BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Did you see deficiencies in the camp?
A. I could not 30 into the camp, because I was not allowed to.
Q. Did Sauckel personally speak to the workers in the Gau?
A. No, not while I was active there. But he repeatedly sent his official down.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have now got some questions to put on behalf of the political leader corps, Mr. President. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. When you were appointed Gauleiter, did you receive special instructions from the Fuehrer?
A. No, On the occasion when I was appointed Gauleiter, I was merely appointed Gauleiter, or introduced as Gauleiter, during a meeting of Gauleiters by Mr. Hess. But on the occasion of that meeting, I received no special instructions.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Witness, the answer was "no"; and you did not need to add to it at all. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Did you later talk to the Fuehrer and receive any special orders or instructions?
A. It was only on the occasion of Gauleiter meetings that I went to the Fuehrer, and I never had any official discussions with him.
Q. Do you know anything about the activities of Block Leaders? In particular, I want to ask you, were they used for services as spies?
A. No.
Q. But there seems to be widespread opinion that in fact Block Leaders did act as spies and informers. The prosecution has mentioned that. Did the SD perhaps use Block Leaders for that purpose?
A. The SD had other leaders for that. They had veteran men who were not known among the parties. At any rate, Block Leaders had no instructions to carry out such activities.
Q. Was there not a card index system of party opponents not in the party organization?
A. As far as I know, and as I heard on the occasion of the 20th of July 1944, that card index system was kept by the Secret State Police.
Q. Did they use confidence men who may not have been Block Leaders but who worked for you as Gauleiter?
A. No.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions. BY MR. DODD:
Q. When did you join the SS, Mr. Witness?
A. On the occasion of being nominated Deputy Gauleiter, on the 2nd of August, 1940, I became SS brigade leader.
Q. I am sorry; I cannot get the answer.
A. On the occasion of my nomination as Deputy Gauleiter on the 2nd of August, 1940, I became SS brigade leader.
Q. I did not hear your answer as to when you first joined the SS. Would you repeat it, please?
A. On the 2nd of August, 1940.
Q. You had not belonged before that date to the organization at all?
A. Before that date I was not a member of the SS. But from the 22nd of May, 1940 to September, 1940, I served in the Waffen SS, as a soldier.
Q. And then you later became an SS Obergruppenfuehrer, did you?
A. On the 20th of April, 1944.
Q. And when did you join the staff of Himmler?
A. I have never been a member of Himmler's staff.
Q. Did you not join it in January of 1944, or what would you say that you did join in the Reichsfuehrer SS Organization? Perhaps I have used the wrong term, "staff". There is some other name for it. Were you not affiliated in some way with Himmler.
A. No, I never had any SS task.
Q. Did you have any connection with the Reichsfuehrer SS from January of 1944 on?
A. In October, 1944, the Reichsfuehrer SS was on special training at the frontier near Bad Pyrment, on the occasion of a meeting of Eastern German Gualeiters and high SS gauleiters.
On that occasion, I had been ordered to appear, and during official business, I had a talk with him.
Q. That is not what I asked; but I will pass it. Did you become an SA Obergruppenfuehrer in 1944, as well as an SS Obergruppenfuehrer?
A. I became an SA Obergruppenfuehrer, I thin, in 1944 or 1943.
Q. You were also a member of the Reichstag in 1936, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And a member of the Party, I guess you said, since 1927; is that right?
A. 1927, yes.
Q. And a member of the Hitler Youth, or NSDAP, since 1923?
A. I became a member of the Hitler Youth in 1927. It was not formed before that,
Q. Whenever it was, the Youth Organization of the Party; that is what I mean. How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hannover?
A. I did not understand the question.
Q. I said, How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hannover?
A. I hanged nobody publicly.
Q. Are you sure about that?
A. Yes.
Q. How many people did you send to concentration camps?
A. Perhaps 5 or 10 persons, because they violated war economy regulations, were put before ordinary courts by me. And in one case which I remember particularly well, there were two people who refused -
Q. (Interposing) Well, I do not care about the details. Just tell me how many you sent.
A. There were two who sent to concentration camps. Whether they were sent to concentration camps, that I do not know, because I myself could not have them admitted there.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Huck, H-U-C-K, Heinrich Huck?
A. No. No, I do not seem to know the name.
Q. The Police Commissar under your Gau, or in your Gau?
A. No, I do not know him.
Q. I want to ask, did you not have a foreign worker from one of the eastern countries hanged publicly in the market square, and to remain there a whole day, at one time while you were the Gauleiter up there?
A. No. Where was that supposed to have happened?
Q. It is supposed to have happened in Hildesheim.
A. No.
Q. In March of 1945, just before the war ended.
A. No. That is unknown to me. I have never given any such instructions.
Q. Did you order 400 or 500 prisoners poisoned or shot just before the city was taken by an Allied army?
A. No. That, case was put before me in London, and I think I clarified it.
Q. You know what I am talking about, then?
A. Yes, the penitentiary at Hammeln.
Q. You know that your Kreisleiter says that you ordered them poisoned with either prussic acid or strychnine, or else they were to be shot?
You know about that, do you not?
A. I was told about that in London.
Q. And not only does your Kreisleiter say that, but Richard Rother, who was an inspector at the prison at Hammeln, confirms that the order was passed on that they were to be poisoned or shot; do you know about that as well?
A. I have never given any such order.
Q. I am asking you if you know that these people associated with you have sworn under oath that you did. You have seen these affidavits, have you not?
A. I have been informed of it in London; but I was also told that inmates of that penitentiary were neither poisoned nor shot, but transported back.
Q. Yes, they were, but not because of you, but because your people refused to carry out your orders; is that so?
A. I have no knowledge of that, because I was no longer with Hammeln and no longer in my Gau.
Q. You have seen these affidavits; so I do not think there is any need to hand them to you. But I am going to offer them in evidence.
A. The statement Kreisleiter Dr. Kraemer was put before me in London, and I replied to it.
Q. Very well. You know what he says, then?
MR. DODD: I offer this D 861 as U.S.A. Exhibit 874, Mr. President. It is a document consisting of seven affidavits from persons associated with this witness when he was the Gauleiter, and having to do with his conduct while he was Gauleiter there.
THE PRESIDENT: How do you suggest that that evidence is relevant?
MR. DODD: I offer them in relation to this man's credibility, or rather lack of it. I do not think that they have anything to do directly with the case, other than they show the kind of individual he is, as we claim, and that the Tribunal should have this information before it when it considers the weight it will give to his testimony.
I have also just been reminded my friend Mr. Elwyn Jones that, of cours it would have a bearing on the issue of the leadership cause of the Nazi Party, of which he is a member. That had not occurred to me, however. However, I do wish to claim it as a ground, also, for this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Where are the people who made these affidavits?
MR DODD: Mr. President, I will have to enquire. I don't know.
DR. SAUTER: Mr President, you have just enquired where these people are from whom these affidavits originated. Perhaps I can assist you in clarifying these questions. This Dr. Kraemer, whom the prosecution have just quoted as the leading witness against this witness Lauterbacher, was, some eight or ten days ago, sent to seven years imprisnment by an English Court and this for the same reason which the prosecutor has just mentioned. Mr. Lauterbacher doesn't know anything about this matter, but quite accidentally I read it in a German newspaper. I read a report about this trial and I have got that report before me. In that article, dated May the 2nd, it is mentioned that the former Kreisleiter of Hammeln, Josef Krammer-that is the same as the one we are concerned with -- was sentenced by the Court of the Fifth British division to seven years imprisonment, and I quote from that article: "upon the approach of allied troops Kreamer had given the order for the 'liquidation' --"and that is quoted --" *--* the inmates of the penitentiary at Hammeln. 'No dangerous prisoner and no foreigner may fall into the hands of the enemy; so he says, 'They must all be poisoned with prussic acid or, if that doesn't work they will have to be shot." That was the wording of the order which former Kreisleiter Josef Kraemer had given, who is now being used as a witness against my witness here, Then this report goes on to say: "Former officials at the penitentiary who appeared as witness have stated that in spite of this order from Mr. Kraemer they had refused to remove or 'liquidate the prisoners." That isn't interesting, but I thought that perhaps it might be of importance for the Tribunal when dealing with this question, when they can see from a document how, in reality, this former Kreisleiter has behaved. The newspaper clipping, if you are interested, Mr. President, althogh it is in German, can be submitted to you at once.
MR. DOO: May I say, Mr. President, that perfectly substantiates the document; that is, Kraemer says in here that is what he did, that he passed orders on but that he got them from this an. If anything, supports us. It doesn't hurt us one whit in so far as the value of this document is concerned. and the last one. There are some others in this group that are not particularly helpful, I expect, for the Court, I shall withdraw all but the first and last and offer only the affidavit of Kraemer and the affidavit of Huck.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, the Tribunal does not think that these documents ought to be admitted. In the first place, so far as the credit of the particular witness is concerned, they do not think that his answers on questions of credit ought to be challenged by othe r evidence. So far as the Leadership Corps is concerned, they think that these document are only evidence of one individual crime.
MR. DODD: Very well, Mr. President. BY MR. DODD. Schiracht say anything really derogator of the Jewish people, and, on the contrary you heard him speak out quite openly after the events of November 9, 1933. Did I understand you correctly?
Q Don't go all through it again; I just wanted to be sure that I understood you correctly. to the Reich Youth Leader.
AAt the moment I don't know what was in that book. If I could have a look at it -
Q Of course I don't expect you to. I merely wanted to ascertain that you did read it. I suppose you always read your yearbook.
Q What, you didn't read it?
A I can't remember that I have, no.
Q Well, wouldn't it be customary for you to read the yearbook? Let's put it that way. journalistic conception, or the periodicals which it printed. I could not influence. And in fact, at least so far as any material referred to ant-Semitic atrocities, I did not approve of or read it. article in the Yearbook concerning the Jewish people. Do you know what I refer to? where they were charged with having spilled the blood of millions of dead in history That was put out, I assume, after the brave statements by the defendant in November of 1938, since it is a or the whole year of 1938. You will find the article that I refer to on page 129.
Q Hve you seen that article before?
A No. That yearbook had no official character. What was printed was entirely a matter for the editor.
Q What do you mean "it bad no official character"? It was the Yearbook of the Hitler Youth, was it not?
A This Yearbook was not officially edited by the Party or the HJ. Incidental I never did see it until afterwards.
Q It was published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP, was it not?
Q It was called "The Yearbook of the Hitler Youth", and you put it out for a good many years consecutively, did you not? I don't mean you personally, but I mean the party and the Hitler Youth. ned there, and, in fact, other gentlemen as well. They compiled and edited it.
Q I know that. I am simply trying to establish this, that this was the Yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was put out, and it was put out each year. Not isn't that so? character.
Q Well, what would you say would you give it an official character?
A If it said here, "Published by the Reich Youth Leader's office", at that moment it would assume official character.
Q And the fact that it said "Published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP" would not give it one, is that it?
Q You didn't put out any other publications in the nature of a yearbook, did you, except this one?
Q Well, I am certainly not talking about a calendar; I am talking about a report or a book. book of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was published in Germany? character. Schirach, as leader of the Reich Youth, was not actively speaking about the Jews in a derogatory sort of way,or that talk of this kind was not going on under his leadership? any doubt regarding his anti-Semitic attitude. deporting the Jews from Vienna? Are you familiar with that speech?
A No, I don't know that speech. During that time I was in However, and Schirach was in Vienna.
Q Yes. He was a follow Gauleiter at that time. in the East?
A Never. I never received SS reports or circulars or orders.
Q Did you deport any Jews from your Gau? emigrated.
Q They were already out by the time yon got there?
or from Himmler a bout what was happening to the Jews in the East? Did any of your fellow Gauleiters ever tell you that they got reports regularly, say by the month or by the week?
A No. Those reports were no more accessible to Gauleiters than they were to the honorary leaders of the SS. I, as Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS, have never received a report or an instruction from Himmler.
Q Those Himmler reports were handled pretty carefully, weren't they? something about it -- were those Himmler and Heydrich reports handled very carefully?
AAs an SS Obergruppenfuehrer I never received any of Himmler's reports. I know that all reports dealing with confidential SS matters were only sent to SS leaders who were serving in the SS. Only they received them, and not the honorary leaders. they were sent out, were very carefully handled. Do you know the answer to that?
A I don't know how those reports were handled; I don't know.
Q What was Heydrich's reputation, so far as you were concerned, in 1942? Did you think very well of him or did you think very poorly of him before he was killed? Leader's Office, and the personal impression he made on me was good. My opinion about him must, perforce, be different today, but only today, after I know of his measures.
Q What was he doing in the Reich Youth Leader's Office the few times that you met him? What business did he have there? of homosexuality. Schirach had resented that and had told him to stop it. He told him that those matters too were, first of all, to come under his own jurisdiction.
how many there were, did you not? question in the Hitler Youth Leader's office.
Q Tell us this. Did it appear to you, from what you saw and heard there, that Heydrich and Schirach were very friendly, or on a very friendly basis? one of the officials from the Reich Youth Leader's office who was talking to Heydrich as the Chief of the HJ Legal Administration.
Q Were you ever present when Heydrich talked to von Schirach? Were you ever present?
A No; no. to you about Heydrich?
A No, I can't remember that.
MR. DODD: We have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. SAUTER: With the permission of the President, I shall now call my next witness, Gustav Hoepken. fellows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name, please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Mr. Hoepken, I have already examined you on the Schirach case in the prison? always wait a little after each question before you give your answer so that the interpreters can catch up?
Q How old ere you?
Q What does your father do?
Q And yourself?
Q You are now in American detention, are you not?
Q Since when?
Q Have the prosecution interrogated you about this matter?
Q When did you join the Hitler Youth?
Q Please, will you always wait before you answer?
You joined the Hitler Youth in 1933?
Q How old were you at that time?
Q And in what capacity did you join? Unterbannfuehrer of the Hitler Youth.
Q Unterbannfuehrer?
Q Was that your main occupation, or was that an honorary capacity?
Q Please, tell you speak more slowly, and tell you repeat that?
Q And in 1935? PT in schools.
Q But that had nothing to do with the HJ, did it? which I led. apart from that, an honorary leader of the HJ?
the unit of Hitler Youth at Potsdam. Leader office, did you? Leader under Von Schirach then in 1939.
Q And how long did you hold that office?
Q Before you joined Schirach's staff did you not serve in the armed forces? maneuvers in the air force, and apart from that I had no military training. until then. I was not an officer. importance to their being officers or trained soldiers? that is, officers were either officers or soldiers to the country. It was his view and he told me repeatedly that soldiers and officers as far as he could see were leaders to the youngsters. it interminably, I just want to ask you one single question, and that particular because you were sport instructor, or you are sport instructor officially. It is a question about the training of Hitler Youth in shooting. Were they trained militarily in that respect, or how were they trained? They were not using military weapons for shooting.
Q In that case I won't put any further questions to you but there is one other thing in which I am interested and that is the relationship to the Church. Do you know, witness, whether the defendant Von Schirach in 1937, that is, of the 14th of January 1937, issue of the Berliner Zeitung there was an article which his press officer, Mr. Kaufman, had written, and which was headed: "Can the Gap Be Bridged?" That article, a copy of which I have before me deals with a problem in which I am interested, and that is why I want to ask you:
Do you know what Schirach had written through his press officer in that article about that question, whether the Leaders of Hitler Youth should consider the church service requirements or not? Youth Leaders stating that on Sundays there should be no duties in the H J, as all boys and girls who wanted to could visit the church service. Every boy and girl in the Hitler Youth of that time had the possibility of attending religious services of their own free will and he made it a duty for the H J Leaders at the time that there were not to be any arguments about any controversy of that kind. He prohibited that.
Q Mr. Witness, this is a point in that article on the 14th of January, 1937, but you know the defendant, Von Schirach, had certain difficulties because of this article, difficulties coming from Hitler. Will you tell us briefly what you know about it? made that article in the Berliner Tagesblatt, the day that article appeared, Von Schirach was in Rosenberg's office for the purpose of attending a meeting. At that time Schirach was called to the telephone to talk to Hitler, first of all because of the agreement between the Church and the H J and because of the publication of that article Schirach was reproached by Hitler, and to serve the purpose that the agreement should be cancelled in that wry, further printing of that paper was to be discontinued, neither of which two purposes were achieved.
Q It was used to withdraw that article?
Q In 1940, you together with Schirach went to dinner?
Q When did you?
Q Where had you been in the meantime? force and at that time I was a soldier. I was one of a group of flying instructors of the air force.
Q And then you did not join Schirach's staff until 1941, is that right?
Innitzer, right? you right now why I am asking you this, whether it is true that Innitzer did interfere with the Hitler Youth and ordered it what to do and so on and so forth? Cardinal Innitzer. He wasn't allowed to do so. He said, firstly, there was a decree from the Chief of the Party, Lieutenant Borhmann, who prohibited Gauleiters from getting into contact with higher officers of the Church. actually, it was known to Schirach that he, himself, was under serveillance.
Q Schirach? such a discussion that it would certainly be known to Lieutenant Borhmann on the next day and that would have been unfortunate for us both, that is to say, Schirach as well as Cardinal Innitzer. On the other hand, it was Schirach's view that Cardinal Innitzer would certain also like to have had a talk with Schirach and Schirach thought that certainly would not have been the case if Cardinal Innitzer had not known of his own tolerant attitude toward the Church and the Christian Religion. It is furthermore known to me, and I think this happened in the winter of 1944-1945 that Cardinal Innitzer when returning from a mass was molested by youthful civilians. Cardinal Innitzer had the names of these youngsters established by the police, and it turned out that they were Hitler Youth Leaders. Still on the sane day Schirach wanted the District Leaders of the Hitler Youth to come and see him and it was demanded from him that the Youth Leaders in question should be relieved of their duties at once, which, so far as I know was actually done. I can also remember that Schirach either personally or through one of his officials had a letter of apology sent to Cardinal Innitzer.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 28 May, 1946, at 1000 hours.)
THE MARSHAL. : The report is made that Defendant Goering is absent.
THE PRESIDENT: We were going to deal with Defendant Bormann's documents, were we not?
DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President, two,witnesses only have arrived so far. Three essential witnesses are still missing. Perhaps the Court can help to bring these witnesses quickly so that the case will not fall apart. They are the witnesses Stothfang and Hildebrandt. I have repeatedly tried to get them but they are not here yet. I have not spoken to the witnesses yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Have they been located?
DR. BERGOLD :Yes. One is in a camp Cassel, which is a few hours from here, and the other is in Neumenster. That is a little farther, perhaps six or seven hours from here.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not in accordance with the information which the Tribunal has. The Tribunal has the information that they can not be found.
DR. BERGOLD :I received the information that their whereabout has been ascertained.
THE PRESIDENT: Who did you receive that information from?
DR. BERGOLD :Officially, from the General Secretary.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will make inquiry about it.
SIR DAVID FYFE: My Lord, First, with regard to the witnesses applied for for the Defendant Bormann. They are, as I understand it, Fraulein Krueger to whom we have no objection. The witness Mueller is no longer applied for?
DR. BERGOLD: No, I have dispensed with that witness.
SIR DAVID FYFE: Then, Klopper, and lastly, Friedrich. These are with regard to Bormann's law making activities, and the prosecution have no objections.
DR. BERGOLD: In place of the witness Mueller, whom I have withdrawn, I have an additional request for the witness Gerta Christian on the some subject for which I had requested the witness Mueller.
THE PRESIDENT: The first witness, Miss Krueger, is going to speak to exactly the same facts, isn't she, to the death of Bormann.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. The last of the life of Bormann its not very clear. It is very n ecessary to hear all of the available witnesses on this subject because only from the total of the testimony can one get the certainty of impression which I endeavor to obtain, that the witness Bormann is already dead.
THE PRESIDENT: It doesn't seem to be a very relevant fact. It is very remotely relevant whether he is dead or whether he is dive.
The question is whether he is guilty or innocent.
DR. BERGOLD: It is my point of view that sentence can not be passed against a dead man. That is not provided for in the charter. According to the charter, the court can only condemn an absent person, but a dead person can not be included under the term "absent". If the defendatn is dead, the charter does not give any possibility of continuing proceedings against him.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, have you any objection to that other witness?
SIR DAVID FYFE: No, My Lord, the prosecution do not make any objections.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
SIR DAVID FYFE: Now, My Lord, with regard to the documents, the first batch of documents are a series of treaties and diplomatic pronouncements and documents to counteract the statement of Sir Hartley Shawcross as to the position of the international law before the charter, the statement that the Axis nations had constituted aggressive war and international crime before this Tribunal was established and this charter became part of the law of the world. The position of the prosecution is that evidence on that point is really irrelevant because after all, the Tribunal is covered by the charter, and it seems unnecessary to translate and publish, by way of document books, all these matters which the learned Counsel has set out in his application.
That is, shortly, the position of the prosecution with regard to that first batch of documents. Especially, I don't want to discuss the problem for the reason that I have given.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. What are the numbers of them?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: One to eleven -- no. 1 to 7. They are in the application.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Are they long documents?
DR. BERGOLD: I have not seen them yet. I applied for these documents three months ago, i norder to look them over, but I have not received them yet and unfortunately I cannot give the Court any information as to whether they are long or not and what parts of them I will need for my defense.
THE PRESIDENT: I looks like a long document.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, my Lord.
DR. BERGOLD: But I won't read everything that is in this document, if I have it. Presumably -
THE PRESIDENT: When you say you applied for them three months ago, you don't mean you applied to the Tribunal, do you?
DR. BERGOLD: I applied to the General Secretary, but perhaps it was put aside when your Lordship decided that my case would be postponed to the end. Perhaps it was forgotten.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any order on your application?
DR. BERGOLD: No.
THE PRESIDENT: You applied, I think, for an adjournment, didn't you, in order that the matter might be brought up later?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. I am in an especially difficult situation, your Lordship. I have tried very hard but I can find nothing further on the defense of Bormann. All the witnesses are antogonistic to him and they want to place the guilt on him rather than contribute to his exoneration. That makes my case difficult. The man is probably dead and, of course, can give no information. A few days ago one of Bormann's co-workers, a Dr. Hummeln was arrested in Salzburg. I will go to see him and perhaps get now information perhaps not.
THE PRESIDENT: We need not bother about that now, only the application with reference to the documents.
Sir David, have you anything further to say about the documents?