there was any liaison or relationship between the SD and the SS units? the last paragraph, Number VII:
"It is necessary to establish liaison with some SS units or with special operational units." between the SD and the SS units in organizing their mutual activity?
Q In that case, how should I interpret the sentence which I just read? Einsatzgruppe comes to its operational activity, a troop of the SS should be present there whenever they march into a civilian territory and that there should be some connection between military units and a civilian unit, but I should also like to repeat that this document shows only that it is a draft project of a head of a department who had a responsibility beyond being the head of that department, and the mark on the document shows that it is a draft of an assistant to the head of the department and that it was never okayed by the head of the department or the head of a division, or the head of an office. you is merely a plan? III, 225, and the head of Department III, 225 did not okay it, and the head of Division III has also not okayed it
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, to show that the witness' testimony is not correct, I would like you to turn to a document signed by Schellenberge. Chief of the Central Division 11 and to the chart which you will find in the original. It shows that even the chiefs of the SS commands were appointed -
THE PRESIDENT: Just wait a minute. place you had got to in paragraph V, so that the document may be translated and translated now at once. You had got just to the place where it speaks of files, and at the end of "Files", paragraph 2 -
COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. Do you want me to start reading from point (b) or from point (c)?
THE PRESIDENT: Point 3.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes. "Establishing of duplicate local rifles for each region --"
TIE PRESIDENT: That is not what I meant. You had read Paragraph V. Roman V, down to the end of (2), the last words of which are "-- deprived of passports." The next paragraph is (3), small (3), Arabic (3) -- "It is imperative -- ".
COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: We want the whole of the document from there.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.
"It is imperative to speed up the obtaining of necessary economic a political materials and to obtain these as quickly as possible, such as maps, dictionaries, stationery, and office materials.
5. Allocated members and agents of SD have to undergo a training course in order to get acquainted with the galguage and with the general conditions of life in Czecho-Slovakia. However, it might be advisable to train only persons appointed for the subsections for leaders of the foreign branches and manager of enterprises in order not to increase the number of persons who are acquainted with the matter.
6. Release from military conscription of the appointed persons.
7. Elaboration of plans, (a) for serving out the tasks mentioned in paragraph III; (b) for notification before the attack in due time, of the persons mentioned in paragraphs III 5,2, 1, b and II c in order to give them the possibility to hide themselves to avoid arrest and deportation and to enable them to fulfil their missions.
8. Providing an opportune time and necessary passes for entering zones of operation in order to secure a free passage. Living, and working accommodation.
Shall I read Paragraph VI, Section 6, Mr. President ?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
COL. SMIRNOV: VI. Miscellaneous. Only educated persons are supposed to be employed , as far as possible, as : 1. At the beginning we should count only or primarly on guerilla and partisan warfare; 2. for that reason the weapons which are necessary will be carbines, pistols, hand grenades, anti gasmasks, and if possible sub machine guns; 3. relations in the zone of military operation demand appropriate conduct. VII -
THE PRESIDENT : You have read VII already. You better go back now to III
COL. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. Training of special agents (beforehand) from (mentioned in Item 21) persons of German extraction living in Czecho-Slovakia who are to take over the duties of secretaries of the most important enterprises for the purpose of reventing sabotage on the part of the Czech organizations.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we better go back to II, paragraph 2a, training of suitable persons.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, you were reading II, paragraph 2a, beginning with the words, "Training of suitable persons", were you not ?
COL. SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. May I continue ?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
COL. SMIRNOV: Besides-- interpreting verbatim from the Russian text-- besides staff members of the SD we should also try to employ specialists, because German agencies should not be deprived of proper personnel, and special regions, outside regions, should take similar measures to attract specialists and suitable persons to their staffs.
b. Training of specialists of the above mentioned branches, and especially of groups of specialists for speedy technical help for further allocation at such vital branches of production as supply of gas, water, and electricity, and for their quick restoration in case they are destroyed.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think you need read that. I think you should have the original document retranslated.
COL. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, we shall do it today.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal directs that the original German document shall be retranslated into the other languages, namely, into English into French, into Russian.
CO. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Now will you turn to the document which follows the document you have been reading and which appears to be some sort of letter from an Oborfuehrer of the SS. It is addressed to Dr. Best.
COL. SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. Shall I read the whole document or just the first paragraph ?
THE PRESIDENT: You better read the first paragraph, anyhow.
COL. SMIRNOV: 2253 to SS Fuhrer Dr. Best, Berlin. To SS Oberfuehrer, Dr. Best, Berlin. The contents follows : Introduction of the Einsatz of Gestapo and of the SD RFSS on the territory of CzechoSlovakia. Text: The deployment of Gestapo and SD as indicated and suggestion and foreseeing of twelve detachments along the entire border of Czecho-Slovakia will be subject to some modification as a result of the new situation which permits the concession by the Czechs of the Sudetan territory, since some of the detachments will not be able to yet into the district which will become German.
For that reason we offer the following changes.
Shall I continue the quotation, Mr. President ?
THE PRESIDENT: You don't need to read the rest. But is that document dated ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: No, Mr. President, there is no date on 2 Aug M LJG 5-1 the document.
THE PRESIDENT: What you stated there did not come through.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: There is no date here, but there is another date on another document, which I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit. The document which is addressed to Dr. Best has no date, but the next document has a date, and it is the following document that I consider extremely important. I would like the Tribunal's permission to submit it. It is a very short document, signed by Sternberg.
"Berlin, 18 September, 1938, Office 1113, Headquarters, to the Departmental Chiefs, III, SS Oberfuehrer Yost, or his deputy.
"Contents: Organizational Chart of the Einsatzkommandos, Operational Command". Omitting the next sentence, "According to the regulations of the above mentioned letter, I enclose herewith a photo static copy of the Einsatzkommandos Organizational Chart.
The Chart has been prepared by Department C according to the onclosed form".
(Signed) The Chiefs of the Central Department, 11 Hauptsturmfuehrer Sternberg" .Mr. President, I should like you at this point to look at the chart which is attached, and which at that time already reproduced very correctly the organization of the Einsatzkommandos.
You have all the details of the organization there showing 11 different units. Among these who are the leading collaborators of the Central Headquarters, in the second column, you can find that at that time already there was included the chief of the gas chambers to be put into effect later, the man to whom later all the reports with regard to the activity of the gas chambers and the special death wagons, motor cars, that killed people, who were gassed.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not see that on the chart.
2 Aug M LJG 5-2
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It Is in the second column.
THE PRESIDENT: Show me where. Where is it?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: (Indicates)
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But can't you show no where it is?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. There it is. (Indicating) (A document was handed to the President)
THE PRESIDENT: But Colonel Smirnov, there must be some words on the document which indicate what you are saying.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I thought, Mr. President, that what happened was explained by the inaccuracies of the translation; that is, by misunderstandings here. You see, the member was a Mr. Rolf, the non who was mentioned there, to whom the reports about gas chambers and other methods of killing people who were gassed were discussed. And there he is. That post had been prepared and foreseen in that chart.
THE PRESIDENT: What is his name?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Rolf, Mr. President. As early as 1939 we see his name and the post which he was to occupy. This is why I want to draw your attention to that.
May I continue the interrogation?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, the Tribunal would like to have photostatic copies of this document.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President; we have ten copies.
THE PRESIDENT: We anticipate that you are going to give the document to the witness and examine him upon it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. The witness has it before him already.
THE WITNESS: Yes; I have a photostatic copy here.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr., President, I should like to ask the witness the following question: BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Mr. Witness, tell me this. Did not the leading personnages of the SD and the staff of the SD make and keep a list of persons who were intended to be annihilated, or exhausted by labor?
A Is the question being asked with reference to this 2 Aug M LJG 5-3 document?
knowledge of the situation.
colonel smirnov; Mr. President, I am asking your permission to submit -
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has not answered.
Will you answer the question?
THE WITNESS: I SAID THAT I did not know whether such lists were made.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I request your permission to submit the second German document which relates not to the -
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, we wanted you to ask the witness some questions so as to explain the chart. We have only just seen the chart. Have you no questions to ask on the chart?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, I will ask these questions. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Do you have the chart before you, witness?
(A document was handed to the witness. ) BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: orators mentioned in the chart?
Q Who was Jost? Information Service, and he had been in Division VI of the Foreign Information Service.
Q Anyway, in 1939 he was a member of the SD? and was head of the Central Department III of the Central SD.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you told us that the SS has got 2 Aug M LJG 5-4 no connection with the SD.
You are now telling us that this man was head of the SS Department, SD, are you not?
THE WITNESS: There must have been a false interpretation. May I repeat my answer?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, repeat your answer.
THE WITNESS: Jost was the head of Central Department III, Foreign Information Service, in the former SD head office. He was later the First Division Head of Office VI of the Foreign Information Service, and he was there before Sternberg, who was also heard by this Tribunal. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Are you acquainted with the name of Erlinger?
Q Who was he?
A I know Erlinger first from a later period. He was the last No. I Division Head of the Reichsicherheitshauptamt.
Q He was also a member of the Sd, was he not?
Q Do you knew the name of Rolf? Do you recognize that?
THE PRESIDENT: The translation came through to us that he was a member of the SS-SD.
THE WITNESS: He belonged to the SS Special SD Formation, about which we spoke in detail yesterday; that is to say, the merger of SS members who were in the Sicherheitspolizei, and of Gestapo and criminal police members; that is to say, not all members of these, but only those who belonged to the SS, and also those who were official workers with the SS, and also some other officers who worked with the Sicherheitspolizei -- for instance, Henschutz, a witness, and later several others.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Do you know the name of Rolf?
A Yes.
2 Aug M LJG 5-5
Q What was he at that time? the Sicherheitspolizei, as far as I remember today. I should like to say that at that time I had no connection with the Central Office in Berlin, and according to the organization of the Hauptamt of the SD at that time, there was between the lower divisions and the Head Office an organizational set up which was abolished in September, 1939.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, the American Prosecution kindly gave me the text of a document already submitted to the Tribunal which shows that reports on the killings were addressed specifically to Mr. Rolf. These are the documents which I am now passing on to the Tribunal. These documents have been submitted already. I am merely showing them here right now as a reminder. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q And now, Mr. Witness, I should also like you to look at the circle showing ''Einsatzkommando" in the chart. Do you recognize the names mentioned there? 2, 3, 8, 9, and others. Have you found the place?
A Is that another document?
Q No; that is precisely the same document. no such circles. It must be another document.
Q Please look at the circles around " Einsatzkommando". Do you recognize any of the names within those circles? by Obersturmfuehrer Seitl.
Q Do you recognize the names there? Specifically, do you know Gottschalk?
Q Dr. Lehmann?
2 Aug M LJG 5-6
Q Schultze? and it should be "Schultz".
Q That is right, "Schultz".
A Yes, I know. Here we have "Schultze."
Q That is a mistake. I have it as " Schultz."
Q Was he a staff member of the SD? where in Northern Germany.
Q Do you know Biermann? name.
Q Who was he?
A I beg your pardon? I think that he was then Stabsleiter Later he became Inspector of the Sicherheitspolizei.
Q Do you know Heinrich, Dr. Heinrich?
A I didn't know him. Was he Einsatz Commander 10?
A I didn't know him.
Q Hoffmann?
A I knew him by name but I didn't know him personally.
Q You are acquainted with the post he hold though? heit police, but I can't quite remember what he was, inspector in Berlin
Q Inspector of S.D.?
A There were no S.D. inspectors at that time; there were only inspectors of the Sicherheits police.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no more questions about the chart, Mr. President. May I ask some other questions?
THE PRESIDENT : These words "E.K." in the circle at the bottom mean Einsatzkommando I suppose, do they? And will you tell the Tribunal what the purpose of the chart is? What is the organization which it is supposed to define?
The translation didn't come through.
THE WITNESS : Could you repeat your question, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT : What is the organization which the chart is supposed to define?
THE WITNESS : I suppose that it is the preparation of some plan of Gruppenfuehrer Hoydrich which the offices of the Sicherheits police and the SD, which were beneath him. were preparing for some eventual development with Czechoclovakia, as it was at that time, and where the Einsats-kommandos could be used. Then actually, later, when the marching into Czechoslovakia occured, there were units of the Sicherheits police and of the SD which were called into Czechoslovakia the same time and which, just like the Einsatskommandos and the Eisatzgruppen in the east, were mobile units, units of a very special nature which had been newly set up and had entirely new tasks, and which later were dissolved as the State police office in Prague under the SD was organized.
THE PRESIDENT : Well, I am not concerned with whether they were later dissolved. Heydrick, I suppose, was in command of the whole of the SD, was he not?
THE WITNESS : Yes, Heydrich was head of the SD head office and at the same time head of the Sicherheits police, personally united in him.
THE PRESIDENT : Was Stahlecker a member of the Information Branch of the SD that you are speaking of?
THE WITNESS : I cannot state that in detail. If I remember correctly, Stahlecker had at that are some function in east Prussia.
THE PRUSSIA : You said it just now, I thought, that Stahlecker was in Berlin?
THE WITNESS : In East Prussia at that time. In opinion, Guenther was in Berlin. His name was also mentioned previously.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes. Well, was he a member of the SD Information Service?
THE WITNESS : Yes, I think that he was then head of the Berlin Oberabschnitt. I can not say it with certainty.
THE PRESIDENT : Was he also a member of the SD information Service?
THE WITNESS: I Don't know in what office Erlanger was then employed. I heard his name only later as head of Office I.
THE PRESIDENT : What about Rauf?
THE WITNESS : Rauf was then in charge of the transportation of the SD head office, but --
THE PRESIDENT : But the information service of the SD, was he a member? Was Rauf a member of the SD information services?
THE WITNESS : He was head of a technical department in the SD head office. In the SD head office at that time, which handled foreign information and domestic information, in central head office No. 1 he had a technical office
THE PRESIDENT : One of his functions was to work in the Information Service of the SD, in the domestic Information Service of the SR?
THE WITNESS : He had also the truck transportation for the domestic --
THE PRESIDENT : Yes, but you can answer the question yes or no. Was it part of his function to work in the domestic Information Service of the SD?
THE WITNESS: Well, he had no competence, as you call it, in the domestic Information Service of the SD?
THE WITNESS: As far as I can remember, he had only the truck transportation of the SD head office; also for the domestic Information Service.
THE PRESIDENT: Doesn't that chart show that the SD was working in close coordination with the Gestapo?
THE WITNESS: The chart shows, in my opinion, only that the head of the to organizations was preparing, in case of searching in Czechoslovakia, an organization of men who could be used for Einsatz.
THE PRESIDENT: And don't these documents show that your comment about the first document was inaccurage and that that document was being used by Schellengerg in September, 1938, for the purpose of organizing the SD in Czechoslovakia?
THE WITNESS: I think it impossible that this document should have been used, because in that case the date would have been added to it; and, secondly, then the Roman figures at the end of the document would have been initials. Whether another draft was m* later and submitted, that I don't know.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you see that the first document is headed Roman III, Arabic 225. The letter to Dr. Best is also headed Roman III, 225, and it refers to the suggestion which is not doubt contained in that document; and the chart itself is also headed III, 225.
THE WITNESS: Yes; I suppose that some other draft was made perhaps months later, and this draft was almost certainly not us because then, in any case, all the Roman figures would have been initials. In any case, the former Roman figure III had nothing to do with the later organization, because the department for which Roman III later went out was Central 22.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, in connection with the witness' replies on the fact that he does not know whether the staff members of SD made up the lists of persons who were to be annihilated or mobilized forcibly or else arrested and placed in the concentration camps, in connection with that, I would like your permission to submit another short document relating this till to Poland, and which consists of the instructions of the SD Chief in Poland to his trusted collaborators. I ask your permission to submit this document.
THE WITNESS: May I say one more word. There is nothing my document about annihilation or concentration camps.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: You will now have the document before you.
May I quote the document? It is USSR 522. I quote:
"Security Service of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Block Station Macheganeaa, 24 August 1943."
Translating verbatim. "To Trusted persons. Subtitle: The preparation of the lists of Poles." The text follows: "I have to point out to you the necessity of paying special attention to the Poles. For that reason, I am giving below the speech of the Reichsfuehrer of the SS, Himmler, given on 15 March 1940 at the staff meeting of the concentration camp commanders in Poland, and according to the directives given in that speech, I ask you to submit to me the list of names of all the concerned Poles." Extract from speech, I quote: "For that reason, it is necessary that all our collaborators, male and female, consider as their most important and serious problem to be to render harmless all the leaders and potential leaders of the Polish people. You, as commanders of the concentration camps, are best informed on how to fulfill the problem. All experts and specially qualified workers of Polish origin we mustutilize in our war industries; also, later all such Poles will be done away with altogether. In fulfilling this very responsible task, you must, within the prescribed limits of time, exterminate the Poles. I give this directive to all the camp commanders. The hour is coming when every German will have to prove himself. For that reason, it is necessary that the great German people understand that its most important task right now is to exterminate all the Poles, I expect from all my trusted colleagues and plenipotentiaries immediate reports on all the Polish anti-German activity. For such tasks we must also utilize all children and aged persons, who can play a considerable role in helping us with this, for it is public knowledge that such people know Poles. Heil Hitler." The signature is illegible but the date is 1 5 March 1940. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: you still deny that the workers of the SD in the occupied territories trained and oriented all persons they could use to make up lists of such persons that were to be annihilated? of the nature of this document.
in the building of the SD.
A I take, for example, the word "camp commander" as being absolutely impossible. I don't see what it could refer to, and it seems to me impossible to ascertain what "Polish defeatist" might mean. It seems to me absolutely -- it seems to me that the Poles, of course, hoped that Germany would lose the war -
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I am not asking you to make propagandistic speeches on the subject of Poland. I am asking you something quite different. I am asking you this question: Are you denying the fact that the SD trained and oriented persons collaborating with it to make lists of persons to be annihilated?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: What evidence is there that this document was found in the SD headquarters?
Your answer didn't come through.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: This was not found at the central headquarters. Mr. President. It was not translated to you correctly if that is what was said. The document was found, by the Polish Army -
THE PRESIDENT: What was translated to me was that it was captured by the Polish Army at SD Headquarters. Is that right?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, but not at the central headquarters of the SD for Poland but at the Headquarters in the Block Station of Macheganeau.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't say anything about the central headquarters. All I want to know is what evidence there is that it was found at the headquarters of the SD.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. May I now read the document of the Polish delegation on the subject which says, "It is hereby certified that the submitted document in the German language dated 24 August 1943 consists of the instructions of the Security Police in the City of Mogilno of the Reichsfuehrer SS, containing the extract from Himmler's speech and that it is the exact photostatic copy of the original submitted by the Chief Commission for the Extermination of Nazi crimes in Poland."
The original was found in an envelope. At the left top there was stated Sicherheitsdienst, and county of Mogilno. The rest contains a number and a statement in German, but the date is 24 August 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry, I didn't hear the beginning of what you said. What are you reading from now?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I an reading Mr. President, from the certificate which the Polish delegation submitted on the subject of this document. This was a document which was submitted to us by the Polish delegation.
THE PRESIDENT: How did it certify this particular document? You see, we have a document produced before us which appears to have nothing on it which connects it with that certificate. I mean, how do you connect it with the certificate?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I was just handed a note here from our documentary section which says that since the Tribunal has the original, nevertheless, the original does not have the certificate of the Polish delegation attached to it, whereas, I have the certificate attached to my document and this is why I wanted to read it to you. I am very sorry about the mistake.
THE PRESIDENT: And the certificate you have identifies the translation you have in Russian? It identifies your copy as being a true copy?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, yesterday I myself verified the translation which I have with the original, and I have found it to be accurate and correct, and the certificate also states that the Russian translation is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you must offer in evidence that certificate in order to make it clear that this is the document which was found at this SD headquarters at Mogilno.
That should be attached to this exhibit. Has this got a number, the exhibit? Is it 552?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, the number is USSR-522, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: We will have to have the certificate attached to it then we shall be able to look at it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. I have no more questions to ask this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A short recess was taken.)
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President in connection with one of the points to which my eminent American colleague has drawn my attention, I request your permission to put here another question to the witness concerning the first document which I submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: Which was the first?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: This is USSR 509, the chart.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. Witness, will you kindly tell us -- Do you deny that Gengenbach, who is to be found in this chart as belonging to the Einstzgruppen -- You will be shown the chart in a minute -- was a member of the SD?
A. He was a member of the SD.
Q. He was a member of the SD?
A. Yes, he was. He was a Gruppenleiter of III-A. He was my immediate superior.
Q. Tell us then-- Wasn't it you who represented him later on?
A. I was the successor of Gengenbach but not his deputy. When I came to Berlin he was already dead. As I set down, Gengenbach was not in Berlin yet but as far as I can recall today from later knowledge, I met him only during the war.
Q. But, at any rate, you did afterwards assume the activities which were assumed before by Gengenbach?
A. The service which Gengenbach did later in Berlin, I took ever from him. He was a Gruppenleiter of III-A.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you very much. The American prosecution, Mr. President, had a copy of the document which has already been submitted under No. L-185, USA 484, and it is stated here in the places underlined that the head of the division III-A was Gengenbach, that is the same man who is to be found in the chart. I have no further questions to put to the witness, Mr. President.