The remainder consisted of Jews unfit for work, most of whom had been sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brunn, Bremen, and Berlin. In November of the previous year at the Fuehrer's orders." Now, You will notice in that letter, Witness Strauch, that a reference is made to the killing of Jews who were not fit for work. You had told us that the Fuehrerorder was suspended until the harvest was in because you needed the Jewish labor?
A. Yes, approximately, approximately until after the harvest and in the most important plants which were important for the army.
Q. All right, now, there is no sense in executing Jews who could work, but wasn't it the idea of the Fuehrerorder that those who were not fit to work should be executed and they were executed?
A. No. I was told by Brigadier General Stahlecker at the time that this was a general order, not about the fitness or unfitness to work, well, for ideological reasons.
Q. So, therefore, a Jew had to be killed just because he was a Jew?
A. Yes, to my knowledge.
Q. Yes. Then how many were killed by Kube when you were with him on that interpretation of the fuehrerorder that a Jew had to be killed because he was a Jew?
A. Well, Kube was glad that he didn't have to carry out any operation, that he was permitted by the Heydrich order not to do it. That was his greatest happiness, because I said, Kube....
Q. Would you please look in Document Book III A--will you help him, Dr. Gick, to find it--and look at Document 3428 PS. It is on page 32 in the English.
DR. GICK: I have got it here, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, let him look at it.
THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, I know this because I can remember it very well, because I have seen it here. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Yes. Well, don't you see that from that letter Kube is quite proud of the fact that he was able to execute the fuehrerorder--don't you see that?
A. Yes. I tell you, Your Honor, that Kube wanted to protect himself. As a rest of this Himmler letter exists somewhere--he wanted to protect himself. Everyone who knows Kube knows how he does that. Under all circumstances, he wanted to get away from any mistreatment by Himmler, and that is why he made up such a letter, which is wrong, namely in the fact that he didn't even like me. He did me harm wherever he could.
Q. Well, I can understand how according to your interpretation he would exaggerate the figures, but I don't understand how he could completely invent the story that he had killed Jews if he hadn't killed any. Now, he did kill some, didn't he?
A. Well, Yes. I said in the beginning of June or January--or the January and May Jews he had to give his permission for it, as difficult as it was for him, but he had to carry it out.
Q. All right, now that-
A. Well, something he had to do, Yes.
Q. And you know that of your own knowledge because you were there, that he had executed some Jews in order to make some kind of a showing before Himmler?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was when you were there?
A. Well, almost the entire figures which altogether--figures which are shown anywhere were added by him and without my knowledge; one of my comrades in the court house told me, "Did you know this Kube letter"? I said, "No". "Well, that is very important for you". "Well, I have no reason to consider this important," I said, "but where should it come from?" "Well, that is a letter from Kube where it is described that you in a letter of Heydrich or Rosenberg you are praised very much in that." Well, I said, "That is all the same to me, it is not right, and either COURT II CASE IX it is all made up or it is forged or fabricated in order to expose the whole SS."
That, was my opinion, and I have always expressed it. Again they couldn't understand at all that I shrugged this letter off in this manner.
order to make some kind of a showing. He may have exaggerated the figures but he did kill some Jews. You know that as a fact, don't you? course, told me about it, and then during my first visit to Kube I told him, "Well, listen here, Kube, you are a Gauleiter. You tell me that you are so friendly to Jews and actually you yourself have had such executions carried out." But then he said, "Oh, for God's Sake, if you can help me at all to get out of this, then you will be doing me a great service." Well, I will look at the matter myself, and I traveled around the country and I looked at matters myself, and I came back in the conviction that here, for the time being, it was not being done, and there it was my good fortune that I met Heydrich.
A It was reported to me by my predecessor, Dr. Hoffmann.
A No, your Honor, that must be a mistake. I don't think so. I don't think I can say that. executed in White Ruthenia while you were there?
Q Now, you were there from February 1942 until July 1943?
Q That is a long time. That is a year and five months.
Q Well, that is the Kube letter. (A document was handed to the witness.)
Q Now, you know that it isn't reasonable to believe that in all that time that you did not participate in one of these actions, otherwise why did they keep you there a year and five months?
A Your Honor, I didn't claim that I didn't see any executions of Jews. That is out of the question. I wouldn't refute that. I would be a liar if I did. The situation is this way. Von Gottberg wanted, rather Kube wanted to steal some praise from Gottberg. He wanted to be popular in Berlin, and he was pretty ambitious, and he wanted some sort of partisan action, and these partisan operations usually were connected with Jewish operations, and mostly I was active as a G-2 and I was out in the field, and I was looking for those partisans, and then I sent back a message telling where the partisans were, and then Gottberg came with his main forces, mostly 500 men up to a division, and he determined where the partisans were and I was sent ahead to carry out reconnaissance.
Q Just a moment, please. Now, you told us that you did see the execution of some Jews and that if you said to the contrary that you would be a liar because you did see some executions of Jews. How many executions did you see? myself.
Q Now, how many of these executions did you supervise yourself? fuehrer von Gottberg, and he ordered every single individual to the executions, every one. There were comrades who were very much affected, but the others were less affected, and now you must consider that in White Ruthenia I only had 120 men, and if I carried out operations with them, reconnaissance operations, then I needed every man for these. there was an execution in Sluzk in the middle of February 1943. Would you please tell us about that execution? Remember first the town is Sluzk, S-l-u-z-k. Do you remember that place?
A You mean the town of Sluzk?
Q Yes. I, of course, mispronounced it. You see it there on the map? It is in White Ruthenia and South of Minsk. Do you see it on the map? Will someone please point it out to him? Perhaps it isn't shown there. Here, please show it to him here. Show to him in White Ruthenia, Sluzk. that is wrong.
Q Yes. Well, direct your attention to Sluzk. Now, you were there in February 1943?
A Yes, yes. The situation was as follows: Gottberg had started his operation and had ordered me to report to Sluzk and there was a big conference because there was at least one regiment, an Army regiment, and a regiment of police units was present there, and we worked out the operation and I was to accompany him into the field, and he announced to all participants there that here a Jewish action was to be carried out, and the reason he gave was - or rather I had mentioned the reason, that we knew that in Sluzk there were heavy arms, machine guns, etc., had been piled up, stocked in Sluzk, and this report that there were large numbers of arms, weapons there, and thereupon he ordered this action, and as G-2, I determined this beforehand, this whole story, and then immediately he started the attack. We knew approximately where the arms were stored, and hardly had we entered the ghetto when the whole thing started, the whole firing, and we were shot upon heavily and we had a pretty bad fight there.
Q Yes. Now as a result of this action in the ghetto there was an execution, that is right, isn't it?
Q Now, about how many were killed in the execution in Sluzk?
A Well, I don't know exactly because I went back into the forest, but-killed, is that about right?
A Two thousand? I don't think so, but I would assume twelve hundred.
At least that is what I was told afterwards. I went on with a few men, and my men were distributed to the various battalions and regiments.
Q All right, how many were actually killed while you were there; how many were actually shot while you were there?
A When I was there you mean? of two hundred, weren't there? didn't you,or at least held in waiting? in abeyance and waiting their turn to be shot; about how many did you see there?
AAbout two hundred. I can't give you an exact number; I couldn't swear to it, but I would say two hundred. then you went on to some other place?
Q Where did you go to?
A. There was a small place south of Sluzk - there was a small locality - which I was to occupy and hold until the larger forces could come after me.
Q. All right. What did you do there?
A. Well, I stayed there. I searched the place and found out what was there, from a war technical view point whether I could expect any attack, etc.
Q. Do you recall the town of - I can't pronounce it - T-s-c-h-e-r-we-n-? Is it on the map?
A. Tscherwen? I saw it somewhere - in some document Q. well, it's in White Ruthenia.
A. No, it's - well, it's in front of White Ruthenia. I would have to explain it. Tscherwen should actually belong to White Ruthenia but at that tine when I was there it belonged to the rear Army area and thus it was not under the civilian administration.
Q. Do you know anything about the executions which occurred in that town?
A. In Kursk - no. Completely unknown to me because it cannot be known to me because it does not belong to my area.
Q. I see. Did R-a-k-o-w belong to your area?
A. Rakow - Kursk.
Q. It is near Minsk.
A. That does not belong to my area either. I don't know where it belongs. I think to another Army group. But near Minsk there is another small place, K-u-r-s-k.
Q. Did any executions occur there?
A. Well, the Prosecution lists that in Kursk, the ghetto in Kursk consisted of 150 people and that they had been executed. In reality Kursk actually had only 120 inhabitants. And then in some -- what do you call it? Some document says that the entire ghetto in Kursk had been executed and my predecessor is supposed to have written this - that they had all been executed.
because the ghetto had offered resistance. All that.was from my predecessor.
Q. Can you give us an idea just what your area covered on the map? Can you show us just about which part of the map your area covered?
A. Then Korosten still belongs to us. Shitomir did not. Amanjew belonged to some swamp place. This belonged to somebody else. And then up here one part passed by Korosten. Then Minsk up there - well, it isn't listed in there - and through Baranowitsche and then the border was in the forest which the Russians had taken away. And, I think we had Luck but I can't say definite. Baranowitsche and Vilna, in any way, belonged to us. Here is the Bug river.
Q. How far east did you go? How far east did your line extend?
A. Well, that's so difficult to point out here, your Honor. In our area which also was called White Ruthonia - and that was the rear Army area - we were always in the Advance Area and the territory had a funny shape. Korosten, Bobruisk, Shitomir was outside. Oh, well, but it goes further east and then Baranowitsche.
Q. Did you go as far east as K-u-r-s-k-? Some one point that out it's down here.
A. No. No, 10 or 20 kilometers, I think from Minsk, east of Minsk, and it stops.
Q. I see. All right. You may sit down. Were you in Minsk in March of 1942?
A. No, under no circumstances. I said why I know this exactly. I have no means of refreshing my memory. I had my War Diary which the British took away from me in the camp and that's why I have nothing.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until tomorrow morning at the usual time 9:30.
Otto Ohlendorf, et al. defendants, sitting at Nurnberg,
A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. ASCHEN AUER: Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Ohlendorf be excused from this afternoon's session and that you give instructions that he be brought to Room 57.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Ohlendorf will be excused from attendance in Court this afternoon, and it is instructed that all those who are charged with the job of seeing to it, that he is taken to Room 57 for the afternoon.
DR. ASCHENAUER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Gick.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GICK: the Kube document which is known to you. In this document it says that you took part in lengthy discussions with the SA Brigadier-General Zinner and with Kube, and that you had discussed the liquidation of Jews in these discussions. Did you have these discussions?
A Well, first of all, let me say, - this sentence I don't forget this easily - it should say, "After detailed" or "With detailed discussions". The German sentence is completely impossible. "With detailed discussions with Brigadier-General Zinner," that was the SS and Police Leader, "and the excellent, capable Dr. Edward Strauch." And I want to object to this because at this time I wasn't even a doctor of law, and that Kube knew about it. Well, that I was supposed to have had discussions with them and that after these discussions we are supposed to have had the conviction to do something about the Jewish order gently, but to carry it out eventually, gradually, and then he discussed the Jewish problem with me and told me it is absolutely necessary in White Ruthenia not to carry out the anti-Jewish actions for the moment, and he would be grateful to me if I could be of help to him to stop these operations.
Then as long as or until Gottberg arrived, we didn't carry out any single action unless the partisan operations were carried out, and that in these partisan fights Jews were also caught and executed during the fights in the woods. Well, more than that I can't tell you.
Q And when did Gottberg arrive? something like that, no November.
Q 1942?
Q Then it isn't right that you discussed the Jewish liquidation with Kube? it. That is why I say that this letter that was written around that time is a lie. would be from about the middle of May until the end of July, you had liquidated 55,000 Jews. figures. He took the earlier results, or rather he invented the earlier results. He made them up somehow. Then he sent them to Berlin and to Himmler in order to show-- Well, Heydrich put pressure upon him and somehow he had to get around it, and thus he put these figures into the report by emphasizing my own person, even though he didn't even like me at all, and at the same time he wrote to Rosenberg an uncomplimentary letter about myself, and he was glad that nothing was done by us, and he was even more happy when Heydrich came.
the figures were not invented by Kube but that these executions took place at a period which was before your time?
A Well, somehow they took place somewhere. I don't even know whether they did take place, but they always spoke of these figures, and Kube arbitrarily moved them into the latter period, yes. were liquidated around this period?
A No, I know nothing about that. When was that supposed to have been?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gick, the letter states that the executions occurred on July 28th and 29th.
Q (By Dr. Gick) Yes, Herr Strauch, the specific date which is given in this letter is the 28th and 29th of July. On the 28th and 29th of July 10,000 Jews are supposed to have been liquidated in Minsk.
A No, I know nothing about that. Where? You mean in the Kube letter? like that.
AAnd where does it say, and in what passage does it say that? I read this letter thoroughly. Where does it say that?
Q I will show you the document. Right here, this passage (indicating).
A Well, that was not in Minsk. I can't say. I never knew about the Kube letter. I only saw this here in orison, and this fact certainly isn't known to me at all. executions in Libau or Slonin?
A Well, I would have to have the newspapers. Executions took place shortly before I arrived, just shortly before I arrived.
told us. These liquidations were supposed to have taken place afterwards in May, middle of May until end of July. taken place?.
A Yes, that would have to be. My deputy, of course, informed me about all the various things which happened. thing about such liquidations? such liquidations, whereas the other comrades made reports and I made none at all would have taken place? all the others did.
in White Ruthenia, do you know anything about that? they were already there when I arrived. Five or six, I said and four of those, four of there transports were destined for liquidation, and the others I - for the other I set up a large estate, farm, and the Jewish inhabitants were in there and they were housed in barns - well, they were housed in some sort of a structure, and since they were amply equipped with their own things, they were very well taken care of. They cooked their own meals, they raised their own cows, they had their food, and there was a hospital on this estate, and they were perfectly well taken care of Everyone whom I took there was surprised. say? Well, on Page 47 of this documents Kube, however, reports that you yourself were indignant that such a transport had arrived, and that during the night you had indignantly reported this to Kube, is that correct?
A Well, I don't know anything about his letter. I heard about it, and if this had roused me so much I would have reported it to the Air District Commander, but I wasn't so indignant about it if a thousand Jews came. letter says? such friendly to the Jews, that he had to try to make himself popular with Himmer and to pretend as if he was the best man, and, of couse, would do everything the way it should be done, in order to show himself up to be a good man. Brigadier-General Zinner had the same impression.
Q Herr Strauch, let's now discuss those documents which the prosecution has charged you with. First of all that would be Document 3279 in document Book I, Exhibit 21, German Page 100. It says here, on the German Page 116, "In White Ruthenia the cleaning process is proceeding.
The number of Jews in the area handed over to the civil administration amounts at the time to about 139,000. Einsatzgruppe A, after it took over the agency, White Rutenia, shot 33,210 Jews so far." Did you have anything to do with those facts here?
A How could I have had anything to do with them? During the first part I was still in Riga and was in charge Department 3, and in the middle, beginning in the middle these things were carried out, and then I left for White Ruthenia, and I spoke enough about that, namely, so that for the time beingI had nothing to do with these matters.
Q The report is dated 14 January '42. You say you weren't in White Ruthenia at that time yet, is that correct?
DR. GICK: Your Honor, I may point out that on Page 110 of this document it is expressly noted that SS Major Hoffman was deputizing for Strauch at that time.
Q (By Dr. Gick) Another document in Document Book III-A. German Page 65," Exhibit 107 of the prosecution, Document No. 4533. It says here on the German Page 69," in Minsk between the 1st and 4th of February '42 altogether 123 persons were arrested among them 80 people for refusing to work.
A When was this dated?
Q From the 1st of April '42 - oh, no. correction, from the 1st to the 4th of February '42.
A Well, I really have nothing to say about that. I wasn't even there yet.
Q Even at that time you were not in White Ruthenia yet? shouldn't people have been arrested in White Ruthenia, people who were unemployed, when now they are arrested everywhere in Germany. It was quite useful and realistic.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, may I point out the receip date of this document? On German Page 64, Herr Strauch is listed as having Hoffmann as his deputy.
Q (By Dr. Gick) In the same document, Herr Strauch, it is mentioned that on 4th February 1942 in Rakow about 100 persons were liquidated in the ghetto. What is your comment on this? office at that time. That is right, isn't it? I don't want to say anything that is wrong here. That is right. I wasn't there yet, but to be sure Dr. Hoffmann reported it to me, and he said that he had liquidated Rakow, and that was this Rakow which is on the road from - well, let me see, west, from Koenigsberg just before, before Minsk. And if he had liquidated these 120 Jews no man could be living there any more. I don't remember I saw anyone there.
Q Rakow, was that a small place? said he had liquidated the entire ghetto then, of course, he liquidated the whole place. prosecution's Exhibit 108, Document No. 3234, German Page 181 of this document. I don't know the English Page number, your Honor, but I suppose you have it. I just hear it, 66. English Page 66 - 60, Page 60, I beg your pardon. During the period from the 5th to the 28th of February, it says here, the main agency at Wilajka killed 29 Jews, 4 Communists, 5 partisans, 5 asocial people, and 4 people because of sabotage. Did you have anything to do these executions?
A Oh, well, I couldn't have been there then. That is out of the question. On the 22nd or 23rd I arrived in Minsk, and so I couldn't have been in Minsk in February. Document 3236, it says there on Page 95, on the English Page 70, other large scale Jewish executions have been carried out, for example in Tscherwen and Rakow.
In Tscherwen 15,000 Jews were shot, and this gives the white Ruthenia population a feeling of insecurity and a certain fear. In the more educated circles it was said that they were not used to such a procedure during the Soviet regime and that it was impossible to estimate the consequences of such measures. The document is dated the 27th of March, 1942. Did you participate in this operation? did not belong to my area, and that to my knowledge - well, that I don't know anything of such a thing. Rakow, as for that place it was reported that this ghetto, which consisted of 120 people in Rakow, was completely destroyed because it had offered resistance. That is why it is no longer there. Then at another place it says, I think it has been quoted here, that 30,000 were liquidated there. Well, now, I don't know what actually is meant. Rakow does not belong to me, but they ascribe it to me.
Q Oh, you mean Tscherwen? this ghetto in Rakow was completely destroyed because it offered resistance, and at another place it says about Rakow that 12,000 or 15,000 were liquidated. Furthermore, in Russia, and I could show you this on the map, there are many town with the same figures or if you would like any confirmation of this, or there are many of Lenins, and well, I can't go into all this. I could have given you plenty of names before, and I could give you proof that there were figures of all types. That is the time when you were already in Minsk and here the following question arises, because this incident which is reported here between the 22nd - can it have taken place between the 22nd and 27th of March?
A Well, Dr. Gick, that is possible in all things, whether active in marching or whatever happened, we cannot prove. With the best will I tried to describe these things to you.
I tried to describe it to a lot of people, but on the 31st or 35th I arrived there, so it probably happened just shortly before.
Q You mean before your arrival?
A Yes. Well, it can also be that this man there, that he carried it out.
Q But I must correct you. Were these reports sent to Berlin and edited there and compiled there, and then they bear the name of the person who worked on it? Well, how long did this take?
A Well, that varied. One cannot give any time for its. Sometimes you can prove that the dates are much earlier than these which are listed in the reports. days?
A Oh yes, quite certainly longer than five days. I think all my comrades can confirm that this was so. German, page 130, Exhibit 53, Document Number 3261. I quote from page 135, Book IIA. English page 120, "On the 2nd and 3rd of March a partisan column of 7 Banjo sleighs was destroyed. The partisans were not only armed and had a lot of ammunition with them, but they were also amply equipped with food." That was an action of the 2nd and 3rd of March. How about this, did you participate in this?
A I could not have participated because I don't suddenly catch partisans on the way with a driver. Were you already in White Ruthenia on the 2nd and 3rd? with my brother and on the 23rd of March I arrived.
Q So on the 2nd and 3rd you were not there yet?
Q But on the next page it says that. "On the 2nd end and 3rd an anti-Jewish action was carried on in Minsk involving 3,412 Jews in Minsk and 302 in Vileika and -- 2207 in Baranowitschi" -- well altogether 5721.
A Well, yes, that is right. My predecessor did that, and I already described this yesterday, that shortly before I arrived there, 7,000 people altogether. in the German, Exhibit 110, No. 3372. English page 10. Your Honor. Here your co-defendant. Sandberger, says that you had participated in Jewish persecutions in Minsk.
A Me having participated in Jewish persecutions? Well, that is always the thing with Jeckeln in Minsk. There was only one operation, and that is the one which is well-known, and which I always called the "Jeckeln action".
Q But you say the Jeckeln action took place in Riga?
Q But we are speaking of Minsk. In Minsk you are supposed to have participated in Jewish persecutions, is that right? repudiated it. I don't know that that is right.
Q Well, what is your comment on it?
A Well, that is completely correct. I didn't take part in any Jewish action in Minsk, and I only participated in it after the arrival of Gottberg. activity in Minsk or White Ruthenia.
A No. He was never with me, and only seldom was anybody ever with me, only Heydrich was with me, otherwise, I don't even know anyone. prosecution and which I have discussed with you. Now Herr Strauch, I ask you to give the Tribunal a brief description about what activity you carried out while Gottberg was there.
A Well, I described that yesterday in detail. I was the G-2 of Gottberg and I was very seldom in Minsk, but if I was there, I took care of the office there which I have described yesterday.