If he is questioned, he should be questioned before the Commission. I must oppose it for reasons of procedure. The prosecution has for months, and perhaps years, been in position to see a very large quantity of material which has be seized. It has also been in the position, by organizations such as the CIC and the Intelligence Service to question witnesses who had been in camps for over a year. For a long time they have been in position to prepare the cross-examination before the Commission. The Prosecution, should not, in my opinion, because of these very grant advantages which it has compared to the Defense Counsel, be allowed to do this. However, I will withdraw my objection if my request which I made months ago, to be able to have access to the Documentation Offices of the Allies and look also for rebuttal material there were granted to me now. I will consider it fair then in case the Tribunal accepted, also the application of the Prosecution.
I would then at least be in a position to find rebuttal material amongst the documents, and I would withdraw completely my opposition when it would also be granted to me on the ground of the rebuttal material found in this way to continue the questioning of witnesses before the Commission, as nor the Prosecution has requested in the case of the witness Sievers. One can see that this case which the Prosecution has been handling, by investigating further the material, has been able to produce more documents against the SS, and should it not be granted in this case that the defense should have the chance to find save rebuttal material.
DR. DODD : Mr. President, before the Tribunal rules on this application, I would like to make one statement. This is the second time, at last, that Dr. Pelckmann has inferred that because he has been denied access to the document room that there is something oppressive about it as regards the defense. what is on that document room, and we know perfectly well there is no document there that rebuts any evidence that has been offered in this case, and if there were, it would have been made available to this Tribunal and to these defendants. I think it is fair to say that we rather resent this implication from the defense at this stage of these proceedings.
DR. PELCKMANN : May I add something to this? In my document book there are documents which I have found either in written material which has not yet been seized, or else in documents which I, after an exact description and definition, was able to obtain through the general secretary and through requests of my own. to indicate exactly that documents in such cases can be requested when I have not beforehand exactly like the Prosecution been in a position to go through the entire mass of material, and that is the point which I stress.
We see in this case how the Prosecution, contrary to the defense, and especially that of the organizations, is able to collect material.
THE PRESIDENT : We have already heard you say that, and we fully understand the point. should be produced for cross examination here. That witness has already given evidence before the Commission, and in the opinion of the Tribunal, it is of importance that his evidence should be given fully, should be brought to light fully before the Tribunal. As these documents have only just cone into the hands of the prosecution, the Tribunal thinks it right that the documents should be put to the witness. It is the most convenient and the shortest course that they should be put to the witness before the Tribunal.
As to Dr. Pelckmann's objections that the defense are not being treated fairly with reference to the investigation of the documents, the Tribunal thinks there is no foundation for this complaint. It would not be proper to allow the defense to have what is in the nature of a fishing investigation into the thousands of documents which are in the hands of the Prosecution. If the defense can specify any document that they want, they will begiven a view of that document. which is helpful to the defense ought to be disclosed to them. That is the practice in the English courts, at any rate, and Mr. Dodd has informed the Tribunal now that if there were any document which were in any way helpful to the defense in the Prosecution's document room, it would be made available to the defense.
DR. PELCKMANN : I would only like to any, your Lordship, that I did not say that the Prosecution was no fair in this matter, but in this case I would consider it fair if we had the opportunity.
THE PRESIDENT : I am explaining to you why the Tribunal do not think it is possible that the defense counsel should be allowed to reve*** about in the Prosecution's document room.
DR. PELCKMANN : I call witness Freiherr von Eberstein. stand and testified as follows :
BY THE PRESIDENT :
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me : will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
TEE PRESIDENT : You may sit down. Co ahead.
DR. PELCKMANN : I will be very grateful to Your Lordship if the interpretation could be organized in such a way that technical definitions and professional terms could be, as far as possible, given in the German, because very often confusions arise in the interpretation. In the SS organization there are so many special definitions which it is difficult to keep apart in an interpretation.
THE PRESIDENT : Well, the Tribunal thinks that it would be convenient to them if both the German denomination and the English were given -- or the other language were given.
BY DR. PELCKMANN : of the general SS? SS? a pause, just as I am going to trying to make a pause after each answer. In 1928 dit the SS have its own chief, or was it under the chief of the SA?
A In 1928 the SS was under the SS leadership. The head was at the time Captain von Pfeffer. Himmiler was at the time not head of the SS. The SS was under a certain Haiden, an Oberstabchef.
Q Was there an organization special for the SS? capacity? That is to say, in addition to your other profession, or was it your chief capacity?
A I belonged to the SS besides my profession. I was a civil servant until 1934.
3 Aug M LJG 4-1
Q As an SS fuehrer, did you have any salary?
A No, I had no salary as an SS fuehrer; and I lived on my own fortune. Then later I had a salary of about a hundred raid fifty marled every month as a civil servant.
Q Was that as a civil servant? in the SS?
Q What were the reasons for your entering the SS? What reasons did you give? ber of the SS because I had already been in the party some years; and a value was given to my collaboration and that is how I came into the SS.
Q Were you in the World War? War.
Q What was your rank in 1930 in the SS?
Q What was your rank in 1933? the aims and activities of the SS before and after 1933 ?
Q You are a member of the German mobility, Witness? nobility belongs to the respectable classes of the population. How does it happen that you became a member of an organization which, according to the belief of the prosecution, is criminal? keeping with the tradition of my family; and so when I became a member of the party and of the SS, I felt that I was fulfilling a patriotic task; and also before 1933 there were a great 3 Aug M LJG 4-2 number of aristocrats and no labors of German princery houses who were members of the SS.
Q After 1933 was this movement ever stronger? gen became a member of the SS, and Prince Von Brauschweig, Prince Lippe-Biesterfeld, General Graf Von Schulenburg, and many others. became a member of the SS?
DR. PELCKMANN: I point out to the Tribunal the document Number 5, which will later be handed in. the membership of such prominent personages has undo an impression on members of all classes in Germany? certainly. "If such good people belonged to the SS and worked for its aims, then it seems certainly that these aims must be good and legal." Do you mean that in this way?
A Yes. In any case I am of the opinion, and it was the opinion of my comrades, that one could at no time take it for granted that the organization followed criminal aims. violence, and were these not among its aims?
A No. As its very name says, "Schutzstaffel," "protective troop," this branch of the party was set up in order to protect the leading personalities. In general, I would like to point out also that already in. 1930 Hitler, in the trial of the army officers, said that this revolution was planned to cone through legal ways and that is how he expected to achieve power, through elections; and so he became Chancellor of the German Reich.
3 Aug M LJG 4-3 in the year 1933 when you were in Thuringia, the number of members, and other such details. 1929 in Thuringia. As far as the Reich Party Rally in 1929 was concerned, we had in all Thuringia approximately forty-five or fifty SS. As the Reichsparteitag there were SS men from all Germany, approximately seven hundred non. In 1930 there were election fights in Thuringia, which necessitated a commitment of a large number of SS men in order to protect the speakers. Some of these SS non were known to me: and I had to say which SS man had to accompany which speaker. This protection was necessary on account of the very difficult political struggle; and one had to be glad when the men came back safe and sound in the evening without having been wounded. of the party? Will you please speak slowly because the interpreters are having difficulty. An order of the highest SA Fuehrung said that it should never have more than ten per cent of the numerical strength of the SA.
Q Where were you in 1933?
Q And in what position? is the biggest one there.
Q How many SS non were at the time under your orders?
A That was after the taking of power. There must have been ten or fifteen thousand of then.
Q What area did this number cover? SS in these years?
3 Aug M LJ G 4-4 that the National Socialist Government had come to power; and a large number of people wanted to show their loyalty to the now state. Secondly, after the party in May, 1933, had ordered that it would take no more members, many wanted to become member of the groups, such as SS and SA, and then later become members of the party. Then also there were others who sought the sport and the camaraderie of young men and were not so politically interested. The reasons were very diverse. members carefully investigated, and was the old prerequisite for acceptance, which was loyalty and decency, later on maintain* and increased?
A Yes. In March 1934, Himmler requested an investigation of all SS members who in 1933 had become members, a very thorough re-examination; and this went on until 1935. At that time fifty to sixty thousand members throughout the Reich were released from the SS. to be admitted as a member of the general SS?
A No. I said so already. It was in no way necessary.
the SS, as the Prosecution suggests, was the heart of the Nazi regime, an organization because of its attitude to life, was organized in such a way that one could conclude that at the time of admission the strictest formulas and requirements would be applied? party in itself, that is to say the Hoheitstraeger. The Hoheitstraeger were the leading men, a privilege which they maintained until the end. That was the heart of the regime. There were certain requirements for admission into the SS.
Q But what were the requirements of selection? and also of a personal nature and they led a respectable life, that they should not be people without occupations and who did not want to work. These were the principles involved in the selection.
Q How about the unemployment situation? racial prerequisites, build, that is to say they had to show what their origin was and so forth? basis but rather on other circumstances which you have described? largest Oberabschnitt of the General SS, did you know of any actions taken against Jews? of the so-called boycott of Jews in 1933 and 1934. Did you not, together with your men, participate in this at that time? against the Jews. In Dresden, when I heard about these matters I sent out a memorandum to my men and forbade them from participating.
the Jewish population in public life and the economy to ten per cent, which was the proportion they held to the population, that this was a crime against humanity? was your aim, did you want to reach it by force?
A No, under no circumstances. The SS had no influence, moreover, on these matters. party's program through individual actions and were strictly instructed in this matter? individual action was forbidden. For instance, we had a very strict law whereby we were not to carry on any activity whereby the political activities of the party might be endangered, as for instance if the police had found arms on us. Even later Hitler always forbade any action to be taken of an individual nature. in accord with your ideology, did you believe that thereby you were preparing a new war and thus, by a planned war, any opposition inside Germany would be impossible?
AAccording to my opinion I cannot understand that. The SS, after the announcement of the Nurnberg laws in 1935, were completely surprised as we thought the Jewish problem had been solved by the state. I remember too, that at that time Hitler had warned very strongly that one should not go beyond these laws and pointed out the great responsibility which rested in the hands of the German people. aggression if the party or state excluded Communists or Socialists from public life?
Q Did you have any such considerations at all?
A No. There seems to be a confusion. The circumstances were such that these matters never entered our mind.
Q What preparations did you notice in the SS for a war of aggression?
Q Was the General SS educated militarily? shooting and other such exercises, which cannot be considered military training. May I also point out that Himmler said to me and to other SS Fuehrers that armament training was forbidden not in the Wehrmacht after 1935 and from that it seems obvious that no military training tasks were given to the SS or planned for it. Every SS member, as any other German, had to get military training inside the Wehrmacht and not in the SS.
"The General SS is entirely a professional organization." and the German Police.
"Between the ages of 21 and 35 the greatest duties are imposed upon the man, especially up to the age of 25. In these first four years he must march and take part in competitive sports of all sorts and then the SS man up to the age of fifty will have to pass annual examinations. Why is this? The men are very active in their professions and one half to three-fifths are city dwellers. Their work in the cities is generally of a sedentary nature, and, in addition to that, there are the bad social conditions in the great cities and from the military point of view this is a grave problem.
"Men of the twentieth century no longer walk. They travel with the subway and so on."
I quote again:
"If we want to remain young we must participate in sport. But all this remains on paper if every year the men are not tested and also made proud of themselves so that they really participate in sport." 1933 this was the typical activity of the SS?
at gatherings and also at the Reichstag or in newspapers which contained promises of lasting peace and praise of it, yes even a horror of and fear of the ghastliness of war? Reichparteitag and traffic and so forth, were all these tasks of the SS? maintain order. In addition to the maintenance of order, they had to accompany honorary guests and also take care of them. Those were always difficult and tiring days for the men, who also had to participate in the parade when the parade marched past.
Q Did you have to take care of the honorary guests?
A Yes. On Reichsparteitags I myself and other higher SS Fuehrers had the task of leading the SS. Personally, at one of the last Reichsparteitags I was in charge of the British ambassador.
Q Where were you on the 30 June, 1934? so-called Putsch? 1934, I was ordered to Berlin by Himmler and he announced officially to me that Roehm was planning a Putsch and he also gave me instructions to hold my SS men in readiness and to bring them together in a barracks and also to give them instructions in case of something happening and so I had this information before it occurred.
Q Did the General SS take part in any killings on the 30 June, 1934? What do you know about it from your activities at that time?
A The General SS did not participate in any killings. It remained in barracks throughout the entire event.
in spite of everything?
A Yes. In the course of the day of the 30 June SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Beutel came to me for security services and he had an order from Heydrich. He was a younger man, this Beutel, and he did not know what he had to do and he came to me in order to obtain advice from me, an older man. He had the order in which there were approximately 28 names and in addition to that it seemed that some of these men were to be arrested and the others were to be executed. This written order had no signature on it and I advised this Obersturmbannfuehrer to get clarification as to what should take place and I warned him against any immediate action. Then, as far as I know, a courier was sent to Berlin and this courier then brought eight orders of execution back and these were from Heydrich.
It was an order of the Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor. Then followed the name of the man to be executed, so and so for high treason condemned to death, and these documents were signed by Heydrich. The signature was, however, not genuine but was stamped, just a stamp of Heydrich's name. too, in Dresden were shot by the political police of Saxony.
In addition to that, in Plauen a Hitler Jugend Leader was also shot and another person, too, in Kemnitz. That is what I know about it, at least about my area.
Q. Did you have anything to do with these shootings as Fuehrer of the Allegemeine SS (General SS)?
A. No, I had nothing to do with it. These orders coming from the State were taken to the political police and we could neither facilitate nor hinder them.
Q. Did you believe that Roehm really had treasonable intents and that the danger of the German government and the German nation was so immediate that only immediate action; that is to say, the shooting of those guilty could save the situation?
A. I really believed in an emergency and felt that because the highest German police authority; namely, Himmler, himself, had said so, it must be true; and moreover, on account of the state of alarm and with my cooperation with the Wehrkreis Befehlshaber, I was in a position which was very important.
Q. Do you remember that immediately after these events, the press had two telegrams of Reichspresident von Hindenburg and published them and one of them was to the Fuehrer, of June 2, 1934; and the other one to Goering of the 2nd June 1934. I quote SS document 74, which will later be handed in. Telegram of Hindenburg to Hitler: "From the reports which had been brought to me, I see that by your decisive action and by your personal activity you have nipped in the bud all these treasonable activities. You saved the German people from a grave danger. For this, I express to you my deeply-felt gratitude and respect. With the best greetings, von Hindenburg."
The telegram from von Hindenburg to Goering: "For your energetic and successful activity in the destruction of this treasonable organization, I express to you my gratitude and respect." Did you read these telegrams at the time in the press?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the speech which Hitler made before the German Reichstag on June 13, 1934, in which he also said how apparently an immediate danger had been hovering over Germany?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember this -- and I will quote only a very brief extract from SS document 105.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, don't you think that you can summarize this rather more? This witness has said that so far as his district is concerned, the SS had nothing to do with the Roehm and it doesn't seem to be necessary to put all the details of it to him.
DR. PELCKMANN: I believe that I have only to add one point to the Roehm putsch but perhaps already it has been pointed out that there could be no suspicion that an unjust activity was the case.
THE PRESIDENT: You realize, don't you, as we have said over and over again, that we don't want to have the evidence given before the Commission reported before us. What we wish is to have a summary and only the most important points dealt with and any new points; and, of course, we wish to see the witnesses in order to see whether they are credible.
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, I will keep that in mind, your lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we better adjourn now.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: With reference to the applications by Dr. Siemers, both of those applications are rejected. Dr. Siemers, of course, may go and visit Vice Admiral Buerkner if he wishes to do so, but the particular application which he made in that respect is rejected and so is the other application which he made for certain documents which are in public libraries. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q One more question on the 30th of June. Witness, from Hitler's speech, do you recall that he said that some innocent persons had been killed and that he promised the judging of these cases in orderly court procedure? everywhere hear the opinion which you have testified to here today that a state of emergency had existed?
1938? General SS? head of the SS Oberabschnitt Sued, Chief Section South. In addition I was Police President of Munich. gainst Jewish businesses during this night ? company Hitler to the meeting of the old fighters in the old City Hall, (Rathaus). There Hitler was told that the legation counsellor von Rath had died of his injuries. Hitler was deeply impressed and refused to speak. During this dinner he had a very serious discussion with Goebbels.
What was discussed I could not understand. Shortly thereafter Hitler drove to his home. I accompanied him there on my official duty. Following that I was made responsible for the security measures on the Odeon's Platz. Every year, from the 9th to the 10th of November, a meeting was held there to get new recruits for the Waffen SS. When I came to the Odeon's Platz Club it was reported to me that a synagogue was burning and that the fire department was being interfered with.
Munich Land who told me that the Jewish castle, Planeck, had been set on fire by an unknown person. The Gerndarmerin asked for assistance. This was about 2300 hours -- at 23-45. At 2400 hours Hitler came to the meeting. Since I could not leave my pose I sent the next Highest SS leader, Brigadefuehrer Diehm to the synagogue to create order there. In addition, I sent a raiding party of the police under an officer to Planeck in order to catch the person responsible and to help put out the fire. Higher SS Leaders, I was ordered to report to Himmler. There in the hotel, the Deputy Gauleiter Nippoll informed me that following Hitler's departure from the Rathouse, Goebbels had held an extravagant meeting of incitement against the Jews, and as a result, considerable excesses had occurred in the city. I immediately drove through the city in order to look over the situation. I saw shop windows which had been smashed, a few stores were bruning. I immediately took steps myself against this and then I put all available police on the streets with instructions to protect Jewish business establishments until further notice. Munich, I saw to it that the shop windows were nailed shut to prevent theft and so forth.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the witness is saying that he took every step to prevent these excesses. I don't think we sant the details. I don't think that we want to hear the details of the steps he took to prevent these things and to keep order. The Prosecution can cross-examine if they want to.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, is it not possible to have me submit to the witness just what he will be asked by the Prosecution? I consider it important.....
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has been telling us, for several minutes, what happened on the 9th and 10th of November, 1938, and we think we know enough. We know the general nature of what excesses took place and I don't want the details of it. If you think that he has not said that the SS did not partici pate in the excesses, you can ask him that question.
He says that he did not take part, but that he tried to stop it. I don't want to hear the details of how he tried to stop it. BY DR. PELCKMANN: cipate in the excesses and did the SS offices subordinate to you obey these orders?
A. I told Brigadefuehrer Diehm that I strictly prohibited any action and I threatened considerable punishment. We considered this action definitely indecent in the SS.
Q. Do you know, witness, that an Adjutant Schallermeier, on the night before the 10th of November, took dictation from Himmler, approximately to the effect that he disliked the whole action of Goebbels propaganda and that Himmler had said the SS was to keep out of this action?
A. I don't know this document.
Q. I refer to the affidavit, SS number 5, which will be discussed later. You said, witness, that this whole action was prohibited by the leaders and the members of the SS. Is this because of the basic attitude of the SS in the Jewish question or do you consider that it was a variation that you yourself heard from some other source that it was a variation that you yourself heard from some other source that it would be too bad for the values of German national property to be destroyed?
A. I can only say that the SS. just like the Party, was anti-Semitic, but quite aside from any material reasons, we considered this indecent and the SS did not participate in it.
Q. One more question. On the preparation for wars of aggression, do you know whether the general SS made preparations for the entry into Austria and whether it participated in it?
A. No, the general SS did not participate in it. My Oberabschnitt covered the whole German-Austrian border. I would positively have had to know about it.