Do you not call this a veritable ultimatum? and nothing else. Any pressure,or any threats against Laval, could not be used by me.
Q What did you mean when you said, "I beg you, therefore, instantly, to obtain -- by tomorrow morning, 10 a.m. -- the signature of the President of the French Council of Ministers on the decree for the mobilization of the class of 1944, or else to inform me directly in the event that Laval should answer with a categorical 'no'. I would not accept, under any form, dilatory excuses."
Is that not an ultimatum? I had to leave, because I had orders to leave. an ultimatum, defendant Sauckel? Prime Minister would sign it or not.
Q Thank you. The Tribunal will appreciate that. of your various actions?
A So far as I can remember -- and I can't be exact offhand -- there were seven to eight hundred thousand French workers used in Germany. However I can't tell you exactly. of workers for forced labor was regulated by the legislation of the occupation army?
A I don't know about the legislation of the occupation army; the Administration of Labor did that. forced labor in Belgium and in the North of France?
A We called it military duty in accordance with German law. That is correct.
in Belgium and in the North of France, signed the order of October 6, 1942, and did it under pressure from you?
A No, he didn't sign it under pressure from me, because I talked to him about it and there wasn't any argument. This happened at the request of the Reich Government and the Fuehrer, everyone. testified before a French Magistrate on November 27, 1945. I submitted this interrogatory under No. RF-15 in the course of my exposition in January of this year. I read from page 1. I take up question 3:
" Question: Will you swear that you will give the truth, nothing but the truth, the whole truth?
" Answer: I swear.
"Question: October 6, 1942, there appeared an order which instituted forced labor in Belgium and in the departments of the North of France "-
"Answer: For the north of France and of Belgium, yes.
"Question: Does the witness remember having promulgated this order?
"Answer: I do not remember exactly the text of this order, because it was done as the result of a long argument, a long fight -with Sauckel.
"Question: Did you have any difficulties with Sauckel?
"Answer: I was fundamentally opposed to the institution of forced labor and it was only after having received orders that I consented to edict the order." under pressure from you?
Q You dispute the testimony of General von Falkenhausen? testimony today. The Tribunal will appreciate it.
this version is not completely correct. Legislation regarding labor in occupied territories wasn't carried out on my order but upon order of the Fuehrer, and I have not had any discussions about that with General von Falkenhausen. We had a very agreeable chat and he introduced the law. I do not remember that I had had any difficulties in that connection. that time he gave all his instructions on Hitler's orders at the time. I myself had neither arguments nor difficulties with him. forced labor was regulated by the Reichs Kommissariat for Labor?
A Please, will you hear the Defendant Seyss-Inquart about that? The expression is entirely new to me. In France, Belgium and Holland this matter was dealt with only through the administration of the labor departments, that is to say -
Q Who signed the orders concerning forced labor in Holland?
A I assume that Mr. Seyss-Inquart did. constituted a local application of the general program which you were charged with achieving? Holland the Defendant Seyss-Inquart was only implementing your program of forced labor?
A It was a realization of the Fuehrer's labor program as he, the Fuehrer, had ordered it. the implementation of the laws on forced labor?
A Not to investigate. I was only in Belgium and Holland for a very short time. I had conferences there with the department heads and according to my recollection I visited labor departments there and inspected them. measures for the implementation of the labor program, isn't that true?
A I didn't work it out during the journey; I talked about it -but of course I used the travel time to work.
Q I submit to you Document PS-556, RF 67. It is a letter which you wrote to the Fuehrer on August 13, 1943. In this you declare, paragraph 1 of the letter:
"My Fuehrer, I take the liberty of informing you of my return from France, Belgium and Holland, where I went on official business. In the course of difficult and long negotiations I imposed upon the occupied territories of the West for the five last months of the year 1943 the program which is indicated here below, and I also prepared detailed measures for its implementation in France with the military commander, the German Embassy, the French Government; in Belgium with the military commanders and in Holland with the officers of the Reich Kommissariat". in order to prepare detailed measures?
A. I have never denied that, and I want to say that I resent that expression. It was only the tendency as you represented it, that was wrong. It says quite clearly that I discussed, not prepared.
Q. One last question on this set of problems: hat is your estimate of the number of Dutch laborers who were deported into Germany?
A. I can't tell you exactly from memory how many Dutch workers were employed on the basis of contracts end on the basis of these laws. May be there were two to three hundred thousand, but maybe more. I can't tell you offhand what these Dutch figures were.
Q Thank you. Is it correct that the forced recruitment of foreign workers was implemented with great brutality?
A. Regarding the instructions which I published, there was talk about that sufficiently in detail yesterday. My instructions are available practically without a gap, as to brutality measures -
Q Defendant, you weren't asked about your instructions, but whether brutailty was shown. If you know, you can answer.
A. I cannot know. From time to time I heard about infringements and I stopped them at once. I protested against them at once, if I did hear of them.
BY M. HERZOG: the recruiting of workers was implemented in the occupied territories?
A. I received protests, to the extent that they were discussed yesterday with my Defense Counsel.
Q. And when you received those protests, what did you do?
A. I had those cases investigated and furthermore, measures were left to the authorities concerned. I did everything at my end and that is something that will be testified to here, that such events were in future to be prevented and stopped.
Q. Is it correct that you appealed for the help of the Armed Forces to insure the recruiting of foreign workers in those areas where the Army was exercising jurisdiction and through the Quartermaster General of the Army.
A. I approached the supreme military commanders and passed orders on to them.
Q. Is it correct that you asked the military authorities that commanders of troops should be put at the disposal of your offices and services?
a. I do not remember such commanders. There was the labor attachment there. What is correct is that in areas whore there were uprisings or partisan battles, I asked that those areas should be pacified, so that administration could once more be possible there, administration which had been disturbed or interrupted.
Q. You therefore asked that the commanders of troops should be put at your disposal?
A. Not at my disposal. It wasn't my task to pacify those areas. It was ones of the prerequisites of the fulfillment of my own tasks that I could only carry them out if the pacification would once more allow proper administration -- but not recruitment of labor.
Q. Did you not ask that these troop commanders should participate in the tasks assigned to the service for procurement of labor? I submit to you Document 815, which I submit to the Tribunal under the number RF-1514. It is a letter of April 18 1944, from General Field Marshal von Runstedt and which is addressed to you. I read the first paragraph of it:
"The General Delegate for the recruiting and utilization of labor" -that is you, isn't it -- "has addressed" -
A. That's me, and there was a department in France, too -
(Continuing) -- "Was addressed a request for the intervention, that is to say, to the Commander-in-Chief of the West, in order that in sectors stationed, the Commanders of these units should receive the order to where there were units belonging to the Commander-in-Chief of the West facilitate the execution of the tasks assigned to the service of procurement of labor by putting commanders of troops at his disposal". should be put at your disposal?
A. I personally didn't ask for them. This appears to be the office -
Q. Are you not the General Delegate for the Recruiting and Utilization of Labor?
A. Yes, but this order isn't known to me personally.
Q. This request, do you know whether it was seconded by the Defendant Speer?
A. I can't tell you.
Q. I submit to you Document 824-PS -
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps you better put that over until after the adjournment.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours).
(Hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, May 30, 1946)
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, I believe that Mr. Dodd has a statement to make to the Tribunal.
THE MARSHAL: May It please the Tribunal, the report is made that the defendant Jodl is absent.
MR. DODD: Document number 3057-PS, concerning which Mr. Herzog questioned the defendant this morning, was in the document book offered by the United States with reference to the slave labor program but it was not offered in evidence and I found the reference in the record at page 1397 of the transcript for the 13th day of December, 1945, and the President of the Tribunal particularly asked why we had not read document 3057*PS and I answered that we had intended to offer it but that counsel for Sauckel told me that his client maintained that he had been coerced into the making of the statement and for that reason we preferred not to offerit and were not offering it.
THE PRESIDENT: I want to announce that the Tribunal will rise this afternoon at half past four to sit in closed session.
THE WITNESS: May I be permitted to give my explanation to that document?
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY M. HERZOG:
Q What document are you speaking of? von Rundstedt. In this document we are concerned with a letter, which, of course, is addressed to me.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not hear you ask any question. Did you ask your question?
M. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President. It is the document which I presented before the session was ended and the document states that the general delegate for the recruiting and using of labor asked that commandos of troops should be put at his disposal.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean 815 -- yes, very well.
MR. HERZOG: That is exactly right, Mr. President.
BY M. HERZOG: fact that you requested troop commandos? for I personally did not receive this letter. Instead it was sent to Paris to the office which applied. This letter is not initialed by me. But in order to clarify my position I should like to emphasize specifically that I did not demand troops in order to recruit workers. I asked for troops when in areas the administrative procedure could not be carried through because of resistance activities by the resistance movement. In that connection there is an errorin this letter. I did not received this letter myself. It is initialed by the office in Paris. Tribunal under number 1515 RF. This document 824, is a letter from the commander-in-chief of the west, from his headquarters, dated July 24, 1944. I read it:
"One can conclude from all this that on the order of the Fuehrer and after the abrogation of all dispositions, which are contrary to the desires of the general delegate for labor --".
This general delegate for labor is yourself, is not that true?
"--and of Reich Minister Speer must in principle be established. Following my telegram and following letters, the conference of ministers of the 11th of July in the Reich Chancellory and concerning which the commander-in-chief of the west has been informed by him, the other existing disposition is to remain in full force and effect without taking into account hesitations which night concern security and order within the country. Recruiting will have to start everywhere where the matters referred to in his telegram are applicable. The Fuehrer has therefore decided that in the sector of the army no methods of coercion will be used against the population as long as the latter will be helpful to the Wehrmacht. However, the recruiting of volunteers must be handled energetically amongst refugees from the combat zones. Moreover, all means will be considered good in order to recruit as much labor as possible from elsewhere by the means of which the Wehrmacht disposes." Speer troop commandos went about the recruiting of labor? this in the way pictured. At that time the commander-in-chief under the stre* of combat conditions was in a very serious position. But I can testify that after the date of the 25 of July, 1945, these things did not apply and were not effective for the withdrawal of German troops had gone on much too fast so that this decree, which had been given out by the Fuehrer, was in no way effective any longer.
Q Do you remember the conference, the ministers' conference of the 11th of July, 1944, to which the document which I have just read refers?
Q Do you remember the persons who were present at this meeting?
Q I submit to you the minutes of this meeting. It is document 3819-PS, which has been handed to the Tribunal under number -
THE PRESIDENT: the Tribunal would like you to read the last page of document 824, that is not the last, but the last on that page beginning with "Enfin --". It is on page 346 of the French translation.
BY M. HERZOG:
Q "In order to make the measures undertaken as effective as possible the armed forces will have to, moreover, be informed of the usefulness of the organizations for the recruiting of labor in order that they should be able to set aside resistance not with both within and without. the Foldkommandaturs and military administration services will have to aid as far as possible the general delegates for labor and avoid all limiting of their activities which are in conformance with the instructions received.
"I therefore ask you to give instructions to this effect." with -
THE PRESIDENT: will you read the next page too, supplementary note, paragraph 1. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Supplementary note: the commander-in-chief of the west then pointed out on the 23 of July as follows:
"Firstly, in spite of anxieties concerning interior security I have authorized the application of the Laval-Sauckel agreement of 12 May, 1944.
"Confidentail instructions for the application of these measures according to the order of the commander-in-chief of the Wehrmacht Q-administration-1 to west number 052-51 secret, of 8744 headquarters document will be given by myself in this combat zone. (Signed). General Field Marshal. Other orders will follow to the commander-in-chief west, chief of headquarters."
I came back to the conference of July 11, 1944. I submit to you number 3819, submitted under GB 306. the Tribunal will find it under 3819 in the first part of my document book. It represents the minutes of the ministers' council whichtook place on July 11, 1944 in Berlin, a gathering of ministers, chiefs of the party and administration.
the list of all the persons who were there. Do you remember who, among the accused, were among those present? Do you recognize the signature of Defendant Funk? That of Defendant Speer?
A I haven't found the place.
Q Have you found them?
A I haven't found Speer's signature as yet.
Q Was Defendant Speer present at this conference?
Q Were you yourself present at this conference? conference, General Warlimont made to you in the name of the General Staff, and do you remember the reply that you made to these proposals? that occasion but I cannot give you it verbatim without having some data at my disposal.
Q Well, I am going to read you the text. It is on page 10.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will find it at the bottom of page 10. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Chief of the OKW, General Warlimont, referred to an order of the Fuehrer which, according to him, was being published, according to which all German military forces would have to be placed at the disposal of the General Delegates for recruiting labor. Wherefore, the Wehrmacht is ordered, if it is not engaged exclusively in tasks of urgent military interest, such as the construction of coastal fortifications, these forces must be placed at the disposal of the General Delegates, lat should not be displaced specially to be put at the disposal of the General Delegates for Labor. General Warlimont made the following proposal: (a) Troops which are in action against partisan will also have to be utilized for the recruiting of labor in the zone held by partisan bands --"
A I am sorry. I can't find the place. Will you give me the page, please?
lation it sounds entirely different from what you are reading.
Q It is on Page 3. Have you found it?
Q Then I can resume the reading of it. "(a) Troops which are in action against partisans will, in addition, have to be used for the recruiting of labor in the zone hold by partisan bands. Every individual who cannot give an unequivocal reason for his staying in that region will be arrested. (b) If large cities are evacuated in full or in part as a result of food difficulties, all the population which is capable of work will have to be, with the aid of the Wehrmacht, recruited for forced labor. (c) The recruiting among refugees which are close to the front will have to be carried out with particular rigor with the aid of the Wehrmacht. Gauleiter Sauckel accepted these proposals with gratitude and expressed the hope that thus some success would be obtained." Do you still continue to contend that the Wehrmacht did not implement the recruiting of labor?
A I did not contradict that. In the combat area and in order to preserve order in these rear areas these measures were proposed, but these measures were not carried through. or four days later than this meeting of ministers. It is a telegram from Defendant Keitel.
M. HERZOG: Document 814, which I submit to the Tribunal under No. 1516 RF. BY M. HERZOG: Commanders. I will point out to you that it bears the stamp of the Labor Section of the Military Government in France. This is of 15 July and here is the text of it -
THE PRESIDENT: M. Herzog, some of these documents are not tabbed and it is impossible to find them unless you tell us where they are.
M. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President. I have tabbed only those documents which I intend to use several times so that the Tribunal will be able to find them easily. Otherwise, the documents must be in the order in which I use them. Document 814 should, therefore, be immediately after 3809, unless I am mistaken.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 3819, isn't it?
M. HERZOG: Actually, it is towards the end and it is after the document marked FR 15: the next document after that is FR 814.
THE PRESIDENT: We have got 815 after that, after FR 15.
M. HERZOG: After 815 we have Document 823, then 834, then 814. BY M. HERZOG: on the subject of this meeting of leaders. I read the second paragraph; "The present situation demands the use of all imaginable means for the finding of supplementary labor since all armament measures profit immediately the fighting forces. Before this fact, all preoccupations must vanish which concern interior difficulties, the development of resistance movements and such matters. We must bring total aid and help to the General Director for Labor. I send my directives for the participation of the Wehrmacht in the requisitioning of laborers in France." Do you continue to contend that the Wehrmacht was not used for the recruiting of labor? fact that these were proposals which had been suggested. I did not dispute that fact and I should like to emphasize that again. But these measures were not carried through and that I would like to emphasize also, and besides that, I did not send this wire. recruiting operations of foreign workers? that I do not know; but some measures were carried through and some of their own accord, that I do know.
Q But isn't it true that you recommended to your officers that they should put theirselves in contact with the chiefs of police of the SD and of the SS?
orderly arrange;ent and where the necessity arose I had to turn to these agencies, when it was necessary. they should get into contact with their chiefs of police of SD and of SS for the accomplishment of their tasks? of the police was necessary: not for the recruiting of workers themselves; only to do away with difficulties or any similar matters. Did you instruct your officers to get into contact with the chiefs of police of SS and of SD?
A I can only answer that question with a limitation to my "yes". On occasions where it was necessary to call in police aid, not in order to carry through the task itself, the mission itself, conferences which you held with the French authorities concerning the recruiting of labor?
present, and this was true, as well, on the French side, where the Minister of the Interior or the Police Chief was present. Howeve, I neither demanded that nor proposed it. present at these discussions. Can you give the name of one of these representatives? Do you know Standartenfuehrer Knorren? present at these conferences. the conferences which the German authorities held concerning labor problems? but that occurred at the suggestion of the military commander-in-chief, under whose direction these meetings and conferences took place. on the 11th of July, 1944, which we mentioned just now in document 3891-PS?
A Do you mean the meeting at Berlin?
A I believe Kaltenbrunner participated in that conference. This meeting had been called by Reichminister Dr. Lammers. the help of the SS in the recruiting of labor? Himmler was present. On this occasion, as far as I recollect, I pointed out that, applicable to the year 1944, the program which had been established by the Fuehrer could not be carried through by me if, in certain areas, the partisans and the dangers connected with that were not stopped, And that, of course could be taken care of only by the authorities who had jurisdiction there. put his police forces at your disposal?
A No, it is not correct to put it that way. I have to contradict you on that. I and my offices could not have police forces put at our disposal, but rather, I asked for help. Were I was supposed to carry through administrative measures, I asked for a regulation of order in these areas. Otherwise, I could not carry through my mission if I did not have order in these areas.
Q I am going to show you document 1292-PS. It has already been submitted to the Tribunal under number USA-225. It is the minutes of a meeting in the presence of the Fuehrer on January 4, 1944. It is in my document book and is marked with a tab.
On page 3 of the French text, page 5 of the German text, you declared:
"Success will depend, firstly on the importance of the German police which are put at the disposal of this task, which cannot be executed without German police forces."
Do you recognize that declaration?
A Will you please indicate the place to me? I haven't found it yet. Which page, please?
A Yes, that is correct. That is a rather abbreviated picture, probably, on the part of Dr. Lammers, but I should like to emphasize specifically that it can be interpreted only in this way, that in those areas - which were very numerous at the time-- I could onll put into effect a labor administration where the executive powers could restore order. This statement is not exactly clear because it is not complete. former worker. Have you ever considered that a worker could be led to his work under threats? time that I allegedly had workers sent to their places of work shackled. I do not remember that. At no time did I ever decree anything like that. In fact, I pursued the exact opposite. Staff on the Use of Labor, which you were setting up in France. I submit to you document 816, which I submitted to the Tribunal this morning, and I ask you to consult it again.
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, I think I have made a mistake. I don't think I submitted that document, and therefore I submit it now, under the number RF-1517.
BY M. HERZOG:
to you? It is at page 38 of the French translation, and page 10 of the photostat. It is the last line on the page:
"The most harsh obligation of Service Police action, the placing on of manacles, must be achieved in the most amiable manner." on the Employment of Labor when they met in Paris.
A Will you please re-read that phrase? I haven't found the place.
Have you found it?
Q And you,defendant Sauckel, considered that the putting on of manacles could be used in the recruiting of labor?
flagrant resistance against the State or the carrying through of a directive, which had taken place. We can see from experience that it could not be any different in the entire world. I said that everything should be done in the best possible manner. I did not use that as a rule to apply for the recruitment of labor, and I do not wish to be misunderstood. Labor in France. resistance against an agency which is carrying through measures, otherwise everything would be impossible. the recruiting of laborers?
A No, I established no special police; I explained that yesterday. That was the suggestion put by the French units themselves for protection. However, it was a special unit, it was not actually police.
Q Have you heard a committee mentioned named "Committee for Social Peace"?
Q Have you heard a committee mentioned which was called "League for Social Order and Justice?"
A. Yes. enforced the institution of these committees?
A It was a proposal, yes, and that was discussed. So far as I remember, that was in the spring of 1944/ any instructions concerning the stting up of these committees? mation of these special police forces? French units.
Q So you did do this?
M. HERZOG: I submit to the Tribunal document 827, under number RF-1518. These are instructions of the defendant Sauckel for the formation of special police forces. The document consists of several sets of instructions . On page 6, for instance, there are instructions of January 25, 1944 from the defendant Sauckel.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is it?
M. HERZOG: On page 6, immediately after document 1292 in the document book. BY M. HERZOG: I read:
"Berlin, January 25, 1944. Secret "Object:
Formation of a protection corps for the implementation of the tasks of the labor service in France and in Belgium during the course of the year 1944.
"To the Military Commander in Paris, France; to the Military Commander for Belgium and the North of France and Brussels.
"A protection corps called 'Committee for Social Peace' will be created in France and in Belgium and will be in charge of guaranteeing the achievement of the future tasks of the labor services for Germany and of enforcing possibilities of implementation in these two countries. This protection corps will be formed by nationals of these two countries around members of the German police and German police guards. This protection corps in France will consist of approximately 5,000 men and that of Belgium approximately 1,000 men.
"I give the following provisional instructions for the formation of this protection corps and the accomplishment of its task: