Q. You therefore admit that you say that if the output of one worker is smaller than that of another, his food rations must be smaller? Is that what I understand?
A. No, it is not right to interpret it that way. I should like to explain the system again. In Germany each worker received his ration as set down at the Reich Food Minister. He received his quota as set down, and in addition to that, there were special bonusses as a reward for service. At the beginning, this bonus was not granted to, say, a Russian worker, and this is the matter we are dealing with here and not with starving or cutting of food rations, per so, but rather the additional bonus for service.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn new, (A recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, the report is made that the defendant Raeder is absent.
THE PRESIDENT: MR. Herzog, do you anticipate being able to conclude your cross examination before half past four?
MR. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President. I think that I might even finish before that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY MR. HERZOG:
Q. Defendant Sauckel, I offered in evidence Document 806, which is an account of the conference which you held on 15 and 16 July 1944 at Wurzburg with a regional labor official.
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. Do you remember that during this conference a question of the discipline to be imposed upon the workers was raised?
A. It is possible that during this conference -- or, rather, conferences -- that this question was discussed. I can not remember. I did not participate in all the sessions.
Q. Do you know Minister Counsellor Dr. Sturm?
A. Counsellor Sturm is not personally know to me.
Q. Do you remember a declaration made at the conference of the 15 and 16 July 1944 by Dr. Sturm?
A. I can not remember any particular statements from Dr. Sturm.
Q. I shall pass to you once more the minutes of that meeting, Number RF 16, Document 806. Will you please look at page 25 of the German text. It is also page 25 of the French version. Do you see it? I read the first line:
"Sturm gave the following report on his territory 'Discipline of Workers'."
I shall pass to the next page, where I read:
"We are working with the Gestapo--"
THE PRESIDENT: Where is this?
M. HERZOG: Document 806
THE PRESIDENT: I know it is 806, but I thought you told us that they followed on.
M. HERZOG: 810, sir. 810.
THE PRESIDENT: I have got that.
M. HERZOG: Page 25.
THE PRESIDENT: yes, go on.
MR. HERZOG: With your permission, I will begin again.
"Sturm gave the following report on his territory concerning the discipline of the workers."
Page 25:
"We are working with the Gestapo and the concentration camps, and we are in that way certain to be going in the right direction." BY M. HERZOG:
Q. Did you make any observations when that declaration was made?
A. I did not hear that statement myself. It is a specialized question, or technical question. I am seeing the record for the first time in my life. There were several parellel meetings, and I did not hear it myself, but it is a matter of course, that some sort of ruling regarding penalties had to be made, in keeping with the worker's law.
Perhaps I may read to you from the same document, the beginning:
"Employment and pay arrangements can only be possible on the strength of a healthy workers' morale. The necessary regulations for securing such morale, based on a disciplinary and penal right, require unified handling, the details of which will be dealt with in a subsequent meeting of the legal experts at Wurzburg," and that, of course, is not one of my departments.
Q. I will ask you what you think of Dr. Sturm's declaration?
A. Subsequently, after Dr. Sturm's declaration -- I come to the end of the first page.
Q. Will you please answer my question first? Please answer my question. What do you think of this declaration?
A. I did not know the statement, but he comes from some authority, and I don't know whether it is the Ministry of Labor or some other authority, but I didn't -
THE PRESIDENT: Watch the light. Don't you see the light in front of you?
Q. Do you not remember that agreement reached between you and the Chief of Police SS to handle through the Gestapo those workers who were guilty of giving up their work?
A. Well, there had to be a department in Germany which dealt with worker who left their place of work without being entitled to, which could get hold of them again, and it couldn't be done by any other department than the police. There wasn't another department for that. more from page 1, where it saws that apart from that, the number of penalties decreed by the authorities against workers, such as reprimands, fines, concentration camps, and legal penalties, were cery, cery small indeed. At least the number of penalties which were pronounced in connection with the prosecution were .01 to.02 in one thousand.
Q. What has that to do with the questions which I asked you and the question of your relations with the Gestapo?
A. But there wasn't any other authority except police in Germany who could carry out arrests, detention. They were entitled to that by law.
Q. You admit, then, that it was on agreement with you that the Gestapo proceeded to the arrest of workmen who absented themselves from what you call their work contact, and they were sent to the concentration camps?
A. Not to concentration camps, no, but into the custody which was prescribed. The penalties were decreed in accordance with certain regulations and I know of nothing else.
M. HERZOG: I submit in evidence Document 2200-PS, which becomes RF-1519. It is a service memorandum of the Cologne Gestapo addressed to the police officials at the Cologne and AAchen district. It refers to the fight against those foreign workers who had absented themselves from their work.
Mr. President, it is the fourth document from the end in my document book. I read from it:
"The number of absentees is considerable, and their presence in the Reich is more disquieting than the fact that they absent themselves from work, for this may conceal an act of sabotage. Henceforth, according to an agreement reached between the head of the SS and Police and the General Plenipotentiary for Manpower, all complaints having relation to absenteeism will be competently dealt with by the Secret Police, Gestapo.
"As soon as the works concerned have advised the police, the police will proceed to the necessary inquiry. The police authorities of the Kreis will be authorized by me to five warning to the absentees and to hold them in custody, by way of warning, up to three days. Directives will be followed, especially as regards the nationality of the delinquents.
"In more serious cases, the papers referring to the case will be sent for a decision to the Gestapo in the Aachen and Cologne district, which, being informed, will order the necessary measures, detention, sending to reeducation camp for workers, or concentration camp." BY MR. HERZOG:
Q. Do you recognize that it was with your agreement that the factory workers were, on the one hand, handed over to the Gestapo, and in the second place, handed over to concentration camps?
A. I did not deny it, but this only happened as stated in the first paragraph. If the population was upset through perpetrations by these workers, in serious cases, or when there were breaches of contract, it was done. There was nobody except the police capable of looking for such people, and I find that the procedure is perfectly correct.
Q. You find that it is a correct manner of procedure to hand over the workers to the Gestapo and concentration camps? I take note of your answer.
A. Only in the case of serious crimes. It says "in serious cases" in the document. It was the demand which they made to me.
Q. At what period did you have knowledge of those atrocities which were committed in concentration camps?
A. I can say to the best of my conscience that the cruelties which have been mentioned here in connection with concentration camps were not known to us.
Q. Do you think that it was the same with all the Hitlerite chiefs?
A. I can't speak for the others. I myself did not know of such measures which I despised to the utmost myself, and which I have heard here.
Q. For instance, do you think that the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler wasaware of the atrocities which were committed in the concentration camps?
A I can't say whether the Reichsfuehrer SS knew of them, whether he caused them. During my life, I have had very little, in fact, next to no talks with the Reichsfuehrer because there were considerable personal tensions between us. underwent yesterday, that you visited the concentration camp of Buchenwald, is that so?
A Yes, I did either in 1937 or 1938. I can't tell you that from memory now. commission, is that so? photographs of the concentration camp in Buchenwald?
A No, I don't know. M. HERZOG: I offer that album in evidence to the Tribunal under No. RF-1520. It bears the number D-565. It is a document of the British Delegation. BY M. HERZOG:
Q Do you recognize yourself in that photograph?
Q With whom are you there?
Q Himmler? for Thuringia, visited this place in the company of the Reichsfuehrer SS and you spoke to the director of the camp without knowing what was happening there?
A I can't tell you when this picture was taken and whether it was taken in the camp itself. I went there once, or rather, I was once outside the camp together with the Reichsfuehrer SS,; there was a large site. But I was never inside the camp together with the Reichsfuehrer SS. I was only there once, as I have already told you, with an Italian commission.
At any rate, this is in no way connected with an inspection. You can see a group, and I can't quite remember the occasion, M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will make up its mind.
I offer in evidence, under No. 1521, the certificate establishing the origin of this album. BY MR. HERZOG: expulsion of Jews from industry. You said this:
"I never had anything to do with it myself. I had nothing to do with the question of the eviction of Jews from industry. I had no influence in this matter. It was a mystery to me."
Can youconfirm this declaration?
A That is perfectly correct. I didn't say it was a secret to me; I said that to the best of my recollection I had nothing to do with it. thought you could contest. One of the points that you raised against this document was that this document dated from 1942 and that it dealt with questions whichdated before the time of your appointment.
Did I understand you correctly? nominated.
Q I offer in evidence Document I-156, which becomes RF-1522. It is a letter written under the authority of Plenipotentiary General of the Four Year Flan, and addressed to you. It is dated the 26th of March 1943. It is addressed to the presidents of the land-labor offices, and it deals with the question of the eviction of Jews. It begins thus:
"In agreement with me and the Reichsminister for Armament and. Munitions, the Reichsufhere SS, for reasons of state security has removed, since the and of February, these Jews who were working as free workers and has transferred them to a place where they are locked up and where they can continue their work In order not to endanger the efficacy of this measure, I have avoided notifying them of this measure beforehand, and I have only notified those labor offices in whose district there is a large number of Jewish manpower.
"So as to have a general view of the effect of those measures upon the commitment of labor, I ask youto let me have, as of the 31st of March, 1943, a return showing how many Jews were removed from their work and a return of their replacement by others which has become necessary.
"From the number of those establishments indicated and of the Jews employed by them, one should take into account the situation which existed before the evacuation". or in the matter of the eviction of Jews and their replacement by foreign workers?
A. Once again I want to state with emphasis in this connection, that this document, this letter, has never been put before me. It appears to have no signature here, and once more it comes from an inferior sub-department in the Reich Ministry of Labor at Sahrland strasse 96. Some official has dealt with it, but I myself can under no circumstances remember that I have ever had knowledge of the letter. I did not write it, it does not come from my office, and it has been written on behalf of someone else, because the signature is not mine.
Q. Will you please look on the left in the corner. It says: "The general delegate to manpower", Are you trying to throw the responsibility on one of your subordinates?
A. No, I do not want to do that. I merely want to say that the letterhead is one of a department, but that the letter has never been known to me. This is the first time in my life I have seen it, and I myself have not had it prepared. I can say that under my oath.
Q. Another question. With this letter is a request concerning the replacement of the expelled Jews. Who else but you could have anything to do with this, you who were the general delegate as to manpower?
A. My department. I told my defense counsel yesterday that it was a matter of course that my department had to furnish replacements if workers were taken away from one firm, be it through calling up or other measures, something which I did not always, of course, hear about in detail.
Q. You are not answering my question.
A. Yes, I have answered your question exactly,
Q. No. The fact that this letter contains a request relating to the replacement of workers, is that not proof that it comes from your department, you being the general plenipotentiary for manpower?
A. Such a request could not come from my department. The evacuation of Jews was entirely the responsibility of the Reichsfuehrer SS. I only had troubles because of such measures as it was very difficult to replace workers, and I was not in any way interested in it.
A. In short, you dispute that you ever proposed a particular plan of work for Jews.
Q. That is just what I am denying. I have nothing to do with it, it was not my task.
Q. Would you please refer once more to document 810, which I offered under 418. Will you look at page 16, under the heading: "Gauleiter Sauckel". I read:
A. I have not got the document available -- yes, I have.
Q. It must have been passed to you about two minutes ago.
A. Will you please give me the number again.
Q. Document 801, but perhaps it is not marked on the photostat. Have you got that document?
A. Yes.
Q. You have it? Under the heading "Gauleiter Sauckel", I read -it is on page 16 of the document:
"As to Sauckel -- that man Sauckel showed himself very annoyed when it was said that the internees in interment camps and the Hungarian Jews constituted the best manpower as regards constructional work. This is positively injust because they furnish an average of 65 to 70 percent of the work of a normal worker, never one hundred percent. Besides, it is unworthy of the German worker and of the moral code of the German workers to put them in the same category as those dregs and traitors of the country. To an internee in a concentration camp and a Jew, work is not a title of nobility. One therefore, cannot permit things to arrive at the point that detainees in concentration camps and Jews will became 'articles' in demand. In workshops and yards internees of concentration camps and Jews must be kept apart from the remainder of the workers and also foreigners, under ail circumstances.
"Gauleiter Sauckel also pointed out finally that as a matter of fact he did not object to the employment of Jews and of detainees, but only against their exaggerations, as outlined above". your own life as a workman, what you thou ht of what you said, namely as to work not being a title of nobility. paragraph is a very brief and free representation of the fact. It is a shorthand note. I opposed this because I assumed inmates of concentration camps would be traitors. I could not have assumed anything else, that is, except that people who went there should not be taken to the same places of work with others, that is, including Jews. But it was not I who acted in connection with this employment. There were workers of the Reichsfuehrer SS, and on the occasion of the Fuehrer conference, the conference of leaders, I spoke in the interests of ordinary workers and unpunished foreign workers. I fought against their joint employment in that connection and that was all.
Q. I ask you this question again. What did you mean when you said that to the detainee in a concentration camp and a Jew, work is not a title of nobility? blemished people should not be compared with the work of blemished workers. There is a difference whether I would employ prisoners or whether I would employ free workers, and I wanted to see that observed.
Q. So in that way Jews were internees, were they not?
A. In this case, the Jews were detainees of the Reichsfuehrer SS. Actually, I regret the expression.
Q. You dispute, therefore, that this phrase is an expression of your hostility which you manifested against Jews, for instance?
A. At that time I was, of course, against the Jews, but I was not concerned with that employment. I was against that, that this employment, these employees of the Reichsfuehrer SS should not be mixed up as in this case.
Q. Did you ever conduct any propaganda against the Jews?
A. I did conduct propaganda against Jews as far as they had positions in the Reich, which I was convinced should have been occupied by Germans.
Q. I will submit to you an article which you wrote in the month of June 1945, at a period when I think in your Germany there were not so very many Jews still occupying important posts. This article appeared in a newspaper which you published in the Gau of Thuringia, PS 857, which I offer to the Tribunal as 1523. I shall read extracts from this article.
(Witness handed document).
First extract from page one, column one, last paragraph but one:
"Now the holders of the best virtues, the sailors, the aviators and soldiers of Great Britain can not stop the Jewish plague which is making such rapid ravages on the body of their country".
Then, on page two, column two, last paragraph but one:
"There exists no example in the history of the world showing that anything of importance may have been created in the course of centuries by Jews and those who were corrupted by their manners and their habits". plague?
Q I ask you again my question. What do you understand by the "Jewish plague" to the nation. That was my view.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will draw its own conclusions, Mr. President, I have no further questions. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: of General Plenipotentiary for the utilization of manpower. Tell me how many foreign workers were employed in German economy and industry at the end of the war? there were about five million foreign workers in Germany. defense. I believe that number applies not to the moment of the capitulation of Germany but to the date of 24 July, 1942. I will quote somewhat different data on that subject and will use your own documents. You were nominated General Plenipotentiary on 21 March, 1942. On 27 July, 1942, -- that is to say three months later -- you submitted to Hitler and Goering your first report. In this report you stated that from the first of April to the 24th of July, 1942, the mobilization quota of 1,600,000 persons was surpassed by you. Do you confirm this number?
A I quoted that figure and as far as I can remember that wasn't only including foreigners but also German workers. population of the occupied territories evacuated to Germany up to the 24th of July, 1942, numbered 5,124,000 persons. Is that number exact? Do you confirm it? the case of all neutral and western and other allied nations there was a continuous exchange, because these workers worked either six months, nine months, or one year, during which time they remained in Germany and at the end of which contract that had been agreed on they returned to their countries. That is why these figures of that time may be correct; but they could have increased con siderably because there was this continuous exchange which you have to take into consideration.
ted to Germany numbered 5,124,000 persons to the date of the 24th July, 1942, is that so?
A If it says so in the document, then it may be true. It is possible; but it probable that this takes into account the deployed prisoners of war. I can't say without facts, figures.
Q I will show you this and other documents referring to this matter later. On the 1st of December, 1942, you compiled a summary report on the utilization of manpower by December, 1942. In this summary you quote a figure referring to the number of workers assingned to German war industries from the 1st of April to the 30th of Nove mber, 1942, and these workers number 2,640,000. On page 8 of your report you come to the conclusion that by the 30th of November, 1942, in the territory of the Reich, 7,000,000 persons were employed. Do you confirm these figures?
I can't confirm the figure without documents and evidence. Again, I assume that French and other prisoners of war were once more included. employed, even if you include the prisoners of war, is that figure exact? Will you now say how many workers were brought to Germany from occupied territories during the year 1943? Tell me that number. amounted to one and a half to two millions. Various programs had been compiled in that connection which were continuously being rectified. 1943, approximately, You needn't give an exact figure. Approximately.
A I have already said one and a half to two millions. I can't be more exact.
Q I understand. Do you remember what task was assigned to you for the year 19 Germans; but of those 4,000,000 only 3,000,000 were supplied, and of those 2,100, 000 were Germans and 900,000 foreigners.
Q Now can you give us a general summary of your activities? How many persons were brought to Germany from the occupied territories during the war and how many were employed in economy and industry at the end of the war?
5,000,000 foreign workers in Germany at the end of the war. Several million workers were returned to neutral and Allied and Western countries during the war and they had to be replenished again and again, which was the cause for those now programs that were made. That is the explanation, that those workers who were already there before my time and those who were brought in did reach the figure of 7,000,000, but during the war there were once more several millions who flowed back to their home countries.
Q And also, a large number perished as a result of slave labor. I do not doubt that for a moment. In your documents you probably meant real manpower and not those who perished or these who were absent. Could you tell us how many were brought to Germany from occupied territories during the war? What numbers were brought there, actually?
Q Five million?
Q You continue to assert that that is so? by my statistical department and as far as I can remember, there were five million workers in Germany, because workers continuously returned, The experts of the department can give you a better answer than L. The contracts were either six or nine months, you see.
THE PRESIDENT: How many were brought into Germany, how many foreign workers, during the whole of the war? Is that the question you are asking?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Yes, it is.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your answer to that?
THE WITNESS: I have already stated that, including the workers who were there before my time, before I came into office, and including those who were there at the end, there may have been about five millions. In accordance with my material, there were five millions in the end, because the others had gone back.
THE PRESIDENT: yes, but that is not what you are being asked. You are being asked:
How many persons were brought to Germany from foreign countries during the whole of the war? You say there were five million at the end of the war, and there were constant changes in the preceding years. It follows that there must have been more than five million people brought to Germany in the course of a year.
THE WITNESS: Including the changes, I would estimate seven million, but I can't give you the exact figure because the figure which existed before my time is something I don't know reliably. At any rate, there must have been millions who returned home. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. In November of 1942 you quoted a figure of seven million of imported labor.
A. Workers employed, and that includes prisoners of war, in 1942
Q. Yes, including prisoners of war, I understand. Is that right, seven million by the 30th of November?
A. I can't tell you for certain. It may be correct, but I can't tell you without evidence.
Q. I will show you the document tomorrow. Today, in answering my question, you said that during 1943, two million further workers were imported.
A. In 1943?
Q. Yes, in 1943.
A. Yes, one and a half to two million, I said.
Q. That is to say, seven plus two makes nine in all. Is that correct.
A. No. I said expressly that some went back all the time, and in the new forces I didn't even count the prisoners of war.
A. You don't seem to understand me. I am speaking of those who were brought to Germany from the occupied territories, who passed through your hands. It is of absolutely no importance how many of them perished in Germany or how many left. That does not change the total number of workers brought to German territory from abroad.
If, therfore, by the 30th of November 1942, there were seven million persons in Germany, and, according to you, in 1943 two further million were brought in, and in 1944, as you just said, nine hundred thousand were again brought in, then, according to you, the total number of workers imported to Germany during the war must have amounted to ten million.
Is that right?
A. I can say only that with the reservation that I don't know how many were actually therebefore my time. That may be correct as a guess, and it may include all prisoners of war who were employed, or who were working. However, you have to deduct the prisoners of war from the civilian workers who were introduced into the country.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjoutned until 31 May 1946, at 100 hours).
BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. Defendant Sauckel, yesterday I did not get a satisfactory answer to my question as to how many foreign workers were imported to Germany from occupied territories.
Now you will see the document No. 1296-PS, which is your report dated 27th of July 1942. Besides, Document No. 1739-PS will also be handed to you. It is a summary of your activities until the 30th of November 1942. number of foreign workers imported to Germany, including prisoners of war. The loss of manpower has no importance in this case, as this will not modify the numbers of people brought to Germany. They were brought to Germany, but later either perished as a result of unbearable slave labor, or else were returned as incapable of work. Did you see those documents? Have you got those document?
A. Yes, but please may I have permission to look at them and look at the figures?
Q. Please do so.
A. I haven't finished. There is much in this document.
Q. But it is not necessary to weight yourself with the contents of all the documents. In Document No. 1296-PS, on the last page of the report, at the end of the page, you will find Count 5, which is entitled "General Summary". Have you found that part?
A. No, I haven't quite. Which document are you referring to?
Q. Have you found it?
A. I have found that passage, yes.
Q. These are summary figures, 12,000,094 people.
THE PRESIDENT: Twelve million, did you say?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: No. 5,124,000 persons.
THE PRESIDENT: It must have been an error in translation.
A. I must state with emphasis, in connecting with this document, that the figure here, 5,124,000 is contained on it, and it is true it is 1,576,000 prisoners of war, but they cannot be counted amongst civilian workers. As far as their administration and their accomodations were concerned, they were commanded by the army and were taken care of by the general system for prisoners of war in the various districts.
Q. They were utilized by German industry. Please read after me Count 5, "General Summary of Mobilized Workers in Germany for Manpower".
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Now, take a look at -
A. Please will you let me explain that those prisoners of war were not looked after or accomodated by the firms in question or the German Workers Front, but that they were accomodated in the camps which were under the jurisdiction of the general system for prisoners of war in the district in question. For that reason, they are not included in any statistics as civilian workers.
Q. As far as prisoners of war working in the organization, I will speak of that later. Actually, I am interested in knowing how many civilian workers and prisoners of war were working in German industry. Do you confirm this figure of 5,124,000. Is this figure an exact figure or not?
A. For that purpose it is a correct figure, but so that the Tribunal can get the exact picture of the procedure, I should like to have permission to refer to a very exact document. That is Document 1746-PS. That is an exact statement of the civilian workers from various countries and prisoners of war. The document deals with a time about six months later than this one, and the highest authorities in the Reich confirmed it.
It had been presented to the Fuehrer, too.
Will you please allow me to complete my statement. I am very politely asking you to. I must verify these matters completely. My conscientiousness demands that before the world. in page 7 of Document 1746 an exact statement of figures, and that shows 4,012,000 civilian workers, and 1,648,000 prisoners of war.