BY M. HERZOG:
Q "In order to make the measures undertaken as effective as possible the armed forces will have to, moreover, be informed of the usefulness of the organizations for the recruiting of labor in order that they should be able to set aside resistance not with both within and without. the Foldkommandaturs and military administration services will have to aid as far as possible the general delegates for labor and avoid all limiting of their activities which are in conformance with the instructions received.
"I therefore ask you to give instructions to this effect." with -
THE PRESIDENT: will you read the next page too, supplementary note, paragraph 1. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Supplementary note: the commander-in-chief of the west then pointed out on the 23 of July as follows:
"Firstly, in spite of anxieties concerning interior security I have authorized the application of the Laval-Sauckel agreement of 12 May, 1944.
"Confidentail instructions for the application of these measures according to the order of the commander-in-chief of the Wehrmacht Q-administration-1 to west number 052-51 secret, of 8744 headquarters document will be given by myself in this combat zone. (Signed). General Field Marshal. Other orders will follow to the commander-in-chief west, chief of headquarters."
I came back to the conference of July 11, 1944. I submit to you number 3819, submitted under GB 306. the Tribunal will find it under 3819 in the first part of my document book. It represents the minutes of the ministers' council whichtook place on July 11, 1944 in Berlin, a gathering of ministers, chiefs of the party and administration.
the list of all the persons who were there. Do you remember who, among the accused, were among those present? Do you recognize the signature of Defendant Funk? That of Defendant Speer?
A I haven't found the place.
Q Have you found them?
A I haven't found Speer's signature as yet.
Q Was Defendant Speer present at this conference?
Q Were you yourself present at this conference? conference, General Warlimont made to you in the name of the General Staff, and do you remember the reply that you made to these proposals? that occasion but I cannot give you it verbatim without having some data at my disposal.
Q Well, I am going to read you the text. It is on page 10.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will find it at the bottom of page 10. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Chief of the OKW, General Warlimont, referred to an order of the Fuehrer which, according to him, was being published, according to which all German military forces would have to be placed at the disposal of the General Delegates for recruiting labor. Wherefore, the Wehrmacht is ordered, if it is not engaged exclusively in tasks of urgent military interest, such as the construction of coastal fortifications, these forces must be placed at the disposal of the General Delegates, lat should not be displaced specially to be put at the disposal of the General Delegates for Labor. General Warlimont made the following proposal: (a) Troops which are in action against partisan will also have to be utilized for the recruiting of labor in the zone held by partisan bands --"
A I am sorry. I can't find the place. Will you give me the page, please?
lation it sounds entirely different from what you are reading.
Q It is on Page 3. Have you found it?
Q Then I can resume the reading of it. "(a) Troops which are in action against partisans will, in addition, have to be used for the recruiting of labor in the zone hold by partisan bands. Every individual who cannot give an unequivocal reason for his staying in that region will be arrested. (b) If large cities are evacuated in full or in part as a result of food difficulties, all the population which is capable of work will have to be, with the aid of the Wehrmacht, recruited for forced labor. (c) The recruiting among refugees which are close to the front will have to be carried out with particular rigor with the aid of the Wehrmacht. Gauleiter Sauckel accepted these proposals with gratitude and expressed the hope that thus some success would be obtained." Do you still continue to contend that the Wehrmacht did not implement the recruiting of labor?
A I did not contradict that. In the combat area and in order to preserve order in these rear areas these measures were proposed, but these measures were not carried through. or four days later than this meeting of ministers. It is a telegram from Defendant Keitel.
M. HERZOG: Document 814, which I submit to the Tribunal under No. 1516 RF. BY M. HERZOG: Commanders. I will point out to you that it bears the stamp of the Labor Section of the Military Government in France. This is of 15 July and here is the text of it -
THE PRESIDENT: M. Herzog, some of these documents are not tabbed and it is impossible to find them unless you tell us where they are.
M. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President. I have tabbed only those documents which I intend to use several times so that the Tribunal will be able to find them easily. Otherwise, the documents must be in the order in which I use them. Document 814 should, therefore, be immediately after 3809, unless I am mistaken.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 3819, isn't it?
M. HERZOG: Actually, it is towards the end and it is after the document marked FR 15: the next document after that is FR 814.
THE PRESIDENT: We have got 815 after that, after FR 15.
M. HERZOG: After 815 we have Document 823, then 834, then 814. BY M. HERZOG: on the subject of this meeting of leaders. I read the second paragraph; "The present situation demands the use of all imaginable means for the finding of supplementary labor since all armament measures profit immediately the fighting forces. Before this fact, all preoccupations must vanish which concern interior difficulties, the development of resistance movements and such matters. We must bring total aid and help to the General Director for Labor. I send my directives for the participation of the Wehrmacht in the requisitioning of laborers in France." Do you continue to contend that the Wehrmacht was not used for the recruiting of labor? fact that these were proposals which had been suggested. I did not dispute that fact and I should like to emphasize that again. But these measures were not carried through and that I would like to emphasize also, and besides that, I did not send this wire. recruiting operations of foreign workers? that I do not know; but some measures were carried through and some of their own accord, that I do know.
Q But isn't it true that you recommended to your officers that they should put theirselves in contact with the chiefs of police of the SD and of the SS?
orderly arrange;ent and where the necessity arose I had to turn to these agencies, when it was necessary. they should get into contact with their chiefs of police of SD and of SS for the accomplishment of their tasks? of the police was necessary: not for the recruiting of workers themselves; only to do away with difficulties or any similar matters. Did you instruct your officers to get into contact with the chiefs of police of SS and of SD?
A I can only answer that question with a limitation to my "yes". On occasions where it was necessary to call in police aid, not in order to carry through the task itself, the mission itself, conferences which you held with the French authorities concerning the recruiting of labor?
present, and this was true, as well, on the French side, where the Minister of the Interior or the Police Chief was present. Howeve, I neither demanded that nor proposed it. present at these discussions. Can you give the name of one of these representatives? Do you know Standartenfuehrer Knorren? present at these conferences. the conferences which the German authorities held concerning labor problems? but that occurred at the suggestion of the military commander-in-chief, under whose direction these meetings and conferences took place. on the 11th of July, 1944, which we mentioned just now in document 3891-PS?
A Do you mean the meeting at Berlin?
A I believe Kaltenbrunner participated in that conference. This meeting had been called by Reichminister Dr. Lammers. the help of the SS in the recruiting of labor? Himmler was present. On this occasion, as far as I recollect, I pointed out that, applicable to the year 1944, the program which had been established by the Fuehrer could not be carried through by me if, in certain areas, the partisans and the dangers connected with that were not stopped, And that, of course could be taken care of only by the authorities who had jurisdiction there. put his police forces at your disposal?
A No, it is not correct to put it that way. I have to contradict you on that. I and my offices could not have police forces put at our disposal, but rather, I asked for help. Were I was supposed to carry through administrative measures, I asked for a regulation of order in these areas. Otherwise, I could not carry through my mission if I did not have order in these areas.
Q I am going to show you document 1292-PS. It has already been submitted to the Tribunal under number USA-225. It is the minutes of a meeting in the presence of the Fuehrer on January 4, 1944. It is in my document book and is marked with a tab.
On page 3 of the French text, page 5 of the German text, you declared:
"Success will depend, firstly on the importance of the German police which are put at the disposal of this task, which cannot be executed without German police forces."
Do you recognize that declaration?
A Will you please indicate the place to me? I haven't found it yet. Which page, please?
A Yes, that is correct. That is a rather abbreviated picture, probably, on the part of Dr. Lammers, but I should like to emphasize specifically that it can be interpreted only in this way, that in those areas - which were very numerous at the time-- I could onll put into effect a labor administration where the executive powers could restore order. This statement is not exactly clear because it is not complete. former worker. Have you ever considered that a worker could be led to his work under threats? time that I allegedly had workers sent to their places of work shackled. I do not remember that. At no time did I ever decree anything like that. In fact, I pursued the exact opposite. Staff on the Use of Labor, which you were setting up in France. I submit to you document 816, which I submitted to the Tribunal this morning, and I ask you to consult it again.
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, I think I have made a mistake. I don't think I submitted that document, and therefore I submit it now, under the number RF-1517.
BY M. HERZOG:
to you? It is at page 38 of the French translation, and page 10 of the photostat. It is the last line on the page:
"The most harsh obligation of Service Police action, the placing on of manacles, must be achieved in the most amiable manner." on the Employment of Labor when they met in Paris.
A Will you please re-read that phrase? I haven't found the place.
Have you found it?
Q And you,defendant Sauckel, considered that the putting on of manacles could be used in the recruiting of labor?
flagrant resistance against the State or the carrying through of a directive, which had taken place. We can see from experience that it could not be any different in the entire world. I said that everything should be done in the best possible manner. I did not use that as a rule to apply for the recruitment of labor, and I do not wish to be misunderstood. Labor in France. resistance against an agency which is carrying through measures, otherwise everything would be impossible. the recruiting of laborers?
A No, I established no special police; I explained that yesterday. That was the suggestion put by the French units themselves for protection. However, it was a special unit, it was not actually police.
Q Have you heard a committee mentioned named "Committee for Social Peace"?
Q Have you heard a committee mentioned which was called "League for Social Order and Justice?"
A. Yes. enforced the institution of these committees?
A It was a proposal, yes, and that was discussed. So far as I remember, that was in the spring of 1944/ any instructions concerning the stting up of these committees? mation of these special police forces? French units.
Q So you did do this?
M. HERZOG: I submit to the Tribunal document 827, under number RF-1518. These are instructions of the defendant Sauckel for the formation of special police forces. The document consists of several sets of instructions . On page 6, for instance, there are instructions of January 25, 1944 from the defendant Sauckel.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is it?
M. HERZOG: On page 6, immediately after document 1292 in the document book. BY M. HERZOG: I read:
"Berlin, January 25, 1944. Secret "Object:
Formation of a protection corps for the implementation of the tasks of the labor service in France and in Belgium during the course of the year 1944.
"To the Military Commander in Paris, France; to the Military Commander for Belgium and the North of France and Brussels.
"A protection corps called 'Committee for Social Peace' will be created in France and in Belgium and will be in charge of guaranteeing the achievement of the future tasks of the labor services for Germany and of enforcing possibilities of implementation in these two countries. This protection corps will be formed by nationals of these two countries around members of the German police and German police guards. This protection corps in France will consist of approximately 5,000 men and that of Belgium approximately 1,000 men.
"I give the following provisional instructions for the formation of this protection corps and the accomplishment of its task:
"1. The selection of its members Will be made in strict coordination with competent police and SD services which will screen the candidates especially from the point of view of their loyalty.
The selection will be made especially amongst the members of political movements favorable to a collaboration with Germany.
"2. ORGANIZATION OF THE PROTECTION CORPS. The central services of direction for the Protection Corps will be created in Paris and Brussels. The directors of these services will be designated by me" -- that is to say, by you, Defendant Sauckel.
"They will depend on my delegates in France for all police questions. The Protection Corps will be directed by the superior commander of the SS and by the police. The regional groups of the Protection Corps will depend on the commanders of German police forces, and the latter will receive their instructions from the Feldkonmandantur and from the recruiting offices for their participation in actions concerning labor.
"The German police and the services of the SD will be concerned with the instruction in police matters and the delegates of the Feldkommandantur; and the recruiting services will be given as much as necessary, in their opinion, of whatever instructions are necessary in the matter of the recruiting of labor.
"The members of the Protection Corps will not wear auniform; however, they will be armed with firearms.
"3. IMPLEMENTATION OF TASK: The members of the Protection Corps delegated to the recruiting offices of the Feldkommandantur will have to be employed in order that the execution of measures ordered will be ensured with a maximum of security. For example, these forces put at the disposal have to be informed immediately if Frenchmen who have been summoned by these various German offices have avoided these summonses. They have to discover the domiciles of these persons and bring them, according to the instructions of the chief of the German police for the collaboration of the French and German police forces.
"They will, moreover, have to track down immediately all those who have refused to appear when summoned, and other persons who have broken their contracts; all this in the interest of an effective executive power. And it would be good if the lists of persons summoned and recruited should be communicated to them in order to enable them to act immediately in cases where German orders have not been executed.
"It is to be presumed that a more effective implementation would be implementation by such immediate measures and by heavy punishment published immediately, than by any of the inquiries which have been followed up till now.
"Likewise, these members of the Protection Corps are expected to indicate isolated persons who are unemployed in order that they may be mobilized, and also denounce all business which have excess personnel, in order that their personnel may be taken away from them."
"Do you, Defendant Sauckel, still deny that you did not form such a league in France and Belgium? organizations, such a protective unit was set up so that on the one hand people who wanted to work could be protected, but on the other hand, the carrying through of administrative measures could be handled, and, in effect,that Frenchmen declare themselves ready and willing for this collaboration. any way, since this was for the alleviation of conditions.
Q I ask you to answer my question yes or no. Do you recognize that you set up this special police service?
set up. But the extent was very slight. those who were refractory to the forced labor services? That is correct for every occupied territory, and that applied to the entire world. The occupying force must keep order. applied against civil servants, for instance, who hindered your action? Laval I suggested the death penalty on an administrative basis in cases of very severe nature. foreseen in the case of civil servants? war industry all the labor force that was required for it? your mission before Minister Speer, Minister of Armaments and Munitions? instructions from the Fuehrer to meet the demands pushed by Minister Speer as far as it was possible for me to d o so. in recruiting foreign labor? at his disposal; but we were not agreed about the carrying out of this directive. For instance, we did not agree about the "blocked" enterprises in France.
Q We will see to that later. I ask you to tell me whether you always manage to satisfy the demands for workers which/were submitted to you by the different sections of the German economy?
A No. It was not my responsibility to do that. defendant Speer have to be satisfied by you with priority over all others?
Q Did not some instances take place in this respect? I mean, for instant did it not happen that some convoys of workers were turned away from their original destination on instructions from Speer? taken to different regions, or different enterprises. But whether that emanated from Mr. Speer or from an armament commission or from another agency, I do not know. It probably varied with various cases. destination of these convoys was sometimes changed in order to satisfy the demands of Speer's offices. Do you confirm this?
A Yes; but I mean something slightly different. It happened I might be informed about this. There were two kinds of changes, or deviation these which I did not know about and these which were agreed upon on request "red ticket"?
A The "red ticket" was applied to the demand for workers, mostly specialized or expert workers, to the demands which it was absolutely necessary to meet first and above all.
Q The system of the "red ticket" was applied to the armament industry was it not?
Speer and yourself? the nature of emergencies that had existed, however, there were changes and deviations such as lists or red tickets. Originally, there were just lists and the red ticket was added and that was decreed. you share with defendant Speer the responsibility of having constrain ed workers to work in German factories for the needs of the war which Germany was fighting against their Fatherland? cedure did not apply especially or generally to foreign workers but especially to German workers and German specialized labor.
Q But it is applied also to foreign workers? clared themselves ready, right to foreign workers as well. blocking of industries (betriebe) mean? duction or if it concerned itself with the production of luxury items These were the enterprises.
Q I don't think you well understood my question. What are "S" industries in France, for instance, the protected factories?
A Sperrbetriebe known as "S" enterprises---is that what you mean. Sperrbeywere enterprises or industries which produced for Speer and which had been agreed upon with the French Minister Echelenne, and they were block as far as labor recruitment was concerned. in order that he should abandon the practice of blocking industries? not make my will felt, that he should dispense with these enterprises.
Q Have you ever brought the debate up to Hitler and in-
sisted with Hitler? Should increase your powers at the expense of those of defendant Speer? but I asked for the reinstatement of the conditions as they appli* briefly and I am asking that I be permitted to explain this. May I please explain this? That the various departments under Speer demanded from me, were skilled laborers and there were many skilled laborers in the enterprises which Speer had earmarked for him as "S" enterprises and in Germany we were hard put; instead of having skilled French laborers, we had to use laborers instead. In each case, I had to produce workers and I considered it more reasonable for the German economy to produce the correct workers and not only workers who were unskilled.
M. HERZOG: I beg the Tribunal to turn back to document 381 the second part of 3819. It consists of two letters addressed, b* of then, to the Fuehrer by defendant Sauckel and by defendant Spe* and both are on this matter of the blocking of industries. I read first to the Tribunal some extracts of Sauckel's letter which happens to be the second.
THE PRESIDENT: Aren't they supposed to have been read alre*
M. HERZOG: I think they have already been read. I cannot affirm it but I believe so. They have already been handed to the Tribunal, document 3819-PS, as GB-310. If the Tribunal wishes, I can limit myself to very limited extracts.
THE PRESIDENT: You need not read them for the purposes of your question to the defendant. BY M. HERZOG:
Q In this letter, on page 27, you asked whether you cou* obtain in a general manner full powers for the national utilization of labor. Do you recognize that you asked for full powers in this manner; did you ask the Fuehrer for it?
A I haven't found the place yet but I could never ask for any blank authority but I asked that I could recruit as in the beginning but, as I stated before, I can't find the place that you are quoting.
A In this German text it says: "In this situation, it is necessary that I again have a free hand" and that means that I have a free hand once more the way I did have before the enterprises were instituted.
Q That is what I asked you to confirm to me. Have you asked the Fuehrer that your powers should be increased at the expense of those of your co-defendant Speer? Will you answer yes or no, please. powers or demanded it? I did demand this, for it was in favor of Speer to have that.
Q Did you ask for it?
Q And don't you remember that on other occasions, defendant Speer likewise asked that his powers should be increased at the expense of yours? relations between Speer and Goebbels after the fall of Stalingrad, made Speer want very much, that he should be beneath his authority. Can you confirm this? labor foresaw the employment of war prisoners? under the care of the Wehrmacht and were to be used for work and could be used. ing, your order No. 10, which foresaw the order of priority of work and gave priority to armament needs; was this order applicable to war prisoners?
applicable only to them and only on the basis of transplanting and as I mentioned yesterday, it was set forth in the order by the Wehrmacht and by me in a catalogue of workers. that it was applicable to war prisoners? was taken for granted. Is it exact that you came to an agreement in September 1943, between Dr. Ley and yourself for setting up a central inspection office f foreign workers? ble for the measures concerning the treatment of foreign workers? they are all available. foreign workers? issued with regard to the feeding of foreign workers. The actual feeding of those people was not the task of the labor authorities That was the responsibility of the enterprises or the camp command ant who had been charged therewith by the enterprises. . This document was submitted to the Tribunal under No. "USA 698. had it already yesterday in your hands. It consists of the minute of a meeting in the office of the General Director for the Utilizi tion of Labor; that is to say, yourself, on September 3, 1942. document is dated September 4.
M. HERZOG: This document, Mr. President, is at the end of document book, after document 827, towards the end of the book.
the last page of the French translation, I read:
THE PRESIDENT: The last page is 857, isn't it, the document called 857, the last page I have Got. It is just in front of 200-PS. Did you come across that? It is just after 1913-PS.
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, after 1915-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
M. HERZOG: I read: "The Fuehrer cannot understand that in the course of the combat for the future of Europe, it should exactly be the country which has to bear the principal weight of this fight which suffers the most from hunger--whereas, in France...."
THE PRESIDENT: It is on page one of it --- page four?
M. HERZOG: No, Mr. President, on page four of the French text; that is to say, on the last page. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "The Fuehrer cannot understand that in the course of the fight for the future of Europe, it should exactly be the country which has to bear the principal weight of this fight which suffers the most from hunger; whereas, in France, in Holland, in Hungary, in the Ukraine or anywhere else, one has not yet been able to speak of hunger. He desires that it should be the country in the future -- as for foreign workers living in the Reich, with the exclusion of workers from the East, one must little by little institute for them a system of rationing which corresponds to their output. It is not admissible that Dutchmen or lazy Italians should receive better rationing than an active worker from the East. The principle of output must apply equally to feeding." I ask you what you meant when you stated that the principle of output must apply equally to their feeding? to performances in the industries, there was an additional ration and I fought for the principle that these additional rations which had been assured to workers from the West, that the same extra rations would be assured to the workers from the East as well and that there were Western workers; that is, Dutch and Belgian workers should be cut down as the case demanded but not the normal ration and the normal ration which applied to the German people.
