Q Why did they wear the SD sign?
DR. GAWLIK: I have no more questions. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Have you got this document before you, 3867-PS?
A 3867-PS?
Q Yes. You see what it says there. " I herewith enclose the 9th summary report concerning activities of the Einsatzgruppe of the Security Police and the SD in the USSR." That is the second paragraph, you see that--describing the report?
A In my copy there are several documents. Is it the one of the 27th February, please?
Q 27 February 1942, page 17. Have you got it?
Q First of all you see "regarding report No. 9 concerning the activity of the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and the SD in the USSR". And then the first enclosure. Heydrich encloses the 9th summary report concerning the activity of the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and the SD in the USSR. understand why the SD were there because the Einsatzgruppen had the numerals A, B, C, and D?
Q That's what you meant, wasn't it, that you could not explain why the SD was there? out it is to be distributed to the chiefs of the Einsatzgruppen A, B, C, and D, and also to the commanders of the Security 1 Aug A LJG 22-2a Police and the SD?
report? If Einsatzgroups and Einsatzcommand of Security Police and SD are mentioned, then that expression is not correct, because that expression did not exist. There were only Einsatz Groups A, B, C, and D and Einsatz numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on. be sent to the commanders of the Einsatz Groups in separate distribution to then as well as to the chiefs of the Einsatz Groups unless the SD has something to do with it?
A I believe I may have been misunderstood. It is a report about the activities of the Einsatz Groups which had been summarized by the chiefs of the Security Police and SD and which had been sent to the individual Einsatz Groups so that they could explain what happened in the field of the Einsatz Groups A, B, C, and D.
Q Yes, it isn't only sent to the Einsatzgruppen A, B, C and D;
it is also sent to the commanders of the Secret Police and SD. What I am asking you is: Why is it sent to the commanders of the Security Police and the SD if they had nothing to do with it? Police and SD in Cracow and Higher SS and Police Leaders should be informed about the work of these Einsatz Groups, because it was also sent to the Higher SS and Police Leader in Breslau and one in Dresden, who certainly had nothing to do with the activity of the Einsatz Groups -- to the Reich defense Commissioners in Dresden and Breslau. he described it as the activity of the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and the SD and when they sent out and distributed it to the commanders of the Security Police and SD, it was merely a matter of information; is that it? the distribution of a different report; it is a report on the 23rd of April 1942.
Q And will you lock at page 46 and 47? General Kaltenbrunner, Vienna. Reich Minister Dr. Frank.
A I cannot find Reich Minister Dr. Frick.
A Yes; to attention on the **erregierungsrat Dr. Shepers. February 1942. same people?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 2 August 1946, at 1000 hours) Official Transcript of the International Military BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. Witness, I request that you explain some of the testimony which you gave yesterday. Please give me very brief answers. First, you told yesterday that SD had no relationships whatever toward working out the plans of aggression and was not even aware of such plans. You further stated that the SD since 1934 and up to 1939, in other words during the period of the organization of the plans, was engaged in activities which were very far from carrying out any police functions and actually had the nature of a scientific and research organization, is that correct?
A. I didn't say that.
Q. No, I said scientific and research character.
A. I explained that the SD participated in tasks, for instance, tasks concerning the work of ascertaining the state of living in Germany and also statistical tasks.
Q. You further stated that the SD had no relations whatsoever towards crimes against peace and crimes against humanity, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. President, I would like the permission of the Tribunal to submit the original of a German document from the Archives of the Central SD, which is a document captured by the Red Army in the Berlin District and refers to the invasion of Czechoslovakia.
Will you kindly follow me, Mr. Witness, while I quote from the document in the Russian translation?
"Communication. June 1938. Berlin. Secret. Subject: Deployment of SD in Czechoslovakia." Text follows:
"The SD should prepare to start its activity in case the German Reich and Czechoslovakia become united. The manifold planning and the preparation of the operational staff for mobilization should be effected on the basis of approval...."
THE PRESIDENT: You read out a date of June, 1938. I can't see that at the head of the document.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: June, 1938, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't appear at the head of the document. Does it appear somewhere else?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Your translation probably does not have it, Mr. President. The original has it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. Chairman, we submitted copies of two different documents and I am afraid the mistake might have been caused by the fact that your translation is not the translation of the document which I am submitting right now. We submitted copies of two different documents, two different translations.
THE PRESIDENT: It is an entirely different document or else some parts are omitted. The date is not on the document. Go on. Go on. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. "Dividing functions, the SD follows wherever possible directly behind the advancing troops and takes upon themselves duties similar to their duties in the Reich which are the security of the political life, and at the same time, the security of all enterprises for peoples' economy and war economy. In order to achieve this purpose, we suggest the distribution of this country in temporary Oberabschnitt and Unterabschnitt. The latter have to be sub-divided in Aussenstellen in order to assign the SS members immediately to their task". ing out the plans of aggression and was meant to take part in it. I am asking you, Mr. Witness, this excerpt shows that SD was not only aware of the plans of invasion and aggression, but also, that it took an active part in working out the plans?
A. May I first say something defending the document?
Q. I would like you to answer briefly, first. Answer yes or no. Explain later, please.
A. From the document, it is obvious that it is only concerning ....
Q. We will talk about that a little later. You will see, then, what the main point is. Refer to the excerpt which I read. Do you not see evidence there that SD was both informed and took an active part in the plans of aggression?
A. I said yesterday that the interior and foreign information services..
THE PRESIDENT: We do not care what you said yesterday. We want to get your answer today. You were asked a question which can be answered by yes or no. You can explain afterwards.
A. The document has nothing to do with the interior information service.
Q. In that case, I would like you to look on page 3 of the document. You testified yesterday that SD had no connection, whatever, to some of the points I am going to bring to your attention here. I am going to read an excerpt here. It is Item 2. Please pay attention to what I am reading now.
THE PRESIDENT: It is being role too fast. The translators do not have time to translate it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. The excerpt that was just read does not mention that SD made demands and that the plans were made in terms of fulfilling those demands, and that planning and staffing of the general staffs was going to take place in terms of the demands ?
A. Excuse me. It was apparently translated incorrectly. Your question does not make sense to me.
Q. It seems to me the question is quite clear. It must be in terms of demand.
Please look at the text of the document.
A. In my text there is absolutely nothing concerning this.
Q. 202(a), Page 3 ?
THE PRESIDENT: To which words are you referring now?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I am referring to Section 2, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: You must go slowly. You simply say Page 3. It happens not to be on Page 3, on our Page 3. It is on Page 2. How do you expect us to find it when you refer to it that way?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is Section 2, Mr. President. There is Roman Numeral II in front of the section. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. What answer will you give then, Mr. Witness? What answer will you rive me with regard to manning the staffs of the planning agencies of SD?
A. From the paragraph, it can only be that the SD has requested it should be prepared for it, but not that they should plan anything.
Q. In that case, I should like to ask you to turn to Section 3.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, please torn to Section 3. It is Page 4 of the Russian text. I refer to Roman III, Item 1. Then refer to the next page of the Russian text which follows right after the list of cities. It is page four of the English Text. "As soon as any district is free from the enemy, that is unoccupied, the allocated groups are immediately sent to the district Administration following the advancing troops. At the same time, the groups which are intended for the next district follow, too, in order to get used to the situation there". the agency?
A. From this document it can only be seen that the head office of these groups has been organized.
Q. If this does not convince you, then I would like you to turn.....
THE PRESIDENT: You must go more slowly. We will not hear what the witness says if you interrupt him during the time it take for the translation to come through. It is impossible for us to understand if you interrupt.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I beg your pardon, Mr. President, I stated that if this does not concern the witness, that was precisely that the SD helped to staff these operational groups.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Then the witness said something about Einsatzgruppe. What did you say about Einsatzgruppes?
THE WITNESS: The question was whether I an now convinced that the Einsatzgruppes were being prepared beforehand, and I answered that -
THE PRESIDENT: No, you were not asked about Einsatzgruppes at all. You were asked about the SD.
THE WITNESS: I was asked whether the SD was preparing the Einsatzgruppe beforehand, and I said that from the document, the SD had prepared a head office of these groups. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Please look at Paragraph V -- Section V -- entitled "Preparatory Measures". Page 5 of the English text.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I want to quote Section V, "Preparatory Measures".
"Preparatory Measures; Demarcation of Districts of the SD and of the Gestapo: (a) in Germany (b) in occupied territory.
"Suggestion: Measures in Germany are carried out under the guidance of the Gestapo and with the assistance of the SD. Measures in the occupied regions are carried out under the leadership of the senior officer of the SD. Gestapo officials are assigned to certain operations staffs. It is important that so far as possible similar preparations, training and the use of materials should be conducted in the Gestapo as in the SD." BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: took the leading part in preparing these plans, and that its activity consisted of this type of criminal activity?
AAbout criminal activity I read nothing here. As for the questions concerning the SD, I would like to answer the first question that it had nothing to do with the domestic information service.
THE PRESIDENT: The man had not yet finished his answer. We do not know what his answer is. Now repeat your answer.
THE WITNESS: I said that I read nothing about criminal measures in the document, and I said previously that the document had nothing to do with domestic information services. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q It says there SD. Can you argue about the term used by the document? Can you deny that?
A The word "SD" means many things. precisely the sense in which the authorities in Germany had used the term. The German officials understood the terms they used, did they not? Number 2, entitled, "Establishment of Files in Section III, 225 of the Central Administration of the SD:
"(a) Collecting and utilization of all available materials of the SD Oberabschnitt is concentrated in Section III, 225.
"(b) In establishing duplicate local files for each region, one copy remains with central departments, and the second is sent to the operations staff appointed to definite regions." Item (c):
"Files must have notations such as these: 'to arrest', 'to liquidate', 'to remove from work', 'to place under observation', 'to confiscate', 'police surveillance', 'deprivation of passport'." like these on the cards of specific persons, such as to liquidate, to arrest, that the SD was participating in crimes against humanity?
there was any liaison or relationship between the SD and the SS units? the last paragraph, Number VII:
"It is necessary to establish liaison with some SS units or with special operational units." between the SD and the SS units in organizing their mutual activity?
Q In that case, how should I interpret the sentence which I just read? Einsatzgruppe comes to its operational activity, a troop of the SS should be present there whenever they march into a civilian territory and that there should be some connection between military units and a civilian unit, but I should also like to repeat that this document shows only that it is a draft project of a head of a department who had a responsibility beyond being the head of that department, and the mark on the document shows that it is a draft of an assistant to the head of the department and that it was never okayed by the head of the department or the head of a division, or the head of an office. you is merely a plan? III, 225, and the head of Department III, 225 did not okay it, and the head of Division III has also not okayed it
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, to show that the witness' testimony is not correct, I would like you to turn to a document signed by Schellenberge. Chief of the Central Division 11 and to the chart which you will find in the original. It shows that even the chiefs of the SS commands were appointed -
THE PRESIDENT: Just wait a minute. place you had got to in paragraph V, so that the document may be translated and translated now at once. You had got just to the place where it speaks of files, and at the end of "Files", paragraph 2 -
COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. Do you want me to start reading from point (b) or from point (c)?
THE PRESIDENT: Point 3.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes. "Establishing of duplicate local rifles for each region --"
TIE PRESIDENT: That is not what I meant. You had read Paragraph V. Roman V, down to the end of (2), the last words of which are "-- deprived of passports." The next paragraph is (3), small (3), Arabic (3) -- "It is imperative -- ".
COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: We want the whole of the document from there.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.
"It is imperative to speed up the obtaining of necessary economic a political materials and to obtain these as quickly as possible, such as maps, dictionaries, stationery, and office materials.
5. Allocated members and agents of SD have to undergo a training course in order to get acquainted with the galguage and with the general conditions of life in Czecho-Slovakia. However, it might be advisable to train only persons appointed for the subsections for leaders of the foreign branches and manager of enterprises in order not to increase the number of persons who are acquainted with the matter.
6. Release from military conscription of the appointed persons.
7. Elaboration of plans, (a) for serving out the tasks mentioned in paragraph III; (b) for notification before the attack in due time, of the persons mentioned in paragraphs III 5,2, 1, b and II c in order to give them the possibility to hide themselves to avoid arrest and deportation and to enable them to fulfil their missions.
8. Providing an opportune time and necessary passes for entering zones of operation in order to secure a free passage. Living, and working accommodation.
Shall I read Paragraph VI, Section 6, Mr. President ?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
COL. SMIRNOV: VI. Miscellaneous. Only educated persons are supposed to be employed , as far as possible, as : 1. At the beginning we should count only or primarly on guerilla and partisan warfare; 2. for that reason the weapons which are necessary will be carbines, pistols, hand grenades, anti gasmasks, and if possible sub machine guns; 3. relations in the zone of military operation demand appropriate conduct. VII -
THE PRESIDENT : You have read VII already. You better go back now to III
COL. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. Training of special agents (beforehand) from (mentioned in Item 21) persons of German extraction living in Czecho-Slovakia who are to take over the duties of secretaries of the most important enterprises for the purpose of reventing sabotage on the part of the Czech organizations.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we better go back to II, paragraph 2a, training of suitable persons.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you were reading II, paragraph 2a, beginning with the words, "Training of suitable persons", were you not ?
COL. SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. May I continue ?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
COL. SMIRNOV: Besides-- interpreting verbatim from the Russian text-- besides staff members of the SD we should also try to employ specialists, because German agencies should not be deprived of proper personnel, and special regions, outside regions, should take similar measures to attract specialists and suitable persons to their staffs.
b. Training of specialists of the above mentioned branches, and especially of groups of specialists for speedy technical help for further allocation at such vital branches of production as supply of gas, water, and electricity, and for their quick restoration in case they are destroyed.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think you need read that. I think you should have the original document retranslated.
COL. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, we shall do it today.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal directs that the original German document shall be retranslated into the other languages, namely, into English into French, into Russian.
CO. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Now will you turn to the document which follows the document you have been reading and which appears to be some sort of letter from an Oborfuehrer of the SS. It is addressed to Dr. Best.
COL. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. Shall I read the whole document or just the first paragraph ?
THE PRESIDENT: You better read the first paragraph, anyhow.
COL. SMIRNOV: 2253 to SS Fuhrer Dr. Best, Berlin. To SS Oberfuehrer, Dr. Best, Berlin. The contents follows : Introduction of the Einsatz of Gestapo and of the SD RFSS on the territory of CzechoSlovakia. Text: The deployment of Gestapo and SD as indicated and suggestion and foreseeing of twelve detachments along the entire border of Czecho-Slovakia will be subject to some modification as a result of the new situation which permits the concession by the Czechs of the Sudetan territory, since some of the detachments will not be able to yet into the district which will become German.
For that reason we offer the following changes.
Shall I continue the quotation, Mr. President ?
THE PRESIDENT: You don't need to read the rest. But is that document dated ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: No, Mr. President, there is no date on 2 Aug M LJG 5-1 the document.
THE PRESIDENT: What you stated there did not come through.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: There is no date here, but there is another date on another document, which I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit. The document which is addressed to Dr. Best has no date, but the next document has a date, and it is the following document that I consider extremely important. I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit it. It is a very short document, signed by Sternberg.
"Berlin, 18 September, 1938, Office 1113, Headquarters, to the Departmental Chiefs, III, SS Oberfuehrer Yost, or his deputy.
"Contents: Organizational Chart of the Einsatzkommandos, Operational Command". Omitting the next sentence, "According to the regulations of the above mentioned letter, I enclose herewith a photo static copy of the Einsatzkommandos Organizational Chart.
The Chart has been prepared by Department C according to the onclosed form".
(Signed) The Chiefs of the Central Department, 11 Hauptsturmfuehrer Sternberg" .Mr. President, I should like you at this point to look at the chart which is attached, and which at that time already reproduced very correctly the organization of the Einsatzkommandos.
You have all the details of the organization there showing 11 different units. Among these who are the leading collaborators of the Central Headquarters, in the second column, you can find that at that time already there was included the chief of the gas chambers to be put into effect later, the man to whom later all the reports with regard to the activity of the gas chambers and the special death wagons, motor cars, that killed people, who were gassed.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not see that on the chart.
2 Aug M LJG 5-2
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It Is in the second column.
THE PRESIDENT: Show me where. Where is it?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: (Indicates)
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But can't you show no where it is?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. There it is. (Indicating) (A document was handed to the President)
THE PRESIDENT: But Colonel Smirnov, there must be some words on the document which indicate what you are saying.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I thought, Mr. President, that what happened was explained by the inaccuracies of the translation; that is, by misunderstandings here. You see, the member was a Mr. Rolf, the non who was mentioned there, to whom the reports about gas chambers and other methods of killing people who were gassed were discussed. And there he is. That post had been prepared and foreseen in that chart.
THE PRESIDENT: What is his name?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Rolf, Mr. President. As early as 1939 we see his name and the post which he was to occupy. This is why I want to draw your attention to that.
May I continue the interrogation?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, the Tribunal would like to have photostatic copies of this document.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President; we have ten copies.
THE PRESIDENT: We anticipate that you are going to give the document to the witness and examine him upon it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. The witness has it before him already.
THE WITNESS: Yes; I have a photostatic copy here.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr., President, I should like to ask the witness the following question: BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Mr. Witness, tell me this. Did not the leading personnages of the SD and the staff of the SD make and keep a list of persons who were intended to be annihilated, or exhausted by labor?
A Is the question being asked with reference to this 2 Aug M LJG 5-3 document?
knowledge of the situation.
colonel smirnov; Mr. President, I am asking your permission to submit -
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has not answered.
Will you answer the question?
THE WITNESS: I SAID THAT I did not know whether such lists were made.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I request your permission to submit the second German document which relates not to the -
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, we wanted you to ask the witness some questions so as to explain the chart. We have only just seen the chart. Have you no questions to ask on the chart?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, I will ask these questions. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Do you have the chart before you, witness?
(A document was handed to the witness. ) BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: orators mentioned in the chart?
Q Who was Jost? Information Service, and he had been in Division VI of the Foreign Information Service.
Q Anyway, in 1939 he was a member of the SD? and was head of the Central Department III of the Central SD.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you told us that the SS has got 2 Aug M LJG 5-4 no connection with the SD.
You are now telling us that this man was head of the SS Department, SD, are you not?
THE WITNESS: There must have been a false interpretation. May I repeat my answer?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, repeat your answer.
THE WITNESS: Jost was the head of Central Department III, Foreign Information Service, in the former SD head office. He was later the First Division Head of Office VI of the Foreign Information Service, and he was there before Sternberg, who was also heard by this Tribunal. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Are you acquainted with the name of Erlinger?
Q Who was he?
A I know Erlinger first from a later period. He was the last No. I Division Head of the Reichsicherheitshauptamt.
Q He was also a member of the Sd, was he not?
Q Do you knew the name of Rolf? Do you recognize that?
THE PRESIDENT: The translation came through to us that he was a member of the SS-SD.
THE WITNESS: He belonged to the SS Special SD Formation, about which we spoke in detail yesterday; that is to say, the merger of SS members who were in the Sicherheitspolizei, and of Gestapo and criminal police members; that is to say, not all members of these, but only those who belonged to the SS, and also those who were official workers with the SS, and also some other officers who worked with the Sicherheitspolizei -- for instance, Henschutz, a witness, and later several others.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Do you know the name of Rolf?
A Yes.
2 Aug M LJG 5-5
Q What was he at that time? the Sicherheitspolizei, as far as I remember today. I should like to say that at that time I had no connection with the Central Office in Berlin, and according to the organization of the Hauptamt of the SD at that time, there was between the lower divisions and the Head Office an organizational set up which was abolished in September, 1939.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, the American Prosecution kindly gave me the text of a document already submitted to the Tribunal which shows that reports on the killings were addressed specifically to Mr. Rolf. These are the documents which I am now passing on to the Tribunal. These documents have been submitted already. I am merely showing them here right now as a reminder. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q And now, Mr. Witness, I should also like you to look at the circle showing ''Einsatzkommando" in the chart. Do you recognize the names mentioned there? 2, 3, 8, 9, and others. Have you found the place?
A Is that another document?
Q No; that is precisely the same document. no such circles. It must be another document.
Q Please look at the circles around " Einsatzkommando". Do you recognize any of the names within those circles? by Obersturmfuehrer Seitl.
Q Do you recognize the names there? Specifically, do you know Gottschalk?