"After we had inspected the various valuables in the vaults of the Reichsbank, we went upstairs to a room in order to have dinner with Reichsbank President Funk; this had been arranged for the time following the inspection. Besides Funk and Puhl the gentlemen of my staff were present; we were about 10 to 12 persons. I sat beside Dunk and we talked among other things about the valuables, which I had seen in his vaults. On this occasion it was clearly stated that a part of the valuables which we had seen came from concentration camps.
Q Now, is the material contained in that affidavit news to you, witness?
Q You had no knowledge of it at all? Jewish people all over Europe? an SS member, had this task. I never saw Mr. Eichmann; I never had anything to do with him. I know the facts from this report in this trial. murder, was to secure loot for the SS and for kindred Nazi organizations?
A No, I did not know that. I know quite well that I was always in this country and never had anything to do with these matters. G-L-O-B-O-C-N-I-K?
A Yes; I met Globocnik once at a Fuehrer meeting. I talked to him once
Q He was a Higher SS and Police Chief like yourself, was he not?
A No, I do not believe so. At that time he was Oberfuehrer and Brigadefuehrer. As such he could not be Higher SS and Police Chief. And it was not in Germany. I know that.
Q We may he at cross purposes. I am speaking of the year 1943. In that year Globocnik was Higher SS and Police Chief in the operational zone of the Adriatic coast, was he not?
A That may be; I do not know. It was possible, but not in the Reich.
that you had no power of command over the SS and no authority over the police. That seems to have been a summary of your functions as Higher SS and Police Chief; is that right?
A Yes. I may remark that I expressly emphasized not only before this Tribunal but before the Commission as well that I cannot testify concerning the powers of the Higher SS and Police Chief outside of Germany.
Q I can assist you in that case. I want you to look at a report of your colleague, Globocnik, on the Action Reinhardt against the Jewish people of Poland.
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is Document 4024 PS, which will be Exhibit GB 550. It is a lengthy report. My Lord, with respect, it does merit the attention of the Tribunal. BY MR. ELWYN JONES: dated 5 January 1943. The letter starts:
"Reichsfuehrer, " I am taking the liberty of submitting to you in the enclosed a report on the economic development of the Action Reinhardt."
In the next paragraph:
"A proper winding up and my relief is necessary because I carried out this activity within the framework of the SS" -- I would like to underline those words, "within the framework of the SS" -- "and it must therefore be wound up in a proper manner with regard to the competent Reich authorities".
Then in a later paragraph it goes on:
"The total accounting is composed of two parts:
"1.) The economic part of the Action Reinhardt with the subdivisions, "a) Accounting and delivery of the assets seized and "b) Accounting of the assets attained by the work.
"2.) The Settlers' Economic Association, the conduct of those economy also rested on my work, and which is now being transferred to civilian hands."
Organization?
A (Ho response.)
Q Then there follows in Page 2 of the German text of this report:
"There is one additional factor to be added to the total accounting of 'Reinhardt' which is that the vouchers dealing with it must be destroyed as soon as possible." English -
THE PRESIDENT: Where is this part about the vouchers' being destroyed?
MR. ELWYN JONES: Paragraph 3, My Lord. Globocnik marked it "2", "The Settlers' Economic Association", in the next sentence to that. BY MR. ELWYN JONES: the Action Reinhardt, There are four copies only of that report. It was "gathered together in the SS Economic and Administrative Head Office." It says:
"The entire Action Reinhardt is divided into four spheres:
"A) The expulsion itself "B) The employment of labor "C) The exploitation of property "D) Seizure of hidden goods and landed property.
"A. The Deportation "This is settled and completed.
"In this case the prerequisite was to get hold of the people with the small forces available and to cause as little economic damage as possible to war production by methodically appropriate measures.
"On the whole this was achieved. Considerable damage occurred only in Warsaw, where, owing to ignorance of the position, the methods applied in the final action were entirely wrong."
Then I go to Paragraph B, "Employment of Manpower":
"The entire manpower was put into closed camps, to which essential war production was transferred.
"For this purpose the following conditions had to be created:
"1) Erection of all camps.
"2) Erection of work shops with all the working equipment, such as the installation of machinery, power supply, etc.
"3) The organization of provisions . . .
"4) Sanitation and Hygiene".
Then I want you particularly to notice 5, "Security measures":
"a) Achieved by adequate security precautions "b) By organization within the camp "c) By adequate guarding.
"For this purpose, the SS guards were developed, the overwhelming majority of whom carried out their duties satisfactorily led by the Germans.
"Their reliability was to be increased by mixing these guards with Reich German guards from concentration camps.
"d) The preconditions for a satisfactory security system were created by these comps being taken over by the concentration camp department of the WVHA".
"6) The proper administration and methodical treatment were made possible thanks to extensive training of the German leading personnel. It became apparent that the working capacity of the Jews in the camps was constant increasing." the name of "Osti", and the German Equipment Works:
"A total of 18 works was established; it was intended to add more. About 52,000 workers were available. These conditions of work make it possible to accept urgent orders both from the Armament Inspectorate and from Speer, the Reich Ministry, and thus to replace bombed out works. The demand from these offices was considerable. 'Osti' and the German Equipment Works were firms under my own supervision, whereas other concerns, such as the Heinkel Aircraft Works, were only looked after by me."
And then Paragraph C is on Page 5 of your German text: Exploitation of Property. This had been completed, as shown in Enclosure 2 which I shall come to in a moment.
Paragraph D: Seizure of Hidden Goods. "The seizure of hidden goods and exploitation of landed property is divided into: 1) Property such as machinery, raw materials etc., handed over by the 'Osti' to Aryans. To date the result is 6.3 million Reichsmarks; a further 7-8 million Reichsmarks are yet to be brought in.
Paragraph 2: "Seizure of Jewish assets at home and abroad in that the camp inmates were ordered to cede these claims to the 'Osti', which then carried out the recovery. The first attempt resulted in a cession of an amount of 11,000,000 Zloty, at least half of which appeared obtainable. However, since it was also possible to discover money that had been smuggled abroad, this action could have brought valuable foreign currency to the Reich.
Paragraph 3: Real estate was transferred to the Real Estate Administrative of the Government General for exploitation."
Then the measures taken were as follows: "1) On the 13th of August, 1943, the SS Training Camp of Trawniki was handed over by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
"2) On the 7th of September, 1943, in a conference with SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl the taking over of ten SS Working Camps in the Lublin District as subsidiaries of Lublin Concentration Camp was decided on and in addition the further handing over of further working camps in the Government General.
The head of the Lublin Concentration Camp was provided with suitable contracts. The conference was brought about by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger and SS Standartenfuehrer Scbellin."
Then Paragraph 3: "In pursuance thereof, a letter of the Commandant of the Lublin Concentration Camp, dated 14; September 1943, to the SS Working Camps announced that they had become subsidiaries of the Lublin Concentration Camp."
And then there follows the sentence: "The nixing of guards of foreign race with the German Concentration Camp guards from the Reich has also been initiated."
And I needn't trouble you with the rest of that document.
If you will turn to Page 8 of the German text you will see the "Report on the administrative development of the Action Reinhardt, "just two pages, in the English text, from the one that I have just read. The first paragraph described the assets of this Action Reinhardt.
Paragraph three of the text says: "The assets I collected were regularly delivered to the SS Economic and Administrative Head office against receipts, and they in turn passed on the assets to the Reichsbank, the Reich Ministry of Finance, textile concerns, etc." should read the next paragraph: "On the orders of the Reichsfuhrer SS, necessary articles could be removed for the maintenance of persons of the German race. The Reichsfuehrer SS forbade any appropriation for the purpose of the SS."
But you will see later how this was qualified: "What is remarkable about the accounting is that no hard and fast basis for the amount collected existed, as the collection of the assets was carried out under orders and only the dencency and honesty, as well as the surveillance of the SS men used for this purpose, could guarantee a complete delivery." because it is not without interest, you know.
and Zloty. "By far the greater portion was placed at the disposal of the SS Economist in the Government General and the amounts were credited to the Action Reinhardt in Reichsmarks by the W.V.H.A. Office by an accounting transaction and handed over to the Reichsbank."
Next page, Paragraph 2: "Foreign Currency in bank notes or coined gold was collected, sorted, and also handed over to the Reichsbank via the W.V.H.A."
Then page 10 of your German text: "Jewels, jewelry, watches and such like were sorted according to their value and delivered to the W.V.H.A. On orders from this office, watches of non-precious metals were handed over to the troops, spectacles were repaired and placed at the disposal of wounded persons, and utensils of no value were principally handed over to Wehrmacht authorities to cover urgent needs."
Paragraph 4: "Textiles, garments, underclothing, bed feathers and rags were collected and sorted according to their quality. The sorted articles had to be searched for hidden valuables and finally disinfected. More than 1,900 wagons were then placed at the disposal of the authorities named by the Reich Ministry of Economy by order of the W.V.H.A. Out of the so stocks not only foreign workers were clothed but a large portion was used for re-manufacture. The best garments were separated and by order of the Reichsfuehrer SS were used for supplying persons of the German race. Shoes were also sorted according to how far they could be used and then either given to persons of German race or to concentration camps for supplying inmates, or else taken to pieces and used for wooden shoes for supplying inmates."
Paragraph 5: "Individual valuables of a special kind, such as stamps, coins and such like, were sorted and delivered to the W.V.H.A."
Paragraph 8 on page 11 of your German text: "Valuable furniture and household utensils were reconditioned and mainly put at the disposal of settlers of German race. But furniture was also loaned to German and Wehrmacht authorities against an accommodation bill. Inferior goods were either destroyed or given to the population as a reward for good work at the harvest, etc."
The last paragraph: "The total value of the articles received is, according to the attached list, approximately 18,000,000 Reichsmarks. However, minimum values have been assured, so that the total value is most likely twice as much, quite apart from the value of the articles obtained which are in short supply, such as textiles, of which alone more than 1,900 wagons have been made available to German industry."
report: "Assets delivered from Action Reinhardt. The following assets from the Action 'Reinhardt' were delivered to the W.V.H.A., Berlin, for further transmission to the Reichsbank or to the Reich Ministry of Economics:
a) Reichsmark sums totalling 53,000,000 plus marks; b) currency in bank notes from all the principal countries in the world (half a million dollars being particularly to be noted) to a total value of 1,450,000 Reichsmarks; c) foreign currency in gold coins to a total value of 843,000 Reichsmarks; d) precious metals . . . to a total value of 5,353,000 Reichsmarks; e) other valuables such as jewelry, watches, spectacles etc. (the number of watches being particularly worthy of note -- about 16,000 in working order and about 51,000 requiring repair; they have been placed at the disposal of the troops) value 26,000,000 odd Reichsmarks; f) about 1,000 wagons of textiles to a total value of 13,000,000 odd Reichsmarks. Grand total, 100,047,000 Reichsmarks 1,000 wagins of textiles and about another 50% of the above mentioned assets -- which still have to be counted and valued -- are warehoused here.
It should be noted here that the estimated values were based on the officially established rates of exchange or prices, which, however, would be much higher on the open market, for instance in the sale of precious stones or precious metals abroad, as the flight to investments in articles whose value is not subject to much fluctuation is much greater there than with us. Besides these sales abroad bring us foreign currency. If these prices were taken as a basis of evaluation here, this was done in order to be able to give a picture of the assets delivered; in general this evaluation is not authoritative. The value of the acquisition lies principally in the fact that such large quantities of urgently needed raw materials can thereby be gained and that, on the basis of the assets obtained, foreign currency can be brought in with which new materials can in turn be bought by Reich authorities." to the 3rd of February, 1943. This is a sort of interim report: Cash in hand: 53,000,000; foreign currency in notes, 14,000,000 odd.
Then on Page 15 of the report: Currency in gold coins of all the different countries of the world, 843,000 odd Reichsmarks; 5,000,000 odd in precious metals.
Then I want you to look at Page 16 of this report, Witness: Other valuables: gold revolving pencils, 578 gentlemen's wrist watches, 13,445 gentlemen's pocket watches, and various ladies' jewelry; then the item 22,324 spectacles, and then next but one to that, 11,675 rings; then all the precious little possessions of these people, necklaces, a mother of pearl opera glass, each one itemized down to the very last sordid Reichsmark. possessions, making a total of 26,000,000 Reichsmarks.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, I ask for permission to interrupt the reading of this document for a moment. I object to the use of these documents in the examination of this witness. The witness is to be examined as to his credibility by the prosecution. The submission of these documents does not serve this purpose. In his testimony the witness has said that he had no authority over concentration carp administration. Nevertheless, a document is shown to him concerning penal regulations in a concentration camp. He said he did not know it. Continuing with the same system, the prosecution attempts to submit a document -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is perfectly well aware that -
DR. PELCKMANN: I did not understand, Mr. President. I bog your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: I say the Tribunal is perfectly well aware that this is a new document and they will take into account everything that this witness says.
DR. PELCKMANN: I beg your pardon, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT. I say, the Tribunal is perfectly well aware that this is a new document and that the Tribunal will take into consideration everything that the witness says and how far it appears that he has had anything to do with the document in considering the question of his credibility. Your objection is therefore rejected.
(A recess was taken.)
Aug-5-RT-7-1 Ahuna
MR. ELWYN JONES: Reading a number of extracts, the total possessions of Jewish Poles was 26 million. For textiles, there were 462 wagons of rags, 251 wagons of bed feathers, 371 wagons of clothing and underclothing, and then follows a total of over one hundred million Reichsmarks. Pages 13 and 19, you needn't trouble with that. Then, you turn to page 20 of the German text, and, My Lord, page 16a of the English text. You see a report on the exports of the slave labor from one of these camps which was set up for the benefit of the German Armament Industry. There is listed the various details of the work on various manufactured articles. "41 Aryan leading personnel ran, 5,445 Jewish workers who worked 1,115,000 working days in the first 10 months of the year 1943, with 31,000,000 Zlety in the bank and till." given to the slave camps. "The orders were covered by 83% work for the Wehrmacht and 17% for the civil field."
Next, turn to page 23 of the German text, page 19 of the English text. It is the provisional Balance sheet of the Action 'Reinhardt' till, Lublin, for 15 December 1943.. The following money and stocks were brought to the German Reich during the course of the Action 'Reinhardt', Lublin, during the period 1 April 1942 to 15 December 1943 inclusive." The Tribunal will see, from these figures, that in the meantime, additional loot had been obtained. "Cash in hand, 17,000,000 Reichmark notes and coins, 3,900,000; to the Reichsbank Berlin, Zlety notes and coins, 5,000,000; to the SS economist, Cracew, 50,000,000; loans for 38 industrial concerns, 8,218,000."
Then on the next page there's a table of the foreign currency that was lootedcurrency and then notes, and then there comes, once more, a list of the private possesions of the poles and Jews that were taken away wings, ladies' gold wristwatches, Gentlemens's gold pocket watches, ladies' fob watches with brilliants, ladies' watches of platinum and brill, ladies gold fob watches, 29, 391 spectacles, shaving equipment, pocket knives, alarm clocks, sunglasses, silver cigarette cases, clinical thermometers, all detailed to the last mark with a total of 43,662,000 reichsmarks. Then the industry increased by 9,000,000 more workers. There were 1,901 wagons of clothing, underclothing, bed feathers and rags to an average value of 26,000,000 reichsmarks. Total compilation of the total loot up to the end of December, 1913, 178,745,000 Reichsmarks.
text, an account from the personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS, and which is an account of the national resettlement carried out by uprooting of farms to make room for German citizens, and the clearing of some villages. Paragraph 3, "All Poles, including those who are being brought into the labor cycle in the Reich are to be given certificates confirming what property they have left behind. They will be informed that they will receive a suitable compensation some time in the form of goods or cash."
Page 29 of the German text, 24 of the English text, paragraph 6, "The communications from persons previously sent to the Reich reporting that they are getting on well there, and the people's realization of the fact that up to now nobody has been treated like the Jews, have already taken away the frightening atmosphere surrounding this system, of grouping."
Then I want you to turn to page 31 of the German text, and 26 . . the Tribunal will find it on page 26 of the English text.
"Measures for the further Transfer of Populations" That carries the heading of the Personal Staff, Reichsfuehrer SS. As many quarters express themselves against the transfer of populations on the grounds that it causes too much unrest among the foreigners, thus disturbing production, The following measures have been decided upon;
"1) Verbal propaganda will spread news about the discontinuation of these transfers.
"2) No authority will announce anything before the actual moment when the transfer of population is to be carried out. Planning will be done secretly.
"The time for immigration will be fixed for after the spring tilling of the fields, so that the foreigners will carry out the cultivation of the land, and the new settlers will already be able to make use of the harvest. This has the advantage that, under the above mentioned presuppositions, the foreigners will till their fields in all districts, while the German settlers will not run the danger, in view of the shortness of the time of possibly being hindered in their spring work.
"The transfer of Poles should be carried out in such a manner that the goads element are put, as much as possible voluntarily, in districts cleared by the Security Police, and the transfer is entitled 'The Establishment of security in the Partisan districts'. The bad interments will be taken away gradually where they are not employed as auxiliary workers.
"The announcement of the time of immigration will be made only on the day of the transfer of population.
"All villages will be occupied in advance by the 'Landwacht' Country Guard) in all parts of the organization formed by settlers, who, having received previous training, are to save the use of our own SS forces."
The noon the next page there follows a memorandum by Blobochnik, setting out the details of the technique of res*-*lement and I turn to the next document, page 34 of the German text, 29 of the English text. That is Globochnik's final letter forwarding this report and in dealing with the Reinhardt action. It is dated the 4th of November 1943, when, as the Tribunal sees, Globochnik was the Higher SS and Police Chief in the Operational Zone of the Adriatic Coastal Area. It is addressed to Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer: I concluded Operation Reinhardt, which I have been directing on the government-general, on the 19th of October 1943 and have dissolved all camps."
The last paragraph but throe: "During a visit, you, Reichsfuehrer, held out to me the prospect that a few Iron Crosses might be awarded for the special performances of this hard task after the work had been concluded. Please advise me, Reichsfuchrer, whether I may submit suggestions on this connection.
"I beg to paint out that such an award to the forces of the local SS and Police Chief was authorized for the work in Warsaw, which formed only a comparatively small part of the total work."
In the final document, Himmler sends a letter to Globochnik, saying: "I express to you my thanks and my acknowledgment for the great and unique services which you have performed to the entire German people by carrying out the action Reinhardt." BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Witness, do you still say that you had no knowledge of the use of the SS for the collection of loot, for the use of resettlement, for the driving of people from their homes and for the enslavement of Poles and Jews?
A. No, I had no knowledge of these things.
Q. When did you first discover that Jewish and other people were being exterminated in concentration camps?
A. I have already testified to that a little while ago, that there destructive actions were known to me after I was arrested.
Q. Your connection with the Rascher case in the Spring of 1944 must have given you a very clear idea that extermination was going on.
I repeat my question: Did not your contact with the Rascher case in the Spring of 1944 warn you clearly that extermination and killings were going on in concentration camps?
A. I can refer only to my personal experience and observation and that for the first time the case of Rascher, this case proved to me for the first time that something like that had occurred and I should like to repeat again that in the areas of the Reich, in the internal area of Germany, it was quite impossible to learn of things as they may be seen from the documents before me.
Q. You arrested Rascher on the charge of fraud, didn't you?
A. Rascher, as I have already testified on Saturday, was being suspected first of all ---
Q. Just a moment. Are you going to answer my question directly? Did you arrest Rascher on a charge of fraud?
A. I can concede only that he had already been interned and after, we learned the scope of his crime we kept him in custody until the end. I was a coincidence that the other crimes, the two other crimes of which he had been suspected -- he had been arrested on other charges already and then when these matters came up, of course, he was naturally kept in arrest.
Q. You knew that Rascher had been carrying out experiments on humans and in the course of those experiments, that he had been killing them, didn't you?
A. That, I learned from my conversation with the camp commandant, a physician.
Q. Was Rascher ever charged with murder?
A. I have already testified to that on Saturday already -- unfortunately he was not accused by Himmler. Himmler was the only one who could accuse him for Himmler was the competent judge in that connection -- that is, the accused before a court.
Q. Although you knew in the Spring of 1944 that Himmler's organization was not only criminal but murderers, you continued to servo it for another year?
A. First, despite these reasons, as has been stated by me, there was no possibility of my leaving office and going against the wishes of my superiors.
Q. When you gave the evidence before the Commission on this Rascher matter, do you remember saying --- It is recorded on page 2216 of the transcript for the 6th of July 1946 -- that when you discovered that Rascher was the responsible person for the experiments on living human beings, you saw to it that this crime was not carried out any more? Did you say that?
A. Yes, indeed -- through the act that this man was not dismissed from arrest which otherwise probably would have taken place, -- the other cases had been cleared. There was no more suspicion resting on him and otherwise he would have been dismissed but we did retain him in arrest, for the knowledge of this new crime was added on to the other suspicions.
Q. Did you take any steps to see to it that Rascher was not succeeded by another SS murderer?
A. I do not quite follow you. I do not know the meaning of the sense of the question.
Q. I will explain myself. The Rascher experiments on human beings were contained in Dachau after Rascher was put into disgrace for fraud, was he not?
A. No; the physician who was the deputy and with whom I talked, as was brought to me by the camp commandant, did not carry out any experiments like that. He was the man who had made the report, who reported on those things that Rascher had done and he had told me that he refused to work further.
Q. Are you telling the Tribunal that the experiments and biological research on human beings in Dachau stopped after the dismissal of Rascher?
A. Yes, indeed. I am firmly convinced of that fact. Q. I want you to look at the Journal of the Ahnenerbe, the Ancestral Research Organization for 1944, which was kept by Sievers, the Reich Manager of that organization. It is Exhibit 3546-PS, which will be GB-51. I have made certain extracts from the relevant passages for the convenience of the Tribunal. Now, if you confine your attention to the extracts, you can check them against the original if you wish to do so. You will see that Rascher's name appears in January, the conferences with him on the 28th of January, on the 29 of January, and then over in the next page in March and then in April there is a conference at Station Rascher.
Now, when exactly was it that you had Rascher arrested; what month was it? What month was it that you had Rascher arrested?
A. In which month I cannot tell you. Saturday I testified that it was in the spring of 1944 but I can't give you the exact date; however, I do know from reliable sources that in the beginning of May, after this case was concluded, I looked up Himmler and that case was to have been concluded; thereafter he was under arrest.
Q. In looking at the extract far May, you will see the conferences of the Reichsarzt SS, in which Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Plotner took part. Did you now know that Dr. Plotner took over from Rascher in Dachau?
A. I don't know the name; I don't know the names of the various physicians.
Q. In the entry for the 27th of June, the extract of 31st of May -- first, you see that Sievers had a conference with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Plotner-first of all, with regard to Professor Schilling, I take it that you know who Professor Schilling is, don't you. Do you know Professor Schilling?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. He has recently been condemned to death for his experiments in Dachau, hasn't he?
A. I read that in the papers.
Q. In May, you see, he was having a conference with Dr. Plotner; the 27th of June, there is a conference with regard to the creation of the scientific research station in the concentration camp. The 25th of July, conference with SS Staff. Mauer, in Oranienburg about the use of inmates for scientific purposes; and then on the same page, the 26th of July, Jauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Fischer goes on a journey fastest through all concentration camps in order to fix finally the persons; and then the 21st of October, the proceeding of research of SS Stubaf. Pros. Dr. Hirt, and then the final entry for the 23rd of October 1944, SS Strumbannfuehrer Dr. Poppendieck; taking over of biological research by SS Staff. Dr. Plotner in Dachau. Are you still saying to the Tribunal that all experiments on human beings in Dachau stopped after Rascher went from there?
did not go on any more after the dismissal of Rascher. You told that to the Commission, didn't you, and is it not true?
MR. JONES : If your Lordship please, I am not attemp fore the Commission.
The Tribunal is in possession of all the THE PRESIDENT : Doctor Pelckmann, do you want to re-examine?
BY DR. PRESIDENT Penal Codes that applied to the Camp Dachau.
I should like to bringing in and the dismissing of inmates at this camp?
or the dismissal of inmates from concentration camps. At all connected with this document?
The photostatic copy?
Q. On my copy I can see that a letter was written by a Mr. Winterberger, dated 29 May 1933, and that it was added to the document.
On that date, the 29th of May 1933, where were you? SS, and a personal deputy of Himmler. Were you the personal representative of Himmler? case. I should like to repeat once more. The Higher SS and Police leaders were the representatives of the Reichsfuchrers. Regarding the authority of then and the issuance of orders, the head of the Police and the chief of Order Police and Security Police, were the representatives of the Reichsfuchrer SS. The Higher SS and Police Leader according to the wording of the decree, had neither the right, not the duty, to carry out these instructions, and they were merely permitted, to make suggestions. well?
A No. The concentration camps were of Amtsgru*ppe D. The administration belonged to that group alone. They had their own Official channel. It was only possible to enter the camp with the permission of these agencies. correction 4024, did you ever discuss with Pohl, the problem of the of the concentration camps? at this office once, my conversation dealt purely with the acquisition of some property in Munich for the General SS, (Allgemeine SS) which was subordinate to me. We discussed the buying of this property. I believe this conversation took place in the year 1940. I never spoke with him about concentration camps.
Q You say the reports of Dr. Globocnik, document 4024 PS, and you said that the reports were completely unknown to you. But did you give out similar decrees which were in any way similar? Did you give directions like that to officers subordinate to you or did you receive such directions from agencies superior to you? applying to actions like it. At no time in my official capacity was I given an order like that. These peculiar "business deals are new to me, and I should like to report that my fellow workers, my comrades, and I, with horror, heard about the things we have been informed of now.
Q You just mentioned the officers. Did you speak in your capacity as a leader of the General SS Allgemeine SS, and Police President and Higher SS Police, leader, as well?
A Yes. I am including all of my offices which I have never had in , y entire life.
Q When you looked at the document of Mr. Globocnik, from you general knowledge, can you tell us whether Globocnik was a leader of the General SS and whether in that capacity he might have done these things?
A Globocnik was an SS leader from Austria. As I have already said I only saw him once in my life and talked with him once. I can see from this document that he is the head of the Higher SS and Police Leader in Kuestenland. That seems to be near the Adriatic Coast Region. He was Higher SS and Police Leader in the occupied country, I have already stated that the activity of the Higher SS and Police Leader in the occupied countries differed completely from the activity of the higher SS and Police Leader in the Reich. As far as I am informed the Higher SS and Police Leader in the occupied territory acted according to the situation at hand and received, the orders from Himmler.
5 Aug M LJG 10-1 the order, that may be something that is contained in the Document. With these economic measures, we in Germany were not charged. have anything to do with economic measures? continued at Dachau and here before the High Tribunal and before the Commission, you stated according to your best convictions in answering "no." You gave the following reason by saying that Rascher was under arrest. Look at the Document submitted-3536 PS once mere. The name Rascher does not appear in conversation with Sievers any longer.
THE PRESIDENT: Can't we sec that Document for ourselves? You are referring to a Document and we can read the Document as well as he can.
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes. I am just calling the witness' attention to the decisive point in the Document, but I will turn to the next question, your Honor. BY DR. PELCKMANN: were not being continued at Dachau, as you said, after Rascher was under arrest?
AAt this moment I see the copy for the first time. I did not knew at the time that beside Rascher, this Professor Schilling was active as well. I learned about these proceedings in Dachau following my arrest. This is the point I know about, namely the research station of Rascher and the second man after Rascher, but I don't know his name. It is possible that it is the man mentioned in the Document, Dr. Ploetner. That is quite possible. I don't know the name of this man. We were quite horrified when we learned of the reports on the activities.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a waste of our time, an absolute waste of time.