Q I ask you to identify your signature on that document 1 Aug M LJG 5-3 if you will, Dr. Best, please?
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: That will become USA-916.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't hear the number.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: USA-916. the fight against Communists in France, and I ask that the witness identify that as coming from him and having been signed on his behalf.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: That becomes Document 917. discovered a new document which is of the utmost importance but which has not yet been in any way processed, and we would like the permission of the Tribunal to submit this document later on in the course of the proceedings if and as it is ready for submission.
THE PRESIDENT: Can't it be get ready today?
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I think it may be. It was just handed to me in a handwritten translation. It was just discovered in the document center in Berlin and I think it is of such a nature that the Tribunal should know about it. I will try and have it translated before the close of the session today, but I think it is the kind of thing that should not escape the attention of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, perhaps you will make further application when you have got the document ready.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to re-examine?
DR. MERKEL: First of all, two brief questions relating to the defense for the SD. BY DR. MERKEL:
Q Who was at the head of the Intelligence Service after 1 Aug M LJG 5-4 Canaris was dismissed?
Intelligence Service of the Wehrmacht, which in the past had been led as a whole by Canaris, was divided up into the various offices of the Chief of the Security Police. The defensive branch was turned ever to Office 4, the so-called Gestapo branch; a further part to Branch 6, Foreign Intelligence Service; and then finally, the office Mil was set up as something new. after Heydrich's death? learned that Himmler, after Heydrich's death, took over the leadership of the Security Police.
Q One question relating to Denmark. What was the organizational difference between the Gestapo in the Reich itself and the Security Police units which were deployed beyond the boundaries of the Reich? of the Secret State Police, of the Criminal Police, of the SD and numerous other auxiliary forces, and whose sphere of activity was not the same and was not clearly delineated but varied according to instructions of the Central Offices in Berlin and partially according to the directives received from Higher SS and Police Leaders, Reich Commissioners, and so forth.
Q For how long have you known the witness Naujecks? affairs of the Security Police, but I saw him very seldom and had no personal connections with him at all. end of the war, deserted to the Americans? of the Gestapo?
A No. The real Gestapo, that as the Executive Branch 1 Aug M LJG 5-5 of the Commanders of the Security Police, did not carry out these deeds.
Rather, it was special forces who were directly responsible to the Higher Police and SS Leaders. German concentration camps known generally to the public?
A No. At any rate, I can say that despite my prominent position, only now and here in the course of this trial have I learned of these matters. Minister of the Interior mean that, according to this recommendation, the book received an official character?
A I don't believe so, for without doubt, in the same office and in the same way numerous books were recommended, books which in no way were sponsored by an agency or given out on behalf of that agency.
DR. MERKEL: Your Honor, I have no further questions.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I should like to clarify a question which has arisen during the cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Laternser. BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you were shown the document R-178. On page 26 of this document, in the center of the page, you will find that the Reich Commissioner for Defense in the area, Wehrkreis, agreed with the selection of the Russian prisoners of war and their murder. Then the Prosecutor asked you just who this Reich Commissioner for Defense was at the time and you said that you didn't know. Now I should like to ask you, who usually, or as a matter of custom, was the Commissioner for Reich Defense? Wasn't that the Gauleiter? correctly, it was higher officials, Oberpresidents and men of that kind; the ministers of the various states.
not military officers, or were they a purely military agency 1 Aug M LJG 5-6 directly under the OKH, is that right?
A No. As far as I understand and remember the construction at that time, the answer is no.
DR. LATERNSER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. MERKEL: We have another witness, and perhaps, for the sake of unity, it would be better to have our recess not, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
(A recess was taken.)
DR. MERKEL: With the permission of the Tribunal, I call the witness Karl Heinz Hoffmann.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?
THE WITNESS: Karl Heinz Hoffmann.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me. pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. MERKEL:
Q. When and how did you come to the State Police?
A. After I passed the juridical state examination in the year 1937, I applied to three administrative offices for a job. First, I received employment with the State Police and accepted. After one year as volunteer employee of the State Police Office in Koblenz, I was appointed Deputy of the Chief and the Political Expert with the Government. A year later, in 1939, I was transferred in the same function to Dusseldorf. There I was appointed to the position of Reich Defense as Assistant to the Inspector. Then when the Security Police was put to work in Holland I was there as a leading executive. In September 1940, I was transferred to the Reich Ministry of the Interior, Gestapo State Police Office, and there I was put in charge of the department for occupied Western European territories. In September 1943 I was sent to the BDS, Denmark, in charge of Department IV.
Q. You say that you were with two state police offices. That was Koblenz and Dusseldorf as Deputy Chief?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the relation of these Gastapo offices to the internal administration?
A. The chief was political assistant...
DR. MERKEL: Witness, between my question and your asnwer, you have to make a short pause.
WITNESS: The chief was political assistant of the President of the Government, Reierungspresident, and I was chief of the office of the Oberpresident, (Leitstellenleiter). In towns and countries where there were offices of the Gestapo, there were the lower levels, the Kreis, the local officials, and the Gendarmerie.
Approximately 80% of all matters came from these police offices.
Q. Could the NSDAP issue any state directives to the State Police?
A. According to the Reich directives, they could not. Only in places where the Gaulieter was in a position of Oberpresident or Reichsstatthalter (Governor).
Q. How was it in practice: How did it work out?
A. In practice, the medium and lower offices tried to interfere. But the police rejected that and it was mostly the case when Party members were involved in proceedings.
Q. Was it not the task of the Gestapo to further the ideological aims of the Party?
A. No. The tasks of the Gestapo were purely counter-intelligence against attacks directed against the state and within the legal regulations and decrees.
Q. The basic tendency and work of the Gestapo, therefore, was it aggressive or purely defensive?
A. It was surely defensive and not aggressive in any way. That could be seen, first of all, from the following fact. When, in 1944, the administration of the counter-intelligence offices were transferred to State Police and SD offices, the State Police received only the purely counter-intelligence tasks, whereas activities, that is, aggressive espionage and sabotage, were transferred to Amt VI (Department VI).
Q. Did officials of the Gestapo have any special advantages due to the fact that they may have had an opportunity to buy objects which had been confiscated by the Gestapo and put on auction?
A. It had been prohibited by the decree that officials of the Gestapo could acquire objects which had been confiscated and put on auction. In the same way, the officials had not opportunity to par ticipate in the arynization of business establishments in anyway, and also, the immediate confiscation of Jewish property was prohibited for them.
Q. You took part when the SIPO entered Holland, and you took part as a leading official, didn't you? Was there any special training of the employees for that purpose?
A. No. There had been no measures taken of that kind, such as the reparation of interpreters or in the increase of the number of employees or the spcialists. Also, the regulations about pay and other economic regulations were not clear and we were not quite prepared for such tasks.
Q. Did the Gestapo take part in a conspiracy which was connected with the planning, preparing, and waging of aggressive war?
A. I have to deny that, especially when it refers to the Reich Defense. The Inspector of Wehrkreis (District VI), who was superior to 6 Gestapo offices, knew nothing of an aggressive was which was being prepared. At that time when Norway and Denmark were occupied, I learned that from the newspapers. As deputy of the Gestapo office in Dusseldorf, I did not have any knowledge of the state of defensive tactics in the Western areas. In the morning of that day I learned that from the radio and newspapers. When the campaign against Russia was started, I was in the Gestapo office and several days, it may have been three or four, but several days after that we learned about the beginning of the offensive war. Before that we had no idea whatsoever about such plans, that is to say, not any more than any German could have gathered from the political tension.
Q What was inprinciple the composition of personnel of the Gestapo Office in Koblenz?
in my mind, consisted of about forty-five to fifty agents employees who were primarily taken from the Security Police and Criminal Police; that is to say, also from the old I-A, and in addition, about fifteen to twenty administrative and technical employees; apart from that, a purely office personnel altogether of about one hundred persons. matter or not? before 1933 and had been commanded; that is, transferred to the State Police According to my recollection, there were at the most ten to fifteen percent of them who had entered volunarily after 1933 and to that office.
Q What were the main tasks of a Gestapo office in Germany? treason, treason of the country, dealing with clerical questions, questions of the church, questions which arose from the treatment of the Jews; socalled measures against the perpetration of laws for the protection of the Party and certain important political questions from the whole complex concerning the entire complex of the press and economy. tion of protective custody dealt with? the State Police, that is to say, when the result was negative. In these cases which made custody necessary, we made sure to see that the perpetrator are brought before a court. Protective custody was only given for a short time in all those cases where the matter wasnot ready to be brought to the court. Protective custody was transferred to concentration camps -- was only then demanded by the Gestapo -- if the person, or the perpetrators, on the basis of their accuasion, before that he would continue to perpetrate against the regulations. To my knowledge, at the beginning of the war there were twenty-thousand inmates in the concentration camps of whom at the most one-half was there for political reasons.
Q For what reasons were the others kept there?
been sent there. of the families of the political inmates? took people into protective custody, it was not only a welfare organization, to take care of the families but the officials who dealt with the particular case had to make sure that they were taken care of in that manner.
Q Inmates who were released, could they go into any profession? of the Gestapo Office in Germany. was, during May 1940. against the churches; what do you know about that? That is, from the period during which you were active in Koblenz and Duesseldorf? framework of separating the church and state, the influences of the church and the state; that is to say, one intervened when a priest spoke publicly against the decree concerning a sermon. The "Kanzelparagraph" which had been introduced in the law code -- still at the time of the Emporer in Germany against the "Heimteucke Gesetz" or if the clerical organizations, church organizations, were active on worldly matters which were prohibited by a decree.
Q What did one mean by "Jewish questions" during thattime until 1938? at the few offices which were known to you of the Gestapo? also dealt with the question of free masonry; at the Gestapo Office Duesseldorf, Oberinspektor where I believe were two or three assistants.
Q Was there any change brought about in that by the order of Heydrich on the 10th of November 1938, to arrest an unlimited number of Jews unable to work?
in no way expected on the basis of measures which had heretofore been used -since my knowledge later on, the great majority of these Jews had been released again, and one could not recognize that as a basic change of the course pursued by the state leadership. the deportation of Jews to the East, that was intended to mean their destruction, biologically speaking?
A No. At that time I was an official in the Secret State Police Office, Geheimestaatspolizei Amt. During the meetings at the chief of the Office IV, nothing was ever spoken about that. The treatment of the Jewish question was at that time in the hands of Eichmann, who had not emanated from the State Police, but had been transferred from the Security Police, SD, to the Gestapo. He, with his office, was located in a building set aside for that purpose andhad hardly any contact with the other officials-especially, he did not co-sign the adverse matters; for instance, when he didn't have them co-signed when he ordered deportation of Jews. From our objection to that regard, he answered that he was carrying out special missions which had been ordered by the highest authorities and therefore excluded the co-signing by the other officials which would give them the possibility to state their own opinion, because it was not necessary. office of the State Police?
A Yes; even within the inner offices themselves. It was an old principle already before 1933 that individual cases should not be talked about. The secrecy was decreed by the well-known Fuehrer order and SS and the Police Court punished any perpetrators severely and these punishments were publicized, at least among the officials. Security MainOffice, RSHA: what was the task of that office, of that job?
A The mission was to deal with political and police problems of Occupied Territories and to summarize them in a report to higher and other offices; later, in addition, there was the care for the interned political prisoners and personalities of other nature from these territories.
that you had about the occurrences of the national resistance movement in the Occupied Territories? to utilize the forces in these territories by establishing organized resistance; that, in the beginning was voluntary on the part of the people and whoever wanted to join any such military organization would come for patriotic or political reasons to that decision to enter such organizations. Once he had entered in such an organization, he was subordinate to military orders with all their consequences. The measures which he had to carry out were carried out within the entire Allied strategy and not according to the interests of his own country any more; therefrom, it resulted that all actions of the resistance movement were military actions which were not carried out spontaneously by the population and from that it resulted that all measures of a general nature against the population were really reactions upon actions of the military organizations and therefore not only useless but harmful to the German interests because the members of these military organizations were not deterred by such measures in carrying through their orders; the consequences of that was, that a combatting of these forces was only possible in two directions; first, to bring about a policy on the side of Germany, which would deter these people from fighting against Germany; and secondly, to neutralize the active groups by capturing them.
they not act in accordance with the principal of the Gestapo? police and his decisions were not made according to the reports he received from the Police, but primarily on the basis of individual information which he received from other sources, particularly from the higher police leaders. Beyond that, the Police were not able to report continuously and at the same time give an estimation of the situation. On the other hand, to the lover levels, the higher police leaders and the local officers which represented the highest Forman authorities the various territories, again and again interfered with the work of the Police.
Q You just mentioned the word "interfered". Didn't the Gestapo have a definite chain of command?
A No. The Officers assigned in the occupied territory were not only subordinate to the secret state police but to a number of other authorities beginning with military officers, all could issue directives, especially the higher SS and Police leaders, Reich Commissars, and in part also, the military commanders.
Q Can you give us two very drastic examples? to carry out the shooting of Hostages, and there are general measures against the population. For three years we have foucht in order to prevent these measures, and we have sent reports to Himmler and tried to have him recalled. We took prisoners from Norway in order to get them away from his jurisdiction and transferred them to Germany in order to get them out, and later we were able to release them in Germany.
When sabotages occured in Denmark in 1944 and reached its climax, a directive came from OKW to the military commander, to bring about the decree by the Reich plenipotentiary, so that longshoroman and members of their family could be arrested if any acts of sabotage occured in their docks, After a long series of trouble, we succeeded, and the measure was revoked because we learned that the stevedores had nothing to do with these acts. Western territory?
A The organization was not uniform. In Norway and later in Belgium, there were Kommandours and sub-commanders in Denmark and Netherlands and in France there were Kommandours and sub-commanders. In all cases, the DDS was not only subordinate to Berlin but also to the higher SS and Police leaders who again were immediately subordinate to Himmler, and could bring about decisions which di t not go through the RSHA. these officers? police officers. There were only skeleton chews, staff, which were supplemented by the criminal police, and primarily people who had been drafted for that service, and the transfer of Police who had come from the Secret Field Police. in the occupied West territories?
A No oho was transformed or ordered there. Only the local interpreters had been volunteered.
Q Who ordered the deportation of Jews from Denmark? Reichsfuehrer SS. The Commander-in-Chief of the Security Police tried in vain to have it revoked, but he was not successful, and to my knowledge that was also one of the reasons why he was recalled. order to mitigate those measures as far as possible? were directed that doors could not be broken or opened by force. Secondly, together with the Reich plenipotentiary, it was made possible that no confiscation of property should take place. The keys of the apartment a were turned over to the Danish Social Minister. known in Denmark? time before. deported to Germany? close contact with the resistance movement and the British Information Service. For instance the Chief of the Danish Police turned over the information of the activities of German troops in Juetland and Fuehner to the British Intelligence Service, and was involved in carrying out savotage in case of invasion. Other leading officials were involved in a similar sense. Under these circumstances, the armed forces felt the Danish police micht act behind their backs.
Q Did the State Police initiate the deportation?
Police but a higher SS Police which already approved - and demanded the approval, of these measures from Himmler, when he told the State Police about his intentions. during interrogations ? rejected by the court. interrogation methods, the third degree? who had been sentenced for mistreatment of prisoners, by a regular court. gations occuring in Denmark? ations in Denmark, and to explain this I have to point out the following : 1st, because of attempts of assination on German soldiers; attempts on transports, and where soldiers were also killed. In order to forestall that danger and to save the lives of Germans, the third degree interrogation was carried out. 1043, concerning the application of third degree methods? basis of the experience gained, it was stated that for the forementioned reasons, the application of third degree to the content mentioned, was necessary.
Q. On whose initiative were hostages shot in France, who started it?
A. As far as is known to me that was a directive from Adolf Hitler. We received continually reports from the Gestapo office and we sent reports, stating that we were against these measures to the same extent as in other occupied territories for the reason that I have given before.
Q. Why did the Gestapo especially reject the idea of shooting hostages in Paris after German soldiers had been killed?
A. Because we were of the opinion that these measures had been carried out by a relatively small group of people and that general measures, therefore, would not only be useless but damaging in consideration of the experiences which I mentioned before. Facts really prove that these measures just in Paris had been carried out by a group which consisted of not even one hundred persons.
Q. Who ordered and carried out the deportation of workers from France to Germany?
A. That was a measure of the manpower Administration. It is not known to me that the Gestapo had carried out any deportation of workers. I have to make one limitation concerning France where, upon the orders of the Reichfuehrer from my recollection, the so-called action "Meerschaum" was carried out in the course of which French citizens French nationals, I believe five thousand, were forced to be transferred to Germany, people who had committed minor offenses in the political sense
Q. The was responsible for the evacuation of Jews from France?
A. The evacuation of Jews was carried out by the office of Eichmann, as I have already explained, without any possibility for the older officers of the State Police to do anything about it.
Q. Upon who directive was the port quarter of Marseilles destroyed? That was a directive by the Reichsfuehrer, sent immediately to the higher SS and police leaders who, especially in France, had worked out a close connection with the Reichsfuehrer. Berlin we heard about this order of the Reichsfuehrer only later.
Q. Did Hitler issue directives frequently without telling the police about it?
A. While I was in Berlin that happened frequently and on the basis of reports which we received from some other office or as a spontaneous reaction of some act of sabotage or an attempted assissination.
Q. Do you, on the basis of your activity in Berlin, know of any cases of intensified methods during interrogations in the occupied western territories?
A. Officially we only knew at the time about the Norwegian White Book which caused an investigation in Oslo and then it became the basis of our reports to the Reichsguehrer and it was intended to have the result of having Terboven recalled.
Q. What do you know about the deportation of French statesmen and generals to Germany? This particular deportation had been ordered by the Reichsfuehrer in connection with the higher SS and police leaders in France. The Secret State Police office, Gestapo Amt, did not know anything beforehand and was confronted with the directive that Prime Minister Reynaud and Minister Mandel should be put into prison cells. The Gestapo office, after lengthy reports, succeeded in getting different type quarters for the French statesmen and for these who were later transferred to Germany there were better quarter from the beginning.
Q. Do you have any knowledge about the facts that one of the French generals who was at the fortress Koenigstein in November 1944 was to be executed upon the orders of Panzinger?
A. No.
Q. And that by having the general transported from Koenigstein and then having him shot because he allegedly tried to escape? I put before you the documents which have just been presented by the American Prosecution, 4048-PS to 4052-PS, and I want you to state your opinion as to what you know about this. I only have an English copy but the witness understands English.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in your document book?
DR. MERKEL: No, my Lord, it is not in the document book and I could not out it in because these documents have just been presented by the American Prosecution during the last session. The numbers are 4048 to 4052-PS. They have just been presented during the cross-examination of Dr. Best. BY DR. MERKEL:
Q. Witness, I believe it is not necessary for you to read all the documents now. I only want you to get orientated from these documents and answer my question, that is, as to whether anything is known to you about this incident?
A. The dates are January, 1945, December 1944 and during that time I was in Denmark and I was no longer in the Secret State Police office, the Gestapo office.
Q. Generally, was the deportation of foreign workers to Germany carried out by the Gestapo?
A. No. I recall from my activity in their office that even the arrests of escaped workers in the occupied western territories were not carried out by the Gestapo. I remember particularly that in 1940 Reichscommissar Seyss-Inquart stressed specifically that such things should not be done.
Q. Was the so-called "Nacht und Nevel" order brought before you in order to make it known to the Gestapo?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you agree with that decree?
A. The "Nacht und Nebel" decree had been issued by the OKW together with who Reichsminister of Justice. The Gestapo office had nothing to do with the drafting of it. There were, in the way of police administration, great difficulties in the beginning because what had been committed abroad had to be clarified in Germany and for these reasons I rejected it in principle as being too hard to carry out.
Then there was another damaging consequence. The members of the family did not know anything about theperson arrested and this was principally against our tendencies.
These difficulties arose immediately when the first people were arrested and transferred to the State Police office, who had to clarify the, proceedings. The result therefrom was that innocent people were brought to Germany. We succeeded at the time, that despite this decree, these people should be returned to their native country.
Q. The so-called "Kugel" decree, the commando order, were these orders applied in Denmark during your activity?
A. No.
Q. What do you know about the application of these decrees in other occupied western territories?
A. All these were decrees which had been issued after I left Berlin and therefore I could not say anything about it.
Q. Would you know whether the Gestapo in the occupied western territories had special groups in the prisoner of war camps so as to select those who were racially undesirable or politically undesirable.
A. I cannot say anything about that because that decree was not known to me before the surrender.
Q. Were the decrees mentioned decrees of a State Police nature? These decrees did not emanate from the State Police but they were ordered from above. The normal State Police chiefs therefore, could not expect that one day such decree would be issued and beyond that, on the basis of secret regulations, the contents of those decrees were really not known to the great majority of State Police officials.
Dr. MERKEL: I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENTS Do the Prosecution wish to cross examine ? BY M. MONNERAY:
Q. Dr. Hoffman, you were a member of the nazi party, were you not ?
A. Yes.
Q. Since when ?
A. Since 1 December 1932
Q. And when you became a candidate for entering the Civil service, or the police, you indicated that you were a member of the Party, did you not ?
A. I beg your pardon; I did not quite understand the question.
Q. When you became a candidate for the civil service, and especially for the police, you indicated that you were a member of the nazi party, did you not ?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. You said that there was no relationship between the Gestapo and the Nazi Party, did you not ?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Is it correct, though, that civil servants in the police were subjected to political screening ?
A. I did not quite understand the sense of the question, I am sorry, I did not quite understand the question.
Q. "Political screening" is an special term which you probably known and which in German is known as "Politische Beurteilung".
A. Yes.
Q. It is true, is it not, that important officials of the police, before being nominated, were subjected to this political screening of the Party ?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the circular of the Party Chancellory according to which the authorities of the Nazi Party are not obliged to consult the USC slips when it is a question of promoting them ?
A. Each official who entered was scrutinized for his political attitude, and each one who was promoted, was, of course, also investigated.