that. Who was active in Minsk before you, as your deputy?
Q Wasn't it Hoffmann? Wasn't Hoffmann your deputy in Minsk?
A You mean in my official position?
A Well, now I don't know who it is. I was head of an agency, Commander of the Security Police and SD in Latvia, and then I broke my arm and then.
THE PRESIDENT: Now listen, you have broken that arm in so many please, I am wondering how you have any arm left. Now you went to Minsk. Strauch, did you go to Minsk?
THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, please tell us what you did when you arrived in Minsk.
THE WITNESS: Oh, you mean when I arrived in Minsk. Well, first of all and to a greater extent it was my job to carry out missions as they were carried out in Riga. In Russia there were no official and no finance agency and, therefore, everything had to be built up anew. The administration had a lot to do and especially in the Security Police, measures, the Security Police and the Criminal Police. The people brought us reports every morning because they didn't know to whom to turn, simply because there was no Criminal Police and we had to do everything. I had a criminal inspector and two commissars, two to three secretaries, and they arrived at our office and reported to the regular police, and they channeled them on to us. Then I had my Chief of Department V, therefore I.......
THE PRESIDENT: Now just a moment.
Dr. Gick, call his attention to the document which covers his activities in Minsk and get his comment on those documents.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, may I first ask him a few questions to prepare for that, and then I shall come to talk about the documents.
These are the general conditions which must be discussed in my mind. BY DR. GICK:
Q Mr. Strauch, what situation did you find in White Ruthenia?
A Well, what do you mean? What do you mean what situation? There was no government. There was no Russian government. There was only the German administration. White Ruthenia? was valid in White Ruthenia, too.
Q Was it carried out during the time you were in White Ruthenia? like that, there was a large-scale Jewish action which had been carried out by my predecessor, Sturmbeumfuehrer Hoffmann. Hehad carried out a large-scale operation as I saw from the documents, I think up to 5,000 -he had carried out such an operation -- and he carried out another operation involving 2,000 people, I believe, 5,000 and 2,000.
Q Didn't you have any conferences with Heydrich about this Jewish question? me. "Well, listen, I need the Jewish forces which I have here in this country. We can't do without these people because we have a lot of Jews here who must be made use of, for instance, in the harvest, in an armament factory, etc.", and these Jews were immediately employed by the Army in such a way that one could not keep track of them, and I told him that I had the basic orders which he, too, had, and I wanted to think the matter over, and so I travelled through the countryside and looked at the various camps, looked at the factories, agriculture, etc. I inspected and I came to the conviction that for the time being Kube was right, so he said I should support them, and I said I would try it, but I couldn't give him any promises, and then by a coincidence Heydrich came to Minsk, and I told him the same thing, and he said --he laughed a little and said, "Well, that is very strange with you people.
Nobody wants to take any responsibility. Nobody wants to do this job. Nobody wants anything to do with it." But he was in a good humor when he was talking to me, and he said to me. "Well, it is not so important;" perhaps to might reconsider his order because the Army had acted as it did, and he wanted to see how he was going to solve this problem. "Perhaps he will revoke the order." During the visit he was very pleasant and told me laughingly, "Well, just try" --well, how do you say it? "Well, you will see the consequences of the partisans, and you will cry for help, and you will tell me that I must have help; I must get away. You can't keep me here. You always think that you are smarter than we are, and you will see what is coming", and that is what he said. And then I gained a postponement for a certain time. He postponed the matter, first of all, until the completion of the harvest until November.
Q You mean a postponement in point of time? in, nothing was to be done?
Q What did you actually do in Minsk?
A In Minsk I did nothing. Nothing.
THE PRESIDENT: Take it up, Dr. Gick, after the harvest. The execution of the Order was postponed until the harvest was in. Now find out what happened immediately after the harvest was completed. BY DR. GICK:
Q Mr. Strauch, what were the conditions after the harvest? a dirty business, the whole thing. He called for any cause to find a reason to proceed with his Order. I had this Heydrich Order and I didn't have to carry it out, and in the meantime Heydrich was killed. He was not there any longer, so for the time being I was not bound by the Order.
Q You mean even after the harvest? You mean you weren't bound even after the harvest was brought in, or how do you mean this? Himmler first concerned himself with the Ministry of the Interior, with the situation in the interior instead of with the other matters. White Ruthenia?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Gick, he told you now that after Heydrich's death Himmler took on and that he was even more adamant in the execution of the Order Now let us find out whether they did finally execute the Order. BY DR. GICK:
A Well, first I didn't carry out the Order for the time being because Heydrich was dead and Himmler was now our chief, and he concerned himself with the Ministry of the Interior. He considered that very important and he let us take care of the Security Police ourselves. He didn't pay any attention to us. The other co-defendants can tell me about that, too. They couldn't even really get at the Chief. For the time being he worried about his activity in the interior. Furthermore, he was chief of an Army in the East. EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT: until much later. We are speaking now of 1942. You postponed the execution of the Fuehrer Order until the harvest was in. Heydrich was killed in June of 1942. Now what did you do in July? Did you then take up the execution of this long-deferred Order?
A Well, first of all, as I said, there was quiet. I didn't carry out anymore orders for the reasons just mentioned. Now suddenly one one day Obergruppenfuehrer von Gottberg arrived.
Gottberg had become persona non grata. Gottberg had become persona non grata and was transferred by Himmler to Minsk.
Q Now you worked together with him in White Ruthenia, didn't you? Kube? former activity of my predecessor, Dr. Hoffmann, and when I started working there, when Zinner, Kube and I -- or rather when I introduced myself to Kube, which I had to do because he was my superior in the administration he gave us a long speech that at the time we should not do anything, and I complied with his wish.
Q Well, but don't you know that Kube was very happy that the Fuehrer Order had been complied with and that many thousands of Jews were killed? Don't you know that? killed and when I arrived Kube asked me not to continue this system, and he told me why, and I stopped because when you arrive the first day, you can't immediately shoot Jews. One didn't have to do that.
Q Well, you say you shouldn't shoot Jews on the very first day. How about on the second day? Did you shoot any on the second day?
Q Well, did you shoot any on the third day? before, that I personally, until the arrival of Gottberg, carried out no Jewish executions.
Q Were you in Minsk in July of 1942?
June I was in Minsk.
Q Yes. Well, were you there in July? Jews were liquidated in Minsk on the 28th and 29th of July. trick on his part -- that is what the letter said -- that he couldn't understand that Kube was so soft. Himmler wrote to Kube that Kube is too soft, and he threatened to punish him. He told him he had put him into this position, but he could remove him from there just as quickly. If I may discuss this briefly, Kube before the War had been dismissed from the Party because of some kind of wrong measures and women affiars and he had been dismissed as Gauleiter, and he did the smartest thing that he could have done. He went to the Waffen-SS, and in the Waffen-SS he proved himself to be fairly capable, and then he went to Belgium, I think, with the Waffen-SS.
Q Well, now we are talking about 1942. He was in White Ruthenia in 1942. fact that he went with the Waffen-SS -- Kube -- and that he joined the campaign in Belgium, and Himmler was very proud of this that a Gauleiter had served in the Waffen-SS and he was very much impressed. May I continue?
Q Well, let us get back to Russia. You got us over into Belgium now.
A Well, we are in White Ruthenia. Himmler had Hitler appoint him to this position after a long fight, and thus actually he was there against Rosenberg's will and of .....
Q Well, witness, just a moment, please. Kube has made a report on what you did in White Ruthenia, and which he signed himself.
you worked with him and that you carried out the Fuehrer Order.
A Well, you can know how our political leaders work today. I would have never doubted it that he would have attacked me. I would have never doubted it.
Q Well, no, this isn't an attack. He praises you; he likes you. He wrote a letter on August 10th in which he speaks in very laudatory words of your achievements. he denounces me to Rosenberg, or rather attacks me, and said that "he can do nothing; I don't want him", and "Take him away". he got this letter from Heydrich and he got this letter via Lohse and in order to make himself popular publicly.
Q I have the testimony. I will read you the excerpt from the letter. This is a letter he wrote on August 10th, and he says:
"During detailed consultations with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner and the extremely capable Chief of the SD, SS_Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Strauch, we found that we had liquidated approximately fifty-five thousand Jews in White Ruthenia during the last ten weeks." Now he speaks of you there as the "extremely capable Chief of the SD". he says "This excellent capable Dr. Strauch, who" -- oh, yes, "This excellent man, excellent Dr. Strauch", and he also said that we had thought it over quite a bit, this Zenner and myself, and then in a brief period of time we had killed seventy-five Jews.
Q Not seventy-five, fifty-five thousand. There is a little difference in figures.
A Fifty-five thousand?
A Well, I can't say -- well, at least it was an enormous number. and had him say that first of all we weren't even together outside of the until the arrival of Gottberg we carried out no such thing. This can be traced back to the fact that Himmler had put on pressure, that he had written the figure of 1700 in this letter and that Gottberg wanted to make himself popular with the Reichsfuehrer, and he could have said, "Here, that is what we have done."
COURT II CASE IX BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, In other words, you say that he exaggerated the figures?
A. Yes, definitely, he exaggerated them. Yes. He expressed that, that probably as far as the 17,000 figures are concerned, he wanted to quiet Himmler in order not to be kicked out again.
Q. All right, now if 55,000 was an exaggeration, what figures do you think more correctly represents the facts, about how many Jews were killed during that period--you say 55,000 is too mcuh, it is exaggerated-about how many were executed during that period?
A. Well, from Minsk I only know a figure which has been named already which coveres the period of my predecessor and his predecessor and which was mentioned, and there it was supposed to have been 10,000 or something like it, but I can't swear to it, but this figure, 5,000, was always mentioned, and then the number, 10,000, was mentioned, which my predecessor, Dr. Hoffmann, was supposed to have be killed, so that the figure, 15,000--
Q. 55,000.
A. I just heard "55", well, it must have been these figures which were mentioned previously by my commander, my predecessor.
Q. Well, how many were executed after you reached Minsk?
A. Well, as I said, I had convinced myself that this wouldn't be possible for the time being and that Kube who was an opponent, or he was a very great friend of the Jews, I would say--well, I can merely say that he distributed candy among the Jewish children in the city, et cetera. In other words, he could never have written such a letter at all.
Q. Did you see him distribute this candy?
A. No. I no longer saw it, but my successor told me this officially, and that was the reason why Kube was attacked by Himmler.
Q. How long did you serve with Kube?
A. Shortly after my departure, Oh, I think until I left, we worked together.
Q. Well, that was many months, wasn't it?
A. Yes, three-well, just a minute-well, I got to Minsk on the 23rd of July--on the 22nd or 23 I came to the chief of the anti-partisan warfare. That is how long I worked with him.
Q. Well, it was several months at least?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Well, during this time how many Jews were executed under Kube?
A. Well, that is difficult to say. Well, first of all, we had the executive-
Q. I asked about how many Jews were killed under Kube.
A. Well, I must discuss with this with you, Your Honor. There were the large-scale anti-Jewish actions which were very large sometimes, with 30,000 to 40,000 partisans and among them in a camp there were about 300 Jewish partisans, were treated just the same. They were equipped, armed and attacked us and with SS and police units we started fighting them. In partisan fights probably 500 to 600 were killed, and under Kube himself, well let me see, these 15,000 Jews who were killed there when I wasn't there yet. That was my predecessor.
Q. No, I am not talking about your predecessor, I am speaking about the time that you served.
A. You mean my time? Oh Yes, well, if I count those Jews who were later killed by Gottberg, when I was G-2, when I count them along with the others, then I would say 17,000.
Q. Seventeen thousand Jews were killed while you served with Kube?
A. No. Then I didn't work with Kube any more, but I was G-2. I may presuppose that the Tribunal knows what the G-2 is. We were always fighting partisans and during these actions I was always used as G-2, and here, too, there was a list, and that said some operation had a code name like "Winter Zauber" or something like that and I had the the mission to carry out reconnaisance, that is, to determine where the partisans were.
Q. Just a minute, just a minute. Another section of this letter reads as follows, "In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated COURT II CASE IX on 28 and 29 July, 6500 of whom were Russian Jews mainly old people, women and children.
The remainder consisted of Jews unfit for work, most of whom had been sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brunn, Bremen, and Berlin. In November of the previous year at the Fuehrer's orders." Now, You will notice in that letter, Witness Strauch, that a reference is made to the killing of Jews who were not fit for work. You had told us that the Fuehrerorder was suspended until the harvest was in because you needed the Jewish labor?
A. Yes, approximately, approximately until after the harvest and in the most important plants which were important for the army.
Q. All right, now, there is no sense in executing Jews who could work, but wasn't it the idea of the Fuehrerorder that those who were not fit to work should be executed and they were executed?
A. No. I was told by Brigadier General Stahlecker at the time that this was a general order, not about the fitness or unfitness to work, well, for ideological reasons.
Q. So, therefore, a Jew had to be killed just because he was a Jew?
A. Yes, to my knowledge.
Q. Yes. Then how many were killed by Kube when you were with him on that interpretation of the fuehrerorder that a Jew had to be killed because he was a Jew?
A. Well, Kube was glad that he didn't have to carry out any operation, that he was permitted by the Heydrich order not to do it. That was his greatest happiness, because I said, Kube....
Q. Would you please look in Document Book III A--will you help him, Dr. Gick, to find it--and look at Document 3428 PS. It is on page 32 in the English.
DR. GICK: I have got it here, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, let him look at it.
THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, I know this because I can remember it very well, because I have seen it here. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Yes. Well, don't you see that from that letter Kube is quite proud of the fact that he was able to execute the fuehrerorder--don't you see that?
A. Yes. I tell you, Your Honor, that Kube wanted to protect himself. As a rest of this Himmler letter exists somewhere--he wanted to protect himself. Everyone who knows Kube knows how he does that. Under all circumstances, he wanted to get away from any mistreatment by Himmler, and that is why he made up such a letter, which is wrong, namely in the fact that he didn't even like me. He did me harm wherever he could.
Q. Well, I can understand how according to your interpretation he would exaggerate the figures, but I don't understand how he could completely invent the story that he had killed Jews if he hadn't killed any. Now, he did kill some, didn't he?
A. Well, Yes. I said in the beginning of June or January--or the January and May Jews he had to give his permission for it, as difficult as it was for him, but he had to carry it out.
Q. All right, now that-
A. Well, something he had to do, Yes.
Q. And you know that of your own knowledge because you were there, that he had executed some Jews in order to make some kind of a showing before Himmler?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was when you were there?
A. Well, almost the entire figures which altogether--figures which are shown anywhere were added by him and without my knowledge; one of my comrades in the court house told me, "Did you know this Kube letter"? I said, "No". "Well, that is very important for you". "Well, I have no reason to consider this important," I said, "but where should it come from?" "Well, that is a letter from Kube where it is described that you in a letter of Heydrich or Rosenberg you are praised very much in that." Well, I said, "That is all the same to me, it is not right, and either COURT II CASE IX it is all made up or it is forged or fabricated in order to expose the whole SS."
That, was my opinion, and I have always expressed it. Again they couldn't understand at all that I shrugged this letter off in this manner.
order to make some kind of a showing. He may have exaggerated the figures but he did kill some Jews. You know that as a fact, don't you? course, told me about it, and then during my first visit to Kube I told him, "Well, listen here, Kube, you are a Gauleiter. You tell me that you are so friendly to Jews and actually you yourself have had such executions carried out." But then he said, "Oh, for God's Sake, if you can help me at all to get out of this, then you will be doing me a great service." Well, I will look at the matter myself, and I traveled around the country and I looked at matters myself, and I came back in the conviction that here, for the time being, it was not being done, and there it was my good fortune that I met Heydrich.
A It was reported to me by my predecessor, Dr. Hoffmann.
A No, your Honor, that must be a mistake. I don't think so. I don't think I can say that. executed in White Ruthenia while you were there?
Q Now, you were there from February 1942 until July 1943?
Q That is a long time. That is a year and five months.
Q Well, that is the Kube letter. (A document was handed to the witness.)
Q Now, you know that it isn't reasonable to believe that in all that time that you did not participate in one of these actions, otherwise why did they keep you there a year and five months?
A Your Honor, I didn't claim that I didn't see any executions of Jews. That is out of the question. I wouldn't refute that. I would be a liar if I did. The situation is this way. Von Gottberg wanted, rather Kube wanted to steal some praise from Gottberg. He wanted to be popular in Berlin, and he was pretty ambitious, and he wanted some sort of partisan action, and these partisan operations usually were connected with Jewish operations, and mostly I was active as a G-2 and I was out in the field, and I was looking for those partisans, and then I sent back a message telling where the partisans were, and then Gottberg came with his main forces, mostly 500 men up to a division, and he determined where the partisans were and I was sent ahead to carry out reconnaissance.
Q Just a moment, please. Now, you told us that you did see the execution of some Jews and that if you said to the contrary that you would be a liar because you did see some executions of Jews. How many executions did you see? myself.
Q Now, how many of these executions did you supervise yourself? fuehrer von Gottberg, and he ordered every single individual to the executions, every one. There were comrades who were very much affected, but the others were less affected, and now you must consider that in White Ruthenia I only had 120 men, and if I carried out operations with them, reconnaissance operations, then I needed every man for these. there was an execution in Sluzk in the middle of February 1943. Would you please tell us about that execution? Remember first the town is Sluzk, S-l-u-z-k. Do you remember that place?
A You mean the town of Sluzk?
Q Yes. I, of course, mispronounced it. You see it there on the map? It is in White Ruthenia and South of Minsk. Do you see it on the map? Will someone please point it out to him? Perhaps it isn't shown there. Here, please show it to him here. Show to him in White Ruthenia, Sluzk. that is wrong.
Q Yes. Well, direct your attention to Sluzk. Now, you were there in February 1943?
A Yes, yes. The situation was as follows: Gottberg had started his operation and had ordered me to report to Sluzk and there was a big conference because there was at least one regiment, an Army regiment, and a regiment of police units was present there, and we worked out the operation and I was to accompany him into the field, and he announced to all participants there that here a Jewish action was to be carried out, and the reason he gave was - or rather I had mentioned the reason, that we knew that in Sluzk there were heavy arms, machine guns, etc., had been piled up, stocked in Sluzk, and this report that there were large numbers of arms, weapons there, and thereupon he ordered this action, and as G-2, I determined this beforehand, this whole story, and then immediately he started the attack. We knew approximately where the arms were stored, and hardly had we entered the ghetto when the whole thing started, the whole firing, and we were shot upon heavily and we had a pretty bad fight there.
Q Yes. Now as a result of this action in the ghetto there was an execution, that is right, isn't it?
Q Now, about how many were killed in the execution in Sluzk?
A Well, I don't know exactly because I went back into the forest, but-killed, is that about right?
A Two thousand? I don't think so, but I would assume twelve hundred.
At least that is what I was told afterwards. I went on with a few men, and my men were distributed to the various battalions and regiments.
Q All right, how many were actually killed while you were there; how many were actually shot while you were there?
A When I was there you mean? of two hundred, weren't there? didn't you,or at least held in waiting? in abeyance and waiting their turn to be shot; about how many did you see there?
AAbout two hundred. I can't give you an exact number; I couldn't swear to it, but I would say two hundred. then you went on to some other place?
Q Where did you go to?
A. There was a small place south of Sluzk - there was a small locality - which I was to occupy and hold until the larger forces could come after me.
Q. All right. What did you do there?
A. Well, I stayed there. I searched the place and found out what was there, from a war technical view point whether I could expect any attack, etc.
Q. Do you recall the town of - I can't pronounce it - T-s-c-h-e-r-we-n-? Is it on the map?
A. Tscherwen? I saw it somewhere - in some document Q. well, it's in White Ruthenia.
A. No, it's - well, it's in front of White Ruthenia. I would have to explain it. Tscherwen should actually belong to White Ruthenia but at that tine when I was there it belonged to the rear Army area and thus it was not under the civilian administration.
Q. Do you know anything about the executions which occurred in that town?
A. In Kursk - no. Completely unknown to me because it cannot be known to me because it does not belong to my area.
Q. I see. Did R-a-k-o-w belong to your area?
A. Rakow - Kursk.
Q. It is near Minsk.
A. That does not belong to my area either. I don't know where it belongs. I think to another Army group. But near Minsk there is another small place, K-u-r-s-k.
Q. Did any executions occur there?
A. Well, the Prosecution lists that in Kursk, the ghetto in Kursk consisted of 150 people and that they had been executed. In reality Kursk actually had only 120 inhabitants. And then in some -- what do you call it? Some document says that the entire ghetto in Kursk had been executed and my predecessor is supposed to have written this - that they had all been executed.
because the ghetto had offered resistance. All that.was from my predecessor.
Q. Can you give us an idea just what your area covered on the map? Can you show us just about which part of the map your area covered?
A. Then Korosten still belongs to us. Shitomir did not. Amanjew belonged to some swamp place. This belonged to somebody else. And then up here one part passed by Korosten. Then Minsk up there - well, it isn't listed in there - and through Baranowitsche and then the border was in the forest which the Russians had taken away. And, I think we had Luck but I can't say definite. Baranowitsche and Vilna, in any way, belonged to us. Here is the Bug river.
Q. How far east did you go? How far east did your line extend?
A. Well, that's so difficult to point out here, your Honor. In our area which also was called White Ruthonia - and that was the rear Army area - we were always in the Advance Area and the territory had a funny shape. Korosten, Bobruisk, Shitomir was outside. Oh, well, but it goes further east and then Baranowitsche.
Q. Did you go as far east as K-u-r-s-k-? Some one point that out it's down here.
A. No. No, 10 or 20 kilometers, I think from Minsk, east of Minsk, and it stops.
Q. I see. All right. You may sit down. Were you in Minsk in March of 1942?
A. No, under no circumstances. I said why I know this exactly. I have no means of refreshing my memory. I had my War Diary which the British took away from me in the camp and that's why I have nothing.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until tomorrow morning at the usual time 9:30.
Otto Ohlendorf, et al. defendants, sitting at Nurnberg,
A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. ASCHEN AUER: Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Ohlendorf be excused from this afternoon's session and that you give instructions that he be brought to Room 57.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Ohlendorf will be excused from attendance in Court this afternoon, and it is instructed that all those who are charged with the job of seeing to it, that he is taken to Room 57 for the afternoon.
DR. ASCHENAUER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Gick.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GICK: the Kube document which is known to you. In this document it says that you took part in lengthy discussions with the SA Brigadier-General Zinner and with Kube, and that you had discussed the liquidation of Jews in these discussions. Did you have these discussions?
A Well, first of all, let me say, - this sentence I don't forget this easily - it should say, "After detailed" or "With detailed discussions". The German sentence is completely impossible. "With detailed discussions with Brigadier-General Zinner," that was the SS and Police Leader, "and the excellent, capable Dr. Edward Strauch." And I want to object to this because at this time I wasn't even a doctor of law, and that Kube knew about it. Well, that I was supposed to have had discussions with them and that after these discussions we are supposed to have had the conviction to do something about the Jewish order gently, but to carry it out eventually, gradually, and then he discussed the Jewish problem with me and told me it is absolutely necessary in White Ruthenia not to carry out the anti-Jewish actions for the moment, and he would be grateful to me if I could be of help to him to stop these operations.