the Jewish population in public life and the economy to ten per cent, which was the proportion they held to the population, that this was a crime against humanity? was your aim, did you want to reach it by force?
A No, under no circumstances. The SS had no influence, moreover, on these matters. party's program through individual actions and were strictly instructed in this matter? individual action was forbidden. For instance, we had a very strict law whereby we were not to carry on any activity whereby the political activities of the party might be endangered, as for instance if the police had found arms on us. Even later Hitler always forbade any action to be taken of an individual nature. in accord with your ideology, did you believe that thereby you were preparing a new war and thus, by a planned war, any opposition inside Germany would be impossible?
AAccording to my opinion I cannot understand that. The SS, after the announcement of the Nurnberg laws in 1935, were completely surprised as we thought the Jewish problem had been solved by the state. I remember too, that at that time Hitler had warned very strongly that one should not go beyond these laws and pointed out the great responsibility which rested in the hands of the German people. aggression if the party or state excluded Communists or Socialists from public life?
Q Did you have any such considerations at all?
A No. There seems to be a confusion. The circumstances were such that these matters never entered our mind.
Q What preparations did you notice in the SS for a war of aggression?
Q Was the General SS educated militarily? shooting and other such exercises, which cannot be considered military training. May I also point out that Himmler said to me and to other SS Fuehrers that armament training was forbidden not in the Wehrmacht after 1935 and from that it seems obvious that no military training tasks were given to the SS or planned for it. Every SS member, as any other German, had to get military training inside the Wehrmacht and not in the SS.
"The General SS is entirely a professional organization." and the German Police.
"Between the ages of 21 and 35 the greatest duties are imposed upon the man, especially up to the age of 25. In these first four years he must march and take part in competitive sports of all sorts and then the SS man up to the age of fifty will have to pass annual examinations. Why is this? The men are very active in their professions and one half to three-fifths are city dwellers. Their work in the cities is generally of a sedentary nature, and, in addition to that, there are the bad social conditions in the great cities and from the military point of view this is a grave problem.
"Men of the twentieth century no longer walk. They travel with the subway and so on."
I quote again:
"If we want to remain young we must participate in sport. But all this remains on paper if every year the men are not tested and also made proud of themselves so that they really participate in sport." 1933 this was the typical activity of the SS?
at gatherings and also at the Reichstag or in newspapers which contained promises of lasting peace and praise of it, yes even a horror of and fear of the ghastliness of war? Reichparteitag and traffic and so forth, were all these tasks of the SS? maintain order. In addition to the maintenance of order, they had to accompany honorary guests and also take care of them. Those were always difficult and tiring days for the men, who also had to participate in the parade when the parade marched past.
Q Did you have to take care of the honorary guests?
A Yes. On Reichsparteitags I myself and other higher SS Fuehrers had the task of leading the SS. Personally, at one of the last Reichsparteitags I was in charge of the British ambassador.
Q Where were you on the 30 June, 1934? so-called Putsch? 1934, I was ordered to Berlin by Himmler and he announced officially to me that Roehm was planning a Putsch and he also gave me instructions to hold my SS men in readiness and to bring them together in a barracks and also to give them instructions in case of something happening and so I had this information before it occurred.
Q Did the General SS take part in any killings on the 30 June, 1934? What do you know about it from your activities at that time?
A The General SS did not participate in any killings. It remained in barracks throughout the entire event.
in spite of everything?
A Yes. In the course of the day of the 30 June SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Beutel came to me for security services and he had an order from Heydrich. He was a younger man, this Beutel, and he did not know what he had to do and he came to me in order to obtain advice from me, an older man. He had the order in which there were approximately 28 names and in addition to that it seemed that some of these men were to be arrested and the others were to be executed. This written order had no signature on it and I advised this Obersturmbannfuehrer to get clarification as to what should take place and I warned him against any immediate action. Then, as far as I know, a courier was sent to Berlin and this courier then brought eight orders of execution back and these were from Heydrich.
It was an order of the Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor. Then followed the name of the man to be executed, so and so for high treason condemned to death, and these documents were signed by Heydrich. The signature was, however, not genuine but was stamped, just a stamp of Heydrich's name. too, in Dresden were shot by the political police of Saxony.
In addition to that, in Plauen a Hitler Jugend Leader was also shot and another person, too, in Kemnitz. That is what I know about it, at least about my area.
Q. Did you have anything to do with these shootings as Fuehrer of the Allegemeine SS (General SS)?
A. No, I had nothing to do with it. These orders coming from the State were taken to the political police and we could neither facilitate nor hinder them.
Q. Did you believe that Roehm really had treasonable intents and that the danger of the German government and the German nation was so immediate that only immediate action; that is to say, the shooting of those guilty could save the situation?
A. I really believed in an emergency and felt that because the highest German police authority; namely, Himmler, himself, had said so, it must be true; and moreover, on account of the state of alarm and with my cooperation with the Wehrkreis Befehlshaber, I was in a position which was very important.
Q. Do you remember that immediately after these events, the press had two telegrams of Reichspresident von Hindenburg and published them and one of them was to the Fuehrer, of June 2, 1934; and the other one to Goering of the 2nd June 1934. I quote SS document 74, which will later be handed in. Telegram of Hindenburg to Hitler: "From the reports which had been brought to me, I see that by your decisive action and by your personal activity you have nipped in the bud all these treasonable activities. You saved the German people from a grave danger. For this, I express to you my deeply-felt gratitude and respect. With the best greetings, von Hindenburg."
The telegram from von Hindenburg to Goering: "For your energetic and successful activity in the destruction of this treasonable organization, I express to you my gratitude and respect." Did you read these telegrams at the time in the press?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the speech which Hitler made before the German Reichstag on June 13, 1934, in which he also said how apparently an immediate danger had been hovering over Germany?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember this -- and I will quote only a very brief extract from SS document 105.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, don't you think that you can summarize this rather more? This witness has said that so far as his district is concerned, the SS had nothing to do with the Roehm and it doesn't seem to be necessary to put all the details of it to him.
DR. PELCKMANN: I believe that I have only to add one point to the Roehm putsch but perhaps already it has been pointed out that there could be no suspicion that an unjust activity was the case.
THE PRESIDENT: You realize, don't you, as we have said over and over again, that we don't want to have the evidence given before the Commission reported before us. What we wish is to have a summary and only the most important points dealt with and any new points; and, of course, we wish to see the witnesses in order to see whether they are credible.
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, I will keep that in mind, your lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we better adjourn now.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: With reference to the applications by Dr. Siemers, both of those applications are rejected. Dr. Siemers, of course, may go and visit Vice Admiral Buerkner if he wishes to do so, but the particular application which he made in that respect is rejected and so is the other application which he made for certain documents which are in public libraries. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q One more question on the 30th of June. Witness, from Hitler's speech, do you recall that he said that some innocent persons had been killed and that he promised the judging of these cases in orderly court procedure? everywhere hear the opinion which you have testified to here today that a state of emergency had existed?
1938? General SS? head of the SS Oberabschnitt Sued, Chief Section South. In addition I was Police President of Munich. gainst Jewish businesses during this night ? company Hitler to the meeting of the old fighters in the old City Hall, (Rathaus). There Hitler was told that the legation counsellor von Rath had died of his injuries. Hitler was deeply impressed and refused to speak. During this dinner he had a very serious discussion with Goebbels.
What was discussed I could not understand. Shortly thereafter Hitler drove to his home. I accompanied him there on my official duty. Following that I was made responsible for the security measures on the Odeon's Platz. Every year, from the 9th to the 10th of November, a meeting was held there to get new recruits for the Waffen SS. When I came to the Odeon's Platz Club it was reported to me that a synagogue was burning and that the fire department was being interfered with.
Munich Land who told me that the Jewish castle, Planeck, had been set on fire by an unknown person. The Gerndarmerin asked for assistance. This was about 2300 hours -- at 23-45. At 2400 hours Hitler came to the meeting. Since I could not leave my pose I sent the next Highest SS leader, Brigadefuehrer Diehm to the synagogue to create order there. In addition, I sent a raiding party of the police under an officer to Planeck in order to catch the person responsible and to help put out the fire. Higher SS Leaders, I was ordered to report to Himmler. There in the hotel, the Deputy Gauleiter Nippoll informed me that following Hitler's departure from the Rathouse, Goebbels had held an extravagant meeting of incitement against the Jews, and as a result, considerable excesses had occurred in the city. I immediately drove through the city in order to look over the situation. I saw shop windows which had been smashed, a few stores were bruning. I immediately took steps myself against this and then I put all available police on the streets with instructions to protect Jewish business establishments until further notice. Munich, I saw to it that the shop windows were nailed shut to prevent theft and so forth.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the witness is saying that he took every step to prevent these excesses. I don't think we sant the details. I don't think that we want to hear the details of the steps he took to prevent these things and to keep order. The Prosecution can cross-examine if they want to.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, is it not possible to have me submit to the witness just what he will be asked by the Prosecution? I consider it important.....
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has been telling us, for several minutes, what happened on the 9th and 10th of November, 1938, and we think we know enough. We know the general nature of what excesses took place and I don't want the details of it. If you think that he has not said that the SS did not partici pate in the excesses, you can ask him that question.
He says that he did not take part, but that he tried to stop it. I don't want to hear the details of how he tried to stop it. BY DR. PELCKMANN: cipate in the excesses and did the SS offices subordinate to you obey these orders?
A. I told Brigadefuehrer Diehm that I strictly prohibited any action and I threatened considerable punishment. We considered this action definitely indecent in the SS.
Q. Do you know, witness, that an Adjutant Schallermeier, on the night before the 10th of November, took dictation from Himmler, approximately to the effect that he disliked the whole action of Goebbels propaganda and that Himmler had said the SS was to keep out of this action?
A. I don't know this document.
Q. I refer to the affidavit, SS number 5, which will be discussed later. You said, witness, that this whole action was prohibited by the leaders and the members of the SS. Is this because of the basic attitude of the SS in the Jewish question or do you consider that it was a variation that you yourself heard from some other source that it was a variation that you yourself heard from some other source that it would be too bad for the values of German national property to be destroyed?
A. I can only say that the SS. just like the Party, was anti-Semitic, but quite aside from any material reasons, we considered this indecent and the SS did not participate in it.
Q. One more question. On the preparation for wars of aggression, do you know whether the general SS made preparations for the entry into Austria and whether it participated in it?
A. No, the general SS did not participate in it. My Oberabschnitt covered the whole German-Austrian border. I would positively have had to know about it.
Q. Do you know of any other plans of attack on Poland, Denmark, Holland, Norway, France and Russia, by the general SS?
A. I know nothing of it. The general SS would not have been in any position to attack a foreign state.
Q. After the beginning of the war, did the general SS continue to exist and what task did it then have to fulfill?
A. The general SS had, in practice, ceased to exist during the war. Of the 10,000 men who were included in my Oberanschnitt, when the Volkssturm was held up in November, 1944, there were only 1,200 left in the country. These 1,200 non had all been included in war work at home and they were no longer available for SS service. The last men had been taken into the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS.
Q. Was there any official business as you have described which existed during peacetime?
A. No. Further tasks to be fulfilled by the SS was the Fuersorge Kommando (Welfare Command) of the Waffen SS and its work consisted of care for the wounded in the hospitals and care for those left behind by our dead comrades. There were not even men available for this work. We did this work sometimes even with women.
Q. Were the members of the general SS used in case of the so-called Totenkopf formation to guard the concentration camps?
A. Yes, a small percentage, just as members of other branches of the Party, members of the Kiefhaueser Bund, and mostly men who could no longer be used at the front. These men were all recruited on the basis of the emergency service order. Toward the end of the war, members of the Wehrmacht, even citizens of Allied states, provided guards for the concentration camps.
Q I refer in this connection to Document SS 26 and 28. The Prosecution has asserted that the General SS, immediately after 1933, established concentration camps and that killings and atrocities occurred. What do you know about this ?
A The General SS did not establish any concentration camps. The concentration camps were established by the State. To what extent atrocities occurred there I cannot judge. this connection? A No, I knew Engle from the SS but what he had to do with this I do not know. He was in Northern Germany and I in Southern Germany. fuehrer of the General SS; at the same time you were Police President and from 1939 on you were Higher SS and Police Leader. Please comment on this, whether fundamentally the position of Oberabschnittfuehrer of the General SS was connected, first with the position of Police President, and secondly with the position of the Higher SS and Police Chief.
A On principle I can say no on both cases. There were exceptions. The Police President of Duesseldorf, Nuremberg and Munich were at the same time Oberabschnittfuehrer. In the second case I can say that the great majority of Oberabschnittfuehrers of the General SS from 1939 on, that is from the outbreak of war, were also Higher SS and Police Chiefs. An exception existed in Berlin, where the Higher SS and Police Chief was Heissmeier, who was not Oberabschnittsfuehrer of the General SS. and Police Chiefs formed a very close connection between the General SS and the Police.
A No. The SS and Police were separate organizations and only at the head, in the person of Himmler, were they connected. The General SSand the Police had entirely separate tasks.
THEPRESIDENT: I don't understand what you are saying. I thought you said that you were the head of the SS in Munich and also the Police President.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, in order to inform the court ....
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you say that youwerethe head of the SS in Munich and the South and also Police President?
WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And then you say the Police and the SS were only united in the person of Himmler.
THE WITNESS: I have had no opportunity to describe the field of duties of the Higher SS and Police Chief. He had no power to give orders to the Police. He was only a representative of Himmler, without any power to issue orders.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that you had no power to give orders to the Police?
THE WITNESS: In Munich, as Police Chief, yes. That was my State office, that was my profession. In other towns, however, the Oberabschnitts Fuehrer was not police chief. He could not ....
THE PRESIDENT: I am talking about Munich. In Munich you were the head of the SS and you were also Police President?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The two organizations were united in you, is that right?
THE WITNESS: In my case, yes, but not generally.
THE PRESIDENT: I am not talking about generally, I am talking about Munich. Then you go on to say that the Police and the SS were only united in the person of Himmler. Those two statements seem to me to be contradictory.
THE WITNESS: I remarked that only in three cases in all of Germany were the Police Presidents at the same time Fuehrers of the General SS. It was an exception of my case in Munich and Duesseldorf and in Nurenberg. Otherwise --
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you said Dresden, too.
THE WITNESS: In Dresden I was not in the Police.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not say you were. I thought you said the Police President in Dresden was also the head of the SS.
THE WITNESS: No, that must have been misunderstood. I did not say that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. PELCKMANN: function which has not yet been discussed. Please tell us, did the following three positions have any basic connection with each other -- the Police President in the first place, the Higher SS and Police Chief in the second place, and the SS Oberabschnitts Fuehrer in the third place? Were these three, on principle, united in the same person?
A No, in my case, in Munich, it was an exception. In my case they coincided but not in other parts of the Reich. and Higher SS and Police Chief. Please explain to the court what the difference is between these two positions. the Higher SS and Police Chief, that position was created only during the war, without his being considered an official regional authority. According to the official instructions from the Reich Minister of the Interior, his sole task was to represent the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police in his Wehrkreis. He did not have any authority to issue orders to the police. According to the decree of the Reich Minister of the Interior, the Chief of the Hauptaemter, Order Police and Security Police remained the superiors of the police. They were the ones who had the authority to issue orders through their own channels, while the Higher SS and Police Chief was outside, without any authority to issue orders to the police.
Q And now, please, answer the question: Is the assertion of the prosecution correct that the Higher SS and Police Chief formed a close connection between the General SS and the Police?
THE PRESIDENT: You have already asked him thatonce and he has answered it. Let us go on to the next question. Q Is the assertion of the prosecution, that the General SS and the Police officially formed a unity, that is a State within a State, is this assertion correct?
morning in Affidavits 86 and 88, which I shall hand in later. You have already said, witness, that the Higher SS and Police Chief had no power to issue orders to the Order Police or the Security Police. But did the Higher SS and Police Chief have the power to issue orders to the Waffen SS or to the General SS? issue orders. To the General SS only insofar as he was at the same time Fuehrer of the SS or Oberabschnitts Fuehrer of the General SS, not otherwise.
May I add something to my previous answer. The higher SS and Police Chief had the right but not the duty to carry on instructions and he could make suggestion I, for my Own, am only in a position to testify on the activities of the higher SS and Police Chief at home. How it was in the occupied territories, I cannot judge.
Q. To sum up your testimony, could one say that the title Higher SS and Police Chief is misleading?
A. Yes.
Q. On the testimony of the witness on the Higher SS and Police Chief in the occupied territories, in contrast to Germany, I refer to Affidavit SS-87. In your capacity as Higher SS and Police Chief, did you also receive information from the Reichsfuehrer SS on the treatment of enemy fliers when they made emergency landings?
A. Yes.
Q. For what purpose did you receive these announcements and how did you use them?
A. This announcement said it was not the task of the Police to interfere in clashes between the German population and enemy fliers. This announcement said nothing about the treatment. This announcement was signed by Himmler; and the Higher SS and Police Chiefs had orders from Himmler to inform the Commanders of the Police, of the contents of this announcement as far as possible.
Q. Were Himmler's announcements sent previously and subsequently to party agencies by the Party Chancellery, Bormann?
A. Yes, to a great extent. Der Voelkische-Beobachter, a German paper, made publication to that effect, and in addition, the Gauleiter of my District commented on it. In addition, also the Commander of the Order of the Police, Hauptamt, as well as by the Inspector of the Security Police. I should remark that this was so throughout the Reich. They received their orders from the superiors as well. An order was issued giving the same information to the Police Officers as well as by the Roichsicherheits Hauptamt.
Q. On the basis of these decrees, did the attitude of the Police in your district change in any way in the cases of landings of enemy fliers?
A. In no way. Our principal work was to adhere to the principals of the Geneva Convention, and the Hague Rules on Land Warfare. In any case, we had to treat prisoners as was proper.
Q. In the district under your command, did the lynching of fliers occur, and if so, tell us about it?
A. No. Lynchings did not occur. But unfortunately, shootings of fliers did occur. It happened that the fliers were taken out of the Police Stations and shot. As I have now learned from the press, trials have been held for these men, and the murders atoned for. I have been arrested for over a year and get my information from the papers. The reports of the trials indicate that the Police did give the fliers attention and proper treatment, informed the nearest Luftwaffe office, bound their wounds, and did all that could be done for them.
Q. Was it unusual, or a violation of the Hague Rules on Land Warfare, if the fliers were arrested by the Police and not by the Wehrmacht?
A. I can give no judgment on this international -
THE PRESIDENT: He is not a witness on Law. This is a matter for us to judge. war, that any fliers who had made emergency landings were to be taken into custody by the Police?
A Yes. The regulations read as follows: The fliers who had bailed out were to be arrested by the Police. According to German Law, any other citizens were able to do this. Then they were to be taken to the Police. The Police Stations had orders to inform the nearest Luftwaffe office that the Police had enemy pilots and that the Luftwaffe was to come for them. There was a binding rule that these captured fliers were to be turned over to our Luftwaffe offices. Gestapo and the SD?
A Nothing. Through the Inspector of the Security Service, the Higher SS and Police Chiefs, through the basis of existing regulations, were informed of such happenings in the sphere of the State Police or Security Service. These two agencies, the Security Service and the State Police, received instructions directly from the offices concerned, Roman Numeral III or Roman Numeral IV of the RSHA, Reichsicherheitshauptamt. these agencies?
A I believe you made a mistake by saying, "Inspectorate". I could not have any power of command over "Inspectors".
Q You had no power to issue orders to the Security Police and the SD? what did you have to do with the Gestapo or the SD? SS had no power to issue orders to the Gestapo and the SD?
A Yes. The General SS had no executive powers and in addition, in the field of intelligence, in the sphere of security service, was not allowed to interfere.
Stuerme, of the General SS, have any official connection with the Gestapo or the SD? or his Oberabschnitts Fuehrer of the General SS, have to do with concentration camps?
President, the Higher SS and Police Chief, and the Fuehrer of the General SS had nothing to do with concentration camps? to and dismissal from concentration camps, and second for the administration of the concentration camps themselves ? camp, Amt IV of the RSHA was competent. For the administration and internal affairs of the concentration camps, the Economic and Administrative Head Office of the SS was responsible, Amtsgruppe D, Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. killings and atrocities committed against prisoners in concentration camps, neither the Police President of the District in question nor the Higher SS and Police Chief of this district, nor the Fuehrer of the Oberabschnitt of the General SS was responsible ? such things. The concentration camp apparatus was a strictly enclosed set with channels of its own. your own experience?
A Yes. In the course of the years from 1936 on, when I was transferred to Munich, I often received orders from Himmler that I was to take high German and foreign officials to Dachau where the concentration camp was to be found. Among others, I took the Yugoslavian Minister of the Interior there, some high American police officials, a number of commandants of prisoner of war camps, high political personalities from Italy, and so forth. the concentration camps, that was your only opportunity to obtain permission to enter them; and if I have understood you you received permission through the RSHA ?correctly, just like the guests who were inspecting the camp,