A Yes; that is, I received orders to go there, and the guests received permission. It was done in the following way: Either Himmler's staff or the RSHA, through the Inspectors of Concentration Camps, informed the competent camp commandant that guests were coming with me as their guide.
THE PRESIDENT: We do not think you need go into the details of the exact way in which the orders went. We do not want the details. BY DR. PELCKMANN: in a minute, did you ever have any official reason to visit the camp at Dachau ? to obtain information about conditions in the camp, perhaps because you had heard that mass killings were undertaken there, and that the people were starving to death ? everything was in order. The kitchen installation was shown, the hospitals, the operating rooms, showers, bods; and there was an opportunity to see numerous prisoners who, in my judgment, in peace times--that is, before 1938--were in an outstandingly good state of health. After 1939--that is, during the war--they gave the impression of being normally well fed.
There were thousands of prisoners. In Munich, for example, they were employed in public squares and streets, and were active in the removal of bomb debris. Everyone could see the prisoners. From my point of view, on the basis of my knowledge gained during my visit to the camp, I had no inclination to intervene, and I had no right to do so. see more or less than the visitors whom you accompanied ?
A I cannot judge. Tours were given through the whole camp. For example, in the fall of 1944, the commandants of prisoner of war camps were taken through. They were all experts. They knew everything about the camp; they could go around everywhere, according to their own judgment, and could look at everything.
Q. Did you ever hear anything about biological experiments of living persons in the concentration camp at Dachau, and, if so, when?
A. Yes. In the spring of 1944, in the course of criminal police investigations against an SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, Dr. Rascher, a medical doctor, and his wife were accused of "Kindunterschiebung" -- that is a word that is very difficult to translate. They were accused of illegal appropriation of other people's children. ties in connection with the research station at Dachau, where these biological experiments were carried on. This research station was directly subordinate to Himmler, without any intermediate authority.
Q. Did you know anything of these experiments beforemand?
A. No. It was only by coincidence that I found out about them.
Q. Please describe your investigation, so that the Court may see that you did not close your eyes to such things?
A. On the basis of the events of the proceedings which had already begun with the criminal police in Munich, I forced entry into the camp at Dachau. That was as early as 1944. Communications were so poor that I could not wait long for approval. With the help of a teletype message to the Inspectorate I learned that in the course of the police investigation that I could obtain permission from there and would go to the officials at Dachau. I did not know anything about the biological experiments at that time, but knew only of the first two-mentioned offenses. And when, in a talk with the camp commandant, I merely mentioned the name of Rascher, he, as well as the camp doctor, who had been called there, said that they considered Rascher a dangerous person who was carrying on the most abominable experiments on living human beings. He, Rascher, was vested with full powers from Himmler; and the camp commandant and his personnel were so intimidated that up to the time when I intervened, they did not dare oppose Rascher's activity in any way.
They sought in me the protection of a high SS Fuehrer. Rascher had been previously arrested by the criminal police for investigation; so when I dis covered the experiments, of course, I did not release him again.
I immediately made a personal report to Himmler in his field command post in Eigen near Salzburg, on my own decision. Himmler had reproached me by telephone for interfering at all.
He said I probably wanted to hold as sensational Trial. I made the situation clear to Himmler. He was very reserved toward me then. I said I did not understand anything about the matter. Rascher made very important experiments. He promised he would keep the documents which I had brought and would submit the Rascher case to the highest court; the Supreme SS and Police Court, it was a competent court. Himmler was Rascher's superior. Unfortunately, he was not subject to the jurisdiction of my court.
Q Was any trial of Rascher held?
Q What became of Rascher?
A Rascher remained under arrest. Without interruption for weeks and months, I kept applying to Himmler's office. I learned later that Himmler had not turned over the files at all.
Q Did you later learn Rascher was in a concentration camp?
A Yes. Rascher remained under arrest in the SS Barracks, Munich. Because of the approach of the American troops, the barracks were evacuated. He was then sent to Dachau. I have learned from the press that he must have been shot during the last few days. I cannot give any further information. Since the 20th of April, 1945, I was relieved of my post.
THE PRESIDENT: Before we adjourn, perhaps you can tell us how long you are going to be with this witness.
DR. PELCKMANN: I assume 45 minutes, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 5 August 1946, at 1000 hours.)
GOERING ET AL., DEFENDANTS, SITTING AT NURNBERG,
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Delckmann BY DR. DELCKMANN (Counsel for the SS):
Q. Witness, on Saturday you said that the witness Rascher, the accused Rascher, had been in a concentration camp, at the end. Did you approve of this settlement of the affair ?
A. No. I was of the opinion that these criminal deeds should be punished by court trial.
Q. If you did not approve of this settlement without a formal trial, what were you able to do against it ?
A. I may repeat that without interruption I applied to Himmler's office and I made inquiries of the Supreme SS and Police Court. I may point out that the binding regulations of the Kriegsstrafverfahrungs Ordnung-- the War Penal Cole-- provided that Himmler alone was competent. A complaint to Hitler through Himmler would have been possible for me, but in view of the existing situation, this was a practical impossibility. Neither an oral nor a written complaint or report from me would ever have reached Hitler nine years of my official activity in Munich, on only one single time, for about ten minutes, was I admitted to see Hitler because he wanted a report from me on the blocking off measures on the occasion of a big demonstration. That is the only time.
The only other thing I could have done was to resign. On the basis of the existing regulations, this would doubtless not have been accepted.
ance as a soldier, for I was a general of the Waffen SS and was bound by my oath of allegiance to the flag. Then I would have been courtmartialed and sent to a concentration camp.
Q. You just said that you were a General of the Waffen SS. So far you have told the Tribunal only that you were a member of the General SS. When and for what reason did you become a General of the Waffen SS, although up to then you had had nothing whatever to do with the Waffen SS ?
A. In the fall of 1944 Himmler became Commander in Chief of the Reserve Army. When he took over this office, the prisoner of war system also came under his jurisdiction. Himmler transferred to the Higher SS and Police Chiefs in the fall of 1944 the responsibility for safeguarding prisoner of war camps against mass escapes and attempts to liberate prisoners from the outside. For this purpose, the Higher SS and Police Chiefs were made Higher Commanders of the prisoners of war. International regulations regarding prisoners of war -- according to these regulations, police could not be used to guard prisoners of war. The Higher SS and Police Chiefs were taken over into the Waffen SS and appointed Generals of the Waffen SS.
THE PRESIDENT : If you could go a little bit faster, if you could speak a little bit faster, I think it would be convenient to the Tribunal. BY DR. PELCKMANN : September of 1944, as Commander-in-Chief of the reserve army, became chief of the Prisoner of War System and that the SS had now been in charge of prisoners of war; is that true? That is not true. Aside from the higher commander of the prisoners of war, no other SS member had anything to do with the prisoners of war. The prosecution further asserts that through the transfer of these prisoner of war tasks to Himmler or to the higher commander of prisoners of war in the fall of 1944 the inhumane treatment and destruction of allied prisoners of war by the SS was systematically promoted. Is that true? No, because as far as within the camps, the internal administration, the camp Commandant of the Wehrmacht continued responsible for that. The task assigned to us was as security, which began only outside the camp. Moreover, during the visit which I made to the individual camps during the six months of my competency, I always questioned the prisoners of war themselves and asked them whether they had any complaints. Not a single complaint of this type reached me from these men. As higher commander of prisoners of war from the fall of 1944 on, did you have anything to do with the labor commitment of prisoners of war? commitment staff of the Wehrmacht in cooperation with the provincial labor offices or with those parties leading labor.
The higher commander of prisoners of war did not deal with this.
jurisdiction over concentration camps, or your lack of jurisdiction over them, as you described it Saturday? camps and concentration camps as well, the higher SS and police chief was given the responsibility for safeguarding the camps from the outside for the same reasons as just mentioned, with a view to maintaining state security. Q For the delivery of prisoners to the camps did the RSHA remain responsible, and for the administration of camps, Amtsgruppe D was responsible? and for internal administration of the camp, the inspectorate of concentration camps, Amtsgruppe D of the economic and administrative main office. of how difficult it was for you, because of your limited powers, to prevent the death of thousands of concentration camp inmates
A Yes. In the beginning of March, 1945, the Gauleiter and Reichs Defense Kommissar Giesler in Munich ordered me to come to him, and demanded that I should influence the Kommandant of Dachau to the effect that when the American troops approached the prisoners - there were 25,000 people there at the time - were to be shot. I refused this demand, with indignation, and I pointed out that I could not give any orders to the Kommandant, whereup* Giesler said to me that he, as Reichs Defense Kommissar, would see to it that the camp would be bombed by our own forces. I told him that I considered it impossible that any German air firce commander would be willing to do this. Then Giesler said he would see to it that something would be put into the soup of the prisoners. That is, he threatened to poison them. From my own initiative I sent an inquiry to the inspector of the concentration camp by teletyee and asked for a decision from Himmler as to what was to be done with the prisoners in case the American troops approached.
Shortly thereafter the news came that the camps were to be surrendered to the enemy. I showed that to Giesler. He was quite indignant because I had frustrated his plans and had put it on a different point of view. Shortly thereafter we had another clash regarding the defense of the city of Munich., which was completely hopeless. The Wehrkreis Commander was thrown out eight days before me, and on the 20th of April I was also dismisses and all my offices were taken away from me, and I was without power.
THE PRESIDENT : The man you are speaking of, the Gauleiter, was Gauleiter of what district? What Gau?
THE WITNESS : Munich and Upper Bavaria. He was also Bavarian Prime Minister and Bavarian Minister of the interior and Reichs Defense Kommissar. BY DR. PELCKMANN : teristics of Gauleiter Giseler. According to the structure of internal administration at the time, did he formally have the right to the action which he intended to carry out?
A Yes. The Reichs Defense Kommissar, in all questions of the defense of the country, could put his will through on the basis of the existing regulations for the Reich Defense Kommissar. In acition, as I have already said, the man was Bavarian Prime Minister, and as such he had the powers in the province. was indicated that in the course of the war the SS -- it was given in this form, that the SS represented the government in Germany, will you please describe in whose hands, according to you. opinion, according to your experience at the time in such a high position, in whose hands the state power was, from 1933 to 1945.
A In any case, not in the hands of the SS. During the war, important functions of the Reich power were in the hands of the Reich Defense Kommissars, who could take port in all things except the Reich Special Administration.
I may refer to the Reich legal regulations of the 16th of November, I believe, 1942. Moreover, through the influence of Martin Bormann, things in the Reich were directed more or less by the Gauleiter and the Reich Defense Kommissars. The SS, in any case, was no different and decisive factor. The general SS, as I testified on Saturday, no longer existed in the country, and the troops of the Waffen SS were at the front.
Q One more question, witness. When and in what way did you learn that members of the Jewish population in your district were deported to the East? a report of the Criminal Police of Munich from the morning report that in the preceding night a number of suicides had taken place in Munich. That attracted my attention as being something quite unusual. I tried to clear up the matter by asking the head of the criminal Police why there had been the suicides. I believe there were six or eight in one night. He referred no to the Gestapo. Through the head of the state police I learned that the removal of a few hundred - I believe - Jewish inhabitants of Munich or the district - I don't know whether they were all from Munich - was ordered. In answer to my question as to where they ware to be sent, I was told that was a re-settlement for the purpose of labor commitment in the East, and it was said credibly that the trains had already been arranged for With the Reichsbahn Directorate and that the choice of persons, on instructions from the RSHA to the Gestapo, had been reached in agreement with the Israelitic community. The persons in questions were in the possession of certain amounts of money, of food cards, and of a certain amount of baggage.
There were cars with fortification tools, that is, spades and so forth, in the train. That is what I learned at the time. Should you not have been informed previously in one of your official capacities? how it actually happened. obligation of the Gestapo office to inform you? security Police. to say that you as Fuehrer of the general SS, committed no crimes as the Prosecution assorts, I have given some examples, and that the members of the general SS did not commit such crimes, so that in your opinion one cannot say that the general SS was a criminal organization. But I must now submit to you that proof of criminal deeds has been given. I remind you of the thousands of deaths in the concentration camps, of thousands of Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos, of thousands of Jews shot in the East by Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos, and I remind you of the gas chambers at Auschwitz. Now I ask you, what did you know of these things up to 1945?
A. I knew nothing. During the whole war, without interruption, I was in Munich, without being in the occupied territory. Today I knew that it was impossible for a person who was not initiated to penetrate into the secret parts of the concentration camp. There were indications here and there. In my official capacity I saw foreign papers which had be confiscated, but they contained things which were not true; I knew from my experience. As a result I considered reports on such atrocities as evidence of enemy propaganda. I did not listen to enemy radio broadcasts. As the Tribunal known, it was forbidden for every German. Since we had to punish people who broke this law, I did not think I should do it myself. As for the mass of the men of the General SS. they neither had a part in these atrocities nor did they know about them according to my firm conviction. I am convinced that on the basis of the good relation of confidence between my men and me, they would certainly have asked questions of me when they came to visit me on their leaves. They would have asked me certainly. They would have said, "Obergruppen Fuehrer, do you know about these things ? Is it true ? " No one of the men asked me anything like that.
Q. On the basis of your knowledge of the organization and the fact that you have learned after the beginning of the trial or after the collapse, do you maintain that the mass of members of the General SS for whom you are testifying here, did not have a part in these crimes ?
A. Yes.
Q. At the wish of the Court I have reduced the number of witnesses to the absolute minimum of five witnesses, I will only bring such witnesses as those who can give the Court answers on organizational questions and basic questions. Therefore, in spite of your high rank, I must ask you what the mass of these many thousands of unknown members of the SS, according to your conviction, knew ? I will submit affidavits, documents and other proof later.
A. In spite of my position and in spite of my survey, I knew nothing. I can only repeat; how were the men to know about it who were out at the front or the few who remained at home. The horrible things that happened after the catastrophe, the collpase -- those things were learned in the concentration camp.
Hundreds of thousands of people were on the move. Thousands of people were brought from the border territory into the few camps which were still available in southern Germany, in Dachau, There was an uninterrupted stream of people coming in throughout the winter. There was a typhus epidemic which claimed may victims. I learned that, also, only by accident through the Gauleiter and Reich Defense Commissioner. The workers for clearing away debris after air raids could not be supplied because of the typhus epidemic. tims. Moreover, in the last few weeks, railroad lines were destroyed. The food supply was blocked. There was hunger to a considerable extent. The Commandant told me it was impossible to stop this epidemic. There was no more medicine. The terrible pictures, about which we all know, which have been shown here. In any case, the mass of the men of the General SS and the other members of the Waffen SS could not have known about them since no one could see into the camp. The General SS for which I am peaking here could not have prevented it.
DR. PELCKMANN: For the point which the witness mentioned, the secret fear in the concentration camps and the difficulty of penetrating into them I refer particularly to the contents of the affidavits SS 64 to 67 and 69, affidavits of SS judges who concerned themselves with these things.
I have no more questions, Mr. President. Thank you. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Witness, you denied on Saturday, that the SS was the heart of Nazism. Would you agree with me that it was the fist ?
A. I didn't understand exactly. I beg your pardon.
Q. I will put the question to you again. You denied on Saturday that the SS was the heart of Nazism, Would, you agree with the that it was the fist ?
A. I did not understand, the ward before "SS"?
Q. I will put the question to you again. I am surprised that you cannot understand the question. I will try again. You denied on Saturday that the SS was the heart of Nazism. Would you agree with me that it was the fist ? This the fist, (Indicating).
A. Oh, the fist. I assume that the Prosecutor means to say that with this fist we waged an attack. I can only point out that we, as SchutzStaffel had to protect leading personalities.
Q. What I meant by the fist was that the SS supplied the brute force of Nazism. Is that not so ?
A. I can only refer to what I described, that before 1933 we were a very small group of men, who up to 1933 amounted to about 25,000 to 35,000 men throughout Germany. Germany had about 65 million people in 1933, but it was in no proportion to the size of the Party as such.
Q. You are not answering my question, you know. You are wandering off into details that have no relevance to my question at all. I suggest to you that the killings by the SS on the 30th of Junes 1934 were a characteristic use of the SS as the fist of Nazism.
A. The events of the 30th of June 1934 were, according to my firm conviction and to that of my comrades, the result of a state of emergency and the orders which were given were carried out on the basis of the orders of the head of the state.
Q. You denied on Saturday that the SS had taken any part in the shootings of the 30th of Junes 1934. Are you seriously saying to the Tribunal that that is your evidence on that matter ?
A. I can only say that in my field, in my district, the General SS was in the barracks of the Wehrmacht and the police, not on the street, and they did not shoot.
Q. So you are saying that it was the Wehrmacht and the police that did the shooting that it was the forces of General Keitel and the others who were doing the shootings, are you ?
A. I did not mention those two names, nor did I say that the Whermacht had carried out the shootings. In answer to the question of the defense counsel, I told why I believed that there was a state of emergency. I said that I received instructions to establish contact with the commander, of the Wehrkreis, but that does not mean that the Wehrmacht was to supply executions details or anything like that, but only to have the possibility with the approval of the Wherkreis commander, to receive billets in barracks.
Q. You were a frequent visitor to Dachau, weren't you ?
A. Yes.
Q. And you saw nothing there except good shower baths, good food, satisfactory sanitation; that was a rest camp ? That was your evidence on Saturday about Dachau, wasn't it ?
A. I did not use the word "rest camp". I was a soldier from 1940 on and I had an impression of how it looks in troop billets and in a camp. I can only repeat that the sanitary installations which I saw were in excellent order, that during peacetime the prisoners had a very good state of nutrition and, as I saw during the war, they received average food like every other German. I can only say here on oath that which I myself saw with my own eyes.
Q. Did you ever ask to see the punishment cells, the completely dark cells where people were kept for three months on bread and water ?
A. I can recall that such a tour through the camp went through a cell prison, that was a stone building.
Q. If you answer my questions, we shall get on faster.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see the completely dark cells ?
A. I must say that one cannot see from outside a cell whether it is dark. Of course, every cell in every prison can be darkened. I did not see any, but for example, I know as Police President, that for some prisoners there are cells with small windows. I didn't see them, but I will admit that there could have been such cells.
Q. Did you ever ask to see the camp regulations for the punishment of prisoners who committed offenses in the camp ?
A. No, I did not demand that. The camp commandant made an exhaustive rep during the tours. I had no authority to intervene in his affairs before these guests.
Q. I just want you to look at what the regulations were as early as May 1933.
MR. ELWYN JONES: I put the document D-922 my Lord, which will be Exhibit GB 548.
Q. (continuing) Now, these are the regulations for the camp of Dachau which was on your doorstep, you know, and you see in Paragraph 3 the punishments that can be imposed on prisoners :
"Cells may be mild, medium, or severe. The maximum term of the first two kinds is eight weeks and three months for the severe arrest. The execution of this kind of punishment is generally in solitary confinement. In the case of medium cells, the person undergoing punishment receives a hard bed and only bread and water for food. Severe cells takes the same form as the medium, but in a completely dark cell." will see that there is given power of life and death to the camp commandant of Dachau and his staff.
And in Paragraph 18, which sets out the procedure to be followed in the event of charges of disobedience for which a death penalty are decided by a camp crout which consists of the camp commandant, one or two officers to be nominated by the camp commandant and an SS man belonging to the guard personnel.
"The Prosecution is also to be undertaken by an SS man belonging to the camp commandant's office who is to be nominated by the camp commandant. In the case of an even vote, the President of the Cam. Court has the casting vote. The President, is the current camp commandant." way to these SS men who were running the concentration camps, witness ?
A. This document has no heading and no signature. I may point that out. I have not seen these regulations.
Q. I would be obliged if you would answer my question. Did you know that the power of life and death was given to the SS officials who ran these concentration camps as far back as 1933 ?
A. I do not know that. I cannot imagine it. I assume that executions were ordered by higher authorities, but I cannot pass judgment on that.
Q. But you were the Higher SS and Police Chief for many years. You were Himmler's man, you know, weren't you ?
Chief, the Oberabschnittsfuehrer of the General SS, and the Police President had no influence whatever on internal arrangements in the camp and were not the superiors of the camp commandant. Himmler, his personal representative. Are you saying to the Tribunal that you did not know what the details of Himmler's murderers' organization were? A According to these regulations which were shown to me, which indicate jurisdiction over life and death, I can only say that it was unknown to me, and that Himmler never once spoke to me about these things; nor did I ever receive regulations for measure in a concentration camp.
Q Did you ever hear of Oswald Pohl? was he not, the WVHA? employing murder as a means to establish loot on a colossal scale for the benefit of the Waffen SS and other SS organizations?
A Yes; I heard that in the camp where I was. I never heard anything about it beforehand, but gold teeth and such were collected. millions of marks to the coffers of the Reichsbank? And it was involving numerous departments of the Third Reich.
Q Let me just read to you Oswald Pohl's affidavit, given to Dr. Kempner upon this matter -- it is Document 4045PS, which will be GB 549 so that perhaps your memory may be refreshed. The affidavit reads:
"1. My name is Oswald Pohl, I was born in Duisburg, Germany, on 30th July 1892. Since 1st February 1934 I was chief of the Economic and Administration Main Office of the Elite Guard (Schutzstaffel) (WVHA). I occupied this position permanently until Germany's capitulation.
"2. Through my activity as Chief of the WVHA I remember clearly two large business deals between my office and the Reich Ministry of Economics and the Reich Bank of Mr. Walter Funk. One deal concerned textiles from persons killed in concentration camps. In this connection Himmler endeavoured to procure through Reich Economics Minister, Walter Funk, a higher allotment for the SS in the uniform material distribution. The other business deal concerned the business connection of my office with the Reich Bank President, Walter Funk, and the Reich Band with regard to jewelry, rings, told teeth, foreign exchange and other articles of value from the possessions of people, particularly Jews, who had been killed in concentration camps.
"3. The connection of my office with the Reich Bank with regard to textiles of persons who had been killed in concentration/amps, was instituted in the year 1941 or 1942. At that time I received the order from the Reich Fuehrer-SS and the German Police, Heinrich Himmler, who was my chief, to get in touch with the Reich Economics Minister, Walter Funk, to obtain a higher allotment of textiles for SS uniforms. Himmler instructed me to demand from Funk that we receive privileged treatment. The Ministry of Economics was receiving from the concentration camps a large amount of textiles delivered. These textiles had been collected in the extermination camp, Auschwitz, and other extermination camps, and then delivered to the proper office for used textiles.
"4. As a result of this order received from my superior, Himmler, I visited the Reich Economics Minister, Funk, in his offices. I waited only a short while in his ante-room and then met him alone in his office. I informed Funk of my instructions that I was to ask him for more textiles from the actions against Jews. I told him that we required these textiles for the Waffen-SS. The meeting lasted around ten minutes. It was openly discussed that we earned perhaps privileged treatment on account of the delivery of old clothes on dead Jews. It was a friendly conversation between Funk and myself and he, said to me that he would settle the matter favorably with the gentlemen concerned. How the subsequent settlement between Funk and his subordinates and my subordinates was handled in detail I do not know.
"5. The second business deal between Walter Funk and the SS concerned the delivery of articles of value of dead Jews to the Reich Bank. It was in the year 1941 or 1942 after larger quantities of articles of value, such as jewelry, gold rings, gold fillings, spectacles, gold watches and such, had been collected in the extermination camps. These articles of value came in packed crates to Berlin to the WVHA. Himmler had ordered us to deliver these things to the Reich Bank. I remember that Himmler explained to me that negotiations concerning this matter had been conducted with the Reichsbank and Mr. Funk. As a result of an agreement which my Chief had made, I discussed with Reichsbank Director Emil Puhl the manner of delivery. In this conversation no doubt remained that the objects to be delivered were the jewelry and valuables of concentration camp inmates, especially of Jews, who had been killed in extermination camps. The objects in question were rings, watches, eye glasses, gold bars, wedding rings, brooches, pins, frames of glasses, foreign currency and other valuables. Further discussions concerning the delivery of these objects took place between my subordinates and Puhl and other gentlemen of the Reichsbank. It was a giant quantity of valuables, since the delivery continued for months and years.
"A part of these valuables of people killed in death camps I saw myself when Reichsbank President Funk and Vice-President Puhl invited us to an inspection of the Reichsbank vaults and subsequently to dinner. I don't remember exactly whether this was in 1941 or in 1942, but I do remember that I already knew Funk personally at that time from the textile industry, as I have described above. Vice President Puhl and several other gentlemen of my staff went to the vaults of the Reichsbank, Puhl himself led us on this occasion and showed us gold bars and other valuable possessions of the Reichsbank. I remember exactly that various trunks of objects from concentration camps were opened. At this time Puhl of Waldhecker, who accompanied him, stated in my presence and in the presence of the gentlemen of my staff that a part of these valuables had been delivered by our office.