Q April 1932? That was at the age of 23?
Q Before then had you been a member of the HJ? after the question has been completed. the HJ before you assumed your position with pay in the year 1932?
A Yes. When I was 13 years old, in the year 19242, I entered the then National Socialist Youth Organization. When was 18 years old, in the year 1937, in my home province of Tyrol, I accepted the task of an Unterfuehrer.
Q And when did you assume your paid position? from 1929 until 1932, I worked in this honorary capacity. And, in connection with that, I worked for pay as well.
Q Since 1932?
Q Just what was your position in the year 1932? What position did you assume then? then area Westphalia, Lower Rhine. Schirach?
Q And what was your position then?
Q For what length of time did you remain a staff leader?
Q Until the time he left his office as Reich Youth Leader?
served with the Army?
Then you had not been an officer? a staff leader of the Reich Youth leadership, Reichsjugendfuehrung. What tasks did the staff leader of the Reich Youth leadership have? Please tell us briefly, so we may have a rough idea, at least, of what your jurisdiction was. the leader of the staff of the Reich Youth leadership. At such, I had the task, so far as the general directives of tie Reich Youth Leader were concerned, to work with the orders and decrees given out by the Reich Youth Leader in so far as he could not do that himself. I was in charge of the various departments of the Reich Youth Leadership, and I had to coordinate these departments. Specifically, I dealt with organizational and personnel questions. years 1935 to 1939. I carried throu gh a number of journeys abroad at von Schirach's request. act personally? Youth Leadership? you friends outside of the office? Above and beyond that, we were personal friends. Our personal relationship, because of Schirach's Vienna task, was not interrupted during his sojourn in Vienna.
Q Do you believe, Mr. Lauterbacher--disregarding this personal relationship that you had with von Schirach--that he concealed certain things from you; or, are you of the conviction that so far as official matters were concerned he had no secrets from you? von Schirach made all his intentions and thoughts known to me. He had no secrets from me.
Q He kept nothing from you?
or discussions with Hitler. Always I was informed by him right after the discussions had taken place.
Q Witness, in the year 1939, the second world war broke out. Did the defendant, von Schirach, in the last few years prior to the outbreak of the world war carry on any conversations with you to the effect that the youth should be prepared for war and should be trained and educated that way. That, in other words, in the education of youth, one would have to consider the necessity and requirements of a corning war? What transpired on this point between you and von Schirach? What transpired between you before the war, that is? about that. On occasions in the company of von Schirach I attended meetings or rallies of the party, and on those occasions when Adolf Hitler delivered a speech, I only -
THE PRESIDENT: Please ask the witness not to go quite so slowly.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, please speak slowly but not too slow. Please speak slow enough that the interpreter can follow you. We are losing too much time. We have already lost a good deal of time. Please continue. impression that Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Reich bel eved in peace and a peaceful development and they wanted to maintain that. Therefore, the thought never occurred to me that youth should be trained especially for war. Reichs Jugend Fuehrer, did you have any knowledge about the entire mail that either came into Schirach's or left Schirach's office? Yes or no,please. you see anything about directives for the Reich Youth Leadership received from the party leadership or from Hitler or from the OKW or from other agencies, either State or party, regarding the preparations for war?
youth education and training, and I do not believe, Mr. President, I need to ponder this in detail. The witness could give us information about the tasks of youth education, but I might consider that as clarified, is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: I think so. I think the facts about it have been sufficiently stated. BY DR. SAUTER: had not been a soldier. Wasn't it important to Schirach that among his collaborators there should be a certain number of officers, at least men who had served their military term who might be used as educators, this education of youth? Please be brief. that Schirach rejected officers for theoretic and other reasons. The objective and the tasks of H.J. was the tasks of a socialist community and of a socialist state, and with that, the type of the old, of the then current officer, he was the representative of a reactionary type and we could not bring about a union of the two. This type could not coincide with the principles for education which Schirach had laid down.
Q Witness, do you know anything about this? That Schirach was always very disinclined or do you know he was inclined to agree when military agencies tried to exert influence on the way the Youth leadership was carried on? On this point you can also br brief, I believe. the Hitler Youth as leaders of the Hitler Youth, which began before my period of activity of the Reich Youth Leadership. So far as I am informed two officers were brought in on the more or less direct order of Hitler. These attempts, however, met with no success and their activity was a hundred percent failure.
Q What happened to them? these two gentlemen, and he effected this. He brought it about. A directive was given out by Hitler which said that from now on officers were not to be active in the Hitler Youth.
force officers upon the Hitler Youth, so to speak? were made, especially as far as officers were concerned to influence the training and education in the Hitler Youth, but these attempts also failed, and up until the very end those Hitler Youth Leaders who had been in the military and who had been officers, they were not taken in, and up until the very end in the Hitler Youth officers who would have been responsible to another department, rather than von Schirach's department, they were not active in the Hitler Youth. please confirm me in this, whether I am understanding you correctly, that as far as those attempts were concerned, Schirach turned them down, is that correct?
for the girls? term for the clothing worn by the members of the Hitler Youth. It was rather a costume, tracht, which they had worn even before the existence of Hitler Youth, which they were not only in Germany but in other countries and organizations in all countries, they were those costumes. At any rate Schirach was interested that all boys and girls and he said they should wear the clothing and dress of the socialist community.
Q And socialist community, what does that mean? without any difference as to the background or creed or anything else.
Q Did the H.J. have military weapons in its possession and where the Hitler Youth trained in military weapons?
A No. Von Schirach did not have such activity in the Hitler Youth and it was not trained in military weapons. connection with the question of the special units, the training of the youth in the so-called motorized Hitler Youth, we have had reference made to this. Tell us about the tanks or anything like that. has not over had any activities for any training in armored cars, tanks or anything else like that.
THE PRESIDENT: The facts stated by the defendant as to the weapons of the Hitler Youth and their formations were not cross-examined. You needn't go into that. Mr. Dodd didn't suggest that they had got training with tanks.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I can pass on to another point.
Q Now, I should like to turn, Mr. Lauterbacher, to the attitude of the Defendant von Schirach on the Jewish question. Was the HJ -- the Hitler Jugend --active in the Jewish programs of November 1938?
A I believe that I can answer your question with a very clear "No".
Q Mr. Lauterbacher, you said something to me about a speech which was given a few days after the 9th of November 1938, the speech delivered by the Defendant von Schirach regarding Jewish programs. Tell me when and before whom he delivered this speech and what he said in this speech.
A Von Schirach on the 10th of November 1938, was in Munich. I was in Berlin at the time, von Schirach instructed my by telephone to tell the Youth Leadership that their organizations were to be kept at all costs out of tha anti-Jewish demonstrations, and as far as specific explanation on this point was concerned, to call a meeting of all of those leaders for a certain day. This meeting took place around the 15th of November 1948. That was the approximate date; it was in Berlin. he expressed the fact that he had had some reports of his own in the meantime and stated that Hitler Youth had not participated in those excesses. Then in his speech he mentioned these excesses. I remember this speech, for it was particularly impressive. He called these programs a cultural defilement and an attack on our dignity. He said that such things Could take place among an uncivilized people but it should not happen in the case of the German people. And he further stated that through those demonstrations we had antagonized the world and all decent people in Germany itself. He was Very much afraid -- he was seriously afraid -- that domestic political difficulties would result, as well as difficulties within the Party. As we know, the Party was not at all unified on the subject of those happenings, A large section of the Party membership and of the Party leadership was very much against -- and disapproved of-these excesses.
Q Please continue telling us what Schirach set forth at that time. I am really interested in that. future at all costs and in any circumstances they must stay away and apart from demonstrations of this sort, to have nothing to do with than, and especially for pedagogical reasons he disapproved of all force and violence.
Then at the conclusion of the speech he mentioned Der Sturmer as a newspaper which might have been used but he prohibited the reading of this paper among his youth.
Q On this occasion, Mr. Lauterbacher, did he say anything to the effect that so much cultural values, art treasures, property and so forth had been destroyed in vain And didn't he in this connection cite certain examples?
A Yes. In this connection he cited as an especially drastic example the case of the attempted or partly successful plundering of the Jewish firm, Bernheimer, in Munich.
Q Munich?
A Yes. And in citing this example he told the youth Leadership how dangerous this interference had been with special reference to art treasures and as forth.
Q Isn't it true the Defendant von Schirach in connection with this Berlin speech about which you have just told us through your intervention via Berlin had the various offices called on the phone and directives went out?
A Yes; this took place on the 10th of November, that is the day after the Munich Rally. That took place on the 10th of November, but it was independent of the meeting of the Gebietsfuehrers, which took place on the 15th.
Q Mr. Lauterbacher, I assume that in the course of the years on the occasion of Certain speeches which the Defendant von Schirach made to his subordinate leaders, or speeches he made to the Hitler Youth, you attendee these meetings, or at least some of them, and that you listened to these speeches some of them personally. On other occasions like that did the Defendant von Schirach engage in Jewish-baiting? Did he suggest violence be used against the Jews? What was that? Schirach before the Leadership of the HJ and listened to him. And on the occasion of these speeches I never heard the suggestion that force or violence be used, which by its very nature would be uncalled for. At any rate, I cannot recall that von Schirach ever demanded that the Youth Leadership either subscribe to or participate in acts of violence of any kind toward anyone.
Q What was the topic of Schirach's speeches mostly that is, when he delivered one of his many speeches addressed to the youth? Please be brief; give me the main topic. formative speeches and the speeches which he made before the Leadership of the Hitler Youth. the large political and ideological tasks, with the socio-political culturalpolitical and professional training problems which he had put to the Hitler Youth -- those were the topics he dealt with.
Q Now, we shall turn to a different topic, Br Lauterbacher. Did Schirach cause you to leave the Church? as he responsible for that?
Q Did you leave the Church?
A I do not believe that Mr. von Schirach even knew what religious affiliation I had or whether I left the Church which happened in 1937 or 1938 and without being influenced or forced to it by anyone whatsoever. to leave the Church, that is, as far as you know? just told us you attended, listened to them, did he speak against Christianity?
Did he try to incite against Christianity? ions of people and on thos occasions not only once but frequently characterized atheism, or being without God, as undesirable. In his speech von Schirach even before 1933 and thereafter--just to give the example of the sports society -- had some discussion in some of his speeches about this. He demanded the unity of youth, but on these occasions neither openly nor in any otherway did he attack Christianity or the religious convictions of other people.
Q Mr. Lauterbacher, during the true the Defendant von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader, were there negotiations regarding the conclusion of a Concordat with the Roman Catholic Church, so that relations between the State and the Church would be put on the basis of a contract? Do you know anything about this, that von Schirach participated in these Concordat standing with the Church and to bring about this understanding in such a way as to satisfy both sides?
A Yes. In the years 1933 and 1934 there were many conversations which Schirach had with the representatives of the Church.
Q Who were they? the representative from the Fulda Conference of Bishops, Berning of Osnabrueck. He had conversations with these gentlemen. And I recall that Schirach was interested in bringing about a limitation of the powers and jurisdiction of both sides, perhaps on a basis of giving to God what is God's and to giving to the State what belongs to the State.
Q Now, I have another question, Witness: Do you know whether von Schirach actually tried to bring about an understanding with the Hitler Yout and the Youth of other countries, whether he wanted to bring about this understanding? And can you cite examples of his activities in this direction? Tell us what he actually did. the rest of the world was without doubt one of those tasks which Schirach again and again was interested in having the Youth Leaders pursue. I always had the impression that this task was I might almost say his most personal passion.
I myself at his order -- and perhaps I might be a cardinal witness to this fact -- from 1935 onwards, twice or perhaps three times, I visited the various European countries so that I could get in touch with the existing youth organizations and also the organizations of combat soldiers of the First "World bar, to bring about contact with them.
Q Which States, for instance, did you visit?
frequent order of von Schirach visited England several times. There I
THE PRESIDENT:I don't think those facts are in dispute. It is merely the inference that is to be drawn from the facts that the Prosecution will rely upon. Therefore it is not necessary for you to go into the facts again, as to the connection of the Hitler Youth with the foreign youth.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr President. So we can turn to another topic; You were the Staff Leader of the Reich Youth Leadership. Do you know whether the leadership of the Hitler Jugend had spies abroad or agents abroad, or whether they trained people for Fifth Column activities in other countries -- and you know what a Fifth Column is,I take it:hat is the training of people in Germany so that they could act as parachutists back in their own co untries. During your entire activities as Staff Leader did you have any knowledge of anything like that at all? and Hitler Youth did not train any people like that in any country of Europe. Such a fact would have to be known to me under all circumstances and I knew nothing about it.
instigated anything like that, do you believe that through the channel of the reports from the Gebietsfuehrers, you would have had knowledge of it? have had word of this in the localities. The other day you told no about a conversation which took place at the end of September or the beginning of October--that is after the polish campaign and before the actual French war--a conversation which you had with the defendant von Schirach in your living quarters at Berlin, Dahlem, on which occasion the defendant von Schirach commented on his attitude toward the war. Will you describe this conversation to us briefly?
A Yes. Von Schirach visited no toward the end of September or the early part of October 1909. He visited me in my living quarters in Berlin, which I occupied at the time. Very quickly the conversation turned to war, and Schirach said that, in his opinion, this war should have been prevented. He hold the then Foreign Minister responsible for having advised Hitler inadequately or incorrectly. He regretted the fact that Hitler and the leading men of the state and of the party did not know Europe, did not know the world, and, without fully knowing the consequences, they had steered Germany into this war. ended within the briefest possible time, we would lose the war. In this connection he referred to the extraordinary war potential of the United States and England. He said--and I can remember this word very well--that this war was an unholy one and that if the German people were not to be plunged into misery, the Fuehrer would have to be advised and informed of the danger which would arise for Germany if America, either through deliveries of goods or through war itself, were to intervene. could have access to Hitler. Schirach at that time suggested try ing in some way to bring Colin Ross to Adolf Hitler.
Colin Ross was to call Hitler's attention to the imminent danger, and, without the presence of the Foreign Minister and without the Foreign Minister knowing anything about it, Hitler was to be informed by Colin Ross.
Colin Ross was not in Germany at that time. I recall that when he returned he was, through Schirach, brought in contact wit Hitler. discussion which took place at the end of September or the beginning of October 1939, the conversation which you just mentioned to us. I should like to have you answer the question, How was it th Dr. Colin Ross was chosen; how did you arrive at this conclusion having him go to Hitler?
A. I have already mentioned that the leadership of the National Socialist State and of the Party did not know the world and foreign countries at all, and consequently, this man who had travelled much and who had seen the world, would be the suitable one. In the years before 1939 Colin Ross had attended meetings of the Hitler Youth leadership and had addressed them.
Q. What about?
A. He was known to Schirach and the Hitler Youth.
Q. What were the topics he discussed before the Hitler Youth?
A. He discussed his travels abroad.
Q. On this occasion did you also discuss the matter of whether there should be a discussion of the Jewish problem, so that there would be a better understanding with other countries, and if so, just what was to be the basis for this solution? and he referred to his subsequent speech, and he said that in these circumstances, it would be extraordinarily difficult to start discussions with America, first of all, and that one should try, beforehand, and he wanted to suggest this to Hitler.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal does not think it is really sufficiently important to go into Schirach's private discussions with this witness. If he can say anything as to what Schirach did, it may be different, but now the witness is simply reciting the discussions which he had with Schirach, nothing more than private discussions. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, on the basis of these discussions, discussions between you and the defendant von Schirach, did Schirach actually act to keep the peace or did he do anything to shorten the war? If he did do anything, just what did he do?
A. Yes, as he told me later on, Schirach tried to make use of every opportunity at the beginning of the war to tell Hitler about the need of having discussions with America, and he tried to convince Hitler of this. Colin Ross later told me about this.
Schirach brought Colin Ross face to face with Hitler, in pursuance of this conviction. Colin Ross was with Hitler for several hours. Colin Ross, when he visited me at Hanover, told me about this discussion, and he said that Hitler had become very contemplative. He also said that a second discussion which had been planned with Hitler did not materialize, for, according to the picture he gave me, the Foreign Office was opposed to this way of having Hitler receive information and protested.
THE PRESIDENT: We win adjourn now.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thinks that this witness is dealing in great detail with matters which are of very little importance and the Tribunal wishes you to bring his attention to something which is of real importance.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I in any case only have got one more question. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Mr. Witness, one last question. In 1940, you separated from Schirach and I think you became a Gauleiter. particularly about the question why Schirach wasn't resigning. The reason I am putting this question to you is because one member of the prosecution has discussed the question once before already this morning. Will you tell us briefly what Schirach said at the time as the reason why he remained in his office or why he didn't resign and all that and how he judged the war -- in 1943, I think it was? there was a very long conversation between von Schirach and myself. At that time, von Schirach was talking about the prospect of the war in a very sentimental way and he was telling me that shortly we should be fighting outside Vienna along the Rhine and in the Alps. He said on that occasion, that for sometime already he hadn't been able to get to see Adolf Hitler and that he had had no opportunity any longer, as it used to be the custom to inform him, and that the Chief of the Party Chancellory, Bormann, had prevented his getting to see the Fuehrer and having a chat with him alone. The attitude was being consequently pursued and that he had no longer any opportunities to discuss any special or general questions with Hitler. He also mentioned in that connection that Bormann was coning to him with objections and complaints every day regarding cancellation of orders he had given in his capacity of Gauleiter in Vienna, for instance, and that principally speaking, it was no longer possible to remain in office and to continue to bear responsibility.
Later on, during that conversation, during which we talked about all sort of other subjects, he said that he had sworn an oath of allegiance to Hitler, after all, and he thought that he would have to remain in office under any circumstances and that, most of all, he thought that he could not be responsible for leaving in the lurch a population of whom he had been appointed Gauleiter. He said that he was prepared and sought to approach him but that a resignation or action of any kind wouldn't have any influence on the leader of the State and Hitler personally and that, therefore, he would behave like a soldier and remain in his office.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that already brings me to the end of the examination of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defense counsel want to ask him any questions?
DR. SERVATIUS: Defense counsel Servatius for Sauckel. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Witness, from 1940, you were Gauleiter in Hanover? Were there many foreign laborers in your Gau? This was mainly caused through the presence of the Reichswork Herma Georing, that was situated near Braunschweig.
Q Did you have to look after them? were in fact committed to looking after foreign laborers and worker.
Q Did Sauckel give instructions about that? tions from Sauckel regarding labor; that is to say, their welfare and looking after these civilian workers.
Q What was the type of these instructions? almost entirely with the repeated demands to do everything for the foreign workers as far as accommodations, eating, clothing, and their cultural welfare was concerned, and they should be well looke after.
Q. Was that carried out in practice?
A. Naturally, that was carried out within the limitations of the possibilities which existed.
Q Did you inspect work camps where those laborers worked?
A Yes. I, myself, on the occasion of official journeys visited such camps but most of all the actual works themselves. Apart from that, I had my deputy who was engaged in labor front work, and I had a man who would particularly support this part of my task. ditions? Braunschweig were particularly badly hit. I saw conditions in the foreign civilian labor camps and also in the living quarters of German people--well, I wouldn't call them catastrophic but certainly the worst conditions; subsequently, and as for as possibility existed, I tried, for instance, to repair those destroyed accommodations or have now living quarters erected. of these industrial enterprises?
A I do remember two such cases. In Hannover, several firm; had formed, shall we say, a ring of collaboration and they had erected a camp for their foreign civilian workers. Responsibility for that camp was in the hands of the trustees from these firms. one day, it was reported to me that living conditions did not comply with the instructions which existed and he asked my permission to interfere; that is to say, that from the German laborers front, he should be allowed to assume responsibility for that particular workers camp. I did give him the corresponding instructions and sometimes afterwards, he reported to me that these difficulties had been removed. Another example, the Reichsworks Herman Goering---Since I am speaking under oath here, I must mention that that firm, and in several respects, disregarded Sauckel's instructions.
For once, they were outside the jurisdiction of labor administration and then the jurisdiction over branch business in the Ukraine--and by that means, laborers were recruited. These laborers arrived outside the contingents supplied by the Plenipotentiary for Labor in Germany and, therefore, they did not come under his responsibility when they arrived on the site of the Reichswork--only after overcoming considerable difficulties, did I succeed in entering the works and the camp. It wasn't by any means of the case that I as Gauleiter and Plenipotentiary could without ---
THE PRESIDENT: What has that to do with the defendant Sauckel?
DR. SERVATIUS: I had asked him regarding deficiencies which he might have seen when he was Plenipotentiary for the use of foreign workers, controlled, which he had to do, whether such deficiencies existed. Those he had to report, so that finally they would go to Sauckel. He has gone rather far afield in his story and he is now speaking about the Hermann Goering Works.
THE PRESIDENT: You should stop him, Dr. Servatius. You know the question you were asking.