It was on that occasion that I was presented to him. The program for the community which he developed interested me and appealed to me so enormously because in that I found in principle something which I had advocated in a small way amongst my comrades in the youth organization. He appeared to me to be the man who would show the way into the future to our generation and clear it for them; and I believed that through him there would be the prospect for that young generation for work, for an existence, for happiness; and he appeared to be the man who would liberate us from the shackles of Versailles. Hitler would never have happened. The dictate led to dictatorship.
Q. Witness, when did you become a member of the Party?
A. I became a member of the Party in 1925, and I simultaneously, and all my comrades, joined the SA.
Q. You were eighteen at the time, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you join the SA?
A. The SA were furnishing this protection for the meetings and we quite simply joined the SA and took up our place in the SA, in the Party, and continued the activities which we had carried out before in our own youth movement.
Q. In 1926, witness, that is when you were nineteen years old, there was a Party Rally in Weimar?
A. Yes.
Q. As far as I know, you talked to Hitler personally on that occasion; is that correct?
A. Yes. I had talked personally to Hitler one year earlier, and on this occasion there was a renewed meeting. He was making speeches before mass meetings, and he came back to Weimar once again during that same year to speak before a smaller circle. Together with Rudolf Hess he paid a visit to the home of my parents and it was on that occasion that he suggested that I should study in Munich.
Q. Why.
A. Because he though that I ought to know the center of Party activities.
and because he thought that in that manner I ought to become acquainted with the work of the Party. But I want to say at once in this connection that at that time I still didn't intend to become a politician. I was very interested, of course, in seeing the activities of the movement at the very place where it had been founded.
Q. Well, then you went to Munich, didn't you?
A. Yes, I did; and there I became a student at the Munich University. I studied and, to start with, I didn't concern myself with the Party at all. I carried out my studies of Germanism, art, and history of art, and I wrote. I came into contact with large numbers of people, numbers of people in Munich who weren't actually National Socialists but who belonged, shall I say, to the sympathizers of the National Socialist movement. At that time and in the house of my friend publisher Bruckmann -
Q. In 1929 you became the head of the university movement, didn't you? I think you were, in fact, not nominated but elected, weren't you?
A. The situation at the beginning was this: I attended the Party meetings at the beginning in Munich and in Bruckmann's Salon I came into contact with Hitler and with Rosenberg. Just as I met them, more men who played an important part in Germany I met later. And at the university I joined the high school part of the National Socialist student movement THE PRESIDENT:
Yes, go on.
BY DR. SAUTER: jointed this high school group in Munich, and now will you please continue?
A Yes, I started to become active in this group. First of all, I spoke before my comrades about my own work in the literary field, and then I began to give lectures to students about the National Socialist movement. I organized student meetings on behalf of Hitler among the students in Munich. ASTA, and through that activity among the students to an ever-increasing degree I came into more and more contact with the Party. Union retired,ad the question arose as to who should become the leader of the entire university movement. At that time Rudolf Hess, on behalf of the Fuehrer, questioned all university groups of the National Socialist University Movement. The majority of all these groups of the various universities gave their vote to me to become the head of the National Socialist Students Union. Thus, it appears that I am the only Party leader who was actually elected into the Party leadership, which is a course of events which has never again occurred in the history of the Party. nominated, and you only were elected.
Q If I am right, then, you were elected during the students' meeting at Graz.
A No, that isn't correct; that is wrong. I am now only talking of the National Socialist Students Movement. I shall come to your point later. I reorganized, and I began my auditory activities.
THE PRESIDENT: Surely it is sufficient that he became the leader. It really doesn't very much matter to us whether he was elected or not.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I am making every effort all the time to abbreviate this speech as much as possible, but perhaps I may ask just one more question with reference to the subject.
BY DR. SAUTER: student meeting, Austrian and German, comprising all parties therefor. I think it is right that you were elected unanimously as president, weren't you; is that right?
A It isn't correct. At the general students meeting in 1931 where all students of Germany and Austria were represented, one of my assistants was unanimously elected as the leader of all German students. This was a most important affair for the youth and the Party. Twoyears before the seizure of power the entire academic youth had unanimously given their vote to a National Socialist. After the students rally at Graz -
THE PRESIDENT: I think this would be a convenient time to adjourn.
DR. SAUTER: Very well.
(A recess was taken) BY DR. SAUTER: fact that in 1929 you became theleader of the academic youth. Two years later, Hitler made you Reich Youth Leader. How did that appointment come about? very surprising to Hitler, I had a conference with Hitler. In the course of that meeting, Hitler mentioned a conversation we had had some time before. At that time he had asked me how it came about that the National Socialist youth movement was developing so quickly, whereas other National Socialist organizations were rather retarded in their development. appendix of a political party; youth has to be led by youth, and I developed the idea of the youth state, that idea which I had received from the experience of the school community, the school state. leadership of the National Socialist Youth Organization. There were a large number of organizations, National Socialist Youth in Industry, then Hitler Youth and National Socialist Pupils' organizations which also existed at that time. Several individuals had tried the leadership of these organization the SA leader Pfeffer, The Reich Leader Such, really without too good results. a member of the staff of the highest SA leader Roehm. In that position, as Reich Youth Leader of the NSDAP and the staff of Roehm, I had the rank of an SA Gruppenfuehrer and kept that rank also half a year later when I became independent in my position. As to how I became an SA Obergruppenfuehrer many years later, I believe in 1941, I became that as honoris causa. However, I did not possess the uniform after 1933.
Q Then in 1931 you became Reich Youth Leader of the NSDAP?
Q That, of course, was a Party office?
Q Then in 1932 you became Reich Leader. At that time you were 25 years old. How did that come about?
not be the appendix of another organization, but youth had to be independent; it had to lead itself; it had to become independent. It was the fulfilment of a promise which Hitler had given me at that time that now, half a year later, I become the independent Reich Leader.
Q Independent Reich Leader; Reichsleiter, so that you were subordinate immediately to the Party leader, that is, Hitler? time?
Q And how did you get these funds? By collections? membership fees was kept at the so-called district leadership offices. These were the offices which in the Party were the same as the Gauleitung or, in the SA, the Gruppeleitung. Another part went to the Reich Youth Leadership. The Hitler Youth financed its organization with its own means.
Q Then, I am interested in the following. Did the Hitler Youth, which you created and to which you gave the name of Hitler, get its importance only after the seizure of power and by the seizure of power, or what was the previous size and importance of that youth organization which you had created? the largest youth movement of Germany. I should like to add that the individual National Socialist youth organizations which I found when I took over my office as Reich Youth Leader were collected by me in one large youth movement. This youth movement was the strongest youth movement of Germany, long before we came to power. and on the occasion of that meeting more than 100,000 youth from all over the Reich came together without the Party's providing a single pfennig. All the means came from the youth itself. From that number of participants alone, you can see that that was the longest youth movement.
time already more than 100,000 participants were at that rally at Potsdam? seizure of power -- I believe in February 1933 -- you put your members into the Reich Committee of Youth Organizations. Is that correct, and against whom was that action directed?
A That is correct. The Reich Committee of Youth Organizations was practically no more than a statistical office which was subordinated to the Reich Minister of the Interior. That office was managed by a retired general, General Vogt, who later became one of my ablest collaborators. The taking over of that Reich Committee was a revolutionary act, an action which youth committed for youth, and from that day on dates the realization of the thought of a youth state within the state.
the Grossdeutsche Bund in 1933, that is, after the seizure of power. What was the Grossdeutsche Bund, and why did you dissolve it? an organization of youth groups with great pan-German tendencies. I am surprised, therefore, that the Prosecution has accused me of the dissolution of that organization. Many members of the German Union were National Socialists. There was very little difference between several of the groups which were collected in that organization on the one hand and the Hitler Youth on the other. I strove for unity of youth, and the German Union wanted to continue a separate existence. I objected to that. Therefore, there was agitated public controversy with Admiral von Trothar, the leader of the German Union, and in the and the German Union was coordinated into our youth organization. I cannot remember. I know only that the members joined our organization. Between Admiral von Trothar and me a reconciliation took place, and Admiral von Trothar until his death was one of the greatest sponsors of my work. organizations? zations, if I remember correctly, came out in connection with the prohibition of trade unions. I have no documents any more about that, but at any rate, from the legal point of view, I was not authorized in 1933 to express a prohibition of that kind. The Minister of the Interior was supposed to do that. The right to prohibit youth organizations, de jure, I had only after 1 December 1936. of course for me, and in speaking about this prohibition as such, I can only say that the German Workers Youth found the realization of its social ideals, socialistic ideas, not within the Weimar Republic but in the Hitler Youth.
Q Witness, at first you were Reich leader of the NSDAP. That was a party office. After the seizure of power, you became Youth Leader of the German Reich. That was a state office. On the basis of this state or national office, did you have competence and responsibility for the school system?
Education, and Culture was the only competent person. I was competent for education outside the schools -- outside the home and the school, as it says in the law of 1936. However, I had some schools of my own, the so-called Adolf Hitler Schools, which I shall mention in detail later. They were not subject to supervision by the state. During the war, by the action of sending children into the country -- that is, the organization by which we took care of the evacuation of youth from areas that were in danger of bombing raids -at that time within the camps where these children were collected, I had the competence for education, but on the whole I have to answer the question about competence for the schools system in Germany with No. Hitler Youth, the H.J.-- was membership to the Hitler Youth compulsory or voluntary? In 1936 the law which I have already mentioned concerning the H.J. was issued which made the German youth members of the Hitler. The directives, the executive orders, in connection with that law were only issued in the fall of 1939. Only during th e war, in May 1940, within the Reich Youth Leadership, the thought of the carrying out of a German youth draft was considered, and discussed and expressed publicly. time when I was at the front, stated in a public meeting -- I believe at Frankfurt in 1940 - that. now 97 per cent of the youngest age group of youth have volunteered for the Hitler Youth and that it became necessary to draft the remaining three per cent.
DR: SAUTER: In that connection, Mr. President, may I point out two documents of the Document Book Schirach. That is Numbre 51.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not quite understand what the defendant said.
He said that the membership was voluntary until 1936, that the H.J. Law was then passed, and something to the effect that the execution of the law was not published until 1939. Was that what he said?
DR. SAUTER: Yes, thatis correct. Until 1936 -- if I may explain that, Mr. President -- membership in the Hitler Youth was absolutely voluntary. Then in 1936 the J. J. Law was issued, which stated that boys and girls had to go to the Hitler Youth, but the directives, the executive directives, were issued by the defendant only in 1939, so thatpractically, until 1939, the membership was still a voluntary one.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that right, defendant?
THE WITNESS: That is right.
DR. SAUTER: And these facts which I have just presented, Mr. President, can also be seen from two documents of theDocument Book Schirach, Number 51, on page 91, and Number 52 on page 92. On the latter -
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Sauter, I accept it from you and from the defendant. I only wanted to understand it. You can go on.
DR. SAUTER: On the second document, mention is also made of the 97 per cent which the defendant has said had voluntarily joined the H.J., so that now there were only three per cent missing. BY DR. SAUTER: parents was to the question of whether the children should join the H.J. or not? What did the parents say? children joined the H. J. Whenever I broadcast a speech to the parents or to youth, it occurred that hundreds of parents sent me letters. Among these letters frequently there were some in which the parents stated their opposition to the H.J., and I always considered that as a proof of the confidence which I enjoyed with the parents. I should like to say that never, when parents tried to restrain their children from joining, have I exerted any compulsion or put them under any pressure of any kind. That would have destroyed the confidence of the parents of Germany. That con fidence was the basis of my entire educational work.
that any youth organization can be established with compulsion on youth and can be successful, that that concept is absolutely wrong. at a disadvantage for that reason? vantage in that they could not take part in our camping and our competitions. They were outsiders of the youth life, and there was a danger that they would become hypochondriacs. the H. J. was a prerequisite to working in those professions?
Q What were the professions?
A For instance, the profession of teacher. It is quite clear that a teacher can not educate youth unless he himself knows the ways of life of that youth, and so we demanded that the young teachers had to have gone through the H. J. The junior teacher had to be familiar with the ways of life of the students who were under his supervision.
membership in the HJ was not a pre-requisite for admission; or was it?
A I could not answer that is detail. I believe that thediscussion about that is unnecessary, because the entire youth was in the Hitler Youth. cating the Fuehrer principle. Therefore, I ask you, was that Fuehrer principle also in the HJ, and in what form was it carried out in the HJ? and I should like to remind you of that kind of Fuehrer principle about which we knew here from testimony.
A Of course, the HJ was founded on the Fuehrer principle; only the entire form of leadership of youth was basically different from that of other national socialist organizations. For instance, we had the custom in youth leadership to discuss all questions frankly and openly in our meetings in the district. There were lively debates. I myself educated my assistants in discipline. Of course, once we had discussed a measure and debated a measure and I had given an order or directive, that ended the debate. years of working together and serving the same purpose, had become a unity of many thousands. They had become friends. It is evident that in a group of that kind the carrying out of orders and directives takes place in entirely differen ways from in a military organization or in any political organization.
A (interposing) May I just add one more thing? A leadership based on a natural authority such as we had in the yough organization is something which is not alien to youth at all. Such leadership with youth never became dictatorshi And in that connection, the fact has been pointed out that your HJ was very uniformed. Is that correct? And why did the HJ wear uniforms? there are documents to illustrate it, I considered the uniform of the HJ always as a "dressed-up" comradeship. The uniform was the symbol of a community without classes. The young worker, the worker's boy, were the same garb that theson of the university professor was wearing. The girl from the wealthy family were the same garb as the child of the day laborer.
Hence the uniform. This uniform did not have a military significance at all.
Dr. SAUTER: In that connection, Mr. President, May I ask you to take judi cial notice of the document Schirach No 55-A and 117, where in writing by the defendant von Schirach the same trends of thought were expressed, in fact, many years ago, which he is expressing today.
I should like to ask also, Mr. President, for permission to correct an error in Document 55, an page 98, in a quotation from a book by Schirach. There it says, "Even the son of the millionaire has no more power --"
I do not know whether you have found the passage. It is on page 77 of the book by Dr. Schirach, Page 98 of the Document Book. There is a quotation near the botton of the page under the heading "Page 77" "Even the son of the millionaire has no more power that the son of the unemployed person."
The ward "Power" corresponding to the German word "Macht" is in error, and should be the word "Dress" corresponding to the German word "Tracht"; so I ask now to have the word "Macht", "power" changed to the word "Tracht", "dress" BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, I shall then continue with the interrogation. You have been accused of using influence psychologically and pedagogically which you had during the war. You have been accused of participating in a conspiracy for that purpose, a conspiracy by which the National Socialist movement acquired the total power in Germany, and finally planned and carried out agressive war.
What can you say about that?
A. I did not participate in any conspiracy. I did not consider it participation in any conspiracy; I cannot consider it participation in any conspiracy if I joined the National Socialist Party. The program of that party had been approved and published. The party was admitted to election. Neither Hitler nor any of his assistants ever said that he wanted to assume power by a coup d'etat. Again and again in public he stated not once but a hundred times, "I want to overcome that parliamentary system by legal means, because it is bringing us deeper and deeper into misery". told my 60,000 constituents similar things in electoral campaigns. There was nothing which would prove the fact of conspiracy, nothing which was discussed behind closed doors. Whatever we wanted we admitted frankly before the nation. And as far as newsprint is read around the globe, anybody abroad could have been informed about our aims and purposes. take part in any conference or issuing of orders which would indicate preparations for an aggressive war. I believe that could be seen from the proceedings in this court up to now. believe that there existed a conspiracy. The thought of conspiracy is in contradiction to the idea of dictatorship. A dictatorship does not conspire; a dictotorship commands.
Q. Witness, what did the leadership of the Hitler Youth do to prepare youth for the war and to train youth for war-like purposes?
A. Before I answer that question, I believe I have to explain briefly the difference between military training and pre-military education.
Military training, in my opinion, is all training with weapons or war, and all training which is conducted by military personnel, with and without weapons; that is to say, by officers. all education which comes before the time of military service. In special casis it is a special preparation for military service. We restricted such drill as being contrary to the principles of youth. I am not giving my own opinion here, but the opinion of thousands of my assistants.
in Germany before, were rejected by me; and the continuation of such Wehrjugend work, defense youth group work, within the HJ, was rejected by me. I had always been strongly opposed to playing soldier in the youth organization. With all my high esteem for the profession of an officer, I still do not consider an officer capable of leading youth because always, in some form or other, he will apply the tone of the drill field and the forms of military leadership to youth. That is the reason why I did not have any officers as my assistants in the Hitler Youth. I was criticized by the armed forces repeatedly. I should like to stress that that did not come from the High Command; Field Marshal Keitel, especially, had a great deal of understanding for my ideas. However, at any rate, within the armed forces, here and there, criticism was heard against my general attitude of opposition to having officers used as leaders of a youth organization. The principle of youth leading youth had never been perpetrated in Germany. prepared for the war and trained in a military sense, I have to say, in conclusion, that the center of gravity of youth work in Germany was the training for occupations, camping, and competition in sports. The physical training, which perhaps in some way could be considered a preparation for military service, was only a very small part and took up a very small part of our time. Hitler Youth, for instance, the district of Hessen Nassau. A Gebiet is about the same as a Gau. Of its own funds, in 1939, it spent, for trips and camps, nine-twentieths; for cultural work, three-twentieths; for Land Dienst, the Land Service, and other tasks, and for the welfare offices, five-twentieths. The same area spent, in 1944 -- that is, one year before the end of the war -- for cultural work, four-twentieths; for sports and defense training, five-twentieths; for Land Dienst, Land Service, and other tasks, six-twentieths; and for the evacuation of youths to the country, five-twentieths.
area, in the same district, in the time from 1936 until 1943, spent nothing, or had no expense for racial-political education. In 1944, for racial-political education, 20 marks were spent and are listed in that budget for the acquisition of a picture book about hereditary and venereal diseases. However, in that same district, in one single town, during the same time, 200,000 marks of subsidies were given to get youth into the theatres. answered by me without mentioning small caliber ranges. Small caliber firing was a sport among the German youth. It was carried out according to international rules of sport shooting. Small caliber shooting, according to Article 177 of the Treaty of Versailles, was not prohibited. It says, in that article of the treaty, verbatim, that in hunting organizations and sport organizations, it is prohibited to train their members in the use of war weapons. The smallcaliber rifle, however, is not a war weapon. For our sport shooting we used a rifle like the American 22-caliber. It was used with the Flobersche, short or long, 22 caliber. and other so-called pre-military training can be found in a handbook which has the title, "HJ in the Service". That book was printed and published, and it was sold not only in Germany, but also abroad. that book, which was in an educational pamphlet, number 109. With the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to quote briefly, from this educational pamphlet, what was said about that book. I quote in English:
"It cannot fairly be said to be in essence a more militaristic work than any thoroughgoing, exhaustice, and comprehensive manual of boy scout training would be. Some 40 pages are, to be sure, devoted to the theory and practice of shooting small caliber rifle and air run, but there is nothing in them to which exception can reasonably be taken, and the worst that one can say of them is that they may be confidently recommended to the notice of any boy scout wishing to qualify for his marksmanship badge."
For the intellectual attitude of youth. I can only say that it was definitely not militaristic.
Q. We will probably refer to that later with a specific question. and trained with those small caliber rifles. Was the Hitler Youth also trained with infantry rigles, or machine guns, or machine pistols?
A. Principally not.
Q. Not at all?
A. Not a single German boy, until the war, had been trained with a war weapon, a military weapon. That is, an infantry rifle, a machine gun, on an infantry gun or hand grenade.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in the document book Schirach are several documents which will show what the attitude of the defendant von Schirach was concerning the question of military or pre-military education of youth, and that it was exactly the same as he has stated it today, particularly, that he was opposed to any military drill and all such things.
These are documents in the document book Schirach: 55, 122, 123, 127, 127-a, 128, and 131. I ask you to take judicial notice of these documents. They contain, on the whole, the same statements which von Schirach has brief made. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Herr von Schirach, in connection with the so-called military train ing of youth, I should like to know the following. What was the influence of the SA on the training and education of youth?
A. None at all. The SA tried to have an influence on the education and training of youth.
A. None at all. The SA tried to have an influence on the education and training of youth.
Q. In what way?
A. That was in January of 1939. At that time I was at Dresden, where I arranged a performance which presented modern gymnastics for girls. While I was at that performance, a newspaper was shown to me which carried a decree by Hitler, according to which the two oldest age groups of the Hitler Youth had to receive pro-military training from the SA. I protested against that at once and, after my return to Berlin, I succeeded -- not in having the decree withdrawn; that could not be done, for reasons of prestige, because Hitler's name was under it. However, it was put out of force, so far as the youth were concerned.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that incident is manifested in the document from the Document Book Schirach No. 132. That is a statement from "Das Archiv", a semi-official news periodical. I should like to refer to that with respect to the question of training in shooting. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. I should like to put the question to the Defendant, what was the proportion between the training in shooting and the entire training of the H.J.? Was it a very essential part of the essential part?
A. Unfortunately, I do not have the documentary material here which would enable me to answer that in detail; but at any rate, it was not an essential part of the training within the H.J.
Q. That marksmanship training, did it go any further, according to your experiences and observations, than the marksmanship training of youth in other nations?
A. The marksmanship training of youth in other nations went much farther, much beyond that which we did in Germany.
Q. Do you know that from your own observation?
A. I know that from many of my assistants who have studied continuously the training in other countries, and I know about it from my own experience.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think that is relevant, the fact that other nations trained in marksmanship? I am not sure it's true either, but anyhow, it is not relevant. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Then I come to another question, Witness. The prosecution asserted that thousands of boys were trained militarily by the H.J. in the fields of naval aviation and armored troops, and that over seven thousand teachers train-ed over a million Hitler Youths in rifle marksmanship. That is the quotation from the prosecution which refers to some official statement of the year 1938. I should like to have you state your position concerning the question of the special units of the H.J.
A. Theprosecution refers, if I am not mistaken, to a speech which Hitler made. Just how Hitler come to the figures concerning the training I could not say; I do not know. I can only speak about the training in the special units and say the following, which I can prove with documents: