In the year 1938 the Motor Hitler Jugend -- that is that special unit of our youth organization which the prosecution assumes that it received the pre-training for armored weapons -- in 1938 the Motorized Hitler Youth had vehicles of their own, 3,270-
Q. That is all over Germany?
A. Yes, all over Germany. Private vehicles of their members which, of course, were at their disposal for their work, 3,270; and vehicles of the NSKK, National Socialist Motor Corps, 2,000. In the year 1938 twenty-one thousand youth got their driving licenses I believe, but I can not bessure about that. That is twice the number of younsters that received a driving license in 1937; that is a driving license for a passenger car. These figures alone show that the Motorized Hitler Youth did not receive pre-training for our armored forces. The Motorized Hitler Youth had motorcycles; they made cross-country trips, that is correct. What they learned out of it was, of course, valuable also for the Army if these boys later came into motorized units; but it was not so that the boy had to be in the Motorized Hitler Youth, when he came to the Army. There was no compulsion in that respect. The Motorized Hitler Youth was not created upon the request of the armed forces but it was created in the fighting years long before the seizure of power simply from the natural desire of those boys who owned a motorcycle and wanted to drive it also while they were on duty. So we formed our motorized H.J. and we used these boys as messengers between out tent camps and we used them as drivers for our leaders, monor leaders, and later, in order to give them the regular training, especially knowledge of motors, of engines, we made an arrangement with the NSKK which made it possible to train them in the technical fields; and other units were created in the same way. The flying H.J. has never had any motor planes. We only had gliders. The entire Hitler Youth had one plane, one motor plane and that was my own. Aside from that, the Hitler Youth had only model airplanes and gliders. The Hitler Youth did not only teach their own members in the use of gliding, for instance, in the Rhoen Mountains, but also thousands of youth from England and other countries. We had glider camps where young English men were our guests and we also had camps in England.
Q The Navy H.J., did they have warships?
A The Navy H.J. of course had not a single warship but, from time to time our former Commander in Chief of the Navy, Raeder, gave us an old cutter and with that we put to sea. The boys, for instance, who lived in a city like Berlin, near the Wansee, and wanted to do rowing, they became members of the Navy H.J. They didn't go to the Navy just because they had been in the Navy H.J., but just as many of them went after wards to the Army or the Air Force, and the same thing happened with other special units. Youth was not educated in a military way for the war?
A I should like to be quite precise about that. The training in these special units was carried out in such a manner that it really had pre-military value. That is to say that whatever the boy learned in the Marine Hitler Jugend, regardless of whether he wanted to use it as a sport later or whether he went to the Navy later, the basic principles were valuable as pre-military education. If one considers these special units of the H.J., one can say that here a pre-military education actually took place, but the youth within the Hitler Youth organization were never prepared for the war in any place, not even for the military service, because the youngsters did not go directly from the Hitler Youth into the Army. From the Hitler Youth they went into the labor service.
Q And how long were they in the labor service?
Q Then they came to the armed forces? of an agreement which was made between the H.J. leadership and the OKW in August, 1939, and which has been submitted as Document SP 2398 by the prosecution. What are the facts about that agreement between you and the OKW?
A I could not remember any details. Between Field Marshall Keitel and myself, according to my recollection, there wasn't even a discussion concerning that agreement.
I believe we carried that out in writing and, on the whole, I should like to state that during that entire time from 1933 to '45, between Field Marshal Keitl and myself, only one or two conversations of about half an hour took place.
The agreement, however, came from the following considerations: In the Hitler Youth we had the tendency -- and that was also the tendency of competent men in the armed forces -- to take nothing into our training which belonged to the later military training. However, in the course of years, on the part of the military, the objection had been raised that youth should not learn anything within its training which later would have to be changed in the armed forces. I refer, for instance, to the compass. The Army uses the Infantry Compass. The Hitler Youth, in cross-country shorts, used compasses ofvarious kinds; and it was of course quite senseless that youth leaders should train their boys, for instance, to march after the Besar compass and later, in their training as recruits, the boy had to learn something different. The designation of the terrain should also be given according to the same principles and standards within the Hitler Youth as the Army, and so we came to the agreement by which I believe thirty or forty thousand H.J. Leaders were trained in cross-country sports. In these cross-country sports no training with war weapons took place.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, now I come to a different chapter, and it may be that this is the best time to adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now adjourn.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours).
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 23 May 1946) BY DR. SAUTER: of the military and pre-military education of youth. And now I come to another similar chapter; that is the question whether you as youth leader in your articles and speeches and orders did in any way direct youth towards an aggressive war psychologically and attempted to influence youth in such a way so as to prepare youth in that manner for a war situation or atmosphere. thing which I issued to youth in the way of orders and directives prepare German youth for war; nor have I ever, even in the smallest circles of my assistants, expressed myself in that manner. All my speeches are contained in the collection "Das Archiv" (The Archive), at least in their principal contents; and a considerable part of my speeches is contained in a book "The Revolution in Education", in which they are summarized, which is before this Tribunal. in that sense, and this would have,been a direct contradiction to all my aims, which were that we should cooperate with the youth of ether nations.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, perhaps in this connection I may draw your attention to the document, which is in the document book Schirach under No. 125--I repeat 125, -- and also 126, where Schirach is speaking about the questions of preserving peace and refuses to recognize war. I am asking the Tribunal to take judicial notice of these documents and the evidence they contain. Youth Leadership Office and the German Hitler youth with the youth of other nations. Will you give us a more detailed statement on that, in particular with regard to the question with which youth unions or forces of other nation you have cooperated and have attempted an approach and in which way you have done so and to what degree?
by year, I have made efforts to run exchange camps with the youth in other countries. Here in Germany there have on numerous occasions been groups of French youth, English youth, and Belgian youth, as well as many other countries, particularly Italy, as our guests. I remember that in one year alone, I think in 1936, approximately 200,000 foreign youth spent the night in our youth hostels. that the youth hostel system which I took over in 1933 was extended by me and that finally it formed a part of an international youth hostel system, the president of which was sometimes a German, sometimes an Englishman. There was an international youth hostel agreement which made it possible that youngsters of our nation could stay in youth hostels of the guest nations. I, myself, have made particularly great efforts to bring about an understanding with French youths. I must say that this was my pet idea. I think that my former assistants mil remember just how intensely I worked on realizing that idea. My "Leaders" periodical, I don't know whether frequently, but certainly once appeared in the French language, so that through this work an understanding between the French and the German youth could be strengthened. servicemen from the first World War, to whom I sent invitations to come to Germany. I very often had French young guests as my visitors in Germany. But, over and above this understanding with France which eventually, incidentally, led to difficulties between the Fuehrer and myself, I cooperated with many, many other youth organizations. as youth was concerned, was supported particularly by the Ambassador Poucet in Berlin, the President Chautemps and other French personalities who wrote in my "Leaders" periodical and wrote about that particular subject. I was in contact with youth leaders all over the world, with whom I exchanged views, and I, myself, have been on many long journeys to visit youth organizations in other countries and find contact with them.
The war, of course, terminated that work. And I don't want to omit to mention here that during one whole year I put the entire work of youth under the heading of understanding and that in all my speeches before youth I always tried to bring about an understanding towards other nations and achieve that. before the war, I think even as late as the winter of '37-'38, and '38 and '39, you received delegations of English youth organizations in skiing camps of the Hitler youth and that there were also during those years considerable delegations of Hitler youth leaders and Hitler youh members who were sent to England so that these people could get to know each other and could get to understand each other?
A. Yes, that is correct. That is correct. There were innumerable camps with foreign youth in Germany, and numerous camps of German youth abroad, and I myself have often visited such camps or have received delegations from such camps.
Here is something else I want to say. As late as 1942 I made an attempt to collaborate with the youth in France, and at that time the difficulty was Mussolini's attitude. I went to Rome, and through Count Ciano's intervention, I had a long conversation with Mussolini in Rome at the end of which I had achieved that he no longer had any objections that the youth of French groups were invited by me to come to Germany. turned it down. At any rate, that is how Herr von Ribbentrop explained the matter to me.
Q. In an article in the paper "Das Archiv" of 1938 there is a statement from which I gather that during that year there were, amony others, the children of 1,000 French servicement who came into the Hitler Youth camps in Germany and who came into the German-French youth skiing camps, invited by you.
A. Yes, I have already told you that.
Q. Another article shows me that, for instance, I believe in 1939, you had a special memorial erected, I think in the Black Forest when some members of an English youth delegation had an accident during the sports there.
A. Yes.
DR SAUTER: Mr. President, the defendant had mentioned earlier that near Berlin he erected a special house for these purposes under the name "The Foreign House of Hitler Youth". May I present a picture of this Foreign house as document number 120 in the original to the Tribunal, and may I ask that the Tribunal should have a look at this picture, because in that picture it is -
THE PRESIDENT: We are quite prepared to take it from you without looking at the house. The particular style of architecture will not affect us.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, but if you will look at the picture, then you will know how the house was furnished, and you will see that in the house, for instance, there was not a single swastika, not a single picture of Hitler, or any such things. That again shows consideration for the views of our foreign gests.
In this connection, Mr. President, may I also ask you to take judicial notice of a number of documents, all of which refer to the efforts of the defendant von Schirach to bring about an understanding between German youth and the youth of other nations. These are the documents in Schirach's document book which have the numbers 99 up to and including 107. Then documents 108 to 113, and also the document 114 up to 116-A, and then documents 117, 119, and 120. All these documents refer to the same subject. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, when you invited such delegations from foreign youth organizations to Germany, was anything ever kept secret from these delegations, particularly with reference to the Hitler Youth, or how was that?
A. No, as a matter of principle, foreign youth leaders who wished to see and get to know our institutions were shown everything without any reserve whatever. There was, in fact, no institution or organization of German youth which was not shown to our foreign guests, and that includes the so-called pre-military education, which was shown to them in every detail.
Q. And then in 1939 the second world war broke out. During the last months before that happened, did you seriously expect a war or with what did you occupy yourself at the time?
A. I was firmly convinced that Hitler would not allow a war to happen. It was my opinion that he was in no way deceived about the fact that the Western Powers were firmly decided to be serious about this. Until the day when war broke out, I firmly believed that the war could be avoided.
Q. Did you discuss with military leaders or political personalities at that time the danger of war and the possibilities of a peaceful solution? Did you have any discussions with them?
A. No, in fact, I want to say something about my discussions with military personalities right now. 1945; 13 years -- I had perhaps one or possibly two half-hour conversations with Field Marshal Keitel. I remember that one of them dealt entirely with the question of personnel.
Admiral Raeder, and Grand Admiral Doenitz I only met here in Nurnberg. and the late Field Marshal von Blomberg, if I remember rightly, I talked to either once or possibly twice for half-an-hour. I had no official discussions with the former Supreme Commander of the Army, von Fritsch. I was his guest on one occasion when he was running skiing competitions for the army and he kindly invited me because he knew that I was interested in skiing. before the youth of Koenigsberg in 1933. Later I visited him once on some official visit, and we discussed a question which was of no importance for the education of youth. It was some technical matter. and discussions. I had an organization comprising eight million people which I ran, and I was serving that organization in such a way that I did not have the possibility to participate in conferences in Berlin and discussions regarding the situation, even if I had been admitted to them, which was not the case.
Q. Witness, since 1932 you have been Reichsleiter. That means that you belonged to the highest level of leaders in the Party. Were you not, in that capacity as Reichsleiter, informed by Hitler, his deputy or other political personalities about the political situation?
A. I think that on an average Hitler received the Reichs and Gau Loiters twice per annum, when he invited them for a conference or a meeting, during which he discussed political events retrospectively. Never at any time did Hitler discuss before these men operations of the future, be they of a political or military nature.
Q. Then, if I understand your answer correctly, you were always surprised by these foreign events and facts?
A. Yes.
Q. Does the same apply to the question of the Austrian Anschluss?
A. Yes. I knew or heard of the Anschluss of Austria, which of course I hailed, if I remember rightly, during a journey by car from my academy at Braunschweig to Berlin, through the radio.
I continued my journey to Berlin, and there I boarded a train at once, and the following morning I arrived in Vienna. There I greeted the youth and the youth leaders, some of whom had been imprisoned for a long time or in concentration camps at Wuellersdorf, and also many women youth leaders, who also had faced a very serious fate.
Czechoslovakia? through radio, and I didn't hear any more than any other citizen heard through the wireless. negotiations regarding the Munich Pact, with Chamberlain and Daladier in 1938?
Q. And what was your opinion? and it was my firm conviction that Hitler would keep that agreement ing Poland in 1939?
A No, I didn't hear about the negotiations which led to the war until I was here in this courtroom. I only know that version of those negotiations which was officially announced through the wireless or the Ministry of Propaganda respectively, and I know no more, therefore, than what every other German citizen know. The version which Hitler announced before the Reichstag was considered by no to be absolutely true, and I never doubted it, or at least I didn't doubt it until 1943, and all I have heard here about it is news to me. accused you that in your book "Hitler Youth, Idea and porn", which, Mr. President, is No. L-360, you used the expression "Lebensraum", living space, and "Ostraum", eastern space, and that by doing so you expressed the idea that the occupation carried out by Germany in the Hast, that is to say Soviet Russia and Poland, were wanted by you or considered a necessity.
What do you have to say about that?
A In this book of mine, "Hitler Youth, Its porn and Ide the word "Lebensraum", living space, isn't used at all. Only the word "eastern space" is used, Ostraum, and I think it is in connec tion with a press service, eastern section.
In an aside, an auxiliary sentence, there is a statement describing the tasks of the Colonial Department in the Hitler Youth, and saying that through the activities of this Colonial Department one oughtn't forgot the fact that the necessity exists of drawing the attention of youth to the use of space in the East, and by that I meant the thinly populated eastern parts of Germany. particularly concerned with the problem of escape from the land, that is to say, the departure of the second or third sons of farmer to towns. I formed a special movement of youth for that purpose, the rural service, which had the task of stopping this flow of yout from the country to the town, and which had the task of bringing home to youth in towns the advantages of the country. That was their task. territory because, ever since I occupied myself with history, politically it was always my point of view that Bismarck's policy regarding cooperation with Russia should be commenced again. The attack against the Soviet Union was considered by me to be the suicide of the German nation. Reich, have the right to report to Hitler directly of your own from will? more or less only on paper. To picture that precisely, before the seizure of power I reported to Hitler more frequently in person. I 1932, he quite often announced his intention to dine with me in the evening, but it is quite clear that in the presence of my wife and other guests political questions were not discussed, particularly not the questions which fell into my special tasks. Only now and then, perhaps, I might touch upon a subject which interested me in connection with education.
sonally twice, once regarding the financing of the youth movement, and the second time in connection with the Party Rally of 1933. During the following years, my reports numbered once or twice nor annum on the average, but something happened to me which probably happened to most people who reported to Hitler, namely that of the 15 points on which I proposed to report to him, I managed to deal with two or three or four, and the others had to be dropped because he interrupted me and very explicitly explained the things which interested him most. stadiums, youth hostels, and such things, which I erected in a hall in the Reichschancellory, and when he looked at them I used the opportunity to put two or three questions to him. youth. Hitler took very little interest in educational questions. As far as education was concerned, I received next to no suggestions from him. The only time when he did produce a real suggestion as far as athletic training was concerned was in 1935 when he told me that I should see to it that boxing should be more popular amongst the youth. I did so, but in spite of invitations he never attended a boxing match for the youngsters, and my friend von Schammerosten, the sports leader, and I tried very often to bring him alone, to make him come to our sporting events, skiing, ice hockey championships in Garmisch, and so forth, but apart from the events of the Olympic games, it was impossible to get him to participate.
Q. Witness, you have told us a little earlier how this so-called military or pre-military education worked, as far as one could talke about such education and you said that it played only a minor part in the training and education of Hitler Youth. in accordance with your ideas, were the chief aims of your youth education. Only give clue words.
A. Tent camps, journeys, building of youth hostels and homes.
Q. What do you mean by "journeys"?
A. Walks, marches individually and in groups; walks; the construction of more and more youth hostels. In one year alone, more than 1,000 homes and youth hostels were built by me in Germany. Then there was additional professional training, and then what I called the Olympic events of work, namely the annual trade contests, voluntary competition between all youth of both sexes who wanted to participate.
Q. You mean working youth?
A. Yes, and in fact millions participated.
Q. And then?
A. Our normal sports events, championships in every type of sport, our cultural work, and the construction of our singing groups, acting groups, concert groups and choirs, our youth libraries, and then something which I mentioned in connection with the escape from the land, the rural service with its helper groups, those youths, who for idealistic reasons were working in the country, even when they were town boys, to show the farmer boys that the land was really more beautiful than the town, so a town boy, too, would give up his life in town to devote his life to the land. Then, the dental service and medical examinations were carried out. had, but they are by no means all.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, these ideas, these thoughts, and these aims of defendant von Schirach are contained in a number of documents which are found in the document book Schirach, and which are extracts from his works, speeches and orders. I am referring to document book Schirach, 32 to 39, 44 to 50, 66 to 74-A, 76 to 79, and, finally, 80 to 83, all inclusive. has just described to you, and I am asking the Tribunal to take judicial notice of the details in these documents. BY DR. SAUTER: like to deal, because the prosecution has particularly raised that accusation against you. That is your collaboration with the Lawyers Union, that is to say, your contact with legal life. I am interestedin that connection, why did you, the Reich Youth Leader, interest yourself in legal problems at all? What were you aiming at, and what did you achieve? Please, will you tell us that very briefly, because it has been emphasized during the case for the Prosecution. being a Youth State. In that Youth State all professions were represented, and all tasks. My collaboration with the Lawyers Union was due to the necessity that for our professional use we should train legal advisors who could offer them the necessary legal protection. I was anxious that those Hitler Youth Leaders who were studying law should return to the organization to deal with just these tasks within the organization. zation within the youth which was equivalent to the organization of medical officers in this organization. You see, our organization comprised approximately 1,000 doctors and female doctors. These legal men assisted the staff in the district and various units of our Youth Organization. They assisted in seeing to it that those demands were put through which I had made very early during our fighting time before the seizure of power, and which I had represented emphatically in the State later on, namely, the demands for free time and for paid holidays for the young workers.
faculties for youth right attached to the universities at Kiel and Bonn, and it particularly had the result that those demands which I have voiced in a speech in 1936 before the Legal Youth Committee of the Academy for German Law could be carried through.
DR. SAUTER: That is Document 63. It is a speech which is contained, Mr. President, in document book Schirach, Number 63. It is an article in "Das Archiv" of October 1936. BY DR. SAUTER: demands you as Reich Youth Leader had made regarding the youth, which social demands. You said earlier, free time. What did you mean by that? the abolishment of night work for young peopoe; a prohibition of work for children; extending weekends; and three weeks paid holiday every year. workers had no holidays at all, and that only one percent had 15 to 18 days per annum. In 1938, on the other hand, I had achieved the Youth Protection Law which ordered the prohibition of work for children, and which stated that the age for youngsters was put up from 16 to 18; and which stated that there was to be no night work for youngsters; and which realized my demand regarding the extended weekend, and increased holidays for youngsters to at least 15 days per annum. That was all I could achieve. It was only part of what I wanted to achieve. document book under document numbers 40, 41, and 60 to 64, inclusive.
DR. SAUTER: I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of these. BY DR. SAUTER:
that is your position within the Party. Sometime ago we were shown a chart in this court room, which showed the organization of the Party. Was that plan true, or what was your position within the Party? at least not as far as the channels of command are concerned. According to this chart which was exhibited here, the channel of orders would have been from Reich Loader for Youth and Education to the Chief of the Party Chancellory, and from there to Hitler and from Hitler to the Reich Youth Loaders office of the Party. That of course is an erroneous picture.
I wasn't in the Party Loader's office to give my orders through the Gauleiters and district leaders. The reason why I was there was because I was the representative and head of youth, so that if you want to describe my position and the position of my organization in the framework of the NSDAP correctly, then you would have to show or build a pyramid, the tip of which, that is to say, my position in the Party Leader's office, should be on the same level as the Reichsleiter. with the Party.
Q And the other leaders and sub-leaders of youth?
A Some of them may have been Party members, but not all. At any rate, they were not members of the Gauleiters' offices or Kreisleiters' offices. The entire State of youth, the entire organization of youth, stood by the side of the Party as an entire organization of its own. a civil servant of the Reich. of a high Reich office; is that right? civil servant.
Q And the title was?
with reference to the Minister of Interior and Education Ministers, were independent, weren't you?
A Yes, that was the idea of creating that department. That was the purpose of an independent Reich department. been stated?
A I am convinced not. For the first time in this court room I heard that I was a member of the cabinet, that I was supposed to be a member of the cabinet. I have never participated in a cabinet meeting. I have never received a decree or any such document which would make me a member of the cabinet. I have never received invitations to attend cabinet meetings. In fact, I have never considered myself as a member of the Reichs Cabinet, and I think that the ministers did not consider me as such either. in any way, for instance, by having the records or minutes sent to you?
A No, never. Resolutions passed by the Cabinet after the 1st December 1936, as far as any such resolutions were passed, only reached me in the same way as they reached any other employees of the Reich who read the Reich Law Gesetz or the Ministerial Gesetz of the Reich. Records and minutes were never sent to me. you receive your staff which you needed through a ministry, or how did you recruit that staff? were made civil servants through me, and I didn't receive a single official from any ministry who might have dealt with matters relating to youth organizations. The entire supreme Reich department, if I remember correctly, consisted of no more than five officials. It was the smallest supreme Reich Department in the Reich, something I was particularly proud of. We were carrying out a very large task with a minimum number of personnel.
rather lengthy, and that is the affidavit which you have already mentioned, by Greger Ziemer. That is a very large affidavit which has been presented by the prosecution under the number 2441 PS.
witness, what do you have to say indetail to that affidavit? Do you know it? Do you know this man Ziemer? so-called knowledge? American school in Berlin; that is, before the war, and that he has written a book which apparently deals with youth and school education in Germany, and that this affidavit is an extract from that book. I believe, to have more propaganda and political significance than depicted. is the page which contains Ziemer's affidavit; and in the last paragraph it says that there had been street fights outside the American school between the Jewish scholars in their school and the little youngsters. I need not deal with the difficulties which the school itself had, because they did not come under my sphere of influence. But these street fights took place outside the school ; and I think I ought to say something about them. heard about them under all circumstances because during most of 1938 I was in Berlin. So I would have had to hoar of it certainly through the youth organizationitself, because the senior youth leaders would have had to report to me if that incident had taken place. office, because if youngsters from the American colony had been molested there, there would have had to be protests through the embassy and the foreign office, and those protests would most certainly have been passed on to me at once, and, in fact, reported to me by telephone.
I can only imagine that this is a very large exaggeration. The American ambassador, Wilson -- I think this was in the Spring of 1929, and I do not think I am wrong - had breakfasted with me in the foreign house at Gatau , and among other things we discussed a number of subjects. And amongst them -and afterwards I was sure of that on this occasion -- he would most certainly have mentioned such incidents if they had in reality occurred in the war Mr. Ziemers is describing them. which is -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing) How much of this document has been read by the prosecution? As far as I know, very little.
DR. SAUTER: I beg your pardon?
THE PRESIDENT: How much of this affidavit has been read and put in evidence by the prosecution?
DR. SAUTER: I am afraid I cannot tell you that offhand, Mr. President. But judging by practice, I am of the view that if the document is submitted to the Tribunal, the entire document is taken under judicial notice by the tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: That is not so. We have stated over and over again that we take judicial notice only of documents whichhave been read to the Tribunal, unless they are documents of which full translations have been given. This document was, I suppose, presented in the course of the prosecution's case, and probably one sentence out of it was read at the time. I do not know how much was read; but you and the defendant ought to know.
MR. DODD: There was only one paragraph read, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: One paragraph.
MR. DODD: One full paragraph, and perhaps one short one on Page 21.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have it here.
MR. DODD: I think the prosecution covered the part having to do with the speech at Heidelberg.
THE PRESIDENT: And that is the only part of it that has been read, and that is, therefore, the only part of it that is in evidence.
THE WITNESS: Perhaps with reference to credibility -- and I shall not deal in detail with the accusations contained in that affidavit -- I might be allowed to say that with one exception all the annual slogans of the Hitler Youth were misrepresented in this affidavit, and that Gregor Ziemer nevertheless swears to the correctness of his statement.