Q I want you to look at document 3319-PS.
(Witness handed the document).
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, that is a new document. It will be G.B. 287. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE: English. Jewish action in foreign countries. It is marked at the bottom of page 4.
Q. Will you look at page 4, marked in a black square at the bottom of the page you see a letter dated the 28th of April 1944, "Subject: Anti-Jewish action in foreign countries", and it's addressed to practically every German legation and mission abroad.
A. Yes.
Q. Turn to page 10. You will see that it purports to be signed by you; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the letter. Refer to the letter. I will read you the first paragraph to refresh your memory.
"The Reich Foreign Minister --"
A. Yes.
Q. "-- has ordered the creation of the information department 14, antiJewish action abroad, under the leadership of the Envoy, I.K. Schleier. Its task is to deepen and to strengthen the anti-Jewish information in foreign countries. This will be done by the collection of all experts of the departments and working units of the Foreign Office who are interested and take part in the anti-Jewish information in foreign countries. It will also be done in close cooperation with all offices which are engaged with anti-Jewish work but are outside the foreign office and with German missions in Europe." Office, and then one permanent representative of the Reich Main Security Office, that's Himmler's office, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And one representative of the office of Reichsleiter Rosenberg, that department just up above Inland 2, that is the Foreign Office which liaised with the SS, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time the chief was a man called Wagner and the assistant chief von Tadl?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you still say that you were against the policy of persecution of the Jews?
A. Yes, I still maintain that. I also say, as I said during earlier interrogations, that even the holding of an anti-Jewish congress in its effect would not mean an action against the Jews because what was happening in Germany was all taking place under the seal of secrecy and nobody was informed in any way. The Jews idsappeared. But if one had held a national congress, then one would have been forced to bring up the question: In the first place, where have those Jews gone to? What on earth is happening to them?
Q. Is the point this, that you wanted to put off an anti-Jewish congress because that would be known to the world, but you were quite prepared to set up an organization in the Foreign Office?
A. No. We have to separate two completely different problems here. Problem 1 is that there were departments in Germany carrying out anti-Jewish actions and pursuing them in those organizations that were spreading abroad and acted there without knowledge of the Foreign Office and without any participation and took people away from those foreign countries. Consequently, an improvement and a policy within reasonable limits and channels could only take place if some German department assumed or had assumed responsibility. We heard nothing about these matters. We heard about that from complaints from foreign officials of ours but we had no means of controlling these things. If I had -
Q. Was this set up to control the anti-Jewish policy, this department?
A. Apparently we are discussing two different matters today. The antiJewish congress had been ordered and it had been ordered that Rosenberg -
THE PRESIDENT: You are not answering the question. The question was: Was this organization, referred to in this letter, set up to control the organization of anti-Jewish work abroad? That is the question. Can you not answer that "yes" or "no"?
A. A general control had not been exercised by the Foreign Office since all anti-Jewish questions were principally dealt with in Rosenberg's office.
Q. What was the purpose of this organization of the Foreign Office?
A. By order from Hitler we had to draw together all German departments and form an archive so as to collect the entire material there. We were anxious
Q. And this was ordered by Ribbentrop, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. As set out in your letter?
A. Yes. And we wanted to gather an impression as to what was actually happening to Jews, and so we kept ourselves to people who also took different departments.
Q. But I will show you in a minute what was actually happening and in your own files, but I just want to nut this to you: cause you did not want the world to know you had not the slightest objection to setting up an anti-Jewish organization in Germany.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, that is on page 23 of the English text. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE:
Q. You will see there a letter from Rosenberg's office to the Foreign Office, signed by Brauetigam. That is on page 32 of the German text. It is marked at the bottom of the page "32".
Brauetigam was your liaison officer with Rosenberg, wasn't he, witness? Was Brauetigam your liaison officer in Rosenberg's office?
A. Brauetigam was, I think, in 1941 employed in the Foreign Office, yes, but in 1941, since he had previously been employed in the Foreign Office on eastern problems, he had been handed over and had now become -
Q. Very well. And you will see that there he is referring to a conference with Oberstrumbannfuehrer Eichmann, that is the chief of the Jewish section of the Gestapo, and a Dr. Wetzel, and he sends you a copy of an agreement made at Tigina, Rumania, on the 30th of August 1941 with the request for acknowledgement.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, there seems to be an error here. This letter is dated March 11, 1942, and I became State Secretary in May, '43, and know nothing about this matter therefore, but I should like to remark -
Q. You just listen and wait until you are aksed a question. We shall get on faster if you just listen to the letter. I point out especially No. 7 of the agreements.
Now, that enclosed an agreement made between the German and Rumanian General Staff, and, if you will look at paragraph 7, on page 38 of the German text, page 27 of the English, this was the agreement they made:
"Deportation of Jews from Transnistria. Deportation of Jews across the Bug is not possible at present. They must, therefore, be collected in concentration camps and set to work until a deportation to the east is possible after the end of operations."
And then there's a note on the file on the next page of the German, still on page 27 of the English:
"According to information today from director General Lecca, 110,000 Hews are being evacuated from Bukovina and Bessarabia into two forests in the Bug River Area. As far as he could learn, this action is based upon an order issued by Marshal Antonescu. Purpose of the action is the liquidation of these Jews." the Foreign Office, would have reached the defendant Ribbentrop?
A. Well, I see this document and this agreement for the first time.
Q. Yes. Would you answer the question. Do you doubt that that letter and that agreement enclosed with it would have been shown to the defendant Ribbentrop?
A. At that time there was an Undersecretary of State in the Foreign Office who was acting extremely independently. Against that man I fought a bitter battle, although I wasn't really entitled to that sort of action, but he wanted to introduce national socialist methods in our office. Whether he submitted this matter to Ribbentrop or not I cannot decide.
Q. Very well. We come to a time when you were the Secretary of State. Would you look at page 31 of the German text, page 20 of the English.
THE PRESIDENT: What do the words that follow the passage you have just read mean on page 27? "Bucharest, October 17, 1941 (Signature illegible)", and then "To be discussed with Vice Minister President Antonescu. Confidential, Bucharest, October 16, 1943"?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is merely typed "Bucharest, October 17, 1943" and then follows the next letter. The previous part is a note on the file.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: It is a note on the German Legation file on Bucharest.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: I have not troubled the Tribunal with the following letters. They deal with the earlier date on the expulsion of Jews from firms owned by citizens of the German Reich. BY COLONEL PHILLIMORE:
Q. Now would you look at page 3 of the German, page 20 of the English. You will see there a document sent --
THE PRESIDENT: When you started that document you didn't give the date in full. The year there appears to be 1944, doesn't it?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: It is 1942, I think, My Lord,
THE PRESIDENT: It should be April 28, 1942? Is the date at the head of the document?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, the letter I read was dated March 1942, and marked with a foreign office stamp, "Received 13th of March" -
THE PRESIDENT: I am speaking of the whole document, page 1 of the document.
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is a file, one of those rather inconvenient documents, a file, and it starts with the earliest date at the botton and then works up to 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Then the part you read first -
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: That was 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. What page are you going to now?
COLONEL PHILLIMORE: Page 20 now, My Lord. told us, assistant in the Department Inland II, to the German Legation in Bucharest. It is dated the 12th of October, 1943, and it is stamped as received on the 18th of October. And he encloses a letter signed by Mueller in the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, to all German police authorities abroad. You will see that it goes to the Commander of the Security Police in Prague, the Hague, Paris, Brussels, Metz, Strasbourg, Luxembourg, Cracow, Kiev Smolensk and so on. October, 1943. That is after you had become Secretary of States, isnt' it ?
Q You were appointed in April? ship in the sphere of German power.
"In agreement with the Foreign Office, all Jews who remain in the sphere of German power after the end of the socalled home-bringing, and who have the citizenship of the following countries might now be included in the evacuati on measures;
"Italy, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Swede, Finlande, Hungary Roumania, Turkey.
" Since the evacuation of these Jews to the East cannot yet take place at the present time, a temporary stay is provided in the concentration camp Buchenwald for male Jews over fourteen years of age and in the concen tration camp Ravensbrueck for Jewesses as well as children.
The necessary measures are to be carried out on the following dates: (a) for Jews with citizenship, immediately; (b) for Jews with Turkish citizenship, on the 20th of October 1943; (c) for Jews with citizenship of other contries mentioned above, on the 10th of October 1943.
"A special application for protective custody is not requested for the transfer to the concentration camp, but concentration camp headquarters are to be notified that the transfer to the concentration camp is taking place in the frame of the evacuation measures."
And then there are arrangements about baggage. And if you look at 31-E, you will see at the foot of page 22, on the English, that that had been signed bu Mueller and then was signed again by a clerk of Himmler's office. And then on the next page of the English, still on 31-E of the German, Himmler's office sends it to the Foreign Office, to von Tadden, on the 2nd of October.
Now, did you not see that document when it got to the Foreign Office?
Q You were then the Secretary of the State?
A Yes, centainly. This is obviously a measure ordered by another department, and within Germany the Foreign Office had no executive powers or possibilities. Consequently -
A That was sent to us, this story for our information, and it wasn't put before me -- this story.
Q You had a department liasing with you, a Mr. von Jadden. Was he not a competent official?
A The exact contents of this story I don't even know now, because I didn't have time to read it fully, but the only think I can imagine with reference to this whole matter is this: The question was discussed for some considerable time, whether the Jews who were in Germany could be returned to their home countries, This, I think, is what we are concerned with -
Q Either you know or don't know the answer to my question; not your imagination. I asked you whether von Tadden was a competent official.
A I haven't seen this document -
Q You are not answering the question. Was von Tadden a competent official?
Q Yes, knew his job. And do you not think that as Secretary of the State he ought to have shown you this document? negociated elsewhere, in other departments, and as far as the anti-Jewish action was concerned I was completely excluded and the instructions for foreign organizations never went through me as far as Jewish actions were concerned. I said yesterday during my statement that these matters were negociated immediately on the highest level and that the Foreign Office wasn't even informed about them afterwards, orders in these matters.
Q This is a document you were informed about?
I haven't seen it.
Q. And if you just look again at the letter, you notice how Mueller's instructions start. He begins, "In agreement with the Foreign Office"-
A. Where does it say so? Unfortunately I haven't found it.
Q. At the start of the letter. The subject is the treatment of Jews with foreign citizenship in the sphere of German power. And then he begins, "In agreement with the foreign Office."
Does that just mean in agreement with Mr. von Kadden?
A. I assume that this type of thing was handled by the experts concerned, since it is a principal matter and was put directly before von Ribbentrop. May I ask to put the question to him, whether he knows this matter or not? I haven't seen it.
Q. This is a matter of such importance that it could not have been agreed with Foreign Office without Ribbentrop being consulted, isn't that the case?
A. In my opinion, I would never have concluded this matter if it had been put before me. I am of the opinion it had to be put before von Ribbentrop
Q. And, of course, von Ribbentrop was one of the most ruthless persecutors of Jews of any, wasn't he?
A. That is not correct.
Q. I am going to just read you a short passage from the conference between the Fuehrer, Ribbentrop and the Hungarian Regent, Horthy. This is D-736, which was put in as GB-283, by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe, to the Defendant Goering. This was a meeting at Klecsheim Castle on the morning of the 17th of April, 1943. And you see the minutes are signed by Schmidt.
A. Yes.
Q. The question of Jews was raised. The Fuehrer replied that it was the fault of the Jews who considered hording and profiteering as their main sphere of activity, even during a world war, in exactly the same way as in England they were sentenced for rationing offenses and which like now chiefly concern Jews. To Horthy's counter-question as to what he should do with the Jews, now that he had deprived them of almost all possibilities of livelihood, he cou not kill them off, the Reich Foreign Minister declared that the Jews must either be exterminated or taken to concentration camps.
There was no other possibility. And then you see the Fuehrer goes on to describe them as tuberculosis bacilli. ant Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?
A. I said yesterday already that von Ribbentrop whenever he was with Hitler -
Q. I am putting it to you now, today. You have now seen that document. Do you still say that Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?
A. I should like to make a distinction between the natural instincts of von Ribbentrop and what he waid when he was under Hitler's influence. I said yesterday that he was hypnotized by Hitler and then became his tool.
Q. Yes, became his tool. And from then on, he was prepared to do anything that Hitler wanted and was as violent a Nazi as anyone, isn't that right?
A. He has followed blindly the order given by Hitler.
Q. And to the extent of conniving at any and every atrocity, isn't that right?
A. Since he had no executive powers he personally could not commit any such cruelties.
(Colonel Phillimore withdrew from the lectern.)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other Chief Prosecutors want to crossexamine? BY COLONEL JOHN HARLAN AMEN (for the United States):
Q. You testified yesterday that you did not consider Ribbentrop a typical Nazi, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you consider Goering to be a typical Nazi?
A. Goering has made speeches before every type of meeting and has fought for the seizure of power, and consequently he had a completely different basis in the party from Ribbentrop.
Q. I think you can answer my question yes or no. We are trying to save time as much as possible.
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Do you consider Goering to be a typical Nazi according to the same standards you were using with Ribbentrop, yes or no?
A. That sort of question you cannot answer like that, with a yes or no. I am trying hard; every -
Q. You were asked about -
(A slight overlap in the sound channels.)
A. I can't understand; sorry.
Q. You answered it that way with respect to Ribbentrop, didn't you?
A. Goering was a personality of a peculiar type. I can't put him with; the same limits of general Nazis, as one is usually expressing -
Q. In other words, you don't know whether you think he is a typical Nazi or not, is that what you want the Tribunal to understand?
A. As to a typical Nazi, one understands the average Nazi, and Goering is a personality of a type all his own. As far as his habits are concerned, you can't compare him with the other Nazis, either.
Q. Well, are you acquainted with all of the gentlemen in the box there in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you tell me which of those individuals you consider to be a typical Nazi, according to the standards which you applied yesterday to Ribbentrop?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I don't want to interrupt your crossexamination, but want to say that there is too much laughter and noise in court, and I can't have it.
Q. Do you understand my last question? Please name those of the Defend ants in the box whom you consider to be typical Nazis, on the same standard which you yesterday applied to Ribbentrop?
DR. HORN: Mr. President, I am convinced that a judgment will be passed by this witness which is to be passed, in my opinion, at the end of the trial by the Tribunal. This is a judgment which the witness cannot be expected to pass.
COLONEL AMEN: This is the subject that was brought up by this very Counsel yesterday with respect to Ribbentrop.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks it a perfectly proper question. They understand that the phrase "a typical Nazi" was used by the witness himself. you can. are familiar with the dogma, and I want to add today that typical Nazis are those people who during the time of struggle represented National Socialist thoughts and were propagandists of National Socialism. The book of Rosenberg is known. Mr. Frank, as President of the Academy for German Law, is known. Hess,of course, too. These are people whom I am putting into the foreground because of their writings and speeches, through which they are known, but nobody will ever have heard Ribbentrop make an election speech.
Q But you are not answering my question. Am I to assume from that that in your opinion Rosenberg, Frank, Hess, are the only persons whom you could characterize as being typical Nazis, according to your standards? and pass judgment, an opinion on every one?
Q Precisely. Just give me the names. I do not want your opinion. I want to know under your standards which of them you consider typical Nazis. question is now whether they were unreserved in their agreement with the doctrines, whether they entered behind the Nazi program with their writings and speeches and then I named the prominent ones.
Q And you consider all of the others not to be typical Nazis? Correct?
Q I have asked you to do that three times. Will you please name them individually?
A Well, then, I also see Mr. Sauckel. He was gauleiter in the National Socialist Movement. He occupied a leading position, carrying on leading activities. Then I see the Reich Youth Leader, who educated the Hitler Youth.
Q Who else? Just give me the names. Do not give these explanations, please. foreground the typical representatives of the Party.
Q Well, how about Streicher?
A I cannot see him here. Otherwise I would answer in the affirmative. standards? Socialists. knew nothing about the murder, torture, starvation and killings which were taking place in the concentration camps? opposition and because of foreign propaganda, I knew about the existence and some of the methods, but I emphasize that I knew only some, only a part of the methods used. Regarding the size of the whole matter, I only heard in my internment here. in concentration camps while you were working with Ribbentrop?
A No, regarding individual sentences I have heard nothing exact. If that has happened to priests, then I would only consider authentic information what the Vatican would have informed me of, but that did not occur. But in spite of the fact, as I said yesterday, that the Vatican was not concerned with the cases I have occupied myself with all matters which I could put on a humane or humanitarian basis. I have occupied myself with them, and I have always acted, trying to be successful. In 87 cases I have intervened, and my intervention would bring the fate of death with it. I have intervened in hundreds of other cases, and, for that matter, I have saved the lives of thousands and thousands of people, or at least approved it. very difficult to get through and to save time. Now, will you please try to answer my questions Yes or No, if possible, and make your explanations short?
Do you understand?
A I understand perfectly. Wherever I can, I shall certainly do so. in concentration camps, while you were working with Ribbentrop? nuns or to other inmates of concentration camps? Correct? in which I was approached by representatives of the Vatican, but even where Jews were concerned, whom he was not interested in, in all cases where he intervened with reference to the Polish clergymen, for instance, although I had strict instructions not to concern myself with such cases, I have received his information, and, in spite of the "Nacht and Nebel" decrees, I have always intervened when I could get information on the subject, but details other than these which reached me through official government channels. I have not received. complaints? Ribbentrop in our office.
Q How do you know? Weisecker to Ribbentrop, and that he had turned them down, saying that they were stupid lies and that, apart from that, this was not under the jurisdiction of the Papal representative and that in the future such documents were not to be accepted; furthermore, conversations were not to be started, and that did not only apply to the Papal representatives but to all other sources, wherever diplomats intervened in matters which were none of their concern.
"Q But to you want the Tribunal to understand that you went ahead and tried to do something about these complaints, whereas Ribbentrop did nothing; is that correct?
my own sphere of influence or jurisdiction. Such cases, according to instructions, I was not meant to accept at all, but wherever the case was of principal importance or where the saving of more lives than one was concerned, I have always gone to Ribbentrop. In most of these cases, he then took the matters before Hitler, after we had constructed, invented, some new jurisdiction of sorts so that there would not be any objection that the Nuncio was not concerned with the matter. Whenever that was done, Hitler either turned down all these things, once and for all, or he said that the police would have to investigate the case afresh. a matter which had to be done for foreign political reasons, no longer the Foreign Minister made a decision, but the General Inspector. To him I had to say that this was a matter that was undesirable because of the interests of the state. the Fuehrer not to do anything about these complaints or did he not? Yes or No? he has received from Hitler and whether he obeyed every one of them individually. do anything about these complaints from the Vatican: is that not correct? or whether he did not.
A But that was the higher level. Just what order Hitler had given to Ribbentrop directly is something I cannot testify to since I do not know it.
Q Where did you receive your instructions from? what went on in any of these concentration camps until the Fuehrer ordered Luther to be placed in a concentration camp.
Do you know who Luther was?
Q Who was he, please? the head of the Department Germany, Deutschland.
Q When was he placed in a concentration camp? deskful of complaints from the Vatican about killings, atrocities, the starving of priests and runs, to which he never made any reply at all, even an acknowledgment ?
A Mr. Prosecutor, just what happened before May 1943 I do not know. As long as I was Secretary of State, I have never failed to accept a note or failed to take responsibility. To the contrary, I have accepted all these notes and have attempted to assist these people. Regarding conditions before my term of service, I cannot give you any information because I do not know.
Q Well, I am not talking about that time; I am talking about the period immediately before and following your appearance there in 1943. Now I want to read you--
A I am sorry you. I should very much like to answer the question if I knew anything about the matter, but during my time -- well, I just cannot say anything about it because I do not know anything at all. whether what he says conforms with your recollection of the facts. politically. Therefore, of my own knowledge, I cannot make a statement on that question. interrogation refers to communications which Remained in his desk unanswered for an indefinite period of time. Did you have access to Ribbentrop's desk? Did you know what was in it?
Q "Question: Did you receive from the Vatican a communication dated 2 March 1943 calling your attention to a long list of persecutions of bishops and priests, such as imprisonment, shooting, and other interferences with the exercise of religious freedom?
"Answer: I do not recollect at the moment, but I know that we had protests from the Vatican, for I mean we had a whole deskful of protests from the Vatican."
Does that conform with your recollection? time. I could not know whether he had a deskful of matters like that. would know about them, is that not correct?
A Who, me? No. I am not von Ribbentrop's butler. I have not been that. I was not in a position to go looking at his drawers and desk. from the Vatican other than these which you have already referred to? and I emphasize that during my time I accepted them all and answered them all.
Q I will read you further from the interrogation:
"Question: Did you reply to these Papal protests?
"Answer: I think there were very many we did not reply to -- quite a number."
Does that conform with your recollection?
A Certainly, yes. That must be true. That was in accordance with the instructions that were originally given.
Q By whom?
A By Hitler. They were Hitler's instructions.
Q To whom? the side, is that correct?
A Which I did not obey, yes. Otherwise, in all these cases where I was not really officially concerned with them, I would not have been allowed to accept these protests from the Vatican, nor would I have been allowed to accept protests from the Swedish Ambassador regarding occurrences in Norway, which I also accepted.
Q I will continue to read:
"Question: Now, do you mean to say that you did not even read a protest from the Vatican that came to your desk?
"Answer: It is really true. It is so that the Fuehrer took such a stand in these Vatican matters that from then on, they did not come to me any more."
Does that conform with your recollection? more? That is correct. That tallies with what I have just said: namely, that in all these cases, where we were not meant to accept them, I tried to settle them on my own, and that was against orders. went unanswered, both you and Ribbentrop learned full details of exactly what was going on in the concentration camps, did you not? regarding the treatment. They were dealing with complaints raised because a death sentence was passed or why the clergyman had been arrested at all, or similar cases, or the question of judges or things like that. documents which are already in evidence.
COLONEL AMEN: I am referring to Document Nos. 3261-PS, 3262-PS, But in those documents, witness, are set forth the details of numerous individuals and collective cases of just what went on in concentration camps.