There was no other possibility. And then you see the Fuehrer goes on to describe them as tuberculosis bacilli. ant Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?
A. I said yesterday already that von Ribbentrop whenever he was with Hitler -
Q. I am putting it to you now, today. You have now seen that document. Do you still say that Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?
A. I should like to make a distinction between the natural instincts of von Ribbentrop and what he waid when he was under Hitler's influence. I said yesterday that he was hypnotized by Hitler and then became his tool.
Q. Yes, became his tool. And from then on, he was prepared to do anything that Hitler wanted and was as violent a Nazi as anyone, isn't that right?
A. He has followed blindly the order given by Hitler.
Q. And to the extent of conniving at any and every atrocity, isn't that right?
A. Since he had no executive powers he personally could not commit any such cruelties.
(Colonel Phillimore withdrew from the lectern.)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other Chief Prosecutors want to crossexamine? BY COLONEL JOHN HARLAN AMEN (for the United States):
Q. You testified yesterday that you did not consider Ribbentrop a typical Nazi, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you consider Goering to be a typical Nazi?
A. Goering has made speeches before every type of meeting and has fought for the seizure of power, and consequently he had a completely different basis in the party from Ribbentrop.
Q. I think you can answer my question yes or no. We are trying to save time as much as possible.
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Do you consider Goering to be a typical Nazi according to the same standards you were using with Ribbentrop, yes or no?
A. That sort of question you cannot answer like that, with a yes or no. I am trying hard; every -
Q. You were asked about -
(A slight overlap in the sound channels.)
A. I can't understand; sorry.
Q. You answered it that way with respect to Ribbentrop, didn't you?
A. Goering was a personality of a peculiar type. I can't put him with; the same limits of general Nazis, as one is usually expressing -
Q. In other words, you don't know whether you think he is a typical Nazi or not, is that what you want the Tribunal to understand?
A. As to a typical Nazi, one understands the average Nazi, and Goering is a personality of a type all his own. As far as his habits are concerned, you can't compare him with the other Nazis, either.
Q. Well, are you acquainted with all of the gentlemen in the box there in front of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you tell me which of those individuals you consider to be a typical Nazi, according to the standards which you applied yesterday to Ribbentrop?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I don't want to interrupt your crossexamination, but want to say that there is too much laughter and noise in court, and I can't have it.
Q. Do you understand my last question? Please name those of the Defend ants in the box whom you consider to be typical Nazis, on the same standard which you yesterday applied to Ribbentrop?
DR. HORN: Mr. President, I am convinced that a judgment will be passed by this witness which is to be passed, in my opinion, at the end of the trial by the Tribunal. This is a judgment which the witness cannot be expected to pass.
COLONEL AMEN: This is the subject that was brought up by this very Counsel yesterday with respect to Ribbentrop.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks it a perfectly proper question. They understand that the phrase "a typical Nazi" was used by the witness himself. you can. are familiar with the dogma, and I want to add today that typical Nazis are those people who during the time of struggle represented National Socialist thoughts and were propagandists of National Socialism. The book of Rosenberg is known. Mr. Frank, as President of the Academy for German Law, is known. Hess,of course, too. These are people whom I am putting into the foreground because of their writings and speeches, through which they are known, but nobody will ever have heard Ribbentrop make an election speech.
Q But you are not answering my question. Am I to assume from that that in your opinion Rosenberg, Frank, Hess, are the only persons whom you could characterize as being typical Nazis, according to your standards? and pass judgment, an opinion on every one?
Q Precisely. Just give me the names. I do not want your opinion. I want to know under your standards which of them you consider typical Nazis. question is now whether they were unreserved in their agreement with the doctrines, whether they entered behind the Nazi program with their writings and speeches and then I named the prominent ones.
Q And you consider all of the others not to be typical Nazis? Correct?
Q I have asked you to do that three times. Will you please name them individually?
A Well, then, I also see Mr. Sauckel. He was gauleiter in the National Socialist Movement. He occupied a leading position, carrying on leading activities. Then I see the Reich Youth Leader, who educated the Hitler Youth.
Q Who else? Just give me the names. Do not give these explanations, please. foreground the typical representatives of the Party.
Q Well, how about Streicher?
A I cannot see him here. Otherwise I would answer in the affirmative. standards? Socialists. knew nothing about the murder, torture, starvation and killings which were taking place in the concentration camps? opposition and because of foreign propaganda, I knew about the existence and some of the methods, but I emphasize that I knew only some, only a part of the methods used. Regarding the size of the whole matter, I only heard in my internment here. in concentration camps while you were working with Ribbentrop?
A No, regarding individual sentences I have heard nothing exact. If that has happened to priests, then I would only consider authentic information what the Vatican would have informed me of, but that did not occur. But in spite of the fact, as I said yesterday, that the Vatican was not concerned with the cases I have occupied myself with all matters which I could put on a humane or humanitarian basis. I have occupied myself with them, and I have always acted, trying to be successful. In 87 cases I have intervened, and my intervention would bring the fate of death with it. I have intervened in hundreds of other cases, and, for that matter, I have saved the lives of thousands and thousands of people, or at least approved it. very difficult to get through and to save time. Now, will you please try to answer my questions Yes or No, if possible, and make your explanations short?
Do you understand?
A I understand perfectly. Wherever I can, I shall certainly do so. in concentration camps, while you were working with Ribbentrop? nuns or to other inmates of concentration camps? Correct? in which I was approached by representatives of the Vatican, but even where Jews were concerned, whom he was not interested in, in all cases where he intervened with reference to the Polish clergymen, for instance, although I had strict instructions not to concern myself with such cases, I have received his information, and, in spite of the "Nacht and Nebel" decrees, I have always intervened when I could get information on the subject, but details other than these which reached me through official government channels. I have not received. complaints? Ribbentrop in our office.
Q How do you know? Weisecker to Ribbentrop, and that he had turned them down, saying that they were stupid lies and that, apart from that, this was not under the jurisdiction of the Papal representative and that in the future such documents were not to be accepted; furthermore, conversations were not to be started, and that did not only apply to the Papal representatives but to all other sources, wherever diplomats intervened in matters which were none of their concern.
"Q But to you want the Tribunal to understand that you went ahead and tried to do something about these complaints, whereas Ribbentrop did nothing; is that correct?
my own sphere of influence or jurisdiction. Such cases, according to instructions, I was not meant to accept at all, but wherever the case was of principal importance or where the saving of more lives than one was concerned, I have always gone to Ribbentrop. In most of these cases, he then took the matters before Hitler, after we had constructed, invented, some new jurisdiction of sorts so that there would not be any objection that the Nuncio was not concerned with the matter. Whenever that was done, Hitler either turned down all these things, once and for all, or he said that the police would have to investigate the case afresh. a matter which had to be done for foreign political reasons, no longer the Foreign Minister made a decision, but the General Inspector. To him I had to say that this was a matter that was undesirable because of the interests of the state. the Fuehrer not to do anything about these complaints or did he not? Yes or No? he has received from Hitler and whether he obeyed every one of them individually. do anything about these complaints from the Vatican: is that not correct? or whether he did not.
A But that was the higher level. Just what order Hitler had given to Ribbentrop directly is something I cannot testify to since I do not know it.
Q Where did you receive your instructions from? what went on in any of these concentration camps until the Fuehrer ordered Luther to be placed in a concentration camp.
Do you know who Luther was?
Q Who was he, please? the head of the Department Germany, Deutschland.
Q When was he placed in a concentration camp? deskful of complaints from the Vatican about killings, atrocities, the starving of priests and runs, to which he never made any reply at all, even an acknowledgment ?
A Mr. Prosecutor, just what happened before May 1943 I do not know. As long as I was Secretary of State, I have never failed to accept a note or failed to take responsibility. To the contrary, I have accepted all these notes and have attempted to assist these people. Regarding conditions before my term of service, I cannot give you any information because I do not know.
Q Well, I am not talking about that time; I am talking about the period immediately before and following your appearance there in 1943. Now I want to read you--
A I am sorry you. I should very much like to answer the question if I knew anything about the matter, but during my time -- well, I just cannot say anything about it because I do not know anything at all. whether what he says conforms with your recollection of the facts. politically. Therefore, of my own knowledge, I cannot make a statement on that question. interrogation refers to communications which Remained in his desk unanswered for an indefinite period of time. Did you have access to Ribbentrop's desk? Did you know what was in it?
Q "Question: Did you receive from the Vatican a communication dated 2 March 1943 calling your attention to a long list of persecutions of bishops and priests, such as imprisonment, shooting, and other interferences with the exercise of religious freedom?
"Answer: I do not recollect at the moment, but I know that we had protests from the Vatican, for I mean we had a whole deskful of protests from the Vatican."
Does that conform with your recollection? time. I could not know whether he had a deskful of matters like that. would know about them, is that not correct?
A Who, me? No. I am not von Ribbentrop's butler. I have not been that. I was not in a position to go looking at his drawers and desk. from the Vatican other than these which you have already referred to? and I emphasize that during my time I accepted them all and answered them all.
Q I will read you further from the interrogation:
"Question: Did you reply to these Papal protests?
"Answer: I think there were very many we did not reply to -- quite a number."
Does that conform with your recollection?
A Certainly, yes. That must be true. That was in accordance with the instructions that were originally given.
Q By whom?
A By Hitler. They were Hitler's instructions.
Q To whom? the side, is that correct?
A Which I did not obey, yes. Otherwise, in all these cases where I was not really officially concerned with them, I would not have been allowed to accept these protests from the Vatican, nor would I have been allowed to accept protests from the Swedish Ambassador regarding occurrences in Norway, which I also accepted.
Q I will continue to read:
"Question: Now, do you mean to say that you did not even read a protest from the Vatican that came to your desk?
"Answer: It is really true. It is so that the Fuehrer took such a stand in these Vatican matters that from then on, they did not come to me any more."
Does that conform with your recollection? more? That is correct. That tallies with what I have just said: namely, that in all these cases, where we were not meant to accept them, I tried to settle them on my own, and that was against orders. went unanswered, both you and Ribbentrop learned full details of exactly what was going on in the concentration camps, did you not? regarding the treatment. They were dealing with complaints raised because a death sentence was passed or why the clergyman had been arrested at all, or similar cases, or the question of judges or things like that. documents which are already in evidence.
COLONEL AMEN: I am referring to Document Nos. 3261-PS, 3262-PS, But in those documents, witness, are set forth the details of numerous individuals and collective cases of just what went on in concentration camps.
You say you were not familiar with any of those matters?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don'tthink I did express myself like that. What I said was that everything that was communicated by foreign diplomats I do, of course, know. In other words, if detailed reports were received during my term of office, then of course I knew it. I never denied it. BY THE PRESIDENT: stood you to say was that nothing was ever mentioned in the notes about the treatment in concentration camps. generally as to whether I knew about conditions in concentration camps and whether I had been informed about the treatment in them, that everything that had been reported to me by diplomats or what I had learned from the foreign press, I knew. In other words, if these documents did contain details which I received during my time, then I must have known it too; but may I ask you, first of all, what the date of these documents is? May I ask the date of the document? BY COLONEL AMEN: but we don't want to take too much of the Tribunal's time. What I want to find out is whether or not you and Ribbentrop did know all about the murders, tortures, starvations and killings that were taking place in the concentration camps and which were the subject of constant and continuous protests from the Vatican, which Ribbentrop has testified were not even read or acknowledged? Do you understand that, Witness?
A Yes, I understood it. But of the ill-treatment in concentration camps to the degree and in the bestial way I have heard about here I knew nothing whatsoever; and I must protest against the suggestion that I had heard things like that via the Vatican at that time. Furthermore, I am convinced that even Ribbentrop knew nothing about the details as we have heard them here and as they have been shown in the films -- that he had no idea of them at all.
Q Isn't it a fact, Witness, that if you had followed up any of these complaints from the Vatican which Ribbentrop has testified were ignored, you would have found out everything which was going on in the concentration camps to the last detail?
Yes or no.
A That is not correct. I said yesterday that you can probably find the key for that situation in the speech made by Himmler on October 3, 1943, when he said that the Jewish action and concentration camp matters were to be kept just as secret as the matter of June 30, 1934. The majority of the German people weren't informed about that until a short time ago; they couldn't have known anything about these events. If I went to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller or other such officials, I was always told that everything in those concentration camps was functioning beautifully and that ill-treatment could not be mentioned at all, couldn't be talked about. tration camp, and the Danish Red Cross was taken to the concentration camp Theresienstadt. After that visit to the camp took place -- this was a Jewish camp-- I was visited by the Danish ambassador, who told me that beyond expectation everything had been favorable in that camp. I told him I was astonished and he told me yes, there was a theatre in the camp and they had a police force of their own, they had their own money. The while matter is well-run. I had hardly any reason therefore to doubt that that was true. But I myself couldn't get myself informed of the true conditions from any German department. They were probably afraid to inform a member of the Foreign Office of any such matters. But I want to emphasize again that I really had no idea of the atrocities, cruelties, and mistreatments in the concentration camps. Office of these atrocities? Had the Foreign Office ever done anything to discourage them? attempted to report the matter to the Red Cross through one channel or another, and in particular in all matters relating to prisoners of war we did this. If anything appeared to be wrong to us, then we on our own initiative drew the attention of the Swiss delegation to it and disked them to go to the place where there was something going on. This case would go to the Swiss man and I would tell him that this and that case has occurred in a concentration camp.
Then the Swiss Red Cross would probably have interfered, which would probably have incurred unpleasant measures for those concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: ColonelAmen, I think we ought to have an adjournment for ten minutes.
COLONEL AMEN: I have only a few more questions.
(A recess was taken).
BY COLONEL AMEN:
complaints from the Vatican, which he neither read nor acknowledged, did Ribbentrop take any steps or do anything to find out whether those complaints were justified and true, or did he not? Vatican that ever came to your attention, with particular reference, of course, to the desk-full to which Ribbentrop himself has testified. Do you know of any steps that were ever taken by Ribbentrop in connection with complaints received from the Vatican about the artocities taking place in concentration camps? Please try to answer "yes" or "no". Hitler, and then he waited for Hitler's order.
Q All right. And when Hitler told him to pay no attention whatsoever to these complaints, he, as usual, did exactly that the Furhrer told him to do, namely, nothing. Is that correct, so far as you know?
A Yes; he obeyed Hitler's orders.
Q And did nothing?
Q Well, didn't you tell the Tribunal that is what the direction from the Fuehrer was, to pay no attention to these complaints? Yes or no, please. complaints after the Fuehrer instructed him to disregard them. Is that right? disregard these complaints from the Vatican, Ribbentrop, as usual, did what he was directed, namely, nothing. again received the same order. I know that he once turned to Himmler and requested that the actions against the Jews should not be carried out, and he made a proposal that Jewish women and children should be put at the disposal of England and America.
Q And you also know what reply he received to that suggestion, don't you?
A I am not familiar with the answer.
ever done, are you not?
A No--What did you say was not carried out? I did not understand the question. That suggestion was never carried out, was it? directly to the foreign countries. I also do not know what answer he received from the foreign countries. correct? not on good terms anyway, do you not?
Q That was a matter of common knowledge to everybody, wasn't it?
A Yes; the enmity became larger as time went on.
Q So far as you know, did Ribbentrop take bromides every day?
A I don't know.
Q You never saw him taking any?
A It could be, I don't know. was taking them?
A Yes, I remember now, there was something about that, but I didn't pay much attention to it.
THE PRESIDENT: Do we have anything to do with whether he took bromides?
COLONEL AMEN: Yes, your Lordship, we will, because in his interrogations he claims that his memory as to many of these events has been obscured or removed by the over-use of such medicine.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. BY COLONEL AMEN: as "Ash Can"?
A Muelleimer?
A I don't exactly remember.
A I don't remember ever having been incarcerated in Muelleimer.
Q After you were taken prisoner, where were you incarcerated?
Q For how long a period of time? incarcerated there? of the inmates?
Q And you did, from time to time, have such conversations? Right?
A Yes. I was not together with them all the time, because I was in a different camp. inmates there, did you make the statement which I am about to read to you, either in exact words or in substance? Do you understand the question? "Ribbentrop is lacking in any notion of decency and truth. The conception does not exist for him." Please answer "yes" or "no". Did you say that, witness? Did you say that? supposed to have said. exact words or in substance. Do you understand that?
A I didn't precisely understand the German translation of your question.
Q Do you know understand it?
A I repeat, I didn't understand the German translation of it. whether you used these exact words or some other similar words? I will now read it to you again. Do you understand?
A Yes; I should be thankful.
Q "Ribbentrop is lacking in any notion of decency and truth. The conception does not exist for him."
A I cannot recall that I ever made any such statement. I should like to know to whom I made it. can't remember whether you did or not?
Q Is it possible that you did? yes.
COLONEL AMEN: Very good.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the other prosecutors wish to ask any questions?
BY GENERAL ZORYA:
Q. I shall limit myself only to a few questions for the sake of saving time. Inasmuch as I could understand the translation of your testimony yesterday, you testified to the fact that the German foreign policy was conducted not only by the foreign ministry but other people in other institutions affected it as well, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us who of the defendants whom you see now in the dock attempted to influence and influenced the German foreign policy?
A. Foreign policy was, of course, after the beginning of the war -
Q. I ask you not to make any declarations here in regard to foreign policy of Germany but just to indicate precisely, in answer to my question, who of the defendants of the present trial attempted to influence and influenced the German foreign policy?
A. The basic lines of foreign policy were determined solely by Hitler. The fact that we had occupied many countries and occupied the most various sorts of positions in these various countries -
Q. We know all that. I ask you to indicate who of the defendatns, naming them, attempted to influence and influenced or affected the German foreign policy. Do you understand my question?
A. Foreign policy in Germany, as I stated yesterday, was conducted solely by Hitler; but these people who were appointed to the special offices, of course had some influence in one direction or another -- for example, anyone who had a special job concerning the police carried that out; likewise the same for work problems. The same is true of the other sectors.
Q. Once again you didn't answer my question. I ask you to tell us -independent of the size and shape of the influence -- who of the present defendants attempted to influence and influenced in one way or another -- who were those besides the members of the foreign office?
A. I assume that you asked this question in relation to Russia; and since the foreign office, after the entrance of German troops into Russia, was no
A. I ask you to understand my question precisely and answer it precisely; Who of the defendants, in what way, was attempting to influence this foreign policy, even though he himself had no personal relations with the foreign office?
A. The eastern ministry, as regards Russia, because that was competent in these matters -
Q. No, not in relation to Russia.
A. In Norway Terboven carried on the policy. He, of course, influenced Hitler in his attitude toward Norway and Norwegian problems; also, the individual chiefs of the various governments in the various countries, so far as they could reach Hitler with their reports. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. We don't want you to make speeches; we want you to answer the question. You weren't asked who influenced the foreign policy, but who of the defendants influenced foreign policy. You may say none, or you may say some. It is a question that you must be able to answer.
A. I should like to assume that Rosenberg had something to say about Russia, Frank something to say about Poland, Seyss-Inquart regarding Holland. Other matters touched only special sectors. The SS certainly had something to say; no doubt the Wehrmacht, also the various other offices. They all wanted to have a certain influence. However, the basic policy was still conducted by Hitler. BY GENERAL ZORYA:
Q. Wouldn't you name Goering in this connection?
A. Goering carried on the Four-Year Plan and in this capacity must also have had a certain influence.
Q. What did this influence consist of?
A. There again I must say that I and the foreign office had nothing to do with Russia and that this was most strictly forbidden; and even in the question of propaganda and press we were permitted in no way to exercise or carry out any activity. For this reason I am particularly poorly oriented regarding Russian matters.
Q. And now, so far as other questions besides Russia, did he have any influence over those questions?
A. I didn't understand the German translation.
Q. Besides Russian questions, did Goering have any influence in the realm of foreign policy so far as other questions are concerned?
A. I should like to say that until the year 1938 he had an influence over foreign political matters on Hitler.
Q. You testified that in June 1944 the foreign ministry was also participating in preparation for an anti-Jewish congress which was supposed to be called in Prague. I ask you to reply shortly, yes or no.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who were supposed to be the honorary members of this congress?
A. Probably there were many.
Q. And who else from among the defendants?
A. I really can't remember. As far as I remember, however, Rosenberg and a large number of other leading persons; but I can't recall their names any longer. But there is written material on this subject, so that that could be ascertained without much trouble.
Q. Did Ribbentrop attempt in one way or another to protest having his name included in the roster of the honorary members of this congress?
A. So far as I can recall it was very unwillingly that he took this post, but I do not believe that it was his Intention really to take any active part in this matter.
Q. Inasmuch as I understood you, recently you testified to the fact that between Ribbentrop and Himmler there was a certain animosity?
A. Bad relations, yes.
Q. Can you tell us whether between Ribbentrop and Himmler there was any contact in their work and whether they maintained this contact and cooperation in any phase of their work?