A The mission was to deal with political and police problems of Occupied Territories and to summarize them in a report to higher and other offices; later, in addition, there was the care for the interned political prisoners and personalities of other nature from these territories.
that you had about the occurrences of the national resistance movement in the Occupied Territories? to utilize the forces in these territories by establishing organized resistance; that, in the beginning was voluntary on the part of the people and whoever wanted to join any such military organization would come for patriotic or political reasons to that decision to enter such organizations. Once he had entered in such an organization, he was subordinate to military orders with all their consequences. The measures which he had to carry out were carried out within the entire Allied strategy and not according to the interests of his own country any more; therefrom, it resulted that all actions of the resistance movement were military actions which were not carried out spontaneously by the population and from that it resulted that all measures of a general nature against the population were really reactions upon actions of the military organizations and therefore not only useless but harmful to the German interests because the members of these military organizations were not deterred by such measures in carrying through their orders; the consequences of that was, that a combatting of these forces was only possible in two directions; first, to bring about a policy on the side of Germany, which would deter these people from fighting against Germany; and secondly, to neutralize the active groups by capturing them.
they not act in accordance with the principal of the Gestapo? police and his decisions were not made according to the reports he received from the Police, but primarily on the basis of individual information which he received from other sources, particularly from the higher police leaders. Beyond that, the Police were not able to report continuously and at the same time give an estimation of the situation. On the other hand, to the lover levels, the higher police leaders and the local officers which represented the highest Forman authorities the various territories, again and again interfered with the work of the Police.
Q You just mentioned the word "interfered". Didn't the Gestapo have a definite chain of command?
A No. The Officers assigned in the occupied territory were not only subordinate to the secret state police but to a number of other authorities beginning with military officers, all could issue directives, especially the higher SS and Police leaders, Reich Commissars, and in part also, the military commanders.
Q Can you give us two very drastic examples? to carry out the shooting of Hostages, and there are general measures against the population. For three years we have foucht in order to prevent these measures, and we have sent reports to Himmler and tried to have him recalled. We took prisoners from Norway in order to get them away from his jurisdiction and transferred them to Germany in order to get them out, and later we were able to release them in Germany.
When sabotages occured in Denmark in 1944 and reached its climax, a directive came from OKW to the military commander, to bring about the decree by the Reich plenipotentiary, so that longshoroman and members of their family could be arrested if any acts of sabotage occured in their docks, After a long series of trouble, we succeeded, and the measure was revoked because we learned that the stevedores had nothing to do with these acts. Western territory?
A The organization was not uniform. In Norway and later in Belgium, there were Kommandours and sub-commanders in Denmark and Netherlands and in France there were Kommandours and sub-commanders. In all cases, the DDS was not only subordinate to Berlin but also to the higher SS and Police leaders who again were immediately subordinate to Himmler, and could bring about decisions which di t not go through the RSHA. these officers? police officers. There were only skeleton chews, staff, which were supplemented by the criminal police, and primarily people who had been drafted for that service, and the transfer of Police who had come from the Secret Field Police. in the occupied West territories?
A No oho was transformed or ordered there. Only the local interpreters had been volunteered.
Q Who ordered the deportation of Jews from Denmark? Reichsfuehrer SS. The Commander-in-Chief of the Security Police tried in vain to have it revoked, but he was not successful, and to my knowledge that was also one of the reasons why he was recalled. order to mitigate those measures as far as possible? were directed that doors could not be broken or opened by force. Secondly, together with the Reich plenipotentiary, it was made possible that no confiscation of property should take place. The keys of the apartment a were turned over to the Danish Social Minister. known in Denmark? time before. deported to Germany? close contact with the resistance movement and the British Information Service. For instance the Chief of the Danish Police turned over the information of the activities of German troops in Juetland and Fuehner to the British Intelligence Service, and was involved in carrying out savotage in case of invasion. Other leading officials were involved in a similar sense. Under these circumstances, the armed forces felt the Danish police micht act behind their backs.
Q Did the State Police initiate the deportation?
Police but a higher SS Police which already approved - and demanded the approval, of these measures from Himmler, when he told the State Police about his intentions. during interrogations ? rejected by the court. interrogation methods, the third degree? who had been sentenced for mistreatment of prisoners, by a regular court. gations occuring in Denmark? ations in Denmark, and to explain this I have to point out the following : 1st, because of attempts of assination on German soldiers; attempts on transports, and where soldiers were also killed. In order to forestall that danger and to save the lives of Germans, the third degree interrogation was carried out. 1043, concerning the application of third degree methods? basis of the experience gained, it was stated that for the forementioned reasons, the application of third degree to the content mentioned, was necessary.
Q. On whose initiative were hostages shot in France, who started it?
A. As far as is known to me that was a directive from Adolf Hitler. We received continually reports from the Gestapo office and we sent reports, stating that we were against these measures to the same extent as in other occupied territories for the reason that I have given before.
Q. Why did the Gestapo especially reject the idea of shooting hostages in Paris after German soldiers had been killed?
A. Because we were of the opinion that these measures had been carried out by a relatively small group of people and that general measures, therefore, would not only be useless but damaging in consideration of the experiences which I mentioned before. Facts really prove that these measures just in Paris had been carried out by a group which consisted of not even one hundred persons.
Q. Who ordered and carried out the deportation of workers from France to Germany?
A. That was a measure of the manpower Administration. It is not known to me that the Gestapo had carried out any deportation of workers. I have to make one limitation concerning France where, upon the orders of the Reichfuehrer from my recollection, the so-called action "Meerschaum" was carried out in the course of which French citizens French nationals, I believe five thousand, were forced to be transferred to Germany, people who had committed minor offenses in the political sense
Q. The was responsible for the evacuation of Jews from France?
A. The evacuation of Jews was carried out by the office of Eichmann, as I have already explained, without any possibility for the older officers of the State Police to do anything about it.
Q. Upon who directive was the port quarter of Marseilles destroyed? That was a directive by the Reichsfuehrer, sent immediately to the higher SS and police leaders who, especially in France, had worked out a close connection with the Reichsfuehrer. Berlin we heard about this order of the Reichsfuehrer only later.
Q. Did Hitler issue directives frequently without telling the police about it?
A. While I was in Berlin that happened frequently and on the basis of reports which we received from some other office or as a spontaneous reaction of some act of sabotage or an attempted assissination.
Q. Do you, on the basis of your activity in Berlin, know of any cases of intensified methods during interrogations in the occupied western territories?
A. Officially we only knew at the time about the Norwegian White Book which caused an investigation in Oslo and then it became the basis of our reports to the Reichsguehrer and it was intended to have the result of having Terboven recalled.
Q. What do you know about the deportation of French statesmen and generals to Germany? This particular deportation had been ordered by the Reichsfuehrer in connection with the higher SS and police leaders in France. The Secret State Police office, Gestapo Amt, did not know anything beforehand and was confronted with the directive that Prime Minister Reynaud and Minister Mandel should be put into prison cells. The Gestapo office, after lengthy reports, succeeded in getting different type quarters for the French statesmen and for these who were later transferred to Germany there were better quarter from the beginning.
Q. Do you have any knowledge about the facts that one of the French generals who was at the fortress Koenigstein in November 1944 was to be executed upon the orders of Panzinger?
A. No.
Q. And that by having the general transported from Koenigstein and then having him shot because he allegedly tried to escape? I put before you the documents which have just been presented by the American Prosecution, 4048-PS to 4052-PS, and I want you to state your opinion as to what you know about this. I only have an English copy but the witness understands English.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in your document book?
DR. MERKEL: No, my Lord, it is not in the document book and I could not out it in because these documents have just been presented by the American Prosecution during the last session. The numbers are 4048 to 4052-PS. They have just been presented during the cross-examination of Dr. Best. BY DR. MERKEL:
Q. Witness, I believe it is not necessary for you to read all the documents now. I only want you to get orientated from these documents and answer my question, that is, as to whether anything is known to you about this incident?
A. The dates are January, 1945, December 1944 and during that time I was in Denmark and I was no longer in the Secret State Police office, the Gestapo office.
Q. Generally, was the deportation of foreign workers to Germany carried out by the Gestapo?
A. No. I recall from my activity in their office that even the arrests of escaped workers in the occupied western territories were not carried out by the Gestapo. I remember particularly that in 1940 Reichscommissar Seyss-Inquart stressed specifically that such things should not be done.
Q. Was the so-called "Nacht und Nevel" order brought before you in order to make it known to the Gestapo?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you agree with that decree?
A. The "Nacht und Nebel" decree had been issued by the OKW together with who Reichsminister of Justice. The Gestapo office had nothing to do with the drafting of it. There were, in the way of police administration, great difficulties in the beginning because what had been committed abroad had to be clarified in Germany and for these reasons I rejected it in principle as being too hard to carry out.
Then there was another damaging consequence. The members of the family did not know anything about theperson arrested and this was principally against our tendencies.
These difficulties arose immediately when the first people were arrested and transferred to the State Police office, who had to clarify the, proceedings. The result therefrom was that innocent people were brought to Germany. We succeeded at the time, that despite this decree, these people should be returned to their native country.
Q. The so-called "Kugel" decree, the commando order, were these orders applied in Denmark during your activity?
A. No.
Q. What do you know about the application of these decrees in other occupied western territories?
A. All these were decrees which had been issued after I left Berlin and therefore I could not say anything about it.
Q. Would you know whether the Gestapo in the occupied western territories had special groups in the prisoner of war camps so as to select those who were racially undesirable or politically undesirable.
A. I cannot say anything about that because that decree was not known to me before the surrender.
Q. Were the decrees mentioned decrees of a State Police nature? These decrees did not emanate from the State Police but they were ordered from above. The normal State Police chiefs therefore, could not expect that one day such decree would be issued and beyond that, on the basis of secret regulations, the contents of those decrees were really not known to the great majority of State Police officials.
Dr. MERKEL: I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENTS Do the Prosecution wish to cross examine ? BY M. MONNERAY:
Q. Dr. Hoffman, you were a member of the nazi party, were you not ?
A. Yes.
Q. Since when ?
A. Since 1 December 1932
Q. And when you became a candidate for entering the Civil service, or the police, you indicated that you were a member of the Party, did you not ?
A. I beg your pardon; I did not quite understand the question.
Q. When you became a candidate for the civil service, and especially for the police, you indicated that you were a member of the nazi party, did you not ?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. You said that there was no relationship between the Gestapo and the Nazi Party, did you not ?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Is it correct, though, that civil servants in the police were subjected to political screening ?
A. I did not quite understand the sense of the question, I am sorry, I did not quite understand the question.
Q. "Political screening" is an special term which you probably known and which in German is known as "Politische Beurteilung".
A. Yes.
Q. It is true, is it not, that important officials of the police, before being nominated, were subjected to this political screening of the Party ?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the circular of the Party Chancellory according to which the authorities of the Nazi Party are not obliged to consult the USC slips when it is a question of promoting them ?
A. Each official who entered was scrutinized for his political attitude, and each one who was promoted, was, of course, also investigated.
Q. You were a member of the SS, were you not ?
A. In November 1939 when the coordination decree came out, I became a member of the SS.
Q. To enter the SS, you had to send in an application, did you not ?
A. We were directed by the office to make a formal application.
Q. And this application was similarly subjected to a political screening was it not ?
A. I assume so.
Q. And when you were in Duesselforf, as delegate of the Chief of the Gestapo services, you had under yourorders some Boundary Police Commissariat.
A. Yes.
Q. Is it exact that the Commissariat had exactly the same functions as the Foreign Offices of the Gestapo ?
A. No, not in the beginnings In the beginning they had only the task of the Border police. at the period when I was there, the political tasks of the police were taken care of by the Landrat.
Q. You are speaking of what period ?
A. I speak of the period of 1939 to 1940 -- until September 1940.
Q. I remind you of a circular of the Hessen and Reich Ministry of the Interior of 8 may 1947, published in the bulletin of 1937 of the Ministry of the Interior, Reich and Hessen, page 754, which stipulates in its third article that the police tasks at the frontier of the Reich are taken over by the boundary Commissariats and Officers. That is correct, is it not ?
A. Yes, that is correct. We had to distinguish between the inner political tasks and the tasks of counter-intelligence up there. The tasks of counterintelligence, of course, were handled by the Border police, but not the tasks of the inner political nature because the officials of the Border Police die not have the necassary training to make criminal investigations independently.
Q. The same paragraph continues that the boundary commissariates of the Police are considered as being Gestapo offices and are assimilated to the "Aussendienst Stelle"
A. I can not understand the word. Oh, yes -- "Aussendienst Stelle". The Border Police was subordinated to the State Police office, Department III, which was dealing, with counter-intelligence tasks because counter-intelligence tasks had as an object to counter efforts from abroad and so it goes without saying that the Border Police had the primary tasks of all police units along the border. I have explained that the Border Police essentially had nothing to do with inner political tasks of the police,
Q. You said to us just now that the shipments to concentration camps were done on the request of the local Gestapo services. Is that true ?
A. If an individual was to be sent to concentration camp, the Gestapo office had to make a demand, and then the Gestapo office or the RSHA-if they decided for protective custody, then the individual could be sent to the concentration camp, because that was done along the usual channels of police administration.
Q. So it is a fact, witness, that shipments to concentration camps were made on the initiative of the local offices of the Gestapo ?
A. On the demand of the local office of the Gestapo/
Q. And the local Gestapo services made these requests and at the same time arrested the individual ?
A. Yes.
Q. These Frontier Offices, did they equally have the right to make request for shi pment to cencentration camps ? a. The Border Police had only the task to arrest at the border. They did not make any decisions independently. If the Border Police arrested an individual, all they did was to send the report to the Gestapo office, which continued to deal with the matter. The officials of the border Police were essentially beginners who could not carry out any investigation of a general nature. The Border Police office was not an independent office that could make such requests. At first the Border Police were in no way different from these before 1933.
Q. I would like to show you, witness, a document which is nevertheless of 1944 and which comes from the Gestapo office.
That is 1,063-PS. Is it a fact that this letter was also sent to the Frontier Commissariat to indicate to them that there was no reason to send arrested Eastern workers to Buchenwald concentration camp ?
A. Excuse me; I did not quite understand the question because I was reading.
commissariat indicates the -
Q That can be seen from the contents. It is clear, of course, that the State Police office also sends its principal directives to the border. The contents of this letter deal with the treatment of individuals which had been caught and that, of course, occurred also along the border. That letter has to do with the fact that a police office, if it has caught any such individuals, has to transfer or pass on all information when they pass on the entire case. shipment to concentration camps which would come from frontier offices have to pass via Duesseldorf?
A Yes. of course. To my knowledge, the Border Police Commissariat could not have any direct connection with the Gestapo main office. file concentration requests for shipment to concentration camps?
A Only to the State Police Office at Duesseldorf. But I must add that the document was dated 1944, and that since 1940 I was no more in Germany in Gestapo work, and I cannot say whether there were any changes concerning the mission of the Border Police Commissariat during my absence. This document does not give any cause to assume so, because I assume that the same decree was also sent to the Landrat.
THE PRESIDENT: In general, the Tribunal thinks that there is no use cross examining the witness about documents which aren't his own documents and about which he knows nothing. You can put the documents in. BY M. MONNERAY:
Q Do you know the institution of the secret police? terms, the so-called communal criminal police.
A secret field police. What institution is known to me, yes.
from the police? composed of several police officials, but mostly soldiers which had been ordered to do that job, and the groups of the Secret Field Police, Geheime Feldpolizei, which were transferred to Denmark. I estimate that within one unit there were about ten to fifteen per cent of officials, whereas the rest were soldiers which had been ordered for that duty and before that never had anything to do with the police. the police? officials, as far as I can remember, mostly officials from the criminal police,
M. MONNERAY: With the permission of the Tribunal I will hand in two documents, which are affidavits F964 and F965, which become exhibits RF 1535 and RF 1536, These documents indicate for two regions of France that the great majority of the officers of this Military Police came from the police originally. BY M. MONNERAY: over to the SIPO?
A I didn't understand, that question. ever by the Army to the SIPO?
A That varied in the different territories. As far as I know, the hostages in France were shot by *---* forces; in Norway, upon order of the Reich Commissioner Terboven, as much as I know, by the SIPO, the Secret Police. I could not say how it was in Belgium. how rigorous these interrogations were?
A You mean reports during my term of office? out what had been printed in the Norwegian White Book. Apart from that, nothing was known to me.
M. MONNERAY: I will allow myself to submit to the Tribunal a report from the Commander of the SIPO and SD of July 6, 1944 from Marseilles concerning arrests of members of the French resistance, of the interrogation of these members, and of the ensuing decease. This is document F 979, which becomes 1537 RF. With the permission of the Tribunal I would like to read an extract of this document.
"The arrested men from one to sixteen were killed -- "
THE PRESIDENT: What page of the document? M. MONNERAY: On Page 2 of the French translation, Mr. President, an extract.
"The arrested from one to sixteen, as well as 43 prisoners *---* under number 16 were killed in an attempted escape on 13 June 1944. Number 13 and 15 were killed in the neighborhood of Salon on 15 June 1944 in an attempted escape. Number 17 is still necessary to the special section AF." And further on, "Number 21 died in our hands." BY M. MONNERAY: Gestapo services in Berlin were opposed to it. submitted as PS 504. reasons, were against that decree. But since it was a decree which has been ordered and issued by the leadership of the state, of course the decree had to be carried out by the State Police just as it had to be carried out by other offices. rigorous solution? solution, hadn't it?
or the decree in general? from you that you should offer a solution to the problem of knowing whether the parents of a deceased Frenchman had to be advised concerning his decease or not, and also I ask youwhether it is true that you chose the most strict and rigerous solution? sent by the OKW, and that on the part of the Gestapo office the answer was given as far as it was necessary on the basis of this decree. with your proposal? the application of the Nacht und Nebel decree?
A That was not my task. I had as minsterial instanz only to pass on instructions to these beneath me, and not to others.
Q Did you have any connection with the concentration camp services? when I was charged with the care for the French ministers, because first Prime Minister Reynaud and Mandel lived in the cells of Oranienburg, and I had to see them there frequently in order to find out what they needed. And the same thing was the case later with the concentration camp Buchenwald where M. Blum and M. Mandel were quartered in a small house, a shack, in the settlement where prisoners were quartered. And concerning the castle of Gutter, the guards had been posted there taken from units of the concentration camp Dachau. Those were the only cases, the only connection that I had indirectly with the administration of concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: It is time to adjourn.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
(The Tribunal reconvened at 1400 hours).
THE PRESIDENT: It will perhaps be convenient to counsel for the organizations to know that the Tribunal proposes to take all the oral evidence, by witnesses for the organizations, first, and then that they should comment upon their documents afterwards, because some of the documents and many of the affidavits have not yet been gotten ready. I think that will probably be for the convenience of the organizations. one o'clock. BY M. MONNERAY:
Q. You told us a while ago that the protection of certain French political people had nothing to do with the question of concetration camps.
A. No.
Q. Did you make out rules and regulations for the concentration camps?
A. I do not recall.
M. MONNERAY: I should like to show the witness, with the permission of the Tribunal, Document PS-2521, which will become Exhibit RF-1538. This document is not in the document book. BY M. MONNERAY:
Q. On page 2 of this document, we find an extract of the Nacht und Nebl decree for the use of the concentration camp organi zation. This document comes from Office 44.
A. Yes. That is a translation of the Nacht und Nebel decree to Inspector of K.L. I cannot remember when the execution of the Nacht und Nebel decree in K.L. was being carried through. I assume that the reason was the difficult execution of this matter in the various departments.
Q. This document is signed by you, is it not?
A. By Dr. Hoffmann; and there is a seal there, too. It is quite possible that I signed that.
Q. This is not a document made out in your office?
A. According to appearance, I must assume so.
Q. It is your office that gave instruction and explanations on that decree?
A. Yes. That is quite clear, and that was never disputed.
Q. You told us this morning that the direction of the State was not carried out according to the ideas of the police?
A. In many cases, not according to our knowledge; that is correct.
Q. Do you consider that the subject matter for the Nacht and Nebel decree conforms to police ideas, or does it go against that?
A. No.
Q. That is to say that you think it goes against the conceptions of proper belief?
A. Yes. I have stated that this decree was given out without any suggestion by the police and, in my statement concerning our conception of the origin and the fitting of the military organizations, that this decree was not in accordance with these matters. If, however, this decree was given out by the highest State leadership, then, of course, the police had to act according to these directions and principles set down, and the police could only try to carry through its opinions and conceptions against the background of this decree.
Q. In other words, whether the Gestapo approved or not of these decisions, they took measures to apply them?
A. Yes, indeed.
1 Aug A LJG 13-1 executions?
A No. However, I did hear that in one sector, which did not fall in my jurisdiction, regulations of that sort did exist.
Q In what district was that? tions. the right of the Gestapo to carry out executions? decrees of that sort. become RF-1539. It is a document which is signed by Kaltenbrunner and which was sent to all departments of the Gestapo, for their information only, and to your office, IV-D. my department. IV-D, was the group in which all occupied countries were unified. This document is addressed to the Gruppenleiter IV-D, not to 4 Dora 4. This document therefore was not sent to my department. Since in the western sector no executions were carried out, for that reason the document was not sent to my department. that the Gestapo could carry out executions? details about the handling of this problem in practice.
Q Do you know anything about the activities of Iechmann? of the Jewish branch in the Reichsicherheitshauptamt, RSHA. activities in occupied territories, did it? in the occupied territories. In these reports, for example, the deportation of Jews was reported on. I have already stated that the fact of the Jewish deportations I learned of only through 1 Aug A LJG 13-2 these reports.