A. I keep on saying I know about operations in Latvia on orders by General Jeckeln. Yes, on orders by Jeckeln.
Q. Please describe this.
A. I shall describe this now. On 27, I believe -- I still had my plaster cast on and I said - rather two SS officers came to me and said that all available forces of the Security Police and SD in the Eastern territory - he wanted to carry out and that I had detailed some men and put them at his disposal. I explained in reply that I still was sick, and that I was unable to work because of this and that I was not even present because my arm was still in plaster cast and he swore terribly - the two young men, or rather the two young officers - left and secondly called up and somebody swore terribly on the telephone and then in time he explained that he was Jeckeln and that he was Himmler's deputy and he demanded that I carry out his orders. So I said I was unable to do this because it was my duty first of all to hand all my orders to my superior through teletype messages and that I would, therefore, write to Heydrich, Mueller - Gruppenfuehrer Mueller and to my superior Stahlecker and I would get a definite order from him. so I waited, I think until the 27 or 28, and I thoutht, "Well, if you don't like it, I still had received no information - if you still aren't ready to do this I won't do it either." So, I got in my car and drove home to my wife, and as my wife will say, will testify, in some book or other --
THE PRESIDENT: Where was your wife, witness?
Where was your wife? You say you drove home to her, where was she?
A. I think - I know there was a definite reason. By Dr. GICK:
Q. The President is asking you where your wife was.
A. I was just saying my wife had some particular reason which she will give, but I don't know what it is. I have to look at some book or other.
Q. Please answer the question where you found your wife at the time.
A. She was in - as far as I know - Berlin. No, in Essen. In Essen with my mother.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, witness, you were telling us in a very intelligent manner just what happened when Jeckeln instructed you to carry out this execution. You said that you objected and that you would communicate with Heydrich. Did you write to Heydrich?
A. I didn't get the translation- didn't understand it, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You told us that you refused to carry out Jeckeln's orders and that you would write to Heydrich, Mueller, and Stahlecker in order to be informed more precisely on your duties, Did you write to any of these men? Heydrich, Mueller, or Stahlecker.
A. Your Honor, this must have been some political affair. I just said that I did not know why this order was given but I was quite certain I fully understood that Heydrich issued such an order. He had his political reason for this. You can ask any of my comrades whether they would have acted in the same manner in a position like mine, namely that they would have obeyed Heydrich rather than that of Jackeln.
THE PRESIDENT: Well did you communicate with Heydrich to find our whether you were required to obey Jeckln's order?
A. Just a moment, I am not keeping up.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you communicate with Heydrich to find out-
A. I am not getting the German. Your Honor, I keep getting the English,
THE PRESIDENT: Well I hope we don't have that trouble in addition to all our other troubles.
Will you check? Is he getting the German? icated with Heydrich to find out whether you were required to comply with Jeckeln's order?
A. I don't quite get that.
THE PRESIDENT: You told us - yes - you said that Jeckeln gave you an order and you believe that you were not required to comply with that order and so you communicated with Heydrich. Did Heydrich reply to your complaint?
A. Not at all, Your Honor. Neither Heydrich replied not did Brigadefuehrer Stahlecker answer, not did Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. I thought I understood it that way. In any case I left because of this. I was asked - I was allowed to do this. And then I said I will just go home then as well. If someone had to be responsible Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich or at least Gruppenfuehrer Stahlecker will be responsible but if they just keep quiet and I have no reason to pass the responsibility.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did you comply with Jeckel's order?
A. No, I left and I said if neither Heydrich nor Mueller nor Stahlecker want to carry out the order, obviously at least they would have replied to me. If they don't want to carry out the order and it is obviously an order to avoid the whole matter from a political point of view and I would try to get away with it. One could know, Your Honor, I would like to say that now, one did not know how Heydrich would react to this matter so they just kept quiet. one was hunting, and the other was somewhere else. I don't know where and I did not think that I alone would have to carry out this and I did not carry it out because I knew that if the matter was wrong with Heydrich that it will be bad for me.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right. How you tell us that you did not obey this order or Jeckel. What did you do after that?
A. Well, until the 10th I believe -
THE PRESIDENT: 10th of what?
A. The 10th -- what was it again? The 10th of February 10th of February. That is, after my arrival I remained in Konigsberg with my wife.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, after the Jeckel action did you leave? Dr. Gick you carry on, please. Why don't you, Dr. Gick, take up each document in which he is referred to and endeavour to have him give an explanation of the particular charge in that document?
DR. GICK: Your Honor, I intent to discuss the individual documents with my client. I am just about to talk about the Jeckel document. First of all, Herr Strauch, your wife was not in Essen as you said but in Konigsberg.
A. Yes, I beg your pardon, Your Honor. I really don't know any more whether she was in Essenor Konigsberg. She wrote one day --- I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
A. She wrote to me the other day that at the time she was in Berlin - I don't know whether it was during that period but I really can not say when my wife, when she was where.
Q. But you traveled to Konigsberg?
A. Yes.
BY DR. GICK:
Q was Dr. Lange, your representative and was he not present at Riga at the time?
AAt what time?
Q At the time the Jeckeln matter came up? because else they would not have turned to me. With my bad arm I was chief of office 3 - in fact I was sich with my arm my arm was in a plaster cast and then 2 SS officers -
Q Yes, we have heard that, Herr Strauch. Were you alone when the Higher SS leaders were present at the time? and I said, I an not allowed to do this, please explain the following secution, German page 61, Exhibit 42, document 3405. I new submit the following to you. I have just heard, it is on page 57 in the English. It is explained here that on the 30 November 1941, that is the day of the Jeckeln operation -- about 600 Jews were shot at Riga; that this operation was carried out under the direction of Higher SS and Police leader, that is Jeckeln, and that Einsatzkommando II took part in this with a ratio of 1 to 20 men.
A It says there "I took part in it with 20 men?" I don't know how this was ever put in. It must have been reported but because it does contain 6 to 8 figure which are contained in the Indictment, it doesn't improve matters. Something must be wrong somewhere. the Kommando, let us say? because we could not ever detail 20 men, not even for guard duties. I am of the opinion that in Latvia there was a figure for Einsatzkommando II School -- by Einsatzkommando II school where people were trained, not for me, not for the Kommando but for the Einsatzkommando and they were trained and they were in barracks.
Well, they were trained eventually and I can only imagine that People from this Einsatzkommando school were utilized for this job, but in my absence, the chief of the Eisantzkommando who had returned in the meantime on one of the visits of the SD might have given this order. My people or the chief of the Security Police and SD could hardly have participated in this and I did not either, because as I have said -- "If you don't want to do this I don't want to either." say that if 1 to 20 is mentioned from Einsatzkommando II, this could only concern the school which was the remainder of the Einsatzkommando found in the front in Riga. best people came from Riga, replacements all the time. On one or three occasions they carried out anti-partisan actions.
Q Did you have anything to do with this school?
Q Was it under your charge?
A No. Later on, it was under the charge of Einsatzkommando II Which wasin the front territory, and later on it was under the charge of Einsatzgruppe B. I believe Einsatzgruppe B or something like that and they carried on the training.
Q Let us now talk about your work in white Ruthenia. How long were you chief of Office 3 in Riga?
Q Until when?
THE PRESIDENT: The 30th of what?
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you hear me or rather the translation?
A I can't hear very well. Although what you know I told you only yesterday..... BY DR. GICK:
Q When did you come to Minsk?
A In 1900, no, just a moment please. 1941, 1943 on the 30th of the 30th, I came to Minsk. 30th, but the 30th of which month, please.
Q Was it January?
Q February?
Q What year please?
A 1943. Just a moment. I will think about it. Please ask the President and tell him that it is very difficult for me to think of these dates. It is always very difficult for me. May I have the question again please.
Q I am asking you when you started in your office in Minsk?
A Oh, we found that out no. That was the 30th of the 30th of 1900.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you please look in my direction?
Do you understand what you are charge with in this trial?
THE PRESIDENT: Do you realize that this is the one day that you will have in your life to make an explanation as to those charges?
A I believe so. I believe you. I told the Prosecutor yesterday that I would try my best and he told me I could do it and I have the impression that I could do it. Only I have difficulties in thinking of dates.
BY DR. GICK:
Q Was it in March, Herr Strauch? We just wanted to know the year. Now please think carefully whether you can't remember the year.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, witness. Now we will help you. You went to Minsk in February 1942, to White Ruthenia, is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: We are telling you in 1942 - is that correct?
A No, it is not correct, I am.....in 1900........
THE PRESIDENT: Well tell us then what is correct?
A Please your Honor, I haven't thought about it whether -- yes, I must have come there in 1942, because in 1943 I already went to the chief of partisan warfare.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes, well, then you were in Riga up until February 1942 and then you went to White Ruthenia. Now, is that right -if so, just say yes.
THE PRESIDENT: No, please don't. All we want to know now is whether you left Riga and went to White Ruthenia in February 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: Now we are talking about February 1942. Now listen, witness. You don't need to ramble the way you are. You understand the questions. Now why are you giving us this performance? You went to Riga first and then you went to White Ruthenia, that's correct, isn't it?
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now what we are going to do is to give you a little rest. We will recess court now. During this recess I want you to think over these events a little and then when you are brought back into the court we would like you very much to give us your story. You are charged with very serious crimes and this your one chance.
We can go on without your saying a word. It is up to you. We would prefer that you tell us your story but if you don't want to tell us and if you want to tell us about China and other places, then there is nothing we can do and we will just dispose of the case as if you said nothing. You understand that?
A No, I don't know the legal expression.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you see every defendant has the right to come into court and deny the terrible things said about him, and this is the day that you have to tell your story. Is that clear?
THE PRESIDENT: All right, now we will give you a little rest, a little recess, and then we will take it up again. The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Gick.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GICK: once more. Please tell us when you arrived in Minisk. visited my brother who was in the hospital in Latvia as a physician. I visited him and he said, "Well, how about trying to call up father and congratulate him?" In normal times this was absolutely possible, but we didn't succeed, and on the 22nd I left and on the 23rd I arrived in Riga. a birthday on the 21st of March? him but we couldn't do it.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, just a moment. Now Dr. Gick, when he gets on the subject of his father's birthday, don't encourage him, because we are not interested in his father's birthday. He is on his way to Minsk. Now, find out what he did in Minsk and stick to it if you can.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, I only mentioned this as a means of refreshing his memory when he got to Minsk, otherwise the birthday, of course, does not interest us.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then we know now his father's birthday was on March 21st.
that. Who was active in Minsk before you, as your deputy?
Q Wasn't it Hoffmann? Wasn't Hoffmann your deputy in Minsk?
A You mean in my official position?
A Well, now I don't know who it is. I was head of an agency, Commander of the Security Police and SD in Latvia, and then I broke my arm and then.
THE PRESIDENT: Now listen, you have broken that arm in so many please, I am wondering how you have any arm left. Now you went to Minsk. Strauch, did you go to Minsk?
THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, please tell us what you did when you arrived in Minsk.
THE WITNESS: Oh, you mean when I arrived in Minsk. Well, first of all and to a greater extent it was my job to carry out missions as they were carried out in Riga. In Russia there were no official and no finance agency and, therefore, everything had to be built up anew. The administration had a lot to do and especially in the Security Police, measures, the Security Police and the Criminal Police. The people brought us reports every morning because they didn't know to whom to turn, simply because there was no Criminal Police and we had to do everything. I had a criminal inspector and two commissars, two to three secretaries, and they arrived at our office and reported to the regular police, and they channeled them on to us. Then I had my Chief of Department V, therefore I.......
THE PRESIDENT: Now just a moment.
Dr. Gick, call his attention to the document which covers his activities in Minsk and get his comment on those documents.
DR. GICK: Your Honor, may I first ask him a few questions to prepare for that, and then I shall come to talk about the documents.
These are the general conditions which must be discussed in my mind. BY DR. GICK:
Q Mr. Strauch, what situation did you find in White Ruthenia?
A Well, what do you mean? What do you mean what situation? There was no government. There was no Russian government. There was only the German administration. White Ruthenia? was valid in White Ruthenia, too.
Q Was it carried out during the time you were in White Ruthenia? like that, there was a large-scale Jewish action which had been carried out by my predecessor, Sturmbeumfuehrer Hoffmann. Hehad carried out a large-scale operation as I saw from the documents, I think up to 5,000 -he had carried out such an operation -- and he carried out another operation involving 2,000 people, I believe, 5,000 and 2,000.
Q Didn't you have any conferences with Heydrich about this Jewish question? me. "Well, listen, I need the Jewish forces which I have here in this country. We can't do without these people because we have a lot of Jews here who must be made use of, for instance, in the harvest, in an armament factory, etc.", and these Jews were immediately employed by the Army in such a way that one could not keep track of them, and I told him that I had the basic orders which he, too, had, and I wanted to think the matter over, and so I travelled through the countryside and looked at the various camps, looked at the factories, agriculture, etc. I inspected and I came to the conviction that for the time being Kube was right, so he said I should support them, and I said I would try it, but I couldn't give him any promises, and then by a coincidence Heydrich came to Minsk, and I told him the same thing, and he said --he laughed a little and said, "Well, that is very strange with you people.
Nobody wants to take any responsibility. Nobody wants to do this job. Nobody wants anything to do with it." But he was in a good humor when he was talking to me, and he said to me. "Well, it is not so important;" perhaps to might reconsider his order because the Army had acted as it did, and he wanted to see how he was going to solve this problem. "Perhaps he will revoke the order." During the visit he was very pleasant and told me laughingly, "Well, just try" --well, how do you say it? "Well, you will see the consequences of the partisans, and you will cry for help, and you will tell me that I must have help; I must get away. You can't keep me here. You always think that you are smarter than we are, and you will see what is coming", and that is what he said. And then I gained a postponement for a certain time. He postponed the matter, first of all, until the completion of the harvest until November.
Q You mean a postponement in point of time? in, nothing was to be done?
Q What did you actually do in Minsk?
A In Minsk I did nothing. Nothing.
THE PRESIDENT: Take it up, Dr. Gick, after the harvest. The execution of the Order was postponed until the harvest was in. Now find out what happened immediately after the harvest was completed. BY DR. GICK:
Q Mr. Strauch, what were the conditions after the harvest? a dirty business, the whole thing. He called for any cause to find a reason to proceed with his Order. I had this Heydrich Order and I didn't have to carry it out, and in the meantime Heydrich was killed. He was not there any longer, so for the time being I was not bound by the Order.
Q You mean even after the harvest? You mean you weren't bound even after the harvest was brought in, or how do you mean this? Himmler first concerned himself with the Ministry of the Interior, with the situation in the interior instead of with the other matters. White Ruthenia?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Gick, he told you now that after Heydrich's death Himmler took on and that he was even more adamant in the execution of the Order Now let us find out whether they did finally execute the Order. BY DR. GICK:
A Well, first I didn't carry out the Order for the time being because Heydrich was dead and Himmler was now our chief, and he concerned himself with the Ministry of the Interior. He considered that very important and he let us take care of the Security Police ourselves. He didn't pay any attention to us. The other co-defendants can tell me about that, too. They couldn't even really get at the Chief. For the time being he worried about his activity in the interior. Furthermore, he was chief of an Army in the East. EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT: until much later. We are speaking now of 1942. You postponed the execution of the Fuehrer Order until the harvest was in. Heydrich was killed in June of 1942. Now what did you do in July? Did you then take up the execution of this long-deferred Order?
A Well, first of all, as I said, there was quiet. I didn't carry out anymore orders for the reasons just mentioned. Now suddenly one one day Obergruppenfuehrer von Gottberg arrived.
Gottberg had become persona non grata. Gottberg had become persona non grata and was transferred by Himmler to Minsk.
Q Now you worked together with him in White Ruthenia, didn't you? Kube? former activity of my predecessor, Dr. Hoffmann, and when I started working there, when Zinner, Kube and I -- or rather when I introduced myself to Kube, which I had to do because he was my superior in the administration he gave us a long speech that at the time we should not do anything, and I complied with his wish.
Q Well, but don't you know that Kube was very happy that the Fuehrer Order had been complied with and that many thousands of Jews were killed? Don't you know that? killed and when I arrived Kube asked me not to continue this system, and he told me why, and I stopped because when you arrive the first day, you can't immediately shoot Jews. One didn't have to do that.
Q Well, you say you shouldn't shoot Jews on the very first day. How about on the second day? Did you shoot any on the second day?
Q Well, did you shoot any on the third day? before, that I personally, until the arrival of Gottberg, carried out no Jewish executions.
Q Were you in Minsk in July of 1942?
June I was in Minsk.
Q Yes. Well, were you there in July? Jews were liquidated in Minsk on the 28th and 29th of July. trick on his part -- that is what the letter said -- that he couldn't understand that Kube was so soft. Himmler wrote to Kube that Kube is too soft, and he threatened to punish him. He told him he had put him into this position, but he could remove him from there just as quickly. If I may discuss this briefly, Kube before the War had been dismissed from the Party because of some kind of wrong measures and women affiars and he had been dismissed as Gauleiter, and he did the smartest thing that he could have done. He went to the Waffen-SS, and in the Waffen-SS he proved himself to be fairly capable, and then he went to Belgium, I think, with the Waffen-SS.
Q Well, now we are talking about 1942. He was in White Ruthenia in 1942. fact that he went with the Waffen-SS -- Kube -- and that he joined the campaign in Belgium, and Himmler was very proud of this that a Gauleiter had served in the Waffen-SS and he was very much impressed. May I continue?
Q Well, let us get back to Russia. You got us over into Belgium now.
A Well, we are in White Ruthenia. Himmler had Hitler appoint him to this position after a long fight, and thus actually he was there against Rosenberg's will and of .....
Q Well, witness, just a moment, please. Kube has made a report on what you did in White Ruthenia, and which he signed himself.
you worked with him and that you carried out the Fuehrer Order.
A Well, you can know how our political leaders work today. I would have never doubted it that he would have attacked me. I would have never doubted it.
Q Well, no, this isn't an attack. He praises you; he likes you. He wrote a letter on August 10th in which he speaks in very laudatory words of your achievements. he denounces me to Rosenberg, or rather attacks me, and said that "he can do nothing; I don't want him", and "Take him away". he got this letter from Heydrich and he got this letter via Lohse and in order to make himself popular publicly.
Q I have the testimony. I will read you the excerpt from the letter. This is a letter he wrote on August 10th, and he says:
"During detailed consultations with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner and the extremely capable Chief of the SD, SS_Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Strauch, we found that we had liquidated approximately fifty-five thousand Jews in White Ruthenia during the last ten weeks." Now he speaks of you there as the "extremely capable Chief of the SD". he says "This excellent capable Dr. Strauch, who" -- oh, yes, "This excellent man, excellent Dr. Strauch", and he also said that we had thought it over quite a bit, this Zenner and myself, and then in a brief period of time we had killed seventy-five Jews.
Q Not seventy-five, fifty-five thousand. There is a little difference in figures.
A Fifty-five thousand?
A Well, I can't say -- well, at least it was an enormous number. and had him say that first of all we weren't even together outside of the until the arrival of Gottberg we carried out no such thing. This can be traced back to the fact that Himmler had put on pressure, that he had written the figure of 1700 in this letter and that Gottberg wanted to make himself popular with the Reichsfuehrer, and he could have said, "Here, that is what we have done."
COURT II CASE IX BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, In other words, you say that he exaggerated the figures?
A. Yes, definitely, he exaggerated them. Yes. He expressed that, that probably as far as the 17,000 figures are concerned, he wanted to quiet Himmler in order not to be kicked out again.
Q. All right, now if 55,000 was an exaggeration, what figures do you think more correctly represents the facts, about how many Jews were killed during that period--you say 55,000 is too mcuh, it is exaggerated-about how many were executed during that period?
A. Well, from Minsk I only know a figure which has been named already which coveres the period of my predecessor and his predecessor and which was mentioned, and there it was supposed to have been 10,000 or something like it, but I can't swear to it, but this figure, 5,000, was always mentioned, and then the number, 10,000, was mentioned, which my predecessor, Dr. Hoffmann, was supposed to have be killed, so that the figure, 15,000--
Q. 55,000.
A. I just heard "55", well, it must have been these figures which were mentioned previously by my commander, my predecessor.
Q. Well, how many were executed after you reached Minsk?
A. Well, as I said, I had convinced myself that this wouldn't be possible for the time being and that Kube who was an opponent, or he was a very great friend of the Jews, I would say--well, I can merely say that he distributed candy among the Jewish children in the city, et cetera. In other words, he could never have written such a letter at all.
Q. Did you see him distribute this candy?
A. No. I no longer saw it, but my successor told me this officially, and that was the reason why Kube was attacked by Himmler.
Q. How long did you serve with Kube?
A. Shortly after my departure, Oh, I think until I left, we worked together.
Q. Well, that was many months, wasn't it?
A. Yes, three-well, just a minute-well, I got to Minsk on the 23rd of July--on the 22nd or 23 I came to the chief of the anti-partisan warfare. That is how long I worked with him.
Q. Well, it was several months at least?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Well, during this time how many Jews were executed under Kube?
A. Well, that is difficult to say. Well, first of all, we had the executive-
Q. I asked about how many Jews were killed under Kube.
A. Well, I must discuss with this with you, Your Honor. There were the large-scale anti-Jewish actions which were very large sometimes, with 30,000 to 40,000 partisans and among them in a camp there were about 300 Jewish partisans, were treated just the same. They were equipped, armed and attacked us and with SS and police units we started fighting them. In partisan fights probably 500 to 600 were killed, and under Kube himself, well let me see, these 15,000 Jews who were killed there when I wasn't there yet. That was my predecessor.
Q. No, I am not talking about your predecessor, I am speaking about the time that you served.
A. You mean my time? Oh Yes, well, if I count those Jews who were later killed by Gottberg, when I was G-2, when I count them along with the others, then I would say 17,000.
Q. Seventeen thousand Jews were killed while you served with Kube?
A. No. Then I didn't work with Kube any more, but I was G-2. I may presuppose that the Tribunal knows what the G-2 is. We were always fighting partisans and during these actions I was always used as G-2, and here, too, there was a list, and that said some operation had a code name like "Winter Zauber" or something like that and I had the the mission to carry out reconnaisance, that is, to determine where the partisans were.
Q. Just a minute, just a minute. Another section of this letter reads as follows, "In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated COURT II CASE IX on 28 and 29 July, 6500 of whom were Russian Jews mainly old people, women and children.