"Gauleiter Sauckel also pointed out finally that as a matter of fact he did not object to the employment of Jews and of detainees, but only against their exaggerations, as outlined above". your own life as a workman, what you thou ht of what you said, namely as to work not being a title of nobility. paragraph is a very brief and free representation of the fact. It is a shorthand note. I opposed this because I assumed inmates of concentration camps would be traitors. I could not have assumed anything else, that is, except that people who went there should not be taken to the same places of work with others, that is, including Jews. But it was not I who acted in connection with this employment. There were workers of the Reichsfuehrer SS, and on the occasion of the Fuehrer conference, the conference of leaders, I spoke in the interests of ordinary workers and unpunished foreign workers. I fought against their joint employment in that connection and that was all.
Q. I ask you this question again. What did you mean when you said that to the detainee in a concentration camp and a Jew, work is not a title of nobility? blemished people should not be compared with the work of blemished workers. There is a difference whether I would employ prisoners or whether I would employ free workers, and I wanted to see that observed.
Q. So in that way Jews were internees, were they not?
A. In this case, the Jews were detainees of the Reichsfuehrer SS. Actually, I regret the expression.
Q. You dispute, therefore, that this phrase is an expression of your hostility which you manifested against Jews, for instance?
A. At that time I was, of course, against the Jews, but I was not concerned with that employment. I was against that, that this employment, these employees of the Reichsfuehrer SS should not be mixed up as in this case.
Q. Did you ever conduct any propaganda against the Jews?
A. I did conduct propaganda against Jews as far as they had positions in the Reich, which I was convinced should have been occupied by Germans.
Q. I will submit to you an article which you wrote in the month of June 1945, at a period when I think in your Germany there were not so very many Jews still occupying important posts. This article appeared in a newspaper which you published in the Gau of Thuringia, PS 857, which I offer to the Tribunal as 1523. I shall read extracts from this article.
(Witness handed document).
First extract from page one, column one, last paragraph but one:
"Now the holders of the best virtues, the sailors, the aviators and soldiers of Great Britain can not stop the Jewish plague which is making such rapid ravages on the body of their country".
Then, on page two, column two, last paragraph but one:
"There exists no example in the history of the world showing that anything of importance may have been created in the course of centuries by Jews and those who were corrupted by their manners and their habits". plague?
Q I ask you again my question. What do you understand by the "Jewish plague" to the nation. That was my view.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will draw its own conclusions, Mr. President, I have no further questions. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: of General Plenipotentiary for the utilization of manpower. Tell me how many foreign workers were employed in German economy and industry at the end of the war? there were about five million foreign workers in Germany. defense. I believe that number applies not to the moment of the capitulation of Germany but to the date of 24 July, 1942. I will quote somewhat different data on that subject and will use your own documents. You were nominated General Plenipotentiary on 21 March, 1942. On 27 July, 1942, -- that is to say three months later -- you submitted to Hitler and Goering your first report. In this report you stated that from the first of April to the 24th of July, 1942, the mobilization quota of 1,600,000 persons was surpassed by you. Do you confirm this number?
A I quoted that figure and as far as I can remember that wasn't only including foreigners but also German workers. population of the occupied territories evacuated to Germany up to the 24th of July, 1942, numbered 5,124,000 persons. Is that number exact? Do you confirm it? the case of all neutral and western and other allied nations there was a continuous exchange, because these workers worked either six months, nine months, or one year, during which time they remained in Germany and at the end of which contract that had been agreed on they returned to their countries. That is why these figures of that time may be correct; but they could have increased con siderably because there was this continuous exchange which you have to take into consideration.
ted to Germany numbered 5,124,000 persons to the date of the 24th July, 1942, is that so?
A If it says so in the document, then it may be true. It is possible; but it probable that this takes into account the deployed prisoners of war. I can't say without facts, figures.
Q I will show you this and other documents referring to this matter later. On the 1st of December, 1942, you compiled a summary report on the utilization of manpower by December, 1942. In this summary you quote a figure referring to the number of workers assingned to German war industries from the 1st of April to the 30th of Nove mber, 1942, and these workers number 2,640,000. On page 8 of your report you come to the conclusion that by the 30th of November, 1942, in the territory of the Reich, 7,000,000 persons were employed. Do you confirm these figures?
I can't confirm the figure without documents and evidence. Again, I assume that French and other prisoners of war were once more included. employed, even if you include the prisoners of war, is that figure exact? Will you now say how many workers were brought to Germany from occupied territories during the year 1943? Tell me that number. amounted to one and a half to two millions. Various programs had been compiled in that connection which were continuously being rectified. 1943, approximately, You needn't give an exact figure. Approximately.
A I have already said one and a half to two millions. I can't be more exact.
Q I understand. Do you remember what task was assigned to you for the year 19 Germans; but of those 4,000,000 only 3,000,000 were supplied, and of those 2,100, 000 were Germans and 900,000 foreigners.
Q Now can you give us a general summary of your activities? How many persons were brought to Germany from the occupied territories during the war and how many were employed in economy and industry at the end of the war?
5,000,000 foreign workers in Germany at the end of the war. Several million workers were returned to neutral and Allied and Western countries during the war and they had to be replenished again and again, which was the cause for those now programs that were made. That is the explanation, that those workers who were already there before my time and those who were brought in did reach the figure of 7,000,000, but during the war there were once more several millions who flowed back to their home countries.
Q And also, a large number perished as a result of slave labor. I do not doubt that for a moment. In your documents you probably meant real manpower and not those who perished or these who were absent. Could you tell us how many were brought to Germany from occupied territories during the war? What numbers were brought there, actually?
Q Five million?
Q You continue to assert that that is so? by my statistical department and as far as I can remember, there were five million workers in Germany, because workers continuously returned, The experts of the department can give you a better answer than L. The contracts were either six or nine months, you see.
THE PRESIDENT: How many were brought into Germany, how many foreign workers, during the whole of the war? Is that the question you are asking?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Yes, it is.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your answer to that?
THE WITNESS: I have already stated that, including the workers who were there before my time, before I came into office, and including those who were there at the end, there may have been about five millions. In accordance with my material, there were five millions in the end, because the others had gone back.
THE PRESIDENT: yes, but that is not what you are being asked. You are being asked:
How many persons were brought to Germany from foreign countries during the whole of the war? You say there were five million at the end of the war, and there were constant changes in the preceding years. It follows that there must have been more than five million people brought to Germany in the course of a year.
THE WITNESS: Including the changes, I would estimate seven million, but I can't give you the exact figure because the figure which existed before my time is something I don't know reliably. At any rate, there must have been millions who returned home. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. In November of 1942 you quoted a figure of seven million of imported labor.
A. Workers employed, and that includes prisoners of war, in 1942
Q. Yes, including prisoners of war, I understand. Is that right, seven million by the 30th of November?
A. I can't tell you for certain. It may be correct, but I can't tell you without evidence.
Q. I will show you the document tomorrow. Today, in answering my question, you said that during 1943, two million further workers were imported.
A. In 1943?
Q. Yes, in 1943.
A. Yes, one and a half to two million, I said.
Q. That is to say, seven plus two makes nine in all. Is that correct.
A. No. I said expressly that some went back all the time, and in the new forces I didn't even count the prisoners of war.
A. You don't seem to understand me. I am speaking of those who were brought to Germany from the occupied territories, who passed through your hands. It is of absolutely no importance how many of them perished in Germany or how many left. That does not change the total number of workers brought to German territory from abroad.
If, therfore, by the 30th of November 1942, there were seven million persons in Germany, and, according to you, in 1943 two further million were brought in, and in 1944, as you just said, nine hundred thousand were again brought in, then, according to you, the total number of workers imported to Germany during the war must have amounted to ten million.
Is that right?
A. I can say only that with the reservation that I don't know how many were actually therebefore my time. That may be correct as a guess, and it may include all prisoners of war who were employed, or who were working. However, you have to deduct the prisoners of war from the civilian workers who were introduced into the country.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjoutned until 31 May 1946, at 100 hours).
BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. Defendant Sauckel, yesterday I did not get a satisfactory answer to my question as to how many foreign workers were imported to Germany from occupied territories.
Now you will see the document No. 1296-PS, which is your report dated 27th of July 1942. Besides, Document No. 1739-PS will also be handed to you. It is a summary of your activities until the 30th of November 1942. number of foreign workers imported to Germany, including prisoners of war. The loss of manpower has no importance in this case, as this will not modify the numbers of people brought to Germany. They were brought to Germany, but later either perished as a result of unbearable slave labor, or else were returned as incapable of work. Did you see those documents? Have you got those document?
A. Yes, but please may I have permission to look at them and look at the figures?
Q. Please do so.
A. I haven't finished. There is much in this document.
Q. But it is not necessary to weight yourself with the contents of all the documents. In Document No. 1296-PS, on the last page of the report, at the end of the page, you will find Count 5, which is entitled "General Summary". Have you found that part?
A. No, I haven't quite. Which document are you referring to?
Q. Have you found it?
A. I have found that passage, yes.
Q. These are summary figures, 12,000,094 people.
THE PRESIDENT: Twelve million, did you say?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: No. 5,124,000 persons.
THE PRESIDENT: It must have been an error in translation.
A. I must state with emphasis, in connecting with this document, that the figure here, 5,124,000 is contained on it, and it is true it is 1,576,000 prisoners of war, but they cannot be counted amongst civilian workers. As far as their administration and their accomodations were concerned, they were commanded by the army and were taken care of by the general system for prisoners of war in the various districts.
Q. They were utilized by German industry. Please read after me Count 5, "General Summary of Mobilized Workers in Germany for Manpower".
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Now, take a look at -
A. Please will you let me explain that those prisoners of war were not looked after or accomodated by the firms in question or the German Workers Front, but that they were accomodated in the camps which were under the jurisdiction of the general system for prisoners of war in the district in question. For that reason, they are not included in any statistics as civilian workers.
Q. As far as prisoners of war working in the organization, I will speak of that later. Actually, I am interested in knowing how many civilian workers and prisoners of war were working in German industry. Do you confirm this figure of 5,124,000. Is this figure an exact figure or not?
A. For that purpose it is a correct figure, but so that the Tribunal can get the exact picture of the procedure, I should like to have permission to refer to a very exact document. That is Document 1746-PS. That is an exact statement of the civilian workers from various countries and prisoners of war. The document deals with a time about six months later than this one, and the highest authorities in the Reich confirmed it.
It had been presented to the Fuehrer, too.
Will you please allow me to complete my statement. I am very politely asking you to. I must verify these matters completely. My conscientiousness demands that before the world. in page 7 of Document 1746 an exact statement of figures, and that shows 4,012,000 civilian workers, and 1,648,000 prisoners of war.
The total of that figure is most exact, 5,672,000. In spite of the fact that further foreign civilian workers came in this figure, did not increase considerably and that is proved by the fact that, as I said yesterday, civilian workers who came from western, southern and south-easterly territories mostly had contracts to work for six months and whenever possible and under my care, these contracts were obse rved, because if I had not insisted that they be adhered to, I could not have had any now workers coming in.
If, during six months I occupied several hundred thousand and then returned then, that figure would shift again and again as they went home. reported as a total figure as a certain date and the returning men must be deducted.
There is a French document, which is a report from Paris. My counsel will be good enough later on to the PS number. That document shows that French workers were shown in total, not in accordance with my office, but in accordance with a statement of the French Embassy, and that eight hundred thousand workers from France were taken to Germany, but that in 1944 there were only four hundred thousand in Germany on the strength of these work contracts, because as such contracts would expire daily, thousands of them would travel back. You could say that roughly fifty percent of the contracts were expiring and fifty percent were working and that is an exact statement, made to the best of my conscience.
Q. As to what these work contracts actually were, I will speak about later. what criminal methods were used to mobilize workers; as to how this was done in the east I will speak to you about later.
I would like you to confirm the figures of your report, 5,124,000. Is this an exact figure or is it not an exact figure? I am waiting for your answer. I do not ask for an explanation, I want you to say whether this figure is exact or not.
A. It is correct for the purpose of this document, but it was constantly changed for the reason I have mentioned.
Q. This figure refers to 24 July 1942, it is quite clear to every-
body. Now, take up the second document, 1734-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: 1739? BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. 1739-PS, last page. I read the following sentence:
"Only then can we be sure that a vast number of foreign workers and women workers in the territory of the Reich, which reached seven million, including all working prisoners of war, will furnish the greatest aid to German war industry."
Does this sentence mention seven million?
A. The figure of seven million quoted included all prisoners of war used for work at that particular moment.
Q. Yes, I know that. I have read this. But is this figure of seven million, is this the figure mentioned in the document?
A. It is written in that document, yes.
Q. Is this figure an exact figure?
A. That is a correct figure and I am asking the Tribunal also that I be allowed to read the two following sentences because you are accusing me of criminal methods. I have used my entire knowledge, energy and all the influence I had to prevent criminal methods and that is proof, these two following sentences which I shall now read.
Q. But, I am obliged to interrupt you again.
A. Please, may I add to the answer which I have already given and be allowed the possibility and may be granted by the Tribunal that I be allowed to read the following sentences under -
Q. Defendant Sauckel -
THE PRESIDENT: Let him read the two sentences he wants to read.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: But they are absolutely irrelevant to the question of imported workers to Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: I have not got a translation of the document, so I cannot tell. I want to hear him read the sentences. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. Then read them, please.
A. Beaten, undernourished and half desperate eastern workers, for instance, would be more of a burden to the war economy than an aid to it.
The prerequisite is that all offices and factories concerned have to be quite clear about this point, and this is my aim". tiousness through those two sentences and how I looked after my task which was a very difficult one for me.
THE PRESIDENT: Now defendant, will you kindly answer the questions and only explain when it is necessary as an explanation of the answer. All you were asked was whether the figure of 5,124,000 now in the first document was correct and whether the figure of seven million in the second document was correct and you said both of then were. BY THE WITNESS: I have already asnwered that it is correct, that the figure seven million -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we do not went any more explanation. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. I can understand perfectly well that you are not interested in increasing these terrible figures even by a unit, not to speak of millions.
Yesterday you stated that in '43 two million further came to Germany and in '44 a further million.
A I must definately rectify that. I did not say that at all. What is correct is that beginning in July 1942 and until the end of '43 approximately there were about two million foreign workers who came to Germany, not only in '43. From February '43 until the end of '43, for instance, only one million came to Germany because we already had considerable difficulties at that time but from June or July '42 until the end of '42 about a million arrived and in about one year and a half a total of about two million did come.
Q As to how many you got in '42, that is already known to us. Yesterday you stated quite definately that in '43 two million came in, Is that right? I am speaking of 1943. ly then it is not correct. What is correct is that from July '42 until the end of '43 about two million foreign workers were being employed in Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is not really interested in the exact number of foreign workers who came to Germany. It does not seem to us to make very much difference whether five million or six million or seven million came there. It is extremely difficult to follow the figures.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, I do not wish to determine with mathamatical exactness the numbers of workers brought to Germany but I consider it quite indispensable to grasp the scale of these crimes and therefore I would like Sauckel to determine how many workers were brought to Germany during the war.
THE PRESIDENT: I just told you we do not consider it important. You say that you do not wish to ascertain with mathematical accuracy but we have spent a considerable time in attempting to do so.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: This can be attributed to the fact that the defendant Sauckel is not answering the questions put to him. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: from occupied territories as slave labor, do you consider these methods as honorable methods of warefare and based on the ethics of moral exigencies?
Karr following statement.
It was my own firm, personal conviction it is no crime. tion to the answer. I have already given the answer.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment. General, you asked the defendant whether he consisdered it honorable. Now, he is perfectly entitled to answer that question and to answer it in his own way.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Let him answer yes or no.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not a question which admits of the answer yes or no. the question whether a thing is honorable. He is entitled to answer it freely.
THE WITNESS: After I have given a clearance, I beg that I may be allowed to state that to the best of my confidence I could not be convinced that I was committing a crime, and that I may read the principle sentences from the document Sauckel 86 as proof of my conviction.
These were the instructions which I had given to my department:
"We are not here concerned", I quote, "with material matters. I emphasize again, most definitely, that we are dealing with people, millions of people, every single one of whom, whether they want to or not, must, from his point of view--be he a German or a foreign worker--be critical. The performance of a human being, on the other hand, be he a member of our nation or not a member of our nation--that is, a foreign worker--be he a friend or be he an enemy, that performance must always depend on the question of whether he recognizes within himself that he is treated justly, or whether he arrives at the conclusion that he is unjustly treated and exposed to cruelties". ments:
"You must be just. Many questions will come to you; you cannot always answer them."
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want to go into a very long speech, you know, about a question like that. I mean, you don't want to read all your instructions to your subordinates.
THE WITNESS: I shall only read two more sentences, Your Lordship, if I may.
"The worker's life is so varied that you cannot put it in even many volumes. That is the feeling which every man has-
THE PRESIDENT Defendant, that is enough . We have heard enough. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q Defendant Sauckel, in July of 1944 a meeting was held in Hitler's offices, as to how one should treat foreign workers as a result of the successful advance of the Allied Armies. Do you have any knowledge of this meeting?
A May I ask you to give me the date again please?
Q It was in July of 1944. Do you know anything about this meeting, or don't you?
A I cannot remember for certain. Will you please put a document to me? I can not remember a meeting in June or July because from about the 20th of June, 1944, I was never admitted to the Fuehrer concerning any patters.
Q Then I do not need anything else. That means you do not know anything about this meeting. to Germany used? Were they utilized in war industry and ammunition industry? Is that correct? ment industry. The armament industry is a very wide field, and it is not identical with the manufacture of weapons and ammunition. Within the armament industry all such products like matches, for example, and some types of guns were included, which could be used in any way to supply the army. That means that this conception is a very wide one, and you must realize that it excludes the manufacture of ammunition and weapons. branches of the civilian and war economic system, such as agriculture mines, handicraft, and all that. It was broken down into three stages: time.
THE PRESIDENT: Here, we don't want a lecture upon that, you know. All you were asked was whether they were brought there for work in the armament industry.
THE WITNESS: Some of them. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV: to Germany were mainly used in Germany's war industry for war aims. Is that correct? I mean, in the broad sense of the word. tirely to the conduct of the war by Germany. Do you admit that?
A That is too wide a conception. My own views under which I acted at the time excluded the word "aggressive".
Q Please answer briefly if you can do so. Do you admit it or don't you?
bor in the occupied territories has already been clarified. Now I would like to go into the part played by the various ministries. ment agencies of Germany, played an immediate part in the mobilization and the utilization of foreign manpower? For example, the Ministry of Occupied Territories in the East, the Ministry of Armament, and the OKW were already mentioned here. Please enumerate them.
A. Your delegation has submitted a plan, Mr. Prosecutor, which contained small mistakes, which I haven't seen myself. That plan in its original was submitted to me. At any rate, that plan -- after the small mistakes have been rectified -- is clear and gives you the best explanation.
Q. Your defense counsel has stated here that this plan is not quite accurate. Therefore, I ask you which ministries of Nazi Germany, or other governmental agencies, played an immediate part in the mobilization and utilization of manpower, besides these which I have already mentioned.
THE PRESIDENT: General, he says that it is substantially correct, and that there was only one minor alteration suggested in it. Certainly that is sufficient for us.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: But the defense counsel for Sauckel stated himself that there are a number of errors. However, I will try to facilitate this task. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. Please tell me what part was played in this matter by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, for instance.
A. The Foreign Ministry had the following connection with this matter. embassies or German delegations were acting. Following that negotiations would then go on, usually under the chairmanship of the head of that delegation or embassy. The Foreign Office always made every attempt to have such negotiations conducted in a proper and correct form.
Q. On the 4th of January, 1944, a meeting was held in Hitler's office. This is document 1292-PS. In point 4 of the record of this meeting we read that the General Plenipotentiary for the Utilization of Manpower must, before taking measures, contact the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. What did that mean in this particular case?
A. In this particular case it was meant to indicate that if I had to carry on negotiations with the French or the Italian Government, I would first get in touch with the Foreign Ministry.