Q. Do you know of any other plans of attack on Poland, Denmark, Holland, Norway, France and Russia, by the general SS?
A. I know nothing of it. The general SS would not have been in any position to attack a foreign state.
Q. After the beginning of the war, did the general SS continue to exist and what task did it then have to fulfill?
A. The general SS had, in practice, ceased to exist during the war. Of the 10,000 men who were included in my Oberanschnitt, when the Volkssturm was held up in November, 1944, there were only 1,200 left in the country. These 1,200 non had all been included in war work at home and they were no longer available for SS service. The last men had been taken into the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS.
Q. Was there any official business as you have described which existed during peacetime?
A. No. Further tasks to be fulfilled by the SS was the Fuersorge Kommando (Welfare Command) of the Waffen SS and its work consisted of care for the wounded in the hospitals and care for those left behind by our dead comrades. There were not even men available for this work. We did this work sometimes even with women.
Q. Were the members of the general SS used in case of the so-called Totenkopf formation to guard the concentration camps?
A. Yes, a small percentage, just as members of other branches of the Party, members of the Kiefhaueser Bund, and mostly men who could no longer be used at the front. These men were all recruited on the basis of the emergency service order. Toward the end of the war, members of the Wehrmacht, even citizens of Allied states, provided guards for the concentration camps.
Q I refer in this connection to Document SS 26 and 28. The Prosecution has asserted that the General SS, immediately after 1933, established concentration camps and that killings and atrocities occurred. What do you know about this ?
A The General SS did not establish any concentration camps. The concentration camps were established by the State. To what extent atrocities occurred there I cannot judge. this connection? A No, I knew Engle from the SS but what he had to do with this I do not know. He was in Northern Germany and I in Southern Germany. fuehrer of the General SS; at the same time you were Police President and from 1939 on you were Higher SS and Police Leader. Please comment on this, whether fundamentally the position of Oberabschnittfuehrer of the General SS was connected, first with the position of Police President, and secondly with the position of the Higher SS and Police Chief.
A On principle I can say no on both cases. There were exceptions. The Police President of Duesseldorf, Nuremberg and Munich were at the same time Oberabschnittfuehrer. In the second case I can say that the great majority of Oberabschnittfuehrers of the General SS from 1939 on, that is from the outbreak of war, were also Higher SS and Police Chiefs. An exception existed in Berlin, where the Higher SS and Police Chief was Heissmeier, who was not Oberabschnittsfuehrer of the General SS. and Police Chiefs formed a very close connection between the General SS and the Police.
A No. The SS and Police were separate organizations and only at the head, in the person of Himmler, were they connected. The General SSand the Police had entirely separate tasks.
THEPRESIDENT: I don't understand what you are saying. I thought you said that you were the head of the SS in Munich and also the Police President.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, in order to inform the court ....
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you say that youwerethe head of the SS in Munich and the South and also Police President?
WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And then you say the Police and the SS were only united in the person of Himmler.
THE WITNESS: I have had no opportunity to describe the field of duties of the Higher SS and Police Chief. He had no power to give orders to the Police. He was only a representative of Himmler, without any power to issue orders.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that you had no power to give orders to the Police?
THE WITNESS: In Munich, as Police Chief, yes. That was my State office, that was my profession. In other towns, however, the Oberabschnitts Fuehrer was not police chief. He could not ....
THE PRESIDENT: I am talking about Munich. In Munich you were the head of the SS and you were also Police President?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The two organizations were united in you, is that right?
THE WITNESS: In my case, yes, but not generally.
THE PRESIDENT: I am not talking about generally, I am talking about Munich. Then you go on to say that the Police and the SS were only united in the person of Himmler. Those two statements seem to me to be contradictory.
THE WITNESS: I remarked that only in three cases in all of Germany were the Police Presidents at the same time Fuehrers of the General SS. It was an exception of my case in Munich and Duesseldorf and in Nurenberg. Otherwise --
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you said Dresden, too.
THE WITNESS: In Dresden I was not in the Police.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not say you were. I thought you said the Police President in Dresden was also the head of the SS.
THE WITNESS: No, that must have been misunderstood. I did not say that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. PELCKMANN: function which has not yet been discussed. Please tell us, did the following three positions have any basic connection with each other -- the Police President in the first place, the Higher SS and Police Chief in the second place, and the SS Oberabschnitts Fuehrer in the third place? Were these three, on principle, united in the same person?
A No, in my case, in Munich, it was an exception. In my case they coincided but not in other parts of the Reich. and Higher SS and Police Chief. Please explain to the court what the difference is between these two positions. the Higher SS and Police Chief, that position was created only during the war, without his being considered an official regional authority. According to the official instructions from the Reich Minister of the Interior, his sole task was to represent the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police in his Wehrkreis. He did not have any authority to issue orders to the police. According to the decree of the Reich Minister of the Interior, the Chief of the Hauptaemter, Order Police and Security Police remained the superiors of the police. They were the ones who had the authority to issue orders through their own channels, while the Higher SS and Police Chief was outside, without any authority to issue orders to the police.
Q And now, please, answer the question: Is the assertion of the prosecution correct that the Higher SS and Police Chief formed a close connection between the General SS and the Police?
THE PRESIDENT: You have already asked him thatonce and he has answered it. Let us go on to the next question. Q Is the assertion of the prosecution, that the General SS and the Police officially formed a unity, that is a State within a State, is this assertion correct?
morning in Affidavits 86 and 88, which I shall hand in later. You have already said, witness, that the Higher SS and Police Chief had no power to issue orders to the Order Police or the Security Police. But did the Higher SS and Police Chief have the power to issue orders to the Waffen SS or to the General SS? issue orders. To the General SS only insofar as he was at the same time Fuehrer of the SS or Oberabschnitts Fuehrer of the General SS, not otherwise.
May I add something to my previous answer. The higher SS and Police Chief had the right but not the duty to carry on instructions and he could make suggestion I, for my Own, am only in a position to testify on the activities of the higher SS and Police Chief at home. How it was in the occupied territories, I cannot judge.
Q. To sum up your testimony, could one say that the title Higher SS and Police Chief is misleading?
A. Yes.
Q. On the testimony of the witness on the Higher SS and Police Chief in the occupied territories, in contrast to Germany, I refer to Affidavit SS-87. In your capacity as Higher SS and Police Chief, did you also receive information from the Reichsfuehrer SS on the treatment of enemy fliers when they made emergency landings?
A. Yes.
Q. For what purpose did you receive these announcements and how did you use them?
A. This announcement said it was not the task of the Police to interfere in clashes between the German population and enemy fliers. This announcement said nothing about the treatment. This announcement was signed by Himmler; and the Higher SS and Police Chiefs had orders from Himmler to inform the Commanders of the Police, of the contents of this announcement as far as possible.
Q. Were Himmler's announcements sent previously and subsequently to party agencies by the Party Chancellery, Bormann?
A. Yes, to a great extent. Der Voelkische-Beobachter, a German paper, made publication to that effect, and in addition, the Gauleiter of my District commented on it. In addition, also the Commander of the Order of the Police, Hauptamt, as well as by the Inspector of the Security Police. I should remark that this was so throughout the Reich. They received their orders from the superiors as well. An order was issued giving the same information to the Police Officers as well as by the Roichsicherheits Hauptamt.
Q. On the basis of these decrees, did the attitude of the Police in your district change in any way in the cases of landings of enemy fliers?
A. In no way. Our principal work was to adhere to the principals of the Geneva Convention, and the Hague Rules on Land Warfare. In any case, we had to treat prisoners as was proper.
Q. In the district under your command, did the lynching of fliers occur, and if so, tell us about it?
A. No. Lynchings did not occur. But unfortunately, shootings of fliers did occur. It happened that the fliers were taken out of the Police Stations and shot. As I have now learned from the press, trials have been held for these men, and the murders atoned for. I have been arrested for over a year and get my information from the papers. The reports of the trials indicate that the Police did give the fliers attention and proper treatment, informed the nearest Luftwaffe office, bound their wounds, and did all that could be done for them.
Q. Was it unusual, or a violation of the Hague Rules on Land Warfare, if the fliers were arrested by the Police and not by the Wehrmacht?
A. I can give no judgment on this international -
THE PRESIDENT: He is not a witness on Law. This is a matter for us to judge. war, that any fliers who had made emergency landings were to be taken into custody by the Police?
A Yes. The regulations read as follows: The fliers who had bailed out were to be arrested by the Police. According to German Law, any other citizens were able to do this. Then they were to be taken to the Police. The Police Stations had orders to inform the nearest Luftwaffe office that the Police had enemy pilots and that the Luftwaffe was to come for them. There was a binding rule that these captured fliers were to be turned over to our Luftwaffe offices. Gestapo and the SD?
A Nothing. Through the Inspector of the Security Service, the Higher SS and Police Chiefs, through the basis of existing regulations, were informed of such happenings in the sphere of the State Police or Security Service. These two agencies, the Security Service and the State Police, received instructions directly from the offices concerned, Roman Numeral III or Roman Numeral IV of the RSHA, Reichsicherheitshauptamt. these agencies?
A I believe you made a mistake by saying, "Inspectorate". I could not have any power of command over "Inspectors".
Q You had no power to issue orders to the Security Police and the SD? what did you have to do with the Gestapo or the SD? SS had no power to issue orders to the Gestapo and the SD?
A Yes. The General SS had no executive powers and in addition, in the field of intelligence, in the sphere of security service, was not allowed to interfere.
Stuerme, of the General SS, have any official connection with the Gestapo or the SD? or his Oberabschnitts Fuehrer of the General SS, have to do with concentration camps?
President, the Higher SS and Police Chief, and the Fuehrer of the General SS had nothing to do with concentration camps? to and dismissal from concentration camps, and second for the administration of the concentration camps themselves ? camp, Amt IV of the RSHA was competent. For the administration and internal affairs of the concentration camps, the Economic and Administrative Head Office of the SS was responsible, Amtsgruppe D, Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. killings and atrocities committed against prisoners in concentration camps, neither the Police President of the District in question nor the Higher SS and Police Chief of this district, nor the Fuehrer of the Oberabschnitt of the General SS was responsible ? such things. The concentration camp apparatus was a strictly enclosed set with channels of its own. your own experience?
A Yes. In the course of the years from 1936 on, when I was transferred to Munich, I often received orders from Himmler that I was to take high German and foreign officials to Dachau where the concentration camp was to be found. Among others, I took the Yugoslavian Minister of the Interior there, some high American police officials, a number of commandants of prisoner of war camps, high political personalities from Italy, and so forth. the concentration camps, that was your only opportunity to obtain permission to enter them; and if I have understood you you received permission through the RSHA ?correctly, just like the guests who were inspecting the camp,
A Yes; that is, I received orders to go there, and the guests received permission. It was done in the following way: Either Himmler's staff or the RSHA, through the Inspectors of Concentration Camps, informed the competent camp commandant that guests were coming with me as their guide.
THE PRESIDENT: We do not think you need go into the details of the exact way in which the orders went. We do not want the details. BY DR. PELCKMANN: in a minute, did you ever have any official reason to visit the camp at Dachau ? to obtain information about conditions in the camp, perhaps because you had heard that mass killings were undertaken there, and that the people were starving to death ? everything was in order. The kitchen installation was shown, the hospitals, the operating rooms, showers, bods; and there was an opportunity to see numerous prisoners who, in my judgment, in peace times--that is, before 1938--were in an outstandingly good state of health. After 1939--that is, during the war--they gave the impression of being normally well fed.
There were thousands of prisoners. In Munich, for example, they were employed in public squares and streets, and were active in the removal of bomb debris. Everyone could see the prisoners. From my point of view, on the basis of my knowledge gained during my visit to the camp, I had no inclination to intervene, and I had no right to do so. see more or less than the visitors whom you accompanied ?
A I cannot judge. Tours were given through the whole camp. For example, in the fall of 1944, the commandants of prisoner of war camps were taken through. They were all experts. They knew everything about the camp; they could go around everywhere, according to their own judgment, and could look at everything.
Q. Did you ever hear anything about biological experiments of living persons in the concentration camp at Dachau, and, if so, when?
A. Yes. In the spring of 1944, in the course of criminal police investigations against an SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, Dr. Rascher, a medical doctor, and his wife were accused of "Kindunterschiebung" -- that is a word that is very difficult to translate. They were accused of illegal appropriation of other people's children. ties in connection with the research station at Dachau, where these biological experiments were carried on. This research station was directly subordinate to Himmler, without any intermediate authority.
Q. Did you know anything of these experiments beforemand?
A. No. It was only by coincidence that I found out about them.
Q. Please describe your investigation, so that the Court may see that you did not close your eyes to such things?
A. On the basis of the events of the proceedings which had already begun with the criminal police in Munich, I forced entry into the camp at Dachau. That was as early as 1944. Communications were so poor that I could not wait long for approval. With the help of a teletype message to the Inspectorate I learned that in the course of the police investigation that I could obtain permission from there and would go to the officials at Dachau. I did not know anything about the biological experiments at that time, but knew only of the first two-mentioned offenses. And when, in a talk with the camp commandant, I merely mentioned the name of Rascher, he, as well as the camp doctor, who had been called there, said that they considered Rascher a dangerous person who was carrying on the most abominable experiments on living human beings. He, Rascher, was vested with full powers from Himmler; and the camp commandant and his personnel were so intimidated that up to the time when I intervened, they did not dare oppose Rascher's activity in any way.
They sought in me the protection of a high SS Fuehrer. Rascher had been previously arrested by the criminal police for investigation; so when I dis covered the experiments, of course, I did not release him again.
I immediately made a personal report to Himmler in his field command post in Eigen near Salzburg, on my own decision. Himmler had reproached me by telephone for interfering at all.
He said I probably wanted to hold as sensational Trial. I made the situation clear to Himmler. He was very reserved toward me then. I said I did not understand anything about the matter. Rascher made very important experiments. He promised he would keep the documents which I had brought and would submit the Rascher case to the highest court; the Supreme SS and Police Court, it was a competent court. Himmler was Rascher's superior. Unfortunately, he was not subject to the jurisdiction of my court.
Q Was any trial of Rascher held?
Q What became of Rascher?
A Rascher remained under arrest. Without interruption for weeks and months, I kept applying to Himmler's office. I learned later that Himmler had not turned over the files at all.
Q Did you later learn Rascher was in a concentration camp?
A Yes. Rascher remained under arrest in the SS Barracks, Munich. Because of the approach of the American troops, the barracks were evacuated. He was then sent to Dachau. I have learned from the press that he must have been shot during the last few days. I cannot give any further information. Since the 20th of April, 1945, I was relieved of my post.
THE PRESIDENT: Before we adjourn, perhaps you can tell us how long you are going to be with this witness.
DR. PELCKMANN: I assume 45 minutes, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 5 August 1946, at 1000 hours.)
GOERING ET AL., DEFENDANTS, SITTING AT NURNBERG,
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Delckmann BY DR. DELCKMANN (Counsel for the SS):
Q. Witness, on Saturday you said that the witness Rascher, the accused Rascher, had been in a concentration camp, at the end. Did you approve of this settlement of the affair ?
A. No. I was of the opinion that these criminal deeds should be punished by court trial.
Q. If you did not approve of this settlement without a formal trial, what were you able to do against it ?
A. I may repeat that without interruption I applied to Himmler's office and I made inquiries of the Supreme SS and Police Court. I may point out that the binding regulations of the Kriegsstrafverfahrungs Ordnung-- the War Penal Cole-- provided that Himmler alone was competent. A complaint to Hitler through Himmler would have been possible for me, but in view of the existing situation, this was a practical impossibility. Neither an oral nor a written complaint or report from me would ever have reached Hitler nine years of my official activity in Munich, on only one single time, for about ten minutes, was I admitted to see Hitler because he wanted a report from me on the blocking off measures on the occasion of a big demonstration. That is the only time.
The only other thing I could have done was to resign. On the basis of the existing regulations, this would doubtless not have been accepted.
ance as a soldier, for I was a general of the Waffen SS and was bound by my oath of allegiance to the flag. Then I would have been courtmartialed and sent to a concentration camp.
Q. You just said that you were a General of the Waffen SS. So far you have told the Tribunal only that you were a member of the General SS. When and for what reason did you become a General of the Waffen SS, although up to then you had had nothing whatever to do with the Waffen SS ?
A. In the fall of 1944 Himmler became Commander in Chief of the Reserve Army. When he took over this office, the prisoner of war system also came under his jurisdiction. Himmler transferred to the Higher SS and Police Chiefs in the fall of 1944 the responsibility for safeguarding prisoner of war camps against mass escapes and attempts to liberate prisoners from the outside. For this purpose, the Higher SS and Police Chiefs were made Higher Commanders of the prisoners of war. International regulations regarding prisoners of war -- according to these regulations, police could not be used to guard prisoners of war. The Higher SS and Police Chiefs were taken over into the Waffen SS and appointed Generals of the Waffen SS.
THE PRESIDENT : If you could go a little bit faster, if you could speak a little bit faster, I think it would be convenient to the Tribunal. BY DR. PELCKMANN : September of 1944, as Commander-in-Chief of the reserve army, became chief of the Prisoner of War System and that the SS had now been in charge of prisoners of war; is that true? That is not true. Aside from the higher commander of the prisoners of war, no other SS member had anything to do with the prisoners of war. The prosecution further asserts that through the transfer of these prisoner of war tasks to Himmler or to the higher commander of prisoners of war in the fall of 1944 the inhumane treatment and destruction of allied prisoners of war by the SS was systematically promoted. Is that true? No, because as far as within the camps, the internal administration, the camp Commandant of the Wehrmacht continued responsible for that. The task assigned to us was as security, which began only outside the camp. Moreover, during the visit which I made to the individual camps during the six months of my competency, I always questioned the prisoners of war themselves and asked them whether they had any complaints. Not a single complaint of this type reached me from these men. As higher commander of prisoners of war from the fall of 1944 on, did you have anything to do with the labor commitment of prisoners of war? commitment staff of the Wehrmacht in cooperation with the provincial labor offices or with those parties leading labor.
The higher commander of prisoners of war did not deal with this.
jurisdiction over concentration camps, or your lack of jurisdiction over them, as you described it Saturday? camps and concentration camps as well, the higher SS and police chief was given the responsibility for safeguarding the camps from the outside for the same reasons as just mentioned, with a view to maintaining state security. Q For the delivery of prisoners to the camps did the RSHA remain responsible, and for the administration of camps, Amtsgruppe D was responsible? and for internal administration of the camp, the inspectorate of concentration camps, Amtsgruppe D of the economic and administrative main office. of how difficult it was for you, because of your limited powers, to prevent the death of thousands of concentration camp inmates
A Yes. In the beginning of March, 1945, the Gauleiter and Reichs Defense Kommissar Giesler in Munich ordered me to come to him, and demanded that I should influence the Kommandant of Dachau to the effect that when the American troops approached the prisoners - there were 25,000 people there at the time - were to be shot. I refused this demand, with indignation, and I pointed out that I could not give any orders to the Kommandant, whereup* Giesler said to me that he, as Reichs Defense Kommissar, would see to it that the camp would be bombed by our own forces. I told him that I considered it impossible that any German air firce commander would be willing to do this. Then Giesler said he would see to it that something would be put into the soup of the prisoners. That is, he threatened to poison them. From my own initiative I sent an inquiry to the inspector of the concentration camp by teletyee and asked for a decision from Himmler as to what was to be done with the prisoners in case the American troops approached.
Shortly thereafter the news came that the camps were to be surrendered to the enemy. I showed that to Giesler. He was quite indignant because I had frustrated his plans and had put it on a different point of view. Shortly thereafter we had another clash regarding the defense of the city of Munich., which was completely hopeless. The Wehrkreis Commander was thrown out eight days before me, and on the 20th of April I was also dismisses and all my offices were taken away from me, and I was without power.
THE PRESIDENT : The man you are speaking of, the Gauleiter, was Gauleiter of what district? What Gau?
THE WITNESS : Munich and Upper Bavaria. He was also Bavarian Prime Minister and Bavarian Minister of the interior and Reichs Defense Kommissar. BY DR. PELCKMANN : teristics of Gauleiter Giseler. According to the structure of internal administration at the time, did he formally have the right to the action which he intended to carry out?
A Yes. The Reichs Defense Kommissar, in all questions of the defense of the country, could put his will through on the basis of the existing regulations for the Reich Defense Kommissar. In acition, as I have already said, the man was Bavarian Prime Minister, and as such he had the powers in the province. was indicated that in the course of the war the SS -- it was given in this form, that the SS represented the government in Germany, will you please describe in whose hands, according to you. opinion, according to your experience at the time in such a high position, in whose hands the state power was, from 1933 to 1945.
A In any case, not in the hands of the SS. During the war, important functions of the Reich power were in the hands of the Reich Defense Kommissars, who could take port in all things except the Reich Special Administration.
I may refer to the Reich legal regulations of the 16th of November, I believe, 1942. Moreover, through the influence of Martin Bormann, things in the Reich were directed more or less by the Gauleiter and the Reich Defense Kommissars. The SS, in any case, was no different and decisive factor. The general SS, as I testified on Saturday, no longer existed in the country, and the troops of the Waffen SS were at the front.
Q One more question, witness. When and in what way did you learn that members of the Jewish population in your district were deported to the East? a report of the Criminal Police of Munich from the morning report that in the preceding night a number of suicides had taken place in Munich. That attracted my attention as being something quite unusual. I tried to clear up the matter by asking the head of the criminal Police why there had been the suicides. I believe there were six or eight in one night. He referred no to the Gestapo. Through the head of the state police I learned that the removal of a few hundred - I believe - Jewish inhabitants of Munich or the district - I don't know whether they were all from Munich - was ordered. In answer to my question as to where they ware to be sent, I was told that was a re-settlement for the purpose of labor commitment in the East, and it was said credibly that the trains had already been arranged for With the Reichsbahn Directorate and that the choice of persons, on instructions from the RSHA to the Gestapo, had been reached in agreement with the Israelitic community. The persons in questions were in the possession of certain amounts of money, of food cards, and of a certain amount of baggage.