"1. The selection of its members Will be made in strict coordination with competent police and SD services which will screen the candidates especially from the point of view of their loyalty.
The selection will be made especially amongst the members of political movements favorable to a collaboration with Germany.
"2. ORGANIZATION OF THE PROTECTION CORPS. The central services of direction for the Protection Corps will be created in Paris and Brussels. The directors of these services will be designated by me" -- that is to say, by you, Defendant Sauckel.
"They will depend on my delegates in France for all police questions. The Protection Corps will be directed by the superior commander of the SS and by the police. The regional groups of the Protection Corps will depend on the commanders of German police forces, and the latter will receive their instructions from the Feldkonmandantur and from the recruiting offices for their participation in actions concerning labor.
"The German police and the services of the SD will be concerned with the instruction in police matters and the delegates of the Feldkommandantur; and the recruiting services will be given as much as necessary, in their opinion, of whatever instructions are necessary in the matter of the recruiting of labor.
"The members of the Protection Corps will not wear auniform; however, they will be armed with firearms.
"3. IMPLEMENTATION OF TASK: The members of the Protection Corps delegated to the recruiting offices of the Feldkommandantur will have to be employed in order that the execution of measures ordered will be ensured with a maximum of security. For example, these forces put at the disposal have to be informed immediately if Frenchmen who have been summoned by these various German offices have avoided these summonses. They have to discover the domiciles of these persons and bring them, according to the instructions of the chief of the German police for the collaboration of the French and German police forces.
"They will, moreover, have to track down immediately all those who have refused to appear when summoned, and other persons who have broken their contracts; all this in the interest of an effective executive power. And it would be good if the lists of persons summoned and recruited should be communicated to them in order to enable them to act immediately in cases where German orders have not been executed.
"It is to be presumed that a more effective implementation would be implementation by such immediate measures and by heavy punishment published immediately, than by any of the inquiries which have been followed up till now.
"Likewise, these members of the Protection Corps are expected to indicate isolated persons who are unemployed in order that they may be mobilized, and also denounce all business which have excess personnel, in order that their personnel may be taken away from them."
"Do you, Defendant Sauckel, still deny that you did not form such a league in France and Belgium? organizations, such a protective unit was set up so that on the one hand people who wanted to work could be protected, but on the other hand, the carrying through of administrative measures could be handled, and, in effect,that Frenchmen declare themselves ready and willing for this collaboration. any way, since this was for the alleviation of conditions.
Q I ask you to answer my question yes or no. Do you recognize that you set up this special police service?
set up. But the extent was very slight. those who were refractory to the forced labor services? That is correct for every occupied territory, and that applied to the entire world. The occupying force must keep order. applied against civil servants, for instance, who hindered your action? Laval I suggested the death penalty on an administrative basis in cases of very severe nature. foreseen in the case of civil servants? war industry all the labor force that was required for it? your mission before Minister Speer, Minister of Armaments and Munitions? instructions from the Fuehrer to meet the demands pushed by Minister Speer as far as it was possible for me to d o so. in recruiting foreign labor? at his disposal; but we were not agreed about the carrying out of this directive. For instance, we did not agree about the "blocked" enterprises in France.
Q We will see to that later. I ask you to tell me whether you always manage to satisfy the demands for workers which/were submitted to you by the different sections of the German economy?
A No. It was not my responsibility to do that. defendant Speer have to be satisfied by you with priority over all others?
Q Did not some instances take place in this respect? I mean, for instant did it not happen that some convoys of workers were turned away from their original destination on instructions from Speer? taken to different regions, or different enterprises. But whether that emanated from Mr. Speer or from an armament commission or from another agency, I do not know. It probably varied with various cases. destination of these convoys was sometimes changed in order to satisfy the demands of Speer's offices. Do you confirm this?
A Yes; but I mean something slightly different. It happened I might be informed about this. There were two kinds of changes, or deviation these which I did not know about and these which were agreed upon on request "red ticket"?
A The "red ticket" was applied to the demand for workers, mostly specialized or expert workers, to the demands which it was absolutely necessary to meet first and above all.
Q The system of the "red ticket" was applied to the armament industry was it not?
Speer and yourself? the nature of emergencies that had existed, however, there were changes and deviations such as lists or red tickets. Originally, there were just lists and the red ticket was added and that was decreed. you share with defendant Speer the responsibility of having constrain ed workers to work in German factories for the needs of the war which Germany was fighting against their Fatherland? cedure did not apply especially or generally to foreign workers but especially to German workers and German specialized labor.
Q But it is applied also to foreign workers? clared themselves ready, right to foreign workers as well. blocking of industries (betriebe) mean? duction or if it concerned itself with the production of luxury items These were the enterprises.
Q I don't think you well understood my question. What are "S" industries in France, for instance, the protected factories?
A Sperrbetriebe known as "S" enterprises---is that what you mean. Sperrbeywere enterprises or industries which produced for Speer and which had been agreed upon with the French Minister Echelenne, and they were block as far as labor recruitment was concerned. in order that he should abandon the practice of blocking industries? not make my will felt, that he should dispense with these enterprises.
Q Have you ever brought the debate up to Hitler and in-
sisted with Hitler? Should increase your powers at the expense of those of defendant Speer? but I asked for the reinstatement of the conditions as they appli* briefly and I am asking that I be permitted to explain this. May I please explain this? That the various departments under Speer demanded from me, were skilled laborers and there were many skilled laborers in the enterprises which Speer had earmarked for him as "S" enterprises and in Germany we were hard put; instead of having skilled French laborers, we had to use laborers instead. In each case, I had to produce workers and I considered it more reasonable for the German economy to produce the correct workers and not only workers who were unskilled.
M. HERZOG: I beg the Tribunal to turn back to document 381 the second part of 3819. It consists of two letters addressed, b* of then, to the Fuehrer by defendant Sauckel and by defendant Spe* and both are on this matter of the blocking of industries. I read first to the Tribunal some extracts of Sauckel's letter which happens to be the second.
THE PRESIDENT: Aren't they supposed to have been read alre*
M. HERZOG: I think they have already been read. I cannot affirm it but I believe so. They have already been handed to the Tribunal, document 3819-PS, as GB-310. If the Tribunal wishes, I can limit myself to very limited extracts.
THE PRESIDENT: You need not read them for the purposes of your question to the defendant. BY M. HERZOG:
Q In this letter, on page 27, you asked whether you cou* obtain in a general manner full powers for the national utilization of labor. Do you recognize that you asked for full powers in this manner; did you ask the Fuehrer for it?
A I haven't found the place yet but I could never ask for any blank authority but I asked that I could recruit as in the beginning but, as I stated before, I can't find the place that you are quoting.
A In this German text it says: "In this situation, it is necessary that I again have a free hand" and that means that I have a free hand once more the way I did have before the enterprises were instituted.
Q That is what I asked you to confirm to me. Have you asked the Fuehrer that your powers should be increased at the expense of those of your co-defendant Speer? Will you answer yes or no, please. powers or demanded it? I did demand this, for it was in favor of Speer to have that.
Q Did you ask for it?
Q And don't you remember that on other occasions, defendant Speer likewise asked that his powers should be increased at the expense of yours? relations between Speer and Goebbels after the fall of Stalingrad, made Speer want very much, that he should be beneath his authority. Can you confirm this? labor foresaw the employment of war prisoners? under the care of the Wehrmacht and were to be used for work and could be used. ing, your order No. 10, which foresaw the order of priority of work and gave priority to armament needs; was this order applicable to war prisoners?
applicable only to them and only on the basis of transplanting and as I mentioned yesterday, it was set forth in the order by the Wehrmacht and by me in a catalogue of workers. that it was applicable to war prisoners? was taken for granted. Is it exact that you came to an agreement in September 1943, between Dr. Ley and yourself for setting up a central inspection office f foreign workers? ble for the measures concerning the treatment of foreign workers? they are all available. foreign workers? issued with regard to the feeding of foreign workers. The actual feeding of those people was not the task of the labor authorities That was the responsibility of the enterprises or the camp command ant who had been charged therewith by the enterprises. . This document was submitted to the Tribunal under No. "USA 698. had it already yesterday in your hands. It consists of the minute of a meeting in the office of the General Director for the Utilizi tion of Labor; that is to say, yourself, on September 3, 1942. document is dated September 4.
M. HERZOG: This document, Mr. President, is at the end of document book, after document 827, towards the end of the book.
the last page of the French translation, I read:
THE PRESIDENT: The last page is 857, isn't it, the document called 857, the last page I have Got. It is just in front of 200-PS. Did you come across that? It is just after 1913-PS.
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, after 1915-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
M. HERZOG: I read: "The Fuehrer cannot understand that in the course of the combat for the future of Europe, it should exactly be the country which has to bear the principal weight of this fight which suffers the most from hunger--whereas, in France...."
THE PRESIDENT: It is on page one of it --- page four?
M. HERZOG: No, Mr. President, on page four of the French text; that is to say, on the last page. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "The Fuehrer cannot understand that in the course of the fight for the future of Europe, it should exactly be the country which has to bear the principal weight of this fight which suffers the most from hunger; whereas, in France, in Holland, in Hungary, in the Ukraine or anywhere else, one has not yet been able to speak of hunger. He desires that it should be the country in the future -- as for foreign workers living in the Reich, with the exclusion of workers from the East, one must little by little institute for them a system of rationing which corresponds to their output. It is not admissible that Dutchmen or lazy Italians should receive better rationing than an active worker from the East. The principle of output must apply equally to feeding." I ask you what you meant when you stated that the principle of output must apply equally to their feeding? to performances in the industries, there was an additional ration and I fought for the principle that these additional rations which had been assured to workers from the West, that the same extra rations would be assured to the workers from the East as well and that there were Western workers; that is, Dutch and Belgian workers should be cut down as the case demanded but not the normal ration and the normal ration which applied to the German people.
Q. You therefore admit that you say that if the output of one worker is smaller than that of another, his food rations must be smaller? Is that what I understand?
A. No, it is not right to interpret it that way. I should like to explain the system again. In Germany each worker received his ration as set down at the Reich Food Minister. He received his quota as set down, and in addition to that, there were special bonusses as a reward for service. At the beginning, this bonus was not granted to, say, a Russian worker, and this is the matter we are dealing with here and not with starving or cutting of food rations, per so, but rather the additional bonus for service.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn new, (A recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, the report is made that the defendant Raeder is absent.
THE PRESIDENT: MR. Herzog, do you anticipate being able to conclude your cross examination before half past four?
MR. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President. I think that I might even finish before that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY MR. HERZOG:
Q. Defendant Sauckel, I offered in evidence Document 806, which is an account of the conference which you held on 15 and 16 July 1944 at Wurzburg with a regional labor official.
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. Do you remember that during this conference a question of the discipline to be imposed upon the workers was raised?
A. It is possible that during this conference -- or, rather, conferences -- that this question was discussed. I can not remember. I did not participate in all the sessions.
Q. Do you know Minister Counsellor Dr. Sturm?
A. Counsellor Sturm is not personally know to me.
Q. Do you remember a declaration made at the conference of the 15 and 16 July 1944 by Dr. Sturm?
A. I can not remember any particular statements from Dr. Sturm.
Q. I shall pass to you once more the minutes of that meeting, Number RF 16, Document 806. Will you please look at page 25 of the German text. It is also page 25 of the French version. Do you see it? I read the first line:
"Sturm gave the following report on his territory 'Discipline of Workers'."
I shall pass to the next page, where I read:
"We are working with the Gestapo--"
THE PRESIDENT: Where is this?
M. HERZOG: Document 806
THE PRESIDENT: I know it is 806, but I thought you told us that they followed on.
M. HERZOG: 810, sir. 810.
THE PRESIDENT: I have got that.
M. HERZOG: Page 25.
THE PRESIDENT: yes, go on.
MR. HERZOG: With your permission, I will begin again.
"Sturm gave the following report on his territory concerning the discipline of the workers."
Page 25:
"We are working with the Gestapo and the concentration camps, and we are in that way certain to be going in the right direction." BY M. HERZOG:
Q. Did you make any observations when that declaration was made?
A. I did not hear that statement myself. It is a specialized question, or technical question. I am seeing the record for the first time in my life. There were several parellel meetings, and I did not hear it myself, but it is a matter of course, that some sort of ruling regarding penalties had to be made, in keeping with the worker's law.
Perhaps I may read to you from the same document, the beginning:
"Employment and pay arrangements can only be possible on the strength of a healthy workers' morale. The necessary regulations for securing such morale, based on a disciplinary and penal right, require unified handling, the details of which will be dealt with in a subsequent meeting of the legal experts at Wurzburg," and that, of course, is not one of my departments.
Q. I will ask you what you think of Dr. Sturm's declaration?
A. Subsequently, after Dr. Sturm's declaration -- I come to the end of the first page.
Q. Will you please answer my question first? Please answer my question. What do you think of this declaration?
A. I did not know the statement, but he comes from some authority, and I don't know whether it is the Ministry of Labor or some other authority, but I didn't -
THE PRESIDENT: Watch the light. Don't you see the light in front of you?
Q. Do you not remember that agreement reached between you and the Chief of Police SS to handle through the Gestapo those workers who were guilty of giving up their work?
A. Well, there had to be a department in Germany which dealt with worker who left their place of work without being entitled to, which could get hold of them again, and it couldn't be done by any other department than the police. There wasn't another department for that. more from page 1, where it saws that apart from that, the number of penalties decreed by the authorities against workers, such as reprimands, fines, concentration camps, and legal penalties, were cery, cery small indeed. At least the number of penalties which were pronounced in connection with the prosecution were .01 to.02 in one thousand.
Q. What has that to do with the questions which I asked you and the question of your relations with the Gestapo?
A. But there wasn't any other authority except police in Germany who could carry out arrests, detention. They were entitled to that by law.
Q. You admit, then, that it was on agreement with you that the Gestapo proceeded to the arrest of workmen who absented themselves from what you call their work contact, and they were sent to the concentration camps?
A. Not to concentration camps, no, but into the custody which was prescribed. The penalties were decreed in accordance with certain regulations and I know of nothing else.
M. HERZOG: I submit in evidence Document 2200-PS, which becomes RF-1519. It is a service memorandum of the Cologne Gestapo addressed to the police officials at the Cologne and AAchen district. It refers to the fight against those foreign workers who had absented themselves from their work.
Mr. President, it is the fourth document from the end in my document book. I read from it:
"The number of absentees is considerable, and their presence in the Reich is more disquieting than the fact that they absent themselves from work, for this may conceal an act of sabotage. Henceforth, according to an agreement reached between the head of the SS and Police and the General Plenipotentiary for Manpower, all complaints having relation to absenteeism will be competently dealt with by the Secret Police, Gestapo.
"As soon as the works concerned have advised the police, the police will proceed to the necessary inquiry. The police authorities of the Kreis will be authorized by me to five warning to the absentees and to hold them in custody, by way of warning, up to three days. Directives will be followed, especially as regards the nationality of the delinquents.
"In more serious cases, the papers referring to the case will be sent for a decision to the Gestapo in the Aachen and Cologne district, which, being informed, will order the necessary measures, detention, sending to reeducation camp for workers, or concentration camp." BY MR. HERZOG:
Q. Do you recognize that it was with your agreement that the factory workers were, on the one hand, handed over to the Gestapo, and in the second place, handed over to concentration camps?
A. I did not deny it, but this only happened as stated in the first paragraph. If the population was upset through perpetrations by these workers, in serious cases, or when there were breaches of contract, it was done. There was nobody except the police capable of looking for such people, and I find that the procedure is perfectly correct.
Q. You find that it is a correct manner of procedure to hand over the workers to the Gestapo and concentration camps? I take note of your answer.
A. Only in the case of serious crimes. It says "in serious cases" in the document. It was the demand which they made to me.
Q. At what period did you have knowledge of those atrocities which were committed in concentration camps?
A. I can say to the best of my conscience that the cruelties which have been mentioned here in connection with concentration camps were not known to us.
Q. Do you think that it was the same with all the Hitlerite chiefs?
A. I can't speak for the others. I myself did not know of such measures which I despised to the utmost myself, and which I have heard here.
Q. For instance, do you think that the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler wasaware of the atrocities which were committed in the concentration camps?
A I can't say whether the Reichsfuehrer SS knew of them, whether he caused them. During my life, I have had very little, in fact, next to no talks with the Reichsfuehrer because there were considerable personal tensions between us. underwent yesterday, that you visited the concentration camp of Buchenwald, is that so?
A Yes, I did either in 1937 or 1938. I can't tell you that from memory now. commission, is that so? photographs of the concentration camp in Buchenwald?
A No, I don't know. M. HERZOG: I offer that album in evidence to the Tribunal under No. RF-1520. It bears the number D-565. It is a document of the British Delegation. BY M. HERZOG:
Q Do you recognize yourself in that photograph?
Q With whom are you there?
Q Himmler? for Thuringia, visited this place in the company of the Reichsfuehrer SS and you spoke to the director of the camp without knowing what was happening there?
A I can't tell you when this picture was taken and whether it was taken in the camp itself. I went there once, or rather, I was once outside the camp together with the Reichsfuehrer SS,; there was a large site. But I was never inside the camp together with the Reichsfuehrer SS. I was only there once, as I have already told you, with an Italian commission.
At any rate, this is in no way connected with an inspection. You can see a group, and I can't quite remember the occasion, M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will make up its mind.
I offer in evidence, under No. 1521, the certificate establishing the origin of this album. BY MR. HERZOG: expulsion of Jews from industry. You said this:
"I never had anything to do with it myself. I had nothing to do with the question of the eviction of Jews from industry. I had no influence in this matter. It was a mystery to me."
Can youconfirm this declaration?
A That is perfectly correct. I didn't say it was a secret to me; I said that to the best of my recollection I had nothing to do with it. thought you could contest. One of the points that you raised against this document was that this document dated from 1942 and that it dealt with questions whichdated before the time of your appointment.
Did I understand you correctly? nominated.
Q I offer in evidence Document I-156, which becomes RF-1522. It is a letter written under the authority of Plenipotentiary General of the Four Year Flan, and addressed to you. It is dated the 26th of March 1943. It is addressed to the presidents of the land-labor offices, and it deals with the question of the eviction of Jews. It begins thus:
"In agreement with me and the Reichsminister for Armament and. Munitions, the Reichsufhere SS, for reasons of state security has removed, since the and of February, these Jews who were working as free workers and has transferred them to a place where they are locked up and where they can continue their work In order not to endanger the efficacy of this measure, I have avoided notifying them of this measure beforehand, and I have only notified those labor offices in whose district there is a large number of Jewish manpower.
"So as to have a general view of the effect of those measures upon the commitment of labor, I ask youto let me have, as of the 31st of March, 1943, a return showing how many Jews were removed from their work and a return of their replacement by others which has become necessary.
"From the number of those establishments indicated and of the Jews employed by them, one should take into account the situation which existed before the evacuation". or in the matter of the eviction of Jews and their replacement by foreign workers?
A. Once again I want to state with emphasis in this connection, that this document, this letter, has never been put before me. It appears to have no signature here, and once more it comes from an inferior sub-department in the Reich Ministry of Labor at Sahrland strasse 96. Some official has dealt with it, but I myself can under no circumstances remember that I have ever had knowledge of the letter. I did not write it, it does not come from my office, and it has been written on behalf of someone else, because the signature is not mine.
Q. Will you please look on the left in the corner. It says: "The general delegate to manpower", Are you trying to throw the responsibility on one of your subordinates?
A. No, I do not want to do that. I merely want to say that the letterhead is one of a department, but that the letter has never been known to me. This is the first time in my life I have seen it, and I myself have not had it prepared. I can say that under my oath.
Q. Another question. With this letter is a request concerning the replacement of the expelled Jews. Who else but you could have anything to do with this, you who were the general delegate as to manpower?
A. My department. I told my defense counsel yesterday that it was a matter of course that my department had to furnish replacements if workers were taken away from one firm, be it through calling up or other measures, something which I did not always, of course, hear about in detail.
Q. You are not answering my question.
A. Yes, I have answered your question exactly,
Q. No. The fact that this letter contains a request relating to the replacement of workers, is that not proof that it comes from your department, you being the general plenipotentiary for manpower?
A. Such a request could not come from my department. The evacuation of Jews was entirely the responsibility of the Reichsfuehrer SS. I only had troubles because of such measures as it was very difficult to replace workers, and I was not in any way interested in it.
A. In short, you dispute that you ever proposed a particular plan of work for Jews.
Q. That is just what I am denying. I have nothing to do with it, it was not my task.
Q. Would you please refer once more to document 810, which I offered under 418. Will you look at page 16, under the heading: "Gauleiter Sauckel". I read:
A. I have not got the document available -- yes, I have.
Q. It must have been passed to you about two minutes ago.
A. Will you please give me the number again.
Q. Document 801, but perhaps it is not marked on the photostat. Have you got that document?
A. Yes.
Q. You have it? Under the heading "Gauleiter Sauckel", I read -it is on page 16 of the document:
"As to Sauckel -- that man Sauckel showed himself very annoyed when it was said that the internees in interment camps and the Hungarian Jews constituted the best manpower as regards constructional work. This is positively injust because they furnish an average of 65 to 70 percent of the work of a normal worker, never one hundred percent. Besides, it is unworthy of the German worker and of the moral code of the German workers to put them in the same category as those dregs and traitors of the country. To an internee in a concentration camp and a Jew, work is not a title of nobility. One therefore, cannot permit things to arrive at the point that detainees in concentration camps and Jews will became 'articles' in demand. In workshops and yards internees of concentration camps and Jews must be kept apart from the remainder of the workers and also foreigners, under ail circumstances.