A. At that time I wasn't State Secretary and I had no political function, so that details aren't exactly known to me from that period, but today I have the impression that he took on that position aftern the Italians had occupied Albania. He, himself, told me later on that at that time the danger did exist, that the Italians would advance fruther into the Balkans, causing a possible conflict with Turkey, as a result of which world peace could have been endangered. For that reason, he said he decided at the time to accept that position but which day that was exactly, I cannot today tell you.
Q What can you say, generally speaking, about von Papen's attitude?
active to preserve peace by every means. He certainly considered that it would be the worst disaster for Germany and the world if war were to break out.
Q Were von Papen's efforts during the war towards establishing peace, with the aim of foregoing any annexations no matter what the military situation was, and reestablishing the sovereignty of occupied territories? In other words, was he working for a reasonable settlement for the achieving of a bearable status for all European states? working for the reestablishment of peace and for the reestablishment of full sovereignty for all countries, and he always wanted to avoid any interferences or offenses or material damage being inflicted on any other countries.
Q Was that attitude of von Papen's prevalent even at the time of the greatest German military successes?
Q Were these continuous personal efforts of von Papen's to establish peace held against him by Hitler, and was he the uncomfortable outsider in that connection? I do know that generally speaking Papen was critized by Hitler and other persons as a man who was following, shall we say, weak lines. ible as long as Hitler and the Party were in power in Germany, and that the necessary credit for negotiating with foreign countries was therefore lacking. to von Papen about the whole subject, and thoroughly, since at that time I had just become State Secretary. At that time he voiced the opinion which you have just mentioned and he stated it very clearly. He said that he was quite clear about the fact that with Hitler and the methods which were being employed, no peace could be achieved with foreign countries.
Q And my last question, Witness: The Indictment accuses von Papen of being an unscrupulous opportunist. You, Witness, know the accused from reports and from the official contact the defendant had with your department over an innumerable number of years. Did you, on the strength of that knowledge, gather the impression that this description, this characterization, of von Papen is correct, or can you say, on the strength of these reports and this contact, that von Papen has appeared to you as a man who always tells the truth, even when that truth can be quite uncomfortable to his superiors, and even when the voicing of that truth can lead to personal danger for him?
A I certainly do say that is so. I think the best evidence of it is that von Papen was eventually eliminated from the position of Vice Chancellor and had to leave his position in the government, that he became a private person, and that only when the emergency was worst was he consulted. In my opinion, von Papen only placed himself at the disposal of the Germans because he was of the opinion that, "I have still got a certain amount of duty; I am a good Catholic and I am representing a direction which is against all inhumane touches, and I must therefore use my personal weight against any influence from that direction." Hitler and Papen, but from my liaison officer with Hitler I often heard that von Papen, in his smooth way, often told Hitler a number a things which nobody else could have told him. I believe that through his manner he prevented quite a number of things, at least during a certain period. BY DR. NELTE: (Counsel for the defendant Keitel) terrible bombing attack on Dresden, intended to issue an order according to which thousands of prisoners of war should be killed as a reprisal. recollect it correctly, namely that all you have said about this matter is information from, or based on information from Herr von Ribbentrop?
Q What do you know from your own personal knowledge?
man to Hitler called me on the telephone and told me that Goebbels had proposed to Hitler that 10,000 or more British and American prisoners of war should be shot as a reprisal, and that Hitler was prepared to follow that suggestion. I immediately reported it to von Ribbentrop, and he went there at once and told me after half an hour that the order had been withdrawn.
that connection at all.
Q You don't know, therefore, who was theoriginatore of that order?
Q Or who suggested it? the information which I received.
Q Through von Ribbentrop, do you mean?
Q In other words, Herr Hewel?
Q And you know nothing about any participation of military men?
A Nothing at all; nothing at all. BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and OKW):
Q Witness, I have only one question. Did you, as State Secretary, or did the Foreign Office consult the OKW or the Supreme Command of the Navy and did you inform them about current matters?
DR. LATERNSER: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the British prosecution wish to cross examine? BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE: against the persecution of the churches, was against the persecution of Jews, and did not know what was going on in the concentration camps. You have told us that he was not a typical Nazi. What are the qualities of a typical Nazi? fanatically with all the doctrines of National Socialism and recognizes them. Von Ribbentrop, as I said, followed Hitler personally, but as far as the entire prospect of ideas was concerned, he knew comparatively little, unusually little, and never concerned himself With it.
He never spoke in meetings, never participated in large rallies, and therefore knew extremely little about the people and the feelings and atmosphere connected with them. churches?
A I didn't understand that question.
Q I will repeat it. By a typical Nazi, do you mean a man who was engaged in persecution of the churches? and didn't state any of his personal opinions in connection with that affair. extermination of Jews?
A That I wouldn't like to say either. That was limited to a certain circle of people. A large number of fanatics knew nothing about those atrocities and cruelties and would have condemned them had they been properly informed of them.
Q I understand you to say that you knew nothing of them yourself. Is that so?
A That I did not know anything? papers and particularly since I had contact with the opposition I have heard about a number of matters connected with concentration camps. In all those cases, as far as I was capable of doing so, I intervened. But regarding the things which I have heard now here, I knew nothing at all.
Q Now, I want to ask you about another matter. You have told us that Ribbentrop had no responsibility in the occupied territories. Your words were that the Foreign Office lost responsibility at that moment at which the German bayonet crossed the frontier. Is that right? frontier the Foreign Office lost the sole right to negotiate with foreign governments everywhere. That over and above that, in most countries, the Foreign Office did not have the right to carry out diplomatic observations and that it no longer had any competency to do so. That applied particularly to Norway and the Eastern territories. there and that direct relations with occupied territories were withdrawn, is that right? longer had the sole right to negotiate with governments, since now there was either a civil administration in those countries or a military government. There were field command departments and military administrations and now those departments on their own approached foreign governments and their executive organs in all the countries concerned. Consequently you cannot say anymore that the Foreign Office had the sole right to negotiate with those governments. But in countries like Norway and the East we had no officials of ours at all and Hitler had issued the order that as far as the other countries were concerned, namely Holland, Belgium and so on and so forth, we would have to withdraw our observers too. We did not do so, however. Ribbentrop, did you not?
Secret State Police by the impounding of politically important documents and securing and seizure of public property; further of private and above all Jewish artistic property on the basis of instructions especially given for the matter. Isn't that right? nothing to do with political affairs. But, Mr. Prosecutor, if I understood your question right, then you are of the opinion that the Secret State Police and the German executive organs in France were under our jurisdiction. That is quite incorrect.
Q You are not answering the question. I asked you if the Minister Abetz had not got those duties. persecutions. No orders of that kind went through myhands.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: I ask the witness to be shown document 3614PS. February.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the PS number?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: It is 3614-PS.
(witness handed document.) BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE: to the Chief of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (OKW). It reads:
"The Fuehrer has appointed Ambassador the former Minister Abetz and after my report has decreed as follows:
"1. Ambassador Abetz has the following tasks in France:--" witness, reads:
"Advising the Secret Field Police and the Secret State Police by the impounding of politically important documents.
"7. Securing and seizure of public property; further of private and above all Jewish artistic property on the basis of instructions specially given for the matter."
Then the concluding paragraphs:
"The Fuehrer has hereby expressly ordered that Ambassador Abetz is exclusively responsible for the handling of all political questions in occupied and unoccupied France. Insofar as his functions should touch military interests, Ambassador Abetz will act only in agreement with the military Commander in France.
"Ambassador Abetz is attached to the Military Commander in France as his Commissioner. His seat remains Paris as heretofore. He receives instructions for his tasks from me and is responsible exclusively to me on these matters.
"(Signed) Ribbentrop".
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Phillimore, the Tribunal would like to know why this witness told them that Ambassador Abetz did not have the task of confiscating property. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Why did you say that? prohibition for him to get mixed up in French foreign affairs. Therefore, he could only address the French Government and the French Government could carry out by means of their executive officials something which would represent an action on the part of the French Government but never a confiscation carried out by Abetz. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE:
Q That is not an answer to the question. The question is why, when you were asked whether Abetz had the task of advising the Secret Field police and the Secret State police by the impounding of politically important documents, did you say no? State Secretary until May 1943 and that is an order from August, 1940. But here we are concerned merely with a directive addressed to Ambassador Abetz.
Q At this time you were Ribbentrop's personal adjutant, were you not?
A I was adjutant, but not political secretary. I was -
Q You were adjutant? technical matters and at that time I had never presented him one single political report. But I should remark, if I may, on this occasion that this document here is an instruction addressed to Ambassador Abetz and that instruction was put out of date by the actual conditions. acting in political matters?
AAmbassador Abetz was ambassador until May, 1945. Therefore, from 1943 to 1945 I had continuous correspondence with him and during that time Ambassador Abetz continually fought against those measures which were taken by the Gestapo and carried through by them. That was a bitter struggle and he was personally threatened in a number of matters. You can talk about consultations but whether people obeyed him Since he had no powers, that is another question altogether.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you kindly observe the light in front of you. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE: only applies after 1943? 1943.
Q Now, I want to turn to the question of Jews. You have told us that you and Ribbentrop by adopting a policy of delay prevented the holding of the Anti-Jewish Congress in 1944, is that right? Jews?
Q And so was the defendant Ribbentrop?
Q I want you to look at document 3319-PS.
(Witness handed the document).
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, that is a new document. It will be G.B. 287. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE: English. Jewish action in foreign countries. It is marked at the bottom of page 4.
Q. Will you look at page 4, marked in a black square at the bottom of the page you see a letter dated the 28th of April 1944, "Subject: Anti-Jewish action in foreign countries", and it's addressed to practically every German legation and mission abroad.
A. Yes.
Q. Turn to page 10. You will see that it purports to be signed by you; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the letter. Refer to the letter. I will read you the first paragraph to refresh your memory.
"The Reich Foreign Minister --"
A. Yes.
Q. "-- has ordered the creation of the information department 14, antiJewish action abroad, under the leadership of the Envoy, I.K. Schleier. Its task is to deepen and to strengthen the anti-Jewish information in foreign countries. This will be done by the collection of all experts of the departments and working units of the Foreign Office who are interested and take part in the anti-Jewish information in foreign countries. It will also be done in close cooperation with all offices which are engaged with anti-Jewish work but are outside the foreign office and with German missions in Europe." Office, and then one permanent representative of the Reich Main Security Office, that's Himmler's office, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And one representative of the office of Reichsleiter Rosenberg, that department just up above Inland 2, that is the Foreign Office which liaised with the SS, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time the chief was a man called Wagner and the assistant chief von Tadl?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you still say that you were against the policy of persecution of the Jews?
A. Yes, I still maintain that. I also say, as I said during earlier interrogations, that even the holding of an anti-Jewish congress in its effect would not mean an action against the Jews because what was happening in Germany was all taking place under the seal of secrecy and nobody was informed in any way. The Jews idsappeared. But if one had held a national congress, then one would have been forced to bring up the question: In the first place, where have those Jews gone to? What on earth is happening to them?
Q. Is the point this, that you wanted to put off an anti-Jewish congress because that would be known to the world, but you were quite prepared to set up an organization in the Foreign Office?
A. No. We have to separate two completely different problems here. Problem 1 is that there were departments in Germany carrying out anti-Jewish actions and pursuing them in those organizations that were spreading abroad and acted there without knowledge of the Foreign Office and without any participation and took people away from those foreign countries. Consequently, an improvement and a policy within reasonable limits and channels could only take place if some German department assumed or had assumed responsibility. We heard nothing about these matters. We heard about that from complaints from foreign officials of ours but we had no means of controlling these things. If I had -
Q. Was this set up to control the anti-Jewish policy, this department?
A. Apparently we are discussing two different matters today. The antiJewish congress had been ordered and it had been ordered that Rosenberg -
THE PRESIDENT: You are not answering the question. The question was: Was this organization, referred to in this letter, set up to control the organization of anti-Jewish work abroad? That is the question. Can you not answer that "yes" or "no"?
A. A general control had not been exercised by the Foreign Office since all anti-Jewish questions were principally dealt with in Rosenberg's office.
Q. What was the purpose of this organization of the Foreign Office?
A. By order from Hitler we had to draw together all German departments and form an archive so as to collect the entire material there. We were anxious
Q. And this was ordered by Ribbentrop, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. As set out in your letter?
A. Yes. And we wanted to gather an impression as to what was actually happening to Jews, and so we kept ourselves to people who also took different departments.
Q. But I will show you in a minute what was actually happening and in your own files, but I just want to nut this to you: cause you did not want the world to know you had not the slightest objection to setting up an anti-Jewish organization in Germany.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, that is on page 23 of the English text. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE:
Q. You will see there a letter from Rosenberg's office to the Foreign Office, signed by Brauetigam. That is on page 32 of the German text. It is marked at the bottom of the page "32".
Brauetigam was your liaison officer with Rosenberg, wasn't he, witness? Was Brauetigam your liaison officer in Rosenberg's office?
A. Brauetigam was, I think, in 1941 employed in the Foreign Office, yes, but in 1941, since he had previously been employed in the Foreign Office on eastern problems, he had been handed over and had now become -
Q. Very well. And you will see that there he is referring to a conference with Oberstrumbannfuehrer Eichmann, that is the chief of the Jewish section of the Gestapo, and a Dr. Wetzel, and he sends you a copy of an agreement made at Tigina, Rumania, on the 30th of August 1941 with the request for acknowledgement.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, there seems to be an error here. This letter is dated March 11, 1942, and I became State Secretary in May, '43, and know nothing about this matter therefore, but I should like to remark -
Q. You just listen and wait until you are aksed a question. We shall get on faster if you just listen to the letter. I point out especially No. 7 of the agreements.
Now, that enclosed an agreement made between the German and Rumanian General Staff, and, if you will look at paragraph 7, on page 38 of the German text, page 27 of the English, this was the agreement they made:
"Deportation of Jews from Transnistria. Deportation of Jews across the Bug is not possible at present. They must, therefore, be collected in concentration camps and set to work until a deportation to the east is possible after the end of operations."
And then there's a note on the file on the next page of the German, still on page 27 of the English:
"According to information today from director General Lecca, 110,000 Hews are being evacuated from Bukovina and Bessarabia into two forests in the Bug River Area. As far as he could learn, this action is based upon an order issued by Marshal Antonescu. Purpose of the action is the liquidation of these Jews." the Foreign Office, would have reached the defendant Ribbentrop?
A. Well, I see this document and this agreement for the first time.
Q. Yes. Would you answer the question. Do you doubt that that letter and that agreement enclosed with it would have been shown to the defendant Ribbentrop?
A. At that time there was an Undersecretary of State in the Foreign Office who was acting extremely independently. Against that man I fought a bitter battle, although I wasn't really entitled to that sort of action, but he wanted to introduce national socialist methods in our office. Whether he submitted this matter to Ribbentrop or not I cannot decide.
Q. Very well. We come to a time when you were the Secretary of State. Would you look at page 31 of the German text, page 20 of the English.
THE PRESIDENT: What do the words that follow the passage you have just read mean on page 27? "Bucharest, October 17, 1941 (Signature illegible)", and then "To be discussed with Vice Minister President Antonescu. Confidential, Bucharest, October 16, 1943"?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is merely typed "Bucharest, October 17, 1943" and then follows the next letter. The previous part is a note on the file.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: It is a note on the German Legation file on Bucharest.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: I have not troubled the Tribunal with the following letters. They deal with the earlier date on the expulsion of Jews from firms owned by citizens of the German Reich. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE:
Q. Now would you look at page 3 of the German, page 20 of the English. You will see there a document sent --
THE PRESIDENT: When you started that document you didn't give the date in full. The year there appears to be 1944, doesn't it?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: It is 1942, I think, My Lord,
THE PRESIDENT: It should be April 28, 1942? Is the date at the head of the document?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, the letter I read was dated March 1942, and marked with a foreign office stamp, "Received 13th of March" -
THE PRESIDENT: I am speaking of the whole document, page 1 of the document.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is a file, one of those rather inconvenient documents, a file, and it starts with the earliest date at the botton and then works up to 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Then the part you read first -
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: That was 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. What page are you going to now?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: Page 20 now, My Lord. told us, assistant in the Department Inland II, to the German Legation in Bucharest. It is dated the 12th of October, 1943, and it is stamped as received on the 18th of October. And he encloses a letter signed by Mueller in the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, to all German police authorities abroad. You will see that it goes to the Commander of the Security Police in Prague, the Hague, Paris, Brussels, Metz, Strasbourg, Luxembourg, Cracow, Kiev Smolensk and so on. October, 1943. That is after you had become Secretary of States, isnt' it ?
Q You were appointed in April? ship in the sphere of German power.
"In agreement with the Foreign Office, all Jews who remain in the sphere of German power after the end of the socalled home-bringing, and who have the citizenship of the following countries might now be included in the evacuati on measures;
"Italy, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Swede, Finlande, Hungary Roumania, Turkey.
" Since the evacuation of these Jews to the East cannot yet take place at the present time, a temporary stay is provided in the concentration camp Buchenwald for male Jews over fourteen years of age and in the concen tration camp Ravensbrueck for Jewesses as well as children.
The necessary measures are to be carried out on the following dates: (a) for Jews with citizenship, immediately; (b) for Jews with Turkish citizenship, on the 20th of October 1943; (c) for Jews with citizenship of other contries mentioned above, on the 10th of October 1943.
"A special application for protective custody is not requested for the transfer to the concentration camp, but concentration camp headquarters are to be notified that the transfer to the concentration camp is taking place in the frame of the evacuation measures."
And then there are arrangements about baggage. And if you look at 31-E, you will see at the foot of page 22, on the English, that that had been signed bu Mueller and then was signed again by a clerk of Himmler's office. And then on the next page of the English, still on 31-E of the German, Himmler's office sends it to the Foreign Office, to von Tadden, on the 2nd of October.
Now, did you not see that document when it got to the Foreign Office?
Q You were then the Secretary of the State?
A Yes, centainly. This is obviously a measure ordered by another department, and within Germany the Foreign Office had no executive powers or possibilities. Consequently -
A That was sent to us, this story for our information, and it wasn't put before me -- this story.
Q You had a department liasing with you, a Mr. von Jadden. Was he not a competent official?
A The exact contents of this story I don't even know now, because I didn't have time to read it fully, but the only think I can imagine with reference to this whole matter is this: The question was discussed for some considerable time, whether the Jews who were in Germany could be returned to their home countries, This, I think, is what we are concerned with -
Q Either you know or don't know the answer to my question; not your imagination. I asked you whether von Tadden was a competent official.
A I haven't seen this document -
Q You are not answering the question. Was von Tadden a competent official?
Q Yes, knew his job. And do you not think that as Secretary of the State he ought to have shown you this document? negociated elsewhere, in other departments, and as far as the anti-Jewish action was concerned I was completely excluded and the instructions for foreign organizations never went through me as far as Jewish actions were concerned. I said yesterday during my statement that these matters were negociated immediately on the highest level and that the Foreign Office wasn't even informed about them afterwards, orders in these matters.
Q This is a document you were informed about?
I haven't seen it.
Q. And if you just look again at the letter, you notice how Mueller's instructions start. He begins, "In agreement with the Foreign Office"-
A. Where does it say so? Unfortunately I haven't found it.
Q. At the start of the letter. The subject is the treatment of Jews with foreign citizenship in the sphere of German power. And then he begins, "In agreement with the foreign Office."
Does that just mean in agreement with Mr. von Kadden?
A. I assume that this type of thing was handled by the experts concerned, since it is a principal matter and was put directly before von Ribbentrop. May I ask to put the question to him, whether he knows this matter or not? I haven't seen it.
Q. This is a matter of such importance that it could not have been agreed with Foreign Office without Ribbentrop being consulted, isn't that the case?
A. In my opinion, I would never have concluded this matter if it had been put before me. I am of the opinion it had to be put before von Ribbentrop
Q. And, of course, von Ribbentrop was one of the most ruthless persecutors of Jews of any, wasn't he?
A. That is not correct.
Q. I am going to just read you a short passage from the conference between the Fuehrer, Ribbentrop and the Hungarian Regent, Horthy. This is D-736, which was put in as GB-283, by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe, to the Defendant Goering. This was a meeting at Klecsheim Castle on the morning of the 17th of April, 1943. And you see the minutes are signed by Schmidt.
A. Yes.
Q. The question of Jews was raised. The Fuehrer replied that it was the fault of the Jews who considered hording and profiteering as their main sphere of activity, even during a world war, in exactly the same way as in England they were sentenced for rationing offenses and which like now chiefly concern Jews. To Horthy's counter-question as to what he should do with the Jews, now that he had deprived them of almost all possibilities of livelihood, he cou not kill them off, the Reich Foreign Minister declared that the Jews must either be exterminated or taken to concentration camps.