Did he try to incite against Christianity? ions of people and on thos occasions not only once but frequently characterized atheism, or being without God, as undesirable. In his speech von Schirach even before 1933 and thereafter--just to give the example of the sports society -- had some discussion in some of his speeches about this. He demanded the unity of youth, but on these occasions neither openly nor in any otherway did he attack Christianity or the religious convictions of other people.
Q Mr. Lauterbacher, during the true the Defendant von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader, were there negotiations regarding the conclusion of a Concordat with the Roman Catholic Church, so that relations between the State and the Church would be put on the basis of a contract? Do you know anything about this, that von Schirach participated in these Concordat standing with the Church and to bring about this understanding in such a way as to satisfy both sides?
A Yes. In the years 1933 and 1934 there were many conversations which Schirach had with the representatives of the Church.
Q Who were they? the representative from the Fulda Conference of Bishops, Berning of Osnabrueck. He had conversations with these gentlemen. And I recall that Schirach was interested in bringing about a limitation of the powers and jurisdiction of both sides, perhaps on a basis of giving to God what is God's and to giving to the State what belongs to the State.
Q Now, I have another question, Witness: Do you know whether von Schirach actually tried to bring about an understanding with the Hitler Yout and the Youth of other countries, whether he wanted to bring about this understanding? And can you cite examples of his activities in this direction? Tell us what he actually did. the rest of the world was without doubt one of those tasks which Schirach again and again was interested in having the Youth Leaders pursue. I always had the impression that this task was I might almost say his most personal passion.
I myself at his order -- and perhaps I might be a cardinal witness to this fact -- from 1935 onwards, twice or perhaps three times, I visited the various European countries so that I could get in touch with the existing youth organizations and also the organizations of combat soldiers of the First "World bar, to bring about contact with them.
Q Which States, for instance, did you visit?
frequent order of von Schirach visited England several times. There I
THE PRESIDENT:I don't think those facts are in dispute. It is merely the inference that is to be drawn from the facts that the Prosecution will rely upon. Therefore it is not necessary for you to go into the facts again, as to the connection of the Hitler Youth with the foreign youth.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr President. So we can turn to another topic; You were the Staff Leader of the Reich Youth Leadership. Do you know whether the leadership of the Hitler Jugend had spies abroad or agents abroad, or whether they trained people for Fifth Column activities in other countries -- and you know what a Fifth Column is,I take it:hat is the training of people in Germany so that they could act as parachutists back in their own co untries. During your entire activities as Staff Leader did you have any knowledge of anything like that at all? and Hitler Youth did not train any people like that in any country of Europe. Such a fact would have to be known to me under all circumstances and I knew nothing about it.
instigated anything like that, do you believe that through the channel of the reports from the Gebietsfuehrers, you would have had knowledge of it? have had word of this in the localities. The other day you told no about a conversation which took place at the end of September or the beginning of October--that is after the polish campaign and before the actual French war--a conversation which you had with the defendant von Schirach in your living quarters at Berlin, Dahlem, on which occasion the defendant von Schirach commented on his attitude toward the war. Will you describe this conversation to us briefly?
A Yes. Von Schirach visited no toward the end of September or the early part of October 1909. He visited me in my living quarters in Berlin, which I occupied at the time. Very quickly the conversation turned to war, and Schirach said that, in his opinion, this war should have been prevented. He hold the then Foreign Minister responsible for having advised Hitler inadequately or incorrectly. He regretted the fact that Hitler and the leading men of the state and of the party did not know Europe, did not know the world, and, without fully knowing the consequences, they had steered Germany into this war. ended within the briefest possible time, we would lose the war. In this connection he referred to the extraordinary war potential of the United States and England. He said--and I can remember this word very well--that this war was an unholy one and that if the German people were not to be plunged into misery, the Fuehrer would have to be advised and informed of the danger which would arise for Germany if America, either through deliveries of goods or through war itself, were to intervene. could have access to Hitler. Schirach at that time suggested try ing in some way to bring Colin Ross to Adolf Hitler.
Colin Ross was to call Hitler's attention to the imminent danger, and, without the presence of the Foreign Minister and without the Foreign Minister knowing anything about it, Hitler was to be informed by Colin Ross.
Colin Ross was not in Germany at that time. I recall that when he returned he was, through Schirach, brought in contact wit Hitler. discussion which took place at the end of September or the beginning of October 1939, the conversation which you just mentioned to us. I should like to have you answer the question, How was it th Dr. Colin Ross was chosen; how did you arrive at this conclusion having him go to Hitler?
A. I have already mentioned that the leadership of the National Socialist State and of the Party did not know the world and foreign countries at all, and consequently, this man who had travelled much and who had seen the world, would be the suitable one. In the years before 1939 Colin Ross had attended meetings of the Hitler Youth leadership and had addressed them.
Q. What about?
A. He was known to Schirach and the Hitler Youth.
Q. What were the topics he discussed before the Hitler Youth?
A. He discussed his travels abroad.
Q. On this occasion did you also discuss the matter of whether there should be a discussion of the Jewish problem, so that there would be a better understanding with other countries, and if so, just what was to be the basis for this solution? and he referred to his subsequent speech, and he said that in these circumstances, it would be extraordinarily difficult to start discussions with America, first of all, and that one should try, beforehand, and he wanted to suggest this to Hitler.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal does not think it is really sufficiently important to go into Schirach's private discussions with this witness. If he can say anything as to what Schirach did, it may be different, but now the witness is simply reciting the discussions which he had with Schirach, nothing more than private discussions. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, on the basis of these discussions, discussions between you and the defendant von Schirach, did Schirach actually act to keep the peace or did he do anything to shorten the war? If he did do anything, just what did he do?
A. Yes, as he told me later on, Schirach tried to make use of every opportunity at the beginning of the war to tell Hitler about the need of having discussions with America, and he tried to convince Hitler of this. Colin Ross later told me about this.
Schirach brought Colin Ross face to face with Hitler, in pursuance of this conviction. Colin Ross was with Hitler for several hours. Colin Ross, when he visited me at Hanover, told me about this discussion, and he said that Hitler had become very contemplative. He also said that a second discussion which had been planned with Hitler did not materialize, for, according to the picture he gave me, the Foreign Office was opposed to this way of having Hitler receive information and protested.
THE PRESIDENT: We win adjourn now.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thinks that this witness is dealing in great detail with matters which are of very little importance and the Tribunal wishes you to bring his attention to something which is of real importance.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I in any case only have got one more question. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Mr. Witness, one last question. In 1940, you separated from Schirach and I think you became a Gauleiter. particularly about the question why Schirach wasn't resigning. The reason I am putting this question to you is because one member of the prosecution has discussed the question once before already this morning. Will you tell us briefly what Schirach said at the time as the reason why he remained in his office or why he didn't resign and all that and how he judged the war -- in 1943, I think it was? there was a very long conversation between von Schirach and myself. At that time, von Schirach was talking about the prospect of the war in a very sentimental way and he was telling me that shortly we should be fighting outside Vienna along the Rhine and in the Alps. He said on that occasion, that for sometime already he hadn't been able to get to see Adolf Hitler and that he had had no opportunity any longer, as it used to be the custom to inform him, and that the Chief of the Party Chancellory, Bormann, had prevented his getting to see the Fuehrer and having a chat with him alone. The attitude was being consequently pursued and that he had no longer any opportunities to discuss any special or general questions with Hitler. He also mentioned in that connection that Bormann was coning to him with objections and complaints every day regarding cancellation of orders he had given in his capacity of Gauleiter in Vienna, for instance, and that principally speaking, it was no longer possible to remain in office and to continue to bear responsibility.
Later on, during that conversation, during which we talked about all sort of other subjects, he said that he had sworn an oath of allegiance to Hitler, after all, and he thought that he would have to remain in office under any circumstances and that, most of all, he thought that he could not be responsible for leaving in the lurch a population of whom he had been appointed Gauleiter. He said that he was prepared and sought to approach him but that a resignation or action of any kind wouldn't have any influence on the leader of the State and Hitler personally and that, therefore, he would behave like a soldier and remain in his office.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that already brings me to the end of the examination of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defense counsel want to ask him any questions?
DR. SERVATIUS: Defense counsel Servatius for Sauckel. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Witness, from 1940, you were Gauleiter in Hanover? Were there many foreign laborers in your Gau? This was mainly caused through the presence of the Reichswork Herma Georing, that was situated near Braunschweig.
Q Did you have to look after them? were in fact committed to looking after foreign laborers and worker.
Q Did Sauckel give instructions about that? tions from Sauckel regarding labor; that is to say, their welfare and looking after these civilian workers.
Q What was the type of these instructions? almost entirely with the repeated demands to do everything for the foreign workers as far as accommodations, eating, clothing, and their cultural welfare was concerned, and they should be well looke after.
Q. Was that carried out in practice?
A. Naturally, that was carried out within the limitations of the possibilities which existed.
Q Did you inspect work camps where those laborers worked?
A Yes. I, myself, on the occasion of official journeys visited such camps but most of all the actual works themselves. Apart from that, I had my deputy who was engaged in labor front work, and I had a man who would particularly support this part of my task. ditions? Braunschweig were particularly badly hit. I saw conditions in the foreign civilian labor camps and also in the living quarters of German people--well, I wouldn't call them catastrophic but certainly the worst conditions; subsequently, and as for as possibility existed, I tried, for instance, to repair those destroyed accommodations or have now living quarters erected. of these industrial enterprises?
A I do remember two such cases. In Hannover, several firm; had formed, shall we say, a ring of collaboration and they had erected a camp for their foreign civilian workers. Responsibility for that camp was in the hands of the trustees from these firms. one day, it was reported to me that living conditions did not comply with the instructions which existed and he asked my permission to interfere; that is to say, that from the German laborers front, he should be allowed to assume responsibility for that particular workers camp. I did give him the corresponding instructions and sometimes afterwards, he reported to me that these difficulties had been removed. Another example, the Reichsworks Herman Goering---Since I am speaking under oath here, I must mention that that firm, and in several respects, disregarded Sauckel's instructions.
For once, they were outside the jurisdiction of labor administration and then the jurisdiction over branch business in the Ukraine--and by that means, laborers were recruited. These laborers arrived outside the contingents supplied by the Plenipotentiary for Labor in Germany and, therefore, they did not come under his responsibility when they arrived on the site of the Reichswork--only after overcoming considerable difficulties, did I succeed in entering the works and the camp. It wasn't by any means of the case that I as Gauleiter and Plenipotentiary could without ---
THE PRESIDENT: What has that to do with the defendant Sauckel?
DR. SERVATIUS: I had asked him regarding deficiencies which he might have seen when he was Plenipotentiary for the use of foreign workers, controlled, which he had to do, whether such deficiencies existed. Those he had to report, so that finally they would go to Sauckel. He has gone rather far afield in his story and he is now speaking about the Hermann Goering Works.
THE PRESIDENT: You should stop him, Dr. Servatius. You know the question you were asking.
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Did you see deficiencies in the camp?
A. I could not 30 into the camp, because I was not allowed to.
Q. Did Sauckel personally speak to the workers in the Gau?
A. No, not while I was active there. But he repeatedly sent his official down.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have now got some questions to put on behalf of the political leader corps, Mr. President. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. When you were appointed Gauleiter, did you receive special instructions from the Fuehrer?
A. No, On the occasion when I was appointed Gauleiter, I was merely appointed Gauleiter, or introduced as Gauleiter, during a meeting of Gauleiters by Mr. Hess. But on the occasion of that meeting, I received no special instructions.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Witness, the answer was "no"; and you did not need to add to it at all. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Did you later talk to the Fuehrer and receive any special orders or instructions?
A. It was only on the occasion of Gauleiter meetings that I went to the Fuehrer, and I never had any official discussions with him.
Q. Do you know anything about the activities of Block Leaders? In particular, I want to ask you, were they used for services as spies?
A. No.
Q. But there seems to be widespread opinion that in fact Block Leaders did act as spies and informers. The prosecution has mentioned that. Did the SD perhaps use Block Leaders for that purpose?
A. The SD had other leaders for that. They had veteran men who were not known among the parties. At any rate, Block Leaders had no instructions to carry out such activities.
Q. Was there not a card index system of party opponents not in the party organization?
A. As far as I know, and as I heard on the occasion of the 20th of July 1944, that card index system was kept by the Secret State Police.
Q. Did they use confidence men who may not have been Block Leaders but who worked for you as Gauleiter?
A. No.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions. BY MR. DODD:
Q. When did you join the SS, Mr. Witness?
A. On the occasion of being nominated Deputy Gauleiter, on the 2nd of August, 1940, I became SS brigade leader.
Q. I am sorry; I cannot get the answer.
A. On the occasion of my nomination as Deputy Gauleiter on the 2nd of August, 1940, I became SS brigade leader.
Q. I did not hear your answer as to when you first joined the SS. Would you repeat it, please?
A. On the 2nd of August, 1940.
Q. You had not belonged before that date to the organization at all?
A. Before that date I was not a member of the SS. But from the 22nd of May, 1940 to September, 1940, I served in the Waffen SS, as a soldier.
Q. And then you later became an SS Obergruppenfuehrer, did you?
A. On the 20th of April, 1944.
Q. And when did you join the staff of Himmler?
A. I have never been a member of Himmler's staff.
Q. Did you not join it in January of 1944, or what would you say that you did join in the Reichsfuehrer SS Organization? Perhaps I have used the wrong term, "staff". There is some other name for it. Were you not affiliated in some way with Himmler.
A. No, I never had any SS task.
Q. Did you have any connection with the Reichsfuehrer SS from January of 1944 on?
A. In October, 1944, the Reichsfuehrer SS was on special training at the frontier near Bad Pyrment, on the occasion of a meeting of Eastern German Gualeiters and high SS gauleiters.
On that occasion, I had been ordered to appear, and during official business, I had a talk with him.
Q. That is not what I asked; but I will pass it. Did you become an SA Obergruppenfuehrer in 1944, as well as an SS Obergruppenfuehrer?
A. I became an SA Obergruppenfuehrer, I thin, in 1944 or 1943.
Q. You were also a member of the Reichstag in 1936, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And a member of the Party, I guess you said, since 1927; is that right?
A. 1927, yes.
Q. And a member of the Hitler Youth, or NSDAP, since 1923?
A. I became a member of the Hitler Youth in 1927. It was not formed before that,
Q. Whenever it was, the Youth Organization of the Party; that is what I mean. How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hannover?
A. I did not understand the question.
Q. I said, How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hannover?
A. I hanged nobody publicly.
Q. Are you sure about that?
A. Yes.
Q. How many people did you send to concentration camps?
A. Perhaps 5 or 10 persons, because they violated war economy regulations, were put before ordinary courts by me. And in one case which I remember particularly well, there were two people who refused -
Q. (Interposing) Well, I do not care about the details. Just tell me how many you sent.
A. There were two who sent to concentration camps. Whether they were sent to concentration camps, that I do not know, because I myself could not have them admitted there.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Huck, H-U-C-K, Heinrich Huck?
A. No. No, I do not seem to know the name.
Q. The Police Commissar under your Gau, or in your Gau?
A. No, I do not know him.
Q. I want to ask, did you not have a foreign worker from one of the eastern countries hanged publicly in the market square, and to remain there a whole day, at one time while you were the Gauleiter up there?
A. No. Where was that supposed to have happened?
Q. It is supposed to have happened in Hildesheim.
A. No.
Q. In March of 1945, just before the war ended.
A. No. That is unknown to me. I have never given any such instructions.
Q. Did you order 400 or 500 prisoners poisoned or shot just before the city was taken by an Allied army?
A. No. That, case was put before me in London, and I think I clarified it.
Q. You know what I am talking about, then?
A. Yes, the penitentiary at Hammeln.
Q. You know that your Kreisleiter says that you ordered them poisoned with either prussic acid or strychnine, or else they were to be shot?
You know about that, do you not?
A. I was told about that in London.
Q. And not only does your Kreisleiter say that, but Richard Rother, who was an inspector at the prison at Hammeln, confirms that the order was passed on that they were to be poisoned or shot; do you know about that as well?
A. I have never given any such order.
Q. I am asking you if you know that these people associated with you have sworn under oath that you did. You have seen these affidavits, have you not?
A. I have been informed of it in London; but I was also told that inmates of that penitentiary were neither poisoned nor shot, but transported back.
Q. Yes, they were, but not because of you, but because your people refused to carry out your orders; is that so?
A. I have no knowledge of that, because I was no longer with Hammeln and no longer in my Gau.
Q. You have seen these affidavits; so I do not think there is any need to hand them to you. But I am going to offer them in evidence.
A. The statement Kreisleiter Dr. Kraemer was put before me in London, and I replied to it.
Q. Very well. You know what he says, then?
MR. DODD: I offer this D 861 as U.S.A. Exhibit 874, Mr. President. It is a document consisting of seven affidavits from persons associated with this witness when he was the Gauleiter, and having to do with his conduct while he was Gauleiter there.
THE PRESIDENT: How do you suggest that that evidence is relevant?
MR. DODD: I offer them in relation to this man's credibility, or rather lack of it. I do not think that they have anything to do directly with the case, other than they show the kind of individual he is, as we claim, and that the Tribunal should have this information before it when it considers the weight it will give to his testimony.
I have also just been reminded my friend Mr. Elwyn Jones that, of cours it would have a bearing on the issue of the leadership cause of the Nazi Party, of which he is a member. That had not occurred to me, however. However, I do wish to claim it as a ground, also, for this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Where are the people who made these affidavits?
MR DODD: Mr. President, I will have to enquire. I don't know.
DR. SAUTER: Mr President, you have just enquired where these people are from whom these affidavits originated. Perhaps I can assist you in clarifying these questions. This Dr. Kraemer, whom the prosecution have just quoted as the leading witness against this witness Lauterbacher, was, some eight or ten days ago, sent to seven years imprisnment by an English Court and this for the same reason which the prosecutor has just mentioned. Mr. Lauterbacher doesn't know anything about this matter, but quite accidentally I read it in a German newspaper. I read a report about this trial and I have got that report before me. In that article, dated May the 2nd, it is mentioned that the former Kreisleiter of Hammeln, Josef Krammer-that is the same as the one we are concerned with -- was sentenced by the Court of the Fifth British division to seven years imprisonment, and I quote from that article: "upon the approach of allied troops Kreamer had given the order for the 'liquidation' --"and that is quoted --" *--* the inmates of the penitentiary at Hammeln. 'No dangerous prisoner and no foreigner may fall into the hands of the enemy; so he says, 'They must all be poisoned with prussic acid or, if that doesn't work they will have to be shot." That was the wording of the order which former Kreisleiter Josef Kraemer had given, who is now being used as a witness against my witness here, Then this report goes on to say: "Former officials at the penitentiary who appeared as witness have stated that in spite of this order from Mr. Kraemer they had refused to remove or 'liquidate the prisoners." That isn't interesting, but I thought that perhaps it might be of importance for the Tribunal when dealing with this question, when they can see from a document how, in reality, this former Kreisleiter has behaved. The newspaper clipping, if you are interested, Mr. President, althogh it is in German, can be submitted to you at once.
MR. DOO: May I say, Mr. President, that perfectly substantiates the document; that is, Kraemer says in here that is what he did, that he passed orders on but that he got them from this an. If anything, supports us. It doesn't hurt us one whit in so far as the value of this document is concerned. and the last one. There are some others in this group that are not particularly helpful, I expect, for the Court, I shall withdraw all but the first and last and offer only the affidavit of Kraemer and the affidavit of Huck.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, the Tribunal does not think that these documents ought to be admitted. In the first place, so far as the credit of the particular witness is concerned, they do not think that his answers on questions of credit ought to be challenged by othe r evidence. So far as the Leadership Corps is concerned, they think that these document are only evidence of one individual crime.
MR. DODD: Very well, Mr. President. BY MR. DODD. Schiracht say anything really derogator of the Jewish people, and, on the contrary you heard him speak out quite openly after the events of November 9, 1933. Did I understand you correctly?
Q Don't go all through it again; I just wanted to be sure that I understood you correctly. to the Reich Youth Leader.
AAt the moment I don't know what was in that book. If I could have a look at it -
Q Of course I don't expect you to. I merely wanted to ascertain that you did read it. I suppose you always read your yearbook.
Q What, you didn't read it?
A I can't remember that I have, no.
Q Well, wouldn't it be customary for you to read the yearbook? Let's put it that way. journalistic conception, or the periodicals which it printed. I could not influence. And in fact, at least so far as any material referred to ant-Semitic atrocities, I did not approve of or read it. article in the Yearbook concerning the Jewish people. Do you know what I refer to? where they were charged with having spilled the blood of millions of dead in history That was put out, I assume, after the brave statements by the defendant in November of 1938, since it is a or the whole year of 1938. You will find the article that I refer to on page 129.
Q Hve you seen that article before?
A No. That yearbook had no official character. What was printed was entirely a matter for the editor.
Q What do you mean "it bad no official character"? It was the Yearbook of the Hitler Youth, was it not?
A This Yearbook was not officially edited by the Party or the HJ. Incidental I never did see it until afterwards.
Q It was published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP, was it not?
Q It was called "The Yearbook of the Hitler Youth", and you put it out for a good many years consecutively, did you not? I don't mean you personally, but I mean the party and the Hitler Youth. ned there, and, in fact, other gentlemen as well. They compiled and edited it.
Q I know that. I am simply trying to establish this, that this was the Yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was put out, and it was put out each year. Not isn't that so? character.
Q Well, what would you say would you give it an official character?
A If it said here, "Published by the Reich Youth Leader's office", at that moment it would assume official character.
Q And the fact that it said "Published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP" would not give it one, is that it?
Q You didn't put out any other publications in the nature of a yearbook, did you, except this one?
Q Well, I am certainly not talking about a calendar; I am talking about a report or a book. book of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was published in Germany? character. Schirach, as leader of the Reich Youth, was not actively speaking about the Jews in a derogatory sort of way,or that talk of this kind was not going on under his leadership? any doubt regarding his anti-Semitic attitude. deporting the Jews from Vienna? Are you familiar with that speech?
A No, I don't know that speech. During that time I was in However, and Schirach was in Vienna.
Q Yes. He was a follow Gauleiter at that time. in the East?
A Never. I never received SS reports or circulars or orders.
Q Did you deport any Jews from your Gau? emigrated.
Q They were already out by the time yon got there?
or from Himmler a bout what was happening to the Jews in the East? Did any of your fellow Gauleiters ever tell you that they got reports regularly, say by the month or by the week?
A No. Those reports were no more accessible to Gauleiters than they were to the honorary leaders of the SS. I, as Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS, have never received a report or an instruction from Himmler.
Q Those Himmler reports were handled pretty carefully, weren't they? something about it -- were those Himmler and Heydrich reports handled very carefully?
AAs an SS Obergruppenfuehrer I never received any of Himmler's reports. I know that all reports dealing with confidential SS matters were only sent to SS leaders who were serving in the SS. Only they received them, and not the honorary leaders. they were sent out, were very carefully handled. Do you know the answer to that?
A I don't know how those reports were handled; I don't know.
Q What was Heydrich's reputation, so far as you were concerned, in 1942? Did you think very well of him or did you think very poorly of him before he was killed? Leader's Office, and the personal impression he made on me was good. My opinion about him must, perforce, be different today, but only today, after I know of his measures.
Q What was he doing in the Reich Youth Leader's Office the few times that you met him? What business did he have there? of homosexuality. Schirach had resented that and had told him to stop it. He told him that those matters too were, first of all, to come under his own jurisdiction.