
A Globocnik was an SS leader from Austria. As I have already said I only saw him once in my life and talked with him once. I can see from this document that he is the head of the Higher SS and Police Leader in Kuestenland. That seems to be near the Adriatic Coast Region. He was Higher SS and Police Leader in the occupied country, I have already stated that the activity of the Higher SS and Police Leader in the occupied countries differed completely from the activity of the higher SS and Police Leader in the Reich. As far as I am informed the Higher SS and Police Leader in the occupied territory acted according to the situation at hand and received, the orders from Himmler.
5 Aug M LJG 10-1 the order, that may be something that is contained in the Document. With these economic measures, we in Germany were not charged. have anything to do with economic measures? continued at Dachau and here before the High Tribunal and before the Commission, you stated according to your best convictions in answering "no." You gave the following reason by saying that Rascher was under arrest. Look at the Document submitted-3536 PS once mere. The name Rascher does not appear in conversation with Sievers any longer.
THE PRESIDENT: Can't we sec that Document for ourselves? You are referring to a Document and we can read the Document as well as he can.
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes. I am just calling the witness' attention to the decisive point in the Document, but I will turn to the next question, your Honor. BY DR. PELCKMANN: were not being continued at Dachau, as you said, after Rascher was under arrest?
AAt this moment I see the copy for the first time. I did not knew at the time that beside Rascher, this Professor Schilling was active as well. I learned about these proceedings in Dachau following my arrest. This is the point I know about, namely the research station of Rascher and the second man after Rascher, but I don't know his name. It is possible that it is the man mentioned in the Document, Dr. Ploetner. That is quite possible. I don't know the name of this man. We were quite horrified when we learned of the reports on the activities.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a waste of our time, an absolute waste of time.
5 Aug M LJG 10-2 The witness said there were no further experiments and the way the Document is put to him, he says he assumes. What is the use of examining him about this?
DR. PELCKMANN: Witness, was there further reason for your assumption that the experiments were not being continued? Was it a fact that as a result of your first protest to Himmler, he was informed of your attitude? Tell the Tribunal further if on the basis of your conversation with Himmler he had to be careful in the continuing of those experiments?
THE WITNESS: When I reported to Himmler, he was quite upset and he told me that these matters did not concern me and that Rascher had merit and that I did not know anything about these things. I said it was quite impossible and Himmler said he would turn the case over to the Higher SS Court. Of course, I could not understand that Himmler know about the details. BY DR. PELCKMANN: you just new made, in conclusion, I should like to ask you, arc you of the conviction today that the membership of the General SS, the mass membership of the SS, was deceived by the higher leadership?
A Yes. I found out after I talked with my comrades and I talked with many comrades during the period of my arrest, I can state that the mass of these men are bitterly disappointed with these things that they experienced, things which they just now learned. They cannot quite comprehend how Himmler could have brought them together with things of such a nature. I am not only speaking for myself, but all the other men of the SS and these men of the SS dept their loyalty to the last hour for the honor of the Fatherland. As loyalty which was not given to us. We followed the leadership and followed it in good faith and we were fired with pure idealism. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What did you mean by the statement that the Allgemeine 5 Aug M LJG 10-3 SS had ceased to exist in the last part of the war?
there was no General SS loft in the country. There were 10,000 men in the SS in round figures at the end of the year 1944 and when the Volkssturm was called up, that was the first time we know how many men were still at our disposal. There were only 1200 men left, but they were not able to do service any longer in cur department. For practical purposes this unit was dissolved the Standard had also been dissolved. All of that had been dissolved and there was nothing left. When an honor guard was required for the SS Memorial service, it was not even possible to furnish an honor guard as the men were all in service. For all practical purposes, it was dissolved. We had to call in women, old people and others who were not members of the SS at all. of the concentration camps in Germany?
A No, I did not wish to state that. There were members of the SS who received orders from the General SS, they were celled up orderly and they were not kept in the SS any longer. I should say since 1934, they were active and had their own lives. How many people like that there were all together, that is in proportion to the entire membership of the SS, I do not have the exact picture as to how many. I don't think I am going too far to say that at Dachau perhaps there were fifty or sixty men on the staff of the Kommandantur.
Q. Are you saying there were 50 or 60 men at Dachau who ceased to be members of the SS?
A No, I don't really state that. They were our uniform and they belonged to the Kommandantur corps of the concentration camp, but in practice they had nothing in common with us any longer for we hardly had any more contacts with them.
Q Had you no responsibility for them?
Q Well, another question. Had the Waffen SS any contact with or any relation to the Allgemeine SS except through the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler?
A Only at the very first, at its origin. The Verfuegungstruppe was the organization from which the Waffen SS originated. Men of the General SS who wanted to become soldiers volunteered. This is a topic on which a general of the Waffen SS will testify as he is more informed on this point than I am. Contacts were only a friendship level. We called on each other. Himmler, had no connection with the General SS? when it came to opinions they had the same political principles which applied to both and they were held by both but, as I have already said, I am not in a position to testify as I never served in the Waffen SS myself but only received the rank of a Waffen SS general at the time the prisoner of war system was turned over to us. Unit and they were and characterized by external insignia as well. They had insignia and instead of the two bolts of lighting or posed by ten Water SS they in turn carried a death head and they were another undid of troops if I may characterized them as such, and during the war they were refined for they were younger people. They were replaced by men -SS used in concentration camps? You are telling me about the *otenkopf.
A During the period on war chose who were wounded, *---* these he were not fit for service at the front were probably transferred to the guard units and I assume those who came from hospitals. If you wish to call that a unit or organization then I believe you might say that, yes. Munich and South Bavarian district, how long had he been in office? Your Honor, assumed office in the summer of 1942 and he remained until the end.
Q And you were in close contact with him, I suppose? My official relationship, if I may put it that way, as I have already testified, and as Geisler was the Reich Commissioner of Defense and also Bavarian Minister of the Interior, as such he was my superior.
Q Was there any other superior police officer over you?
A I did not understand the last part of the question. There seems to have been a technical disturbance.
Q Was there any police officer in Munich over you?
Q What police had you under you? after 1942 and I was replaced by another General at that time. Up until 1942 I had command of the Security Police under me. There was a commander of the Schutzpolizei in every large city and this was given to the police president for the regulation of police traffic and other matters applying to the streets and in addition to that, there was a criminal police office, dealing with the political police, that is the secret state police and the security police. But that was something with which the police president had nothing to do with. Those were offices which worked independently.
Q. Was the Gestapo under you ?
A. No.
Q. The SD ?
A. No.
Q. well, then what police were under you ?
A. As police president -
Q. There is no answer coming through.
A. As police president I had charge of the city of Munich.
Q. Will you tell me what police there were under you ?
A. Which police were subordination me? I have already stated as police president and only as police president I had command of the Schutzpolizei with about fourteen hundred officials and I could use them just as they were needed in the city. In addition, I had the supervision of the criminal police, I could give directions to hem in my capacity as police president but not in my capacity as higher police leader. My other colleagues who were not police presidents, who were not higher officials, they could only carry on in their own sections and make suggestions.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all. The witness can retire.
DR. Pelckmann Is it agreeable now, Mr. President, for me not to call the witness until two o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: No, call the -witness.
DR. Pelckmann: I should like to call the witness Brill.
ROBERT BRILL, called as a witness, testified as follows : BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Will you state your full name, please ?
A. Robert Brill.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure turth and will withhold and add nothing ?
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
BY DR. Pelckmann
Q. Witness, what activity did you carry through which put you in a position to testify here about the affairs of the SS ?
A. For twelve years I was with the Waffen SS. In 1933 I started my service as a private in the Leibstandarte. I was promoted to an officer and then for four years with interruptions, due to my service at the front, I was in the Ergaenzungs Amt of the Waffen SS. At the end of the war I was or dinance officer in a SS Panzer Division.
Q. What does that mean, "Ergaenzungs Amt" of the Waffen SS ?
A. The Ergaenzungs Amt of the Waffen SS concerned itself with the investigation and recruiting of recruits to the Waffen SS as well as with the supervision of the members who were serving in the Waffen SS. I was in the Ergaenzungs Ant and head of a main department and as such, I dealt with the recruitment end its supervision. However, I had sufficient insight into other departments of the Waffen SS so that I can testify here before this Court.
Q. Is it correct to say that you could watch the development as far as figures are concerned in the Waffen SS ?
A. Yes.
Q. And now tell the Tribunal as exactly as possible, and pay special atte tion to the question, were they volunteers or called into the Waffen SS ?
A. The Waffen SS originated from the SS Verfuegungstruppe. Several hundr men made up the Leibstandarte. In 1933 it had been set up as a guard and representative troop for the Reichschancellory. Through the expansion of this representative and supervisory task, the Verfuegungstruppe in the years 1934 until 1939 was made up of volunteers from all the levels of the German population. At the beginning of the war the Verfuegungstruppe had about 18,000 members. Service in the Verfuegungstruppe was regular military service and, in addition to that on the first of September, 1939 -- the Death Head Unit was also in existence and had about eight thousand men -- these two units from the fall of 1939 until the spring of 1940 had added about another 36,000 men.
These men, on the basis of emergency measures were called to service as an additional force for the police. These 36,000 men, together with the Verfuegungstruppe and the Death Head Unit, made up the Waffen SS. spring of 1940 which appeared in a regular service circular in the fall of 1940 dealt with the recruiting and the disposition for regular army service of the Waffen SS. Beginning in 1940 we had 100,000 men in the Waffen SS. There were 36,000 who had been drafted and 64,000 volunteers.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess now.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Transcript for 5 August-Morning should have the following correction made on pages 15094 and 15095:- The name "Dr. Gawlik" appearing in the English record in all instances is incorrectly stated and should appear as Dr. Pelckmann.
The following corrections should be made to the page numbers of the Transcript of 5 August-Afternoon, from page 15103 as follows:
" 15106 ......... 15104 " 15105 ......... 15105 " 15104 ......... 15106 " 15106 ......... 15107 (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 5 August, 1946.)
BY DR. PELCKMANN: had 100,000 men, 54,000 volunteers and 36,000 draftees. Will you continue about the development?
A In the same year, 1940, we had 50,000 more recruits for the Waffen-SS; 2,000 to 3,000 were drafted and the others were volunteers. In 1941 we deceived 70,000 men, 3,000 drafted, the rest volunteers. In 1942 ... THE PRESIDENT: Wouldn't it be quicker and just as accurate to take all these figures as they have been given before the Commission? Presumably they are all in writing in the evidence given before the Commission. It is not necessary to repeat a series of figures of this sort for us. You could pass on to something which would be less statistical.
DR. PELCKMANN: Very well. the basis of your testimony one could say that 40 to 50 percent of those called to the Waffen-SS were drafted forcibly. In your opinion was this relationship true at the end of the war?
A No, by no means. At the end of the war we had about 550,000 men in the Waffen-SS. Up to October 1944, 320,000 men, including dead, missing, and seriously wounded, were known to be casualties. It was considered that the majority of the dead were volunteers. I know this from reports on casualties. This indicates the fact that at the end of the war there were more draftees in the Waffen-SS than volunteers. knowledge.
A For four years I worked on this material. I prepared statistics and made reports so that I have retained these figures in mind very accurately. In my office in Berlin I handled card indexes, etc. They were there when I left in January 1945.