that any youth organization can be established with compulsion on youth and can be successful, that that concept is absolutely wrong. at a disadvantage for that reason? vantage in that they could not take part in our camping and our competitions. They were outsiders of the youth life, and there was a danger that they would become hypochondriacs. the H. J. was a prerequisite to working in those professions?
Q What were the professions?
A For instance, the profession of teacher. It is quite clear that a teacher can not educate youth unless he himself knows the ways of life of that youth, and so we demanded that the young teachers had to have gone through the H. J. The junior teacher had to be familiar with the ways of life of the students who were under his supervision.
membership in the HJ was not a pre-requisite for admission; or was it?
A I could not answer that is detail. I believe that thediscussion about that is unnecessary, because the entire youth was in the Hitler Youth. cating the Fuehrer principle. Therefore, I ask you, was that Fuehrer principle also in the HJ, and in what form was it carried out in the HJ? and I should like to remind you of that kind of Fuehrer principle about which we knew here from testimony.
A Of course, the HJ was founded on the Fuehrer principle; only the entire form of leadership of youth was basically different from that of other national socialist organizations. For instance, we had the custom in youth leadership to discuss all questions frankly and openly in our meetings in the district. There were lively debates. I myself educated my assistants in discipline. Of course, once we had discussed a measure and debated a measure and I had given an order or directive, that ended the debate. years of working together and serving the same purpose, had become a unity of many thousands. They had become friends. It is evident that in a group of that kind the carrying out of orders and directives takes place in entirely differen ways from in a military organization or in any political organization.
A (interposing) May I just add one more thing? A leadership based on a natural authority such as we had in the yough organization is something which is not alien to youth at all. Such leadership with youth never became dictatorshi And in that connection, the fact has been pointed out that your HJ was very uniformed. Is that correct? And why did the HJ wear uniforms? there are documents to illustrate it, I considered the uniform of the HJ always as a "dressed-up" comradeship. The uniform was the symbol of a community without classes. The young worker, the worker's boy, were the same garb that theson of the university professor was wearing. The girl from the wealthy family were the same garb as the child of the day laborer.
Hence the uniform. This uniform did not have a military significance at all.
Dr. SAUTER: In that connection, Mr. President, May I ask you to take judi cial notice of the document Schirach No 55-A and 117, where in writing by the defendant von Schirach the same trends of thought were expressed, in fact, many years ago, which he is expressing today.
I should like to ask also, Mr. President, for permission to correct an error in Document 55, an page 98, in a quotation from a book by Schirach. There it says, "Even the son of the millionaire has no more power --"
I do not know whether you have found the passage. It is on page 77 of the book by Dr. Schirach, Page 98 of the Document Book. There is a quotation near the botton of the page under the heading "Page 77" "Even the son of the millionaire has no more power that the son of the unemployed person."
The ward "Power" corresponding to the German word "Macht" is in error, and should be the word "Dress" corresponding to the German word "Tracht"; so I ask now to have the word "Macht", "power" changed to the word "Tracht", "dress" BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, I shall then continue with the interrogation. You have been accused of using influence psychologically and pedagogically which you had during the war. You have been accused of participating in a conspiracy for that purpose, a conspiracy by which the National Socialist movement acquired the total power in Germany, and finally planned and carried out agressive war.
What can you say about that?
A. I did not participate in any conspiracy. I did not consider it participation in any conspiracy; I cannot consider it participation in any conspiracy if I joined the National Socialist Party. The program of that party had been approved and published. The party was admitted to election. Neither Hitler nor any of his assistants ever said that he wanted to assume power by a coup d'etat. Again and again in public he stated not once but a hundred times, "I want to overcome that parliamentary system by legal means, because it is bringing us deeper and deeper into misery". told my 60,000 constituents similar things in electoral campaigns. There was nothing which would prove the fact of conspiracy, nothing which was discussed behind closed doors. Whatever we wanted we admitted frankly before the nation. And as far as newsprint is read around the globe, anybody abroad could have been informed about our aims and purposes. take part in any conference or issuing of orders which would indicate preparations for an aggressive war. I believe that could be seen from the proceedings in this court up to now. believe that there existed a conspiracy. The thought of conspiracy is in contradiction to the idea of dictatorship. A dictatorship does not conspire; a dictotorship commands.
Q. Witness, what did the leadership of the Hitler Youth do to prepare youth for the war and to train youth for war-like purposes?
A. Before I answer that question, I believe I have to explain briefly the difference between military training and pre-military education.
Military training, in my opinion, is all training with weapons or war, and all training which is conducted by military personnel, with and without weapons; that is to say, by officers. all education which comes before the time of military service. In special casis it is a special preparation for military service. We restricted such drill as being contrary to the principles of youth. I am not giving my own opinion here, but the opinion of thousands of my assistants.
in Germany before, were rejected by me; and the continuation of such Wehrjugend work, defense youth group work, within the HJ, was rejected by me. I had always been strongly opposed to playing soldier in the youth organization. With all my high esteem for the profession of an officer, I still do not consider an officer capable of leading youth because always, in some form or other, he will apply the tone of the drill field and the forms of military leadership to youth. That is the reason why I did not have any officers as my assistants in the Hitler Youth. I was criticized by the armed forces repeatedly. I should like to stress that that did not come from the High Command; Field Marshal Keitel, especially, had a great deal of understanding for my ideas. However, at any rate, within the armed forces, here and there, criticism was heard against my general attitude of opposition to having officers used as leaders of a youth organization. The principle of youth leading youth had never been perpetrated in Germany. prepared for the war and trained in a military sense, I have to say, in conclusion, that the center of gravity of youth work in Germany was the training for occupations, camping, and competition in sports. The physical training, which perhaps in some way could be considered a preparation for military service, was only a very small part and took up a very small part of our time. Hitler Youth, for instance, the district of Hessen Nassau. A Gebiet is about the same as a Gau. Of its own funds, in 1939, it spent, for trips and camps, nine-twentieths; for cultural work, three-twentieths; for Land Dienst, the Land Service, and other tasks, and for the welfare offices, five-twentieths. The same area spent, in 1944 -- that is, one year before the end of the war -- for cultural work, four-twentieths; for sports and defense training, five-twentieths; for Land Dienst, Land Service, and other tasks, six-twentieths; and for the evacuation of youths to the country, five-twentieths.
area, in the same district, in the time from 1936 until 1943, spent nothing, or had no expense for racial-political education. In 1944, for racial-political education, 20 marks were spent and are listed in that budget for the acquisition of a picture book about hereditary and venereal diseases. However, in that same district, in one single town, during the same time, 200,000 marks of subsidies were given to get youth into the theatres. answered by me without mentioning small caliber ranges. Small caliber firing was a sport among the German youth. It was carried out according to international rules of sport shooting. Small caliber shooting, according to Article 177 of the Treaty of Versailles, was not prohibited. It says, in that article of the treaty, verbatim, that in hunting organizations and sport organizations, it is prohibited to train their members in the use of war weapons. The smallcaliber rifle, however, is not a war weapon. For our sport shooting we used a rifle like the American 22-caliber. It was used with the Flobersche, short or long, 22 caliber. and other so-called pre-military training can be found in a handbook which has the title, "HJ in the Service". That book was printed and published, and it was sold not only in Germany, but also abroad. that book, which was in an educational pamphlet, number 109. With the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to quote briefly, from this educational pamphlet, what was said about that book. I quote in English:
"It cannot fairly be said to be in essence a more militaristic work than any thoroughgoing, exhaustice, and comprehensive manual of boy scout training would be. Some 40 pages are, to be sure, devoted to the theory and practice of shooting small caliber rifle and air run, but there is nothing in them to which exception can reasonably be taken, and the worst that one can say of them is that they may be confidently recommended to the notice of any boy scout wishing to qualify for his marksmanship badge."
For the intellectual attitude of youth. I can only say that it was definitely not militaristic.
Q. We will probably refer to that later with a specific question. and trained with those small caliber rifles. Was the Hitler Youth also trained with infantry rigles, or machine guns, or machine pistols?
A. Principally not.
Q. Not at all?
A. Not a single German boy, until the war, had been trained with a war weapon, a military weapon. That is, an infantry rifle, a machine gun, on an infantry gun or hand grenade.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in the document book Schirach are several documents which will show what the attitude of the defendant von Schirach was concerning the question of military or pre-military education of youth, and that it was exactly the same as he has stated it today, particularly, that he was opposed to any military drill and all such things.
These are documents in the document book Schirach: 55, 122, 123, 127, 127-a, 128, and 131. I ask you to take judicial notice of these documents. They contain, on the whole, the same statements which von Schirach has brief made. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Herr von Schirach, in connection with the so-called military train ing of youth, I should like to know the following. What was the influence of the SA on the training and education of youth?
A. None at all. The SA tried to have an influence on the education and training of youth.
A. None at all. The SA tried to have an influence on the education and training of youth.
Q. In what way?
A. That was in January of 1939. At that time I was at Dresden, where I arranged a performance which presented modern gymnastics for girls. While I was at that performance, a newspaper was shown to me which carried a decree by Hitler, according to which the two oldest age groups of the Hitler Youth had to receive pro-military training from the SA. I protested against that at once and, after my return to Berlin, I succeeded -- not in having the decree withdrawn; that could not be done, for reasons of prestige, because Hitler's name was under it. However, it was put out of force, so far as the youth were concerned.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that incident is manifested in the document from the Document Book Schirach No. 132. That is a statement from "Das Archiv", a semi-official news periodical. I should like to refer to that with respect to the question of training in shooting. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. I should like to put the question to the Defendant, what was the proportion between the training in shooting and the entire training of the H.J.? Was it a very essential part of the essential part?
A. Unfortunately, I do not have the documentary material here which would enable me to answer that in detail; but at any rate, it was not an essential part of the training within the H.J.
Q. That marksmanship training, did it go any further, according to your experiences and observations, than the marksmanship training of youth in other nations?
A. The marksmanship training of youth in other nations went much farther, much beyond that which we did in Germany.
Q. Do you know that from your own observation?
A. I know that from many of my assistants who have studied continuously the training in other countries, and I know about it from my own experience.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think that is relevant, the fact that other nations trained in marksmanship? I am not sure it's true either, but anyhow, it is not relevant. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Then I come to another question, Witness. The prosecution asserted that thousands of boys were trained militarily by the H.J. in the fields of naval aviation and armored troops, and that over seven thousand teachers train-ed over a million Hitler Youths in rifle marksmanship. That is the quotation from the prosecution which refers to some official statement of the year 1938. I should like to have you state your position concerning the question of the special units of the H.J.
A. Theprosecution refers, if I am not mistaken, to a speech which Hitler made. Just how Hitler come to the figures concerning the training I could not say; I do not know. I can only speak about the training in the special units and say the following, which I can prove with documents:
In the year 1938 the Motor Hitler Jugend -- that is that special unit of our youth organization which the prosecution assumes that it received the pre-training for armored weapons -- in 1938 the Motorized Hitler Youth had vehicles of their own, 3,270-
Q. That is all over Germany?
A. Yes, all over Germany. Private vehicles of their members which, of course, were at their disposal for their work, 3,270; and vehicles of the NSKK, National Socialist Motor Corps, 2,000. In the year 1938 twenty-one thousand youth got their driving licenses I believe, but I can not bessure about that. That is twice the number of younsters that received a driving license in 1937; that is a driving license for a passenger car. These figures alone show that the Motorized Hitler Youth did not receive pre-training for our armored forces. The Motorized Hitler Youth had motorcycles; they made cross-country trips, that is correct. What they learned out of it was, of course, valuable also for the Army if these boys later came into motorized units; but it was not so that the boy had to be in the Motorized Hitler Youth, when he came to the Army. There was no compulsion in that respect. The Motorized Hitler Youth was not created upon the request of the armed forces but it was created in the fighting years long before the seizure of power simply from the natural desire of those boys who owned a motorcycle and wanted to drive it also while they were on duty. So we formed our motorized H.J. and we used these boys as messengers between out tent camps and we used them as drivers for our leaders, monor leaders, and later, in order to give them the regular training, especially knowledge of motors, of engines, we made an arrangement with the NSKK which made it possible to train them in the technical fields; and other units were created in the same way. The flying H.J. has never had any motor planes. We only had gliders. The entire Hitler Youth had one plane, one motor plane and that was my own. Aside from that, the Hitler Youth had only model airplanes and gliders. The Hitler Youth did not only teach their own members in the use of gliding, for instance, in the Rhoen Mountains, but also thousands of youth from England and other countries. We had glider camps where young English men were our guests and we also had camps in England.
Q The Navy H.J., did they have warships?
A The Navy H.J. of course had not a single warship but, from time to time our former Commander in Chief of the Navy, Raeder, gave us an old cutter and with that we put to sea. The boys, for instance, who lived in a city like Berlin, near the Wansee, and wanted to do rowing, they became members of the Navy H.J. They didn't go to the Navy just because they had been in the Navy H.J., but just as many of them went after wards to the Army or the Air Force, and the same thing happened with other special units. Youth was not educated in a military way for the war?
A I should like to be quite precise about that. The training in these special units was carried out in such a manner that it really had pre-military value. That is to say that whatever the boy learned in the Marine Hitler Jugend, regardless of whether he wanted to use it as a sport later or whether he went to the Navy later, the basic principles were valuable as pre-military education. If one considers these special units of the H.J., one can say that here a pre-military education actually took place, but the youth within the Hitler Youth organization were never prepared for the war in any place, not even for the military service, because the youngsters did not go directly from the Hitler Youth into the Army. From the Hitler Youth they went into the labor service.
Q And how long were they in the labor service?
Q Then they came to the armed forces? of an agreement which was made between the H.J. leadership and the OKW in August, 1939, and which has been submitted as Document SP 2398 by the prosecution. What are the facts about that agreement between you and the OKW?
A I could not remember any details. Between Field Marshall Keitel and myself, according to my recollection, there wasn't even a discussion concerning that agreement.
I believe we carried that out in writing and, on the whole, I should like to state that during that entire time from 1933 to '45, between Field Marshal Keitl and myself, only one or two conversations of about half an hour took place.
The agreement, however, came from the following considerations: In the Hitler Youth we had the tendency -- and that was also the tendency of competent men in the armed forces -- to take nothing into our training which belonged to the later military training. However, in the course of years, on the part of the military, the objection had been raised that youth should not learn anything within its training which later would have to be changed in the armed forces. I refer, for instance, to the compass. The Army uses the Infantry Compass. The Hitler Youth, in cross-country shorts, used compasses ofvarious kinds; and it was of course quite senseless that youth leaders should train their boys, for instance, to march after the Besar compass and later, in their training as recruits, the boy had to learn something different. The designation of the terrain should also be given according to the same principles and standards within the Hitler Youth as the Army, and so we came to the agreement by which I believe thirty or forty thousand H.J. Leaders were trained in cross-country sports. In these cross-country sports no training with war weapons took place.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, now I come to a different chapter, and it may be that this is the best time to adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now adjourn.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours).
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 23 May 1946) BY DR. SAUTER: of the military and pre-military education of youth. And now I come to another similar chapter; that is the question whether you as youth leader in your articles and speeches and orders did in any way direct youth towards an aggressive war psychologically and attempted to influence youth in such a way so as to prepare youth in that manner for a war situation or atmosphere. thing which I issued to youth in the way of orders and directives prepare German youth for war; nor have I ever, even in the smallest circles of my assistants, expressed myself in that manner. All my speeches are contained in the collection "Das Archiv" (The Archive), at least in their principal contents; and a considerable part of my speeches is contained in a book "The Revolution in Education", in which they are summarized, which is before this Tribunal. in that sense, and this would have,been a direct contradiction to all my aims, which were that we should cooperate with the youth of ether nations.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, perhaps in this connection I may draw your attention to the document, which is in the document book Schirach under No. 125--I repeat 125, -- and also 126, where Schirach is speaking about the questions of preserving peace and refuses to recognize war. I am asking the Tribunal to take judicial notice of these documents and the evidence they contain. Youth Leadership Office and the German Hitler youth with the youth of other nations. Will you give us a more detailed statement on that, in particular with regard to the question with which youth unions or forces of other nation you have cooperated and have attempted an approach and in which way you have done so and to what degree?
by year, I have made efforts to run exchange camps with the youth in other countries. Here in Germany there have on numerous occasions been groups of French youth, English youth, and Belgian youth, as well as many other countries, particularly Italy, as our guests. I remember that in one year alone, I think in 1936, approximately 200,000 foreign youth spent the night in our youth hostels. that the youth hostel system which I took over in 1933 was extended by me and that finally it formed a part of an international youth hostel system, the president of which was sometimes a German, sometimes an Englishman. There was an international youth hostel agreement which made it possible that youngsters of our nation could stay in youth hostels of the guest nations. I, myself, have made particularly great efforts to bring about an understanding with French youths. I must say that this was my pet idea. I think that my former assistants mil remember just how intensely I worked on realizing that idea. My "Leaders" periodical, I don't know whether frequently, but certainly once appeared in the French language, so that through this work an understanding between the French and the German youth could be strengthened. servicemen from the first World War, to whom I sent invitations to come to Germany. I very often had French young guests as my visitors in Germany. But, over and above this understanding with France which eventually, incidentally, led to difficulties between the Fuehrer and myself, I cooperated with many, many other youth organizations. as youth was concerned, was supported particularly by the Ambassador Poucet in Berlin, the President Chautemps and other French personalities who wrote in my "Leaders" periodical and wrote about that particular subject. I was in contact with youth leaders all over the world, with whom I exchanged views, and I, myself, have been on many long journeys to visit youth organizations in other countries and find contact with them.
The war, of course, terminated that work. And I don't want to omit to mention here that during one whole year I put the entire work of youth under the heading of understanding and that in all my speeches before youth I always tried to bring about an understanding towards other nations and achieve that. before the war, I think even as late as the winter of '37-'38, and '38 and '39, you received delegations of English youth organizations in skiing camps of the Hitler youth and that there were also during those years considerable delegations of Hitler youth leaders and Hitler youh members who were sent to England so that these people could get to know each other and could get to understand each other?
A. Yes, that is correct. That is correct. There were innumerable camps with foreign youth in Germany, and numerous camps of German youth abroad, and I myself have often visited such camps or have received delegations from such camps.
Here is something else I want to say. As late as 1942 I made an attempt to collaborate with the youth in France, and at that time the difficulty was Mussolini's attitude. I went to Rome, and through Count Ciano's intervention, I had a long conversation with Mussolini in Rome at the end of which I had achieved that he no longer had any objections that the youth of French groups were invited by me to come to Germany. turned it down. At any rate, that is how Herr von Ribbentrop explained the matter to me.
Q. In an article in the paper "Das Archiv" of 1938 there is a statement from which I gather that during that year there were, amony others, the children of 1,000 French servicement who came into the Hitler Youth camps in Germany and who came into the German-French youth skiing camps, invited by you.
A. Yes, I have already told you that.
Q. Another article shows me that, for instance, I believe in 1939, you had a special memorial erected, I think in the Black Forest when some members of an English youth delegation had an accident during the sports there.
A. Yes.
DR SAUTER: Mr. President, the defendant had mentioned earlier that near Berlin he erected a special house for these purposes under the name "The Foreign House of Hitler Youth". May I present a picture of this Foreign house as document number 120 in the original to the Tribunal, and may I ask that the Tribunal should have a look at this picture, because in that picture it is -
THE PRESIDENT: We are quite prepared to take it from you without looking at the house. The particular style of architecture will not affect us.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, but if you will look at the picture, then you will know how the house was furnished, and you will see that in the house, for instance, there was not a single swastika, not a single picture of Hitler, or any such things. That again shows consideration for the views of our foreign gests.
In this connection, Mr. President, may I also ask you to take judicial notice of a number of documents, all of which refer to the efforts of the defendant von Schirach to bring about an understanding between German youth and the youth of other nations. These are the documents in Schirach's document book which have the numbers 99 up to and including 107. Then documents 108 to 113, and also the document 114 up to 116-A, and then documents 117, 119, and 120. All these documents refer to the same subject. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, when you invited such delegations from foreign youth organizations to Germany, was anything ever kept secret from these delegations, particularly with reference to the Hitler Youth, or how was that?
A. No, as a matter of principle, foreign youth leaders who wished to see and get to know our institutions were shown everything without any reserve whatever. There was, in fact, no institution or organization of German youth which was not shown to our foreign guests, and that includes the so-called pre-military education, which was shown to them in every detail.
Q. And then in 1939 the second world war broke out. During the last months before that happened, did you seriously expect a war or with what did you occupy yourself at the time?
A. I was firmly convinced that Hitler would not allow a war to happen. It was my opinion that he was in no way deceived about the fact that the Western Powers were firmly decided to be serious about this. Until the day when war broke out, I firmly believed that the war could be avoided.
Q. Did you discuss with military leaders or political personalities at that time the danger of war and the possibilities of a peaceful solution? Did you have any discussions with them?
A. No, in fact, I want to say something about my discussions with military personalities right now. 1945; 13 years -- I had perhaps one or possibly two half-hour conversations with Field Marshal Keitel. I remember that one of them dealt entirely with the question of personnel.
Admiral Raeder, and Grand Admiral Doenitz I only met here in Nurnberg. and the late Field Marshal von Blomberg, if I remember rightly, I talked to either once or possibly twice for half-an-hour. I had no official discussions with the former Supreme Commander of the Army, von Fritsch. I was his guest on one occasion when he was running skiing competitions for the army and he kindly invited me because he knew that I was interested in skiing. before the youth of Koenigsberg in 1933. Later I visited him once on some official visit, and we discussed a question which was of no importance for the education of youth. It was some technical matter. and discussions. I had an organization comprising eight million people which I ran, and I was serving that organization in such a way that I did not have the possibility to participate in conferences in Berlin and discussions regarding the situation, even if I had been admitted to them, which was not the case.
Q. Witness, since 1932 you have been Reichsleiter. That means that you belonged to the highest level of leaders in the Party. Were you not, in that capacity as Reichsleiter, informed by Hitler, his deputy or other political personalities about the political situation?
A. I think that on an average Hitler received the Reichs and Gau Loiters twice per annum, when he invited them for a conference or a meeting, during which he discussed political events retrospectively. Never at any time did Hitler discuss before these men operations of the future, be they of a political or military nature.
Q. Then, if I understand your answer correctly, you were always surprised by these foreign events and facts?
A. Yes.
Q. Does the same apply to the question of the Austrian Anschluss?
A. Yes. I knew or heard of the Anschluss of Austria, which of course I hailed, if I remember rightly, during a journey by car from my academy at Braunschweig to Berlin, through the radio.
I continued my journey to Berlin, and there I boarded a train at once, and the following morning I arrived in Vienna. There I greeted the youth and the youth leaders, some of whom had been imprisoned for a long time or in concentration camps at Wuellersdorf, and also many women youth leaders, who also had faced a very serious fate.