It is remarkable that in this later statement, this woman testifies to something entirely different from what she set forth in her previous statement and something entirely different from which she is to testify according to the interrogatory and I am of the opinion --
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, what previous statement do you mean?
DR. SAUTER: Of the statement in the Commission Report, the statement given by the Commission in the City of Lemberg. This Commission Report was read and it says that the Hitler Youth carried out these activities with the children and my questionnaire, which you allowed me, deals with this point.
THE PRESIDENT: General, were the interrogatories submitted by Dr. Sauter shown to the witness Vasseaux?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: No, it was not even sent here. This interrogatory was not sent to the witness. May I come back to the history of this interrogation? The Soviet Prosecution submitted a review of a document, a report of the Extraordinary state Commission, Lwow (?) of the German atrocities of the Lwow district. In this document there was a statement of witness Vasseaux -- she was not interrogated then -- in which she stated that she witnessed how the Hitler Youth used as targets small children and the statement ended there. This document was accepted after that on our own initiative. Dr. Sauter's interrogatory did not come to us and we did not send it out. Ida Vasseaux was identified. We found out where she was and in addition to that which she said to the State Commission, she was interrogated in Lwow and the excerpts from her interrogation on the 16th of May are now being submitted to the Tribunal. She dwelt on certain details.
THE PRESIDENT: We all understand that, General, but the question is: Why, if interrogatories had been allowed by the Tribunal and had been seen by the prosecution and were dated sometime in April, why was the witness interrogated in May without having seen these interrogatories? This document is dated the 16th.
of May 1946, isn't it, Dr. Sauter?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter tells us that interrogatories allowed by the Tribunal were dated in April.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I do not know to whom Dr. Sauter addressed his interrogatory. I repeat that we did not receive this interrogatory and could not send it on, for we did not have any data on Ida Vasseaux's residence. When we did find out where she lived, we carried out an interrogation and that happened on the 16th of May.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
(Hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 27 May 1946)
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, the Tribunal will not admit --. Can you hear?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will not admit this document at the present time, but it would wish that you should present the original document and at the same time the answers to the interrogatories which the Tribunal has ordered; and the Tribunal will call upon the General Secretary for a report upon the whole matter.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Mr. President -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I had a chance to talk this over with Dr. Sauter, and he said that we can --.
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid it is not coming through to the interpreter. Will you say what you said again?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Very well. I repeat that during the recess I had a chance to talk to Dr. Sauter, who gave me the interrogatory and stated that measures will be taken to get the concrete replies from the witness; also the request of the Tribunal to get the original of the document will be complied with as soon as possible.
May I continue pew with my interrogation?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q I stopped at the testimony of Gert Brunno Knittel. Here is what he relates about his service in the German Army:
"Not less than twice a week we were sent to comb the forest to catch guerillas and to look for discontent against the German regime, so that these people could be arrested and shot immediately. Our third regime had caught and shot five peasants, in the woods. Most possibly these persons were not even partisans or guerillas, but merely citizens who went into the woods for personal pleasure. But we had an order to whomever we met in the woods, and this is precisely what we did.
"One day in June, 1943, in the village of Lischaysk we surrounded the whole village and the woods around that village so that no one could leave or enter the village.
Outside each house in the village -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) You are cross examining the defendant von Schirach who was in Vienna. What has this document got to do with him?
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: This is the testiomny of one of the members of the Hitler Jugend regarding his participation while in service in the German Army in the occupied territory. This is the document accepted by the German defense. I do not have to read it here, but I would like Witness von Schirach to look at the document and to become acquainted with it. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q Have you got that document, witness? I am asking this of you now, Mr. Witness, Have you read that Document?
A Yes, I have read the document. This man Keitel who is testifying here was not a member of the Hitler Youth, but either of the Labor Service or a member of a unit of the armed forces. At a prior period of time in his life, just like all the other young Germans, he had been a member of the Hitler Youth. He states that here. He acted as a member of one of the armed forces, not as a member of the Hitler Youth. The entire testimony seems to be of little credibility. Among other things he mentions -
Q (Interposing) Have you read all of the testimony that is given there ? Do you admit thatmembers of the Hitler Jugend had taken part in such crimes, and that the reason for it is that the Hitler Jugend prepared them for such action and trained them to behave accordingly?
Q I have two more questions, and that will be all. Up to what time did you hold the post of being in charge of the Hitler Youth?
A. I was the head of this office since 1931 and I was Reich Governor of the City of Vienna since 1940.
Q. Up to what precise date of moment?
A. I held both of these offices until the collapse.
Q. You were telling here in detail about your quarrel with Hitler in 1943. You stated that from that time on you started being a political leader. Your quarrel or your parting of the ways with Hitler was not really a concrete quarrel, it wasn't a concrete parting of the ways; it was merely theoretical and it didn't have any serious consequences on your career?
A. That is wrong. The consequences which it had for me were set forth by me either Thursday or Friday, and I also mentioned at that time that up until the vary last moment I kept my oath which I had given to Hitler as an official and as an officer, the oath on becoming the youth leader.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I have no more questions, Mr. President.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in order to get along with the proceedings, I should like to put two brief questions to Defendant von Schirach. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. The first question, Witness, in the course of the cross examination you were asked whether you had given an order to keep Vienna until the very last moment and defend the city up to the last man. As far as I remember, you answered that question in the negative, no. I am interested in knowing now what orders did you give so your subordinates during the last days of Vienna, decrees and orders which went to the deputy Gauleiter Scharizer and Blaschke. What were some of the orders they received from you?
A. The order regarding the defense of Vienna originated from Hitler. The defense of Vienna was a matter for the military; that is the Commandant of the City of Vienna was concerned here with the head of the army group who was commanding the SC Panzer Division, Sepp-Dietrich, and the leader of the Army group south.
Q. Did they give orders?
A. In carrying out the decree which Hitler had given them regarding the defense of Vienna, they defended Vienna.
Q. What orders did you, Witness, give your subordinates in this connection?
A. For the defense of Vienna I gave only such orders as related to the Volkssturm; that is dealing with the food supply to the city and similar matters with which I was charged. I personally had no concern in the defense of the City, and the works of destruction which were necessary in the course of the military defense of the City, these works of destruction are to be traced back to orders which originated with the Fuehrer's headquarters and had been transmitted to the leader of the Army group and to the City Commandant.
Q. My second question, Witness, in your cross examination you were questioned about Document 3763-PS. This is a document which concerns itself with the songs of youth and out of which songs the prosecution seems to derive a different attitude from that explained by you. Do you wish to supplement your testimony on this point?
A. Yes, I should like to add a few things.
Q. Please go ahead.
A. The prosecution accuses me with a certain song, a song which begins "We are the black swarms of Geyer, hey, ho! and want to fight tyrants, hey, ho. Spear in front at them, out the red cock on to the cloister roof", and in one of the verses: "We will lament ot Him on high, Kyrieleis, that we want to kill the priest, Kyrieleis", and this song is a Christian song.
Q. How so?
A. This can be seen in the fourth paragraph. This song is of Protestant origin under Florian Geier and the fourth paragraph reads: "Now castle, abbot and monastry are of importance, hey, ho! Nothing but the Holy Scriptures are of importance to us, hey, ho! Protestantism as well was a revolutionary creed and the peasants who revolted sang this song, and it made me an example in point to quote this song, from the 16th Century just like some of the songs originated in the French revolution. This song may be used as an example to show how revolutions are radical rather than tolerant.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with this point I should like to conclude my direct examination of the Defendant von Schirach. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Who were your principal assistants in your office at Vienna?
A. First of all, the chief of my central office, Hoepken; secondly, the Regierungs President, Dr. Dellbruegge; thirdly, the Mayor, Blaschke; and fourthly, the Deputy Gauleiter Scharizer. Thses were the vitally essential collaborators.
Q. That makes four, does it?
A. Yes.
Q. And did they occupy the whole of their time working for you in your office?
A. Not all of them. The Deputy Cauleiter had already been in this function under my official predecessor, Buercker. The Mayor, Mr. Blaschke, as far as I recall, became Mayor in 1943. His predecessor was a Mr. Jung, his predecessor as Mayor. The Regierungs President Dr. Dellbruegge assumed his office in 1940; that is, after my arrival in Vienna. He was sent to me from the Reich.
Q. Well then, at the time that you took over the office in Vienna these four men were working for you, is that right?
A. Yes. I should like to mention also that the head of the central office, Hoepken, was first of all active under me as adjutant and assumed his position as Chief only when the former chief of this office, Obergebletsfuehrer Mueller, lost his life in an air attack.
Q. Which of the four was it who initialed those weekly reports which were received in your office?
A. That was the Regierungs President, Dr. Dellbruegge.
Q. And at the time that he received them he was working in your office as one of your principal assistants?
A. He was; the department in the State Administration.
Q. That was your office?
A. That was one of my offices or departments.
Q. One department in your office?
A. Yes. May I add, by way of explanation, there were various pillars, so to speak: The State administration, the Municipal Administration, The Party and the Reich Defense Commissariat. The Reich Defense Commissariat and the State Administration were connected so far as personnel were concerned, as far as their representation was concerned. Everything was brought together and centralized in the central office.
documents? Which department was he head of?
Q Civil administration?
Q was he the Deputy Reich Defense Commissioner? ber 17, were you not?
Q And he was your deputy in that military district?
Q He received and initialed those reports in that office, did he not?
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant may return to the dock.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with your permission I should like to call to the witness box the witness Lauterbacher.
HARTMANN LAUTERBACHER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Is that your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Mr. Lauterbacher.
A Yes?
Q I have already discussed this matter with you in the prison; is that right? that the interpreters may keep up.
Q When were you born?
A 1909?
Q Are you married?
Q You have three children?
Q What is your profession?
Q You are in an American prison?
A I didn't quite understand. Oh--English.
Q Since when?
Q Have you been interrogated by the prosecution on this matter?
Q When did you become a paid employee of the Hitler Youth? of the lower Rhine.
Q And when was that?
Q April 1932? That was at the age of 23?
Q Before then had you been a member of the HJ? after the question has been completed. the HJ before you assumed your position with pay in the year 1932?
A Yes. When I was 13 years old, in the year 19242, I entered the then National Socialist Youth Organization. When was 18 years old, in the year 1937, in my home province of Tyrol, I accepted the task of an Unterfuehrer.
Q And when did you assume your paid position? from 1929 until 1932, I worked in this honorary capacity. And, in connection with that, I worked for pay as well.
Q Since 1932?
Q Just what was your position in the year 1932? What position did you assume then? then area Westphalia, Lower Rhine. Schirach?
Q And what was your position then?
Q For what length of time did you remain a staff leader?
Q Until the time he left his office as Reich Youth Leader?
served with the Army?
Then you had not been an officer? a staff leader of the Reich Youth leadership, Reichsjugendfuehrung. What tasks did the staff leader of the Reich Youth leadership have? Please tell us briefly, so we may have a rough idea, at least, of what your jurisdiction was. the leader of the staff of the Reich Youth leadership. At such, I had the task, so far as the general directives of tie Reich Youth Leader were concerned, to work with the orders and decrees given out by the Reich Youth Leader in so far as he could not do that himself. I was in charge of the various departments of the Reich Youth Leadership, and I had to coordinate these departments. Specifically, I dealt with organizational and personnel questions. years 1935 to 1939. I carried throu gh a number of journeys abroad at von Schirach's request. act personally? Youth Leadership? you friends outside of the office? Above and beyond that, we were personal friends. Our personal relationship, because of Schirach's Vienna task, was not interrupted during his sojourn in Vienna.
Q Do you believe, Mr. Lauterbacher--disregarding this personal relationship that you had with von Schirach--that he concealed certain things from you; or, are you of the conviction that so far as official matters were concerned he had no secrets from you? von Schirach made all his intentions and thoughts known to me. He had no secrets from me.
Q He kept nothing from you?
or discussions with Hitler. Always I was informed by him right after the discussions had taken place.
Q Witness, in the year 1939, the second world war broke out. Did the defendant, von Schirach, in the last few years prior to the outbreak of the world war carry on any conversations with you to the effect that the youth should be prepared for war and should be trained and educated that way. That, in other words, in the education of youth, one would have to consider the necessity and requirements of a corning war? What transpired on this point between you and von Schirach? What transpired between you before the war, that is? about that. On occasions in the company of von Schirach I attended meetings or rallies of the party, and on those occasions when Adolf Hitler delivered a speech, I only -
THE PRESIDENT: Please ask the witness not to go quite so slowly.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, please speak slowly but not too slow. Please speak slow enough that the interpreter can follow you. We are losing too much time. We have already lost a good deal of time. Please continue. impression that Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Reich bel eved in peace and a peaceful development and they wanted to maintain that. Therefore, the thought never occurred to me that youth should be trained especially for war. Reichs Jugend Fuehrer, did you have any knowledge about the entire mail that either came into Schirach's or left Schirach's office? Yes or no,please. you see anything about directives for the Reich Youth Leadership received from the party leadership or from Hitler or from the OKW or from other agencies, either State or party, regarding the preparations for war?
youth education and training, and I do not believe, Mr. President, I need to ponder this in detail. The witness could give us information about the tasks of youth education, but I might consider that as clarified, is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: I think so. I think the facts about it have been sufficiently stated. BY DR. SAUTER: had not been a soldier. Wasn't it important to Schirach that among his collaborators there should be a certain number of officers, at least men who had served their military term who might be used as educators, this education of youth? Please be brief. that Schirach rejected officers for theoretic and other reasons. The objective and the tasks of H.J. was the tasks of a socialist community and of a socialist state, and with that, the type of the old, of the then current officer, he was the representative of a reactionary type and we could not bring about a union of the two. This type could not coincide with the principles for education which Schirach had laid down.
Q Witness, do you know anything about this? That Schirach was always very disinclined or do you know he was inclined to agree when military agencies tried to exert influence on the way the Youth leadership was carried on? On this point you can also br brief, I believe. the Hitler Youth as leaders of the Hitler Youth, which began before my period of activity of the Reich Youth Leadership. So far as I am informed two officers were brought in on the more or less direct order of Hitler. These attempts, however, met with no success and their activity was a hundred percent failure.
Q What happened to them? these two gentlemen, and he effected this. He brought it about. A directive was given out by Hitler which said that from now on officers were not to be active in the Hitler Youth.
force officers upon the Hitler Youth, so to speak? were made, especially as far as officers were concerned to influence the training and education in the Hitler Youth, but these attempts also failed, and up until the very end those Hitler Youth Leaders who had been in the military and who had been officers, they were not taken in, and up until the very end in the Hitler Youth officers who would have been responsible to another department, rather than von Schirach's department, they were not active in the Hitler Youth. please confirm me in this, whether I am understanding you correctly, that as far as those attempts were concerned, Schirach turned them down, is that correct?
for the girls? term for the clothing worn by the members of the Hitler Youth. It was rather a costume, tracht, which they had worn even before the existence of Hitler Youth, which they were not only in Germany but in other countries and organizations in all countries, they were those costumes. At any rate Schirach was interested that all boys and girls and he said they should wear the clothing and dress of the socialist community.
Q And socialist community, what does that mean? without any difference as to the background or creed or anything else.
Q Did the H.J. have military weapons in its possession and where the Hitler Youth trained in military weapons?
A No. Von Schirach did not have such activity in the Hitler Youth and it was not trained in military weapons. connection with the question of the special units, the training of the youth in the so-called motorized Hitler Youth, we have had reference made to this. Tell us about the tanks or anything like that. has not over had any activities for any training in armored cars, tanks or anything else like that.
THE PRESIDENT: The facts stated by the defendant as to the weapons of the Hitler Youth and their formations were not cross-examined. You needn't go into that. Mr. Dodd didn't suggest that they had got training with tanks.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I can pass on to another point.
Q Now, I should like to turn, Mr. Lauterbacher, to the attitude of the Defendant von Schirach on the Jewish question. Was the HJ -- the Hitler Jugend --active in the Jewish programs of November 1938?
A I believe that I can answer your question with a very clear "No".
Q Mr. Lauterbacher, you said something to me about a speech which was given a few days after the 9th of November 1938, the speech delivered by the Defendant von Schirach regarding Jewish programs. Tell me when and before whom he delivered this speech and what he said in this speech.
A Von Schirach on the 10th of November 1938, was in Munich. I was in Berlin at the time, von Schirach instructed my by telephone to tell the Youth Leadership that their organizations were to be kept at all costs out of tha anti-Jewish demonstrations, and as far as specific explanation on this point was concerned, to call a meeting of all of those leaders for a certain day. This meeting took place around the 15th of November 1948. That was the approximate date; it was in Berlin. he expressed the fact that he had had some reports of his own in the meantime and stated that Hitler Youth had not participated in those excesses. Then in his speech he mentioned these excesses. I remember this speech, for it was particularly impressive. He called these programs a cultural defilement and an attack on our dignity. He said that such things Could take place among an uncivilized people but it should not happen in the case of the German people. And he further stated that through those demonstrations we had antagonized the world and all decent people in Germany itself. He was Very much afraid -- he was seriously afraid -- that domestic political difficulties would result, as well as difficulties within the Party. As we know, the Party was not at all unified on the subject of those happenings, A large section of the Party membership and of the Party leadership was very much against -- and disapproved of-these excesses.
Q Please continue telling us what Schirach set forth at that time. I am really interested in that. future at all costs and in any circumstances they must stay away and apart from demonstrations of this sort, to have nothing to do with than, and especially for pedagogical reasons he disapproved of all force and violence.
Then at the conclusion of the speech he mentioned Der Sturmer as a newspaper which might have been used but he prohibited the reading of this paper among his youth.
Q On this occasion, Mr. Lauterbacher, did he say anything to the effect that so much cultural values, art treasures, property and so forth had been destroyed in vain And didn't he in this connection cite certain examples?
A Yes. In this connection he cited as an especially drastic example the case of the attempted or partly successful plundering of the Jewish firm, Bernheimer, in Munich.
Q Munich?
A Yes. And in citing this example he told the youth Leadership how dangerous this interference had been with special reference to art treasures and as forth.
Q Isn't it true the Defendant von Schirach in connection with this Berlin speech about which you have just told us through your intervention via Berlin had the various offices called on the phone and directives went out?
A Yes; this took place on the 10th of November, that is the day after the Munich Rally. That took place on the 10th of November, but it was independent of the meeting of the Gebietsfuehrers, which took place on the 15th.
Q Mr. Lauterbacher, I assume that in the course of the years on the occasion of Certain speeches which the Defendant von Schirach made to his subordinate leaders, or speeches he made to the Hitler Youth, you attendee these meetings, or at least some of them, and that you listened to these speeches some of them personally. On other occasions like that did the Defendant von Schirach engage in Jewish-baiting? Did he suggest violence be used against the Jews? What was that? Schirach before the Leadership of the HJ and listened to him. And on the occasion of these speeches I never heard the suggestion that force or violence be used, which by its very nature would be uncalled for. At any rate, I cannot recall that von Schirach ever demanded that the Youth Leadership either subscribe to or participate in acts of violence of any kind toward anyone.
Q What was the topic of Schirach's speeches mostly that is, when he delivered one of his many speeches addressed to the youth? Please be brief; give me the main topic. formative speeches and the speeches which he made before the Leadership of the Hitler Youth. the large political and ideological tasks, with the socio-political culturalpolitical and professional training problems which he had put to the Hitler Youth -- those were the topics he dealt with.
Q Now, we shall turn to a different topic, Br Lauterbacher. Did Schirach cause you to leave the Church? as he responsible for that?
Q Did you leave the Church?
A I do not believe that Mr. von Schirach even knew what religious affiliation I had or whether I left the Church which happened in 1937 or 1938 and without being influenced or forced to it by anyone whatsoever. to leave the Church, that is, as far as you know? just told us you attended, listened to them, did he speak against Christianity?