BY LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS:
Q Now yesterday, Dr. Best, you testified that you learned that the Einsatzkommando of the Security Police and SD in Denmark was opposed to the Kugel Erlass, didn't you? Kugel Erlass?
A I was told that by the head of the executive, Dr. Hoffmann.
Q Dr. Hoffmann. He was the head of the Gestapo in Denmark, wasn't he?
Q And when did Dr. Hoffmann tell you that? with Dr. Hoffmann I was reminded of these facts, or whether the individual measures which were turned down at that time were reported to no at the time. It may be that this is a new piece of information for me, which confirms to me that this decree never was put into effect. No case of this land ever occurred.
Q Now, Dr. Best, you just got through saying in your last answer that Dr. Hoffmann told you that the Gestapo was opposed to the Kugel Erlass in Denmark and that he told you that in Denmark. Now, is that true or isn't it true?
A I did not say when and where I learned of it. I said only that the decree was not applied, not put into effect, and on the own initiative of the police, at that. I did not say when and where I was told this.
Q What was the Kugel Erlass? measures, I believe, dealing with prisoners of war who had escaped. the Commission, you didn't say anything about having had a conversation with Dr. Hoffmann about it, did you? my time of office I had known the Kugel Erlass. I did not see this at that time.
I did not see the decree at that time. I believe I have mentioned this already. I read it only here.
LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: If the Tribunal please, I have two documents which I would like to offer into evidence at this time. These documents have come to our attention and have been made available only in the last two days. Consequently, it has been impossible for us to present them to anyone speaking for the Gestapo before the Commission, and I think that this witness can assist in identifying some of the names. I would line to ask the permission of the Tribunal merely to show these documents to the witness. They are quite long, and I will then try to summarize as briefly as possible and develop what can be developed out of them in the shortest possible time, perhaps fifteen minutes for both documents here.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.
LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: Then at this time I offer into evidence R178, which becomes USA 910, and I ask that the document be shown to the witness. exploitation team and sent to the Prosecution from the Air Documents Research Center in London. It contains correspondence concerning a complaint about a certain Major Meinel against the Gestapo officers in Munich, Regensburg, Nuernberg, and Fuerth over the screening out and murdering of Russian prisoners of war. I ask that the witness turn to Document F, which is page 7 of the English translation. BY LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: in Munich, in which it lists 18 labor camps screened by the Gestapo, showing a total of 3,088 Soviet prisoners of war screened, of which 410 are screened out as intolerable. You will note, following Page 8 of the English translation, that the 410 Russians sorted out belong to the following categories: officials and officers, Jews, members of intelligentsia, fanatical Communists, agitators and others, runaways, incurably sick. You will note on Page 9 of the English translation that of the 410 Russians who were sorted out, 301 had been executed at the concentration camp at Dachau at the date of this report.
On Page 10 of the English translation following, Witness, you will find the following: namely, that these 410 Russians screened out at Munich represent a percentage of 13 per cent, whereas the Gestapo offices at Nuernberg Fuerth, and Regensberg screened out an average of 15 to 17 per cent. This report, which is signed by Schuermer, states, right at that same place, "I wish to refute most emphatically the complaints of the high command of the armed forces that the screening of the Russians had been carried out in a superficial manner." Now, witness, do you know Schuermer?
Q. All right. Then I want you to turn to Document G. This is a report from the Gestapo office in Munich complaining about the attitude of Major Meinel; and on page 13 of the English translation, you will find a statement that Meinel was thought to have complained to the High Command of the armed forces that the Russians had been superficially screened out.
the SD in which Meinel was reproached for having shown, to some extent, aversion against the National Socialist creed. For example, he mentioned God but not the Fuehrer in an order of the day.
THE PRESIDENT: Where does that come ?
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS: Sir, you will find that on Page 13 of the English translation, in the middle of the page. BY LT. COMDR HARRIS: be said -- one who mentions God before Hitler.
A I do not know which question you want me to answer. As far as this whole pattern is concerned, I should like to emphasize that at the end of May 1940, I left my position in the Reich Ministry of the Interior in the Security Police Division, and therefore I had no knowledge of the sort of things which transpired in the year 1941.
Q Then turn to Document G, Page 15 of the English translation. You will find this sentence:
"Experience, however, has shown that the Russian can be compelled to work only by the utmost severity and by the use of corporal punishment."
Now, pass on to Document H, Dr. Best. There appares on Page 17 of the English translation this statement:
"Furthermore, I pointed out to Major Meinel that the work of the Gestapo employment detachments was done with the consent of the High Command of the Armed Forces, and according to rules which had been drafted in collaboration with the High Command, Department of Prisoners of War."
Now, this document is signed by Schimmel. Was Schimmel known to you?
A Schimmel? I cannot find the name Schimmel, but I do recall that there was a Regierungsrat by that name, I believe, in the Secret Police.
Q Passto Document J, then, Page 21 of the English Translation. At the end of that, you will find that Meinel, ingiving his reply to the accusations made against him, stated:
"When I mentioned that it weighed heavily on the officers' conscience to hand over the prisoners, Regierungsrat Schimmel replied that the hearts of some of the SS men who were charged with executing prisoners were all but breaking." that the Reich Commissioner for Defense was informed about these murders, and approved of them. This was for Defense Area VII. Do you know who the Reich Commissioner for Defense was in Defense Area VII who approved these murders?
A A Reich Commissioner? You mean the Reich Defense Commissioner?
Q Yes, the Reich Defense Commissioner. That is what I said. for that time I was away from the Reich -
Q All right. Let us go on. There are many other cases of the screening of Soviet prisoners of war by the Gestapo for execution; that is, by local Gestapo offices within Germany proper. And I do not wish to take up further time with that. But I wish that you would turn to Document T, witness, because I want to get evidence of the result of this conflict with Major Meinel. Document T is a teletype from the Gestapo office in Berlin, and it states:
"The prisoners of war who have been screened out"-
THE PRESIDENT: What page is that?
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS: Page 37, sir. BY LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS:
Q "The prisoners of war who have been screened out will be transferred to the Buchenwald Concentration Camp as the High Command has decided in conference today. Will you please inform the Higher SS and Police Fuehrer today about this and also that Meinel is getting a different assignment."
Now, this teletype emanated from the RSHA office as IV A. That was the Gestapo, was it not, Dr. Best? Now you know who Panzinger, was, do you not?
A Yes. He was the deputy of Mueller.
Q Yes. And he was the head of this Department IV A, which was charged with the handling of opponents and sabotage, assassinations, protective custody, and matters of that sort, was henot?
A He was the head of the Department IV A. Just what was dealt with in this department I cannot recall.
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS: That appears in Document L-219, for the Tribunal's information, which is already in evidence.
Now, I wish to offer the other documents. There are five documents here which are in a group, sir, and I will offer them in order:
4050-PS becomes USA 911; 4049-PS becomes USA 912; 4052 PS becomesUSA 913; 4048 PS becomes USA 914; 4051 PS becomes USA 915. and we have not yet been able to obtain the originals. They sent to us only the photostatic copies. We have requested the originals, and they will be here, we are assured, in a matter of days. As soon as they come, with the permission of the Tribunal and the approval of counsel, we will substitute the originals for these photostatic copies. BY LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS:
Q Now, Dr. Best, turning to Document4050 PS first, you will see that this refers to the same SS obersturmbannfuehrer Panzinger. This is apparently a foreign office communication in which it says that Panzinger reports that various changes have been made in the preparation for the matter discussed, and that he has promisedus a plan for the execution of our proposed actions. will find just what that plan was. You will see there that the plan was to transfer 75 French generals from Koenigstein, in the course of which one General by the name of DeBossse was to have a misfortune -- namely, his car was to break down -- in order to separate him from the others.
This was to provide the opportunity to have the general shot in the back while attempting to escape. completing this murder, including this interesting statement, that a decision has as yet to be reached whether or not the burial of the dead man should be carried out with military honors; and it goes on to say that the question will be looked into once more by the SD.
THE PRESIDENT: Shouldn't you read the last paragraph on Page 2?
LT. CMDR. HARRIS: Yes, sir, I will read that.
"Protecting power investigations: It will be assured through the collection of the persons concerned in the preparation of all documentary evidence that in the event the protecting power is desirous of an investigation, the necessary documents are available for dismissal of a complaint." BY LT. CMDR. HARRIS: find again the reference to this infamous SS Oberstrumbannfuehrer Panzinger. You see, witness, Panzinger had been promoted by this time. He states that the preparations with respect to the French generals had reached the stage where a report concerning the proposed procedure would be submitted to the Reichsfuehrer SS during the next few days. And you will find that he again explains this method of murder, and that he said that they will carry it out by one of two methods, either by shooting during escape, or, secondly, through poisoning by carbon monoxide gas. shows that it was prepared for presentation to the Reich Foreign Minister, Mr. Ribbentrop.
Now, the next document is particularly an interesting one. It is document 4048 PS. This document is dated December 30, 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: Was Ambassador Ritter the ambassador in Paris?
BY LT. COMDR. HARRIS:
Q Witness, was Ambassador Ritter the ambassador in Paris?
A I do not rememberexactly. That must have taken place some time before I knew how the diplomatic posts were filled.
THE PRESIDENT: It does not matter.
LT. COMDR. HARRIS: I am informed, sir, that he was a liaison officer between the Foreign Office and the army. I am not sure of that, however.
Well, passing to Document 4049-PS, here is where the whole 1 Aug M LJG 5-1 plan is laid out in summary form, and I would like to read this briefly.
This is addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS, and it says:
"The discussions about the matter in question with the Chief of Prisoner of War Matters and the Foreign Office have taken place as ordered and have led to the following proposals: 1. In the course of a transfer of five persons in three cars with army identifications, the escape incident occurs when the last car has a flat tire, or 2. Carbon dioxide is released by the driver into the closed back of the car. The apparatus can be installed with the simples means and can be removed again immediately. After considerable difficulties a suitable vehicle has now became available. 3. Other possibilities, such as poisoning of food or drink have been considered but have been discarded again as too unsafe. accordance with plans, such as report, abduction, documentation, and burial, have been made. and will appear in army uniform and with pay books delivered to them. lished with Geheimrat Wagner of the Foreign Office. Wagner reports that the Reich Foreign Minister expects to speak with the Reichsfuehrer about this matter. must be coordinated in every respect. man in question has been mentioned in the course of various long distance calls between Fuehrer Headquarters and the Chief of PW Matters; therefore, the Chief of PW Matters now proposes the use of another man with the same qualifications. I agree with this and propose that the choice be left to the Chief of Prisoners of War Matters."
BY LT. COMMANDER HARRIS:
1 Aug LJG M 5-2
Q Now, by whom is this letter signed, Dr. Best?
A It states that it is signed Dr. Kaltenbrunner.
Q Signed Dr. Kaltenbrunner. Now, we will pass to the last document, 4051-PS. This is a report on a telephone conversation which carries us to January 12, 1945, and it says -repeats that: "A French prisoner of war General is going to die an unnatural death by being shot in flight or by poisoning. Subsequent matters, such as reports, post mortem examination, documentation, and burial have been taken care of as planned." It states that: "The Reich Foreign Minister's instruction states that 'the matter is to be discussed with Ambassador Albrecht in order to determine exactly what legal rights the protective power could claim in this matter in order to make our plans accordingly.'" Now, who is Ambassador Albrecht?
Foreign Office.
Q Now, did you know, Dr. Best, that General Mesne' was Killed on this read at about this time? was active in Denmark and heard nothing about matters of this kind.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: That concludes my cross examination, if the Tribunal please. However, I have two documents which the French delegation ask be submitted. These are both documents signed by or on behalf of this defendant, Dr. Best, and with your permission, I will offer then in evidence new on behalf of the French delegation.
The first is document F-967. This relates to the deporting of Jews and Communists from France, and states that they have to hold up these deportations for a while because of lack of transportation. BY LT. COMMANDER HARRIS:
Q I ask you to identify your signature on that document 1 Aug M LJG 5-3 if you will, Dr. Best, please?
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: That will become USA-916.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't hear the number.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: USA-916. the fight against Communists in France, and I ask that the witness identify that as coming from him and having been signed on his behalf.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: That becomes Document 917. discovered a new document which is of the utmost importance but which has not yet been in any way processed, and we would like the permission of the Tribunal to submit this document later on in the course of the proceedings if and as it is ready for submission.
THE PRESIDENT: Can't it be get ready today?
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I think it may be. It was just handed to me in a handwritten translation. It was just discovered in the document center in Berlin and I think it is of such a nature that the Tribunal should know about it. I will try and have it translated before the close of the session today, but I think it is the kind of thing that should not escape the attention of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, perhaps you will make further application when you have got the document ready.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to re-examine?
DR. MERKEL: First of all, two brief questions relating to the defense for the SD. BY DR. MERKEL:
Q Who was at the head of the Intelligence Service after 1 Aug M LJG 5-4 Canaris was dismissed?
Intelligence Service of the Wehrmacht, which in the past had been led as a whole by Canaris, was divided up into the various offices of the Chief of the Security Police. The defensive branch was turned ever to Office 4, the so-called Gestapo branch; a further part to Branch 6, Foreign Intelligence Service; and then finally, the office Mil was set up as something new. after Heydrich's death? learned that Himmler, after Heydrich's death, took over the leadership of the Security Police.
Q One question relating to Denmark. What was the organizational difference between the Gestapo in the Reich itself and the Security Police units which were deployed beyond the boundaries of the Reich? of the Secret State Police, of the Criminal Police, of the SD and numerous other auxiliary forces, and whose sphere of activity was not the same and was not clearly delineated but varied according to instructions of the Central Offices in Berlin and partially according to the directives received from Higher SS and Police Leaders, Reich Commissioners, and so forth.
Q For how long have you known the witness Naujecks? affairs of the Security Police, but I saw him very seldom and had no personal connections with him at all. end of the war, deserted to the Americans? of the Gestapo?
A No. The real Gestapo, that as the Executive Branch 1 Aug M LJG 5-5 of the Commanders of the Security Police, did not carry out these deeds.
Rather, it was special forces who were directly responsible to the Higher Police and SS Leaders. German concentration camps known generally to the public?
A No. At any rate, I can say that despite my prominent position, only now and here in the course of this trial have I learned of these matters. Minister of the Interior mean that, according to this recommendation, the book received an official character?
A I don't believe so, for without doubt, in the same office and in the same way numerous books were recommended, books which in no way were sponsored by an agency or given out on behalf of that agency.
DR. MERKEL: Your Honor, I have no further questions.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I should like to clarify a question which has arisen during the cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Laternser. BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you were shown the document R-178. On page 26 of this document, in the center of the page, you will find that the Reich Commissioner for Defense in the area, Wehrkreis, agreed with the selection of the Russian prisoners of war and their murder. Then the Prosecutor asked you just who this Reich Commissioner for Defense was at the time and you said that you didn't know. Now I should like to ask you, who usually, or as a matter of custom, was the Commissioner for Reich Defense? Wasn't that the Gauleiter? correctly, it was higher officials, Oberpresidents and men of that kind; the ministers of the various states.
not military officers, or were they a purely military agency 1 Aug M LJG 5-6 directly under the OKH, is that right?
A No. As far as I understand and remember the construction at that time, the answer is no.
DR. LATERNSER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. MERKEL: We have another witness, and perhaps, for the sake of unity, it would be better to have our recess not, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
(A recess was taken.)
DR. MERKEL: With the permission of the Tribunal, I call the witness Karl Heinz Hoffmann.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?
THE WITNESS: Karl Heinz Hoffmann.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me. pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. MERKEL:
Q. When and how did you come to the State Police?
A. After I passed the juridical state examination in the year 1937, I applied to three administrative offices for a job. First, I received employment with the State Police and accepted. After one year as volunteer employee of the State Police Office in Koblenz, I was appointed Deputy of the Chief and the Political Expert with the Government. A year later, in 1939, I was transferred in the same function to Dusseldorf. There I was appointed to the position of Reich Defense as Assistant to the Inspector. Then when the Security Police was put to work in Holland I was there as a leading executive. In September 1940, I was transferred to the Reich Ministry of the Interior, Gestapo State Police Office, and there I was put in charge of the department for occupied Western European territories. In September 1943 I was sent to the BDS, Denmark, in charge of Department IV.
Q. You say that you were with two state police offices. That was Koblenz and Dusseldorf as Deputy Chief?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the relation of these Gastapo offices to the internal administration?
A. The chief was political assistant...
DR. MERKEL: Witness, between my question and your asnwer, you have to make a short pause.
WITNESS: The chief was political assistant of the President of the Government, Reierungspresident, and I was chief of the office of the Oberpresident, (Leitstellenleiter). In towns and countries where there were offices of the Gestapo, there were the lower levels, the Kreis, the local officials, and the Gendarmerie.
Approximately 80% of all matters came from these police offices.
Q. Could the NSDAP issue any state directives to the State Police?
A. According to the Reich directives, they could not. Only in places where the Gaulieter was in a position of Oberpresident or Reichsstatthalter (Governor).
Q. How was it in practice: How did it work out?
A. In practice, the medium and lower offices tried to interfere. But the police rejected that and it was mostly the case when Party members were involved in proceedings.
Q. Was it not the task of the Gestapo to further the ideological aims of the Party?
A. No. The tasks of the Gestapo were purely counter-intelligence against attacks directed against the state and within the legal regulations and decrees.
Q. The basic tendency and work of the Gestapo, therefore, was it aggressive or purely defensive?
A. It was surely defensive and not aggressive in any way. That could be seen, first of all, from the following fact. When, in 1944, the administration of the counter-intelligence offices were transferred to State Police and SD offices, the State Police received only the purely counter-intelligence tasks, whereas activities, that is, aggressive espionage and sabotage, were transferred to Amt VI (Department VI).
Q. Did officials of the Gestapo have any special advantages due to the fact that they may have had an opportunity to buy objects which had been confiscated by the Gestapo and put on auction?
A. It had been prohibited by the decree that officials of the Gestapo could acquire objects which had been confiscated and put on auction. In the same way, the officials had not opportunity to par ticipate in the arynization of business establishments in anyway, and also, the immediate confiscation of Jewish property was prohibited for them.
Q. You took part when the SIPO entered Holland, and you took part as a leading official, didn't you? Was there any special training of the employees for that purpose?
A. No. There had been no measures taken of that kind, such as the reparation of interpreters or in the increase of the number of employees or the spcialists. Also, the regulations about pay and other economic regulations were not clear and we were not quite prepared for such tasks.
Q. Did the Gestapo take part in a conspiracy which was connected with the planning, preparing, and waging of aggressive war?
A. I have to deny that, especially when it refers to the Reich Defense. The Inspector of Wehrkreis (District VI), who was superior to 6 Gestapo offices, knew nothing of an aggressive was which was being prepared. At that time when Norway and Denmark were occupied, I learned that from the newspapers. As deputy of the Gestapo office in Dusseldorf, I did not have any knowledge of the state of defensive tactics in the Western areas. In the morning of that day I learned that from the radio and newspapers. When the campaign against Russia was started, I was in the Gestapo office and several days, it may have been three or four, but several days after that we learned about the beginning of the offensive war. Before that we had no idea whatsoever about such plans, that is to say, not any more than any German could have gathered from the political tension.
Q What was inprinciple the composition of personnel of the Gestapo Office in Koblenz?
in my mind, consisted of about forty-five to fifty agents employees who were primarily taken from the Security Police and Criminal Police; that is to say, also from the old I-A, and in addition, about fifteen to twenty administrative and technical employees; apart from that, a purely office personnel altogether of about one hundred persons. matter or not? before 1933 and had been commanded; that is, transferred to the State Police According to my recollection, there were at the most ten to fifteen percent of them who had entered volunarily after 1933 and to that office.
Q What were the main tasks of a Gestapo office in Germany? treason, treason of the country, dealing with clerical questions, questions of the church, questions which arose from the treatment of the Jews; socalled measures against the perpetration of laws for the protection of the Party and certain important political questions from the whole complex concerning the entire complex of the press and economy. tion of protective custody dealt with? the State Police, that is to say, when the result was negative. In these cases which made custody necessary, we made sure to see that the perpetrator are brought before a court. Protective custody was only given for a short time in all those cases where the matter wasnot ready to be brought to the court. Protective custody was transferred to concentration camps -- was only then demanded by the Gestapo -- if the person, or the perpetrators, on the basis of their accuasion, before that he would continue to perpetrate against the regulations. To my knowledge, at the beginning of the war there were twenty-thousand inmates in the concentration camps of whom at the most one-half was there for political reasons.
Q For what reasons were the others kept there?
been sent there. of the families of the political inmates? took people into protective custody, it was not only a welfare organization, to take care of the families but the officials who dealt with the particular case had to make sure that they were taken care of in that manner.
Q Inmates who were released, could they go into any profession? of the Gestapo Office in Germany. was, during May 1940. against the churches; what do you know about that? That is, from the period during which you were active in Koblenz and Duesseldorf? framework of separating the church and state, the influences of the church and the state; that is to say, one intervened when a priest spoke publicly against the decree concerning a sermon. The "Kanzelparagraph" which had been introduced in the law code -- still at the time of the Emporer in Germany against the "Heimteucke Gesetz" or if the clerical organizations, church organizations, were active on worldly matters which were prohibited by a decree.
Q What did one mean by "Jewish questions" during thattime until 1938? at the few offices which were known to you of the Gestapo? also dealt with the question of free masonry; at the Gestapo Office Duesseldorf, Oberinspektor where I believe were two or three assistants.
Q Was there any change brought about in that by the order of Heydrich on the 10th of November 1938, to arrest an unlimited number of Jews unable to work?
in no way expected on the basis of measures which had heretofore been used -since my knowledge later on, the great majority of these Jews had been released again, and one could not recognize that as a basic change of the course pursued by the state leadership. the deportation of Jews to the East, that was intended to mean their destruction, biologically speaking?
A No. At that time I was an official in the Secret State Police Office, Geheimestaatspolizei Amt. During the meetings at the chief of the Office IV, nothing was ever spoken about that. The treatment of the Jewish question was at that time in the hands of Eichmann, who had not emanated from the State Police, but had been transferred from the Security Police, SD, to the Gestapo. He, with his office, was located in a building set aside for that purpose andhad hardly any contact with the other officials-especially, he did not co-sign the adverse matters; for instance, when he didn't have them co-signed when he ordered deportation of Jews. From our objection to that regard, he answered that he was carrying out special missions which had been ordered by the highest authorities and therefore excluded the co-signing by the other officials which would give them the possibility to state their own opinion, because it was not necessary. office of the State Police?
A Yes; even within the inner offices themselves. It was an old principle already before 1933 that individual cases should not be talked about. The secrecy was decreed by the well-known Fuehrer order and SS and the Police Court punished any perpetrators severely and these punishments were publicized, at least among the officials. Security MainOffice, RSHA: what was the task of that office, of that job?