Q. Now, in autumn 1947 you learned from Mrs. Six, I believe, that her husband is a defendant in the Nurnberg trial?
A. Yes, I even read about that in the "Neue Zeitung".
Q. And then you found out that the defense counsel of professor Six wants to call you as a witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what period of time elapsed between this time when you found out about this and the period of time when I actually was with you in Stuttgart?
A. Now again you ask about an exact period of time. I could not give you an exact time. It was a period of time, but whether it was a month, or half a month I could not tell you.
Q. Was it a fortnight at least?
A. I do not want to say a date any more. Otherwise I -
Q. Now, during that time did you not have several days and nights to consider this matter?
A. I did not consider anything as I did not know what questions would be asked. Of course, it worried me, and I am extremely sorry that Professor Six -
Q. When you heard surely, that somebody will arrive to examine me as a witness, you, I am sure, thought, now what can I say, what do I know about Six?
A. About these official matters I never thought about. What I can say about Professors Six was about him as a person and as a character and what he had meant to me as a support, and I really did not know what he was made responsible for. If I knew, I would like to say something about it, but I really don't know.
Q. But this is not what the question is all about at the moment. My question at the moment is why, when you learned that some information is required from you about Six, why then did you not look into your diary before?
A. Mrs. Six never told me anything about this date. She did not put the question to me which I was to consider. I did not know in what channel to direct my thought. Dr. Ulmer, I am here for the first time in a courtroom, and I don't really know what it is all about.
Q. Therefore, before I arrived you have not been influenced in any way concerning what you were supposed to testify to?
A. No. We discussed the activity, that is Frau Six and myself, and Frau Six then told me, "Did you see the archives in Russia?" And I said, "No, in Russia I did not see the archives. I saw them in Berlin for the first time, in the library, all these books which were seized by Professor Six, and there during the latter time I worked in the museum." And the pictures which were taken down at the time, they also went to Berlin, but the books I saw for the first time in Berlin.
Q. All this you discussed with Mrs. Six before I arrived to see you?
A. Yes.
Q. And when I arrived were you not surprised that I wanted entirely different information from what you thought I wanted to know?
A. No, you certainly did not force me to do anything at all, Dr. Ulmer. Of course, it is my fault that I do not remember the exact date. I don't know how this comes about, this question about the date.
Q. You don't have to apologize to me. I certainly do not blame you for anything at all. I have no bad conscience in any way.
A. Of course, it is my fault, I have signed it, and I shall never sign anything again.
Q. I don't understand why the 20th of August 1941, could be established as thedate of the return.
A. This is a riddle to me too, Dr. Ulmer, because I am not interested in the 20th of August, I don't know how.
Q. But you certainly think that it was contained in there at the moment when you signed it, not that I put it in myself afterwards?
A. No. I have the original, or at least I have a copy. No, I certainly do not think so. I must beg your pardon.
Q. That is not necessary. Did I bring along a typewritten sheet with me, a document, when I came, or was the content of what we had discussed in peace taken down on a clean white sheet of paper?
A. Well, it was not very quiet because I cried.
Q. I mean as far as the time was concerned. I mean we had time, didn't we? I want to establish the fact, whether I just came to you in a hurry and asked you to sign this immediately or whether it took some time? What, for instance, do you think? How long did we discuss matters?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember the day of the week?
A. No.
Q. No, I don't mean the date. No, for God's sake don't let's have a date. I wonder whether it was Monday or Wednesday?
A. No, I don't remember.
Q. So you don't remember. Well, it was a Sunday.
A. Yes, it must have been a Sunday.
Q. Now, you know that, do you?
A. Well, you say it.
Q. But you do know it, do you?
A. Yes, that was a Sunday.
Q. Thank you.
A. That is all right.
Q. Now, you had a job in Stuttgart?
A. Not any longer now.
Q. But at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. So you had to get leave, because you had to arrange your free time in order to be able to discuss things with me. Now, how long did you take -- a whole morning off?
A. Yes, a whole morning.
Q. And was this morning filled up with this visit in my office?
A. Well, I had to wait for a long time in your office, Dr. Ulmer.
Q. And you say that the 20th of August you know from your diary?
A. Yes, so it says in my diary, the 23rd of August, because I was requested to find the date. I couldn't do so from my memory so I had to look into everything that is left from that time. I really -- I took great care to find out when I returned from the village to the town.
Q. Well, how is it then -- how did you know -- where your husband was -- arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. Your husband before the Germans arrived was arrested by the Russian Police, wasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was it?
A. In Smolensk.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. Of course, I also was in Smolensk.
Q. When your husband had been arrested?
A. I was together with my husband.
Q. But you were not arrested?
A. But I was with my husband he was arrested.
Q. Yes. Well, then your husband was arrested. Now, what did you do?
A. I fainted first of all.
Q. I too.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I must remind the Tribunal that this witness is a defense witness. She may not be impeached, and this is simply an effort on the part of Dr. Ulmer to embarrass and ridicule the witness with irrelevant questions.
DR. ULMER: The question, your Honor, is of considerable importance and I may give the reason for that. I want to show when the witness left to go to the country, to this village from which she says she returned, on the 23rd of August. I do not want to embarrass the witness in any way. I know that the witness is very sensitive. Therefore, I spent two hours in order to be able to deal with her.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ulmer, you are allowed to question the witness on any subject which has been brought into relief by this affidavit, and we don't think that you have been at all unfair in your questioning of the witness.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, the witness has been asked when her husband was arrested, Her husband was killed.
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't on the right channel.
MR. FERENCZ: The witness was asked when her husband was arrested. We know that her husband was killed. She testified that she fainted at the time, whereupon Dr. Ulmer replied, "He fainted too". I hardly think it proper.
THE PRESIDENT: I wasn't aware of that comment.
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, your Honor, that is what brought about this breakdown of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think this would be a good moment to recess.
The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
( A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, I am terribly sorry that because of the intensity of my questions, I have to upset the witness; and my remark that I also faint only refers to the fact that in my defense I can do nothing since this situation is changed. That I am powerless, in view of the situation, but I did not want to hurt her feelings. I did refer to the fainting of the witness. That is far from me. I never intended anything of the sort and at the time in Stuttgart I tried to do everything to help the witness to talk to me in a quiet manner. BY DR. ULMER: have the impression that I tried to press you in any way or that, considering all your considerations including religious ones, that you were to testify here on oath, I explained this to you because you would have to testify here under oath. I did not want to make any difficulties for you and over that you did not have to worry as far as your conscience is concerned, there should not be any worldly consequences either?
Q I do not know why you are saying "No" now.
A No, Dr. Ulmer, you did not force me to do anything else.
Q Was I careful, considerate?
Q That is what I am trying to show. Well, unfortunately I have to continue where we stopped. When your husband had been arrested by the Russians before they left, you said, first of all you fainted.
It can't be helped. And when did you leave Smolensk then?
A The following day. My husband was arrested on 26 June and on the 27th I left the city with the child, Dr. Ulmer.
Q. Could you leave the city in an orderly manner? Could you take enough clothes and everything you needed, you had a baby, for the baby as well? Could you take all that along? along. It was fifteen or twenty kilometers from the town and I couldn't take along a good deal of things. did you also take your diary along?
A No, I did not take my diary along. I wrote it in Koschomir, in the village in a little book. Unfortunately my diary was not packed. All this was left at home, what I had written from the beginning. continue to keep this diary? you continued to write in it in Smolensk?
Q One further question. Do you remember that in Smolensk after the Germans arrived there the large cathedral was again opened?
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor. I object to the question. It was not raised in my cross examination and the purpose of this redirect is to clarify questions raised on cross examination.
DR. ULMER: I ask you to admit this question because this question helps us to determine a date. When this cathedral was opened can be found out and that is why I would like to ask the witness about this. I am trying to help the witness and us, in order to get at this difference of these dates. That is why I asked this question.
THE PRESIDENT: If it is for the purpose of establishing the chronology of events, it will be permitted. BY DR. ULMER:
Q Do you know when the day of the "White Mother of God", the patron of the city, is? already celebrate that occasion in the city?
A No, I didn't. At the time I didn't go to church at all. I was in such a state ......
Q I can understand that. But, do you know whether this day had already passed when you were in Smolensk?
A No, I do not know. No, Dr. Ulmer. I was not there.
Q You do not remember exactly when this day was?
A No, I know nothing about the cathedral. I know that it was opened but when this took place I cannot tell you.
Q When you came back, yes. Do you know anything about a birthday of Dr. Six? this birthday. a celebration? What I mean is, do you know that a birthday celebration took place for Professor Six?
A I can't recall that. There were many celebrations there.
chief -
A Yes. Herr Dr. Mahnke said once that it was Dr. Six's birthday.
Q Dr. Mahnke said that on a definite date, one day?
Q While you were in Smolensk with this VKM?
Q Will you please tell us how Dr. Mahnke told you about this? Dr. Mahnke told tou, "Today is Dr. Six's birthday"?
A No, he didn't say "today".
Q What did he say about the birthday of Dr. Six?
Q Do you know whether he said when?
Q I could imagine he was still tired and he said, "I am so tired, because last night we celebrated Six's birthday."
A No. Unfortunately I cannot tell you that. celebration had taken place some time age or that Mahnke simply told you "Just now it happened that we celebrated the birthday"?
A Unfortunately I cannot tell you exactly, Dr. Ulmer. Mahnke about more personal matters.
A Dr. Ulmer, from the very first day I talked with Dr. Mahnke about my personal affairs.
Q About your personal affairs? Yes, I understand that. But, right from the beginning did you understand each other so well that Herr Mahnke could discuss personal affairs which did not concern you? Do you understand, Fau Vetter? If you go to some office in Stuttgart now and ask for something, certainly you are received in a friendly and polite manner, but surely they won't tell you right away that a few days previously they have celebrated the birthday of the chief of the office.
You understand this, don't you? for some time a little closer so that he told you that "We celebrated our chief's birthday." Of, do you think that-when Herr Mahnke told you about it?
MR. FERENCZ: The witness has testified already three or four times that she does not know the date. This is not cross examination. This is a defense witness. We have permitted all kinds of leading questions to be put, without objecting. However, I would like to remind the Defense Counsel that this is a defense witness and that if she has answered three or four times that should be adequate.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I do not think you need to press that any more, Doctor.
DR. ULMER: Very well, I shall cease to ask about this, Your Honor. BY DR. ULMER: remembered your diary when you were asked about these matters after my interrogation? When was this? When I was asked by Nuernberg, they asked me immediately when did Professor six leave Russia and I said I do not know the exact date.
Professor Six was in Russia only for a short time while I was there, but I cannot tell you the date because that was six years ago. asked you again about this? I just believed everything and I thought everything was all right and I trusted you fully. Dr. Ulmer, I did not think -
Q Don't you trust me any more, now?
A Yes, well, I am not talking about it. What I mean is-confidence?
Q How do you mean that? incorrect. You told me that afterwards and you did that purposely. I had already determined the definite date. They told me, "Well, do you have any papers from that time", and they took some of my papers and among them was my diary. I did not know whether anything was contained in it. I only had a little bit from that time left and they said it was so important that I determine the date when I saw Dr. Six. They said it was of importance. I didn't know why. And I tried to think as hard as I could, Dr. Ulmer.
Q Very well, I am not reproaching you. You say that they took some of your papers, that is what you said. How was this done?
Q How did they take them? Did they tell you, "What papers do you have left from that time?"
Q What kind of papers you had left? I did not know that the date was contained in this affidavit. I really did not know.
A Yes, afterwards they told me, "How did it happen that the 20th of August is mentioned here?"
Q You do have the copies still, don't you?
Q Very well, and then you handed in all papers?
Q To the interrogator? clearly, What did he say that I said to you?
A I have said it before. "How about this date which is contained here?" They showed me the copy by you. And how it happened that this day is in there. I said, "I don't know just how it happened." So they told me, "But Dr. Ulmer knew that the date is wrong," Because I thought I don't want to harm Professor Six at all, really I don't, and so I said perhaps my diary might help. Certainly I don't want to do that. I don't want to bother my conscience about that.
Q But you are not supposed to. But, that is what I told you in Stuttgart. They explained to you that I had not been quite honest with you?
you for the second time?
A Yes. I didn't quite remember this date so exactly, but I thought you were quite sure of it. I said to you at the time, "I only know that Professor Six was a very short time in Russia." I told you that right in the beginning. But you will understand this, Dr. Ulmer. Six years ago -one remembers when one was married and when a child was born, but apart from that I didn't even remember the date when I came to Germany. I had to look it up on papers as well.
not Know this immediately what the exact date was, that they would have to keep you, detain you?
Q That any unpleasantness would arise for you? this affidavit with me? Because you thought perhaps you might be reproached by the Russians because of this? Do you recall that? Tribunal or any one who has to do with it will ever - just because you act as a witness for a defendant now - will ever make any difficulties for you and tell the Russians about it?
A You told me that I wouldn't be asked here as a witness at all.
Q I said I assumed that you won't be called here as a witness by me remember. Do you remember that exactly, I told you that if you give me the affidavit then I won't need to call you as witness? Please say what you would like to. I don't want to influence you at all. I don't want to look at you. I am not trying to force you to any answer.
A No, you are not forcing me. You said it certainly would not happen because everything I know was from a human point of view only. And so I asked you whether the judges would also consider the human impression -
Q And what did I tell you then? no one in this entire American Tribunal would ever make any difficulties for you with the Russian authorities about this? Didn't I tell you that?
A Well, you know, Mr. Ulmer, if I had committed an offense by signing the affidavit I have to bear the responsibility for it and I am willing to bear the responsibility.
I assume all the responsibility.
Q Didn't you say that it night perhaps be unpleasant for you because of your child, which was everything that mattered to you, and that because of the child you did not want to have any difficulties because of being brought into this trial?
A I beg your pardon? under all circumstances to have difficulties because you had been brought into this trial. be quite irrelevant and there was never any question about it. You said, "We won't need you as a witness here on the stand and that it will be quite enough". that I did not write in that you knew nothing about it that Six killed anyone or had anyone killed -
MR. FERENCZ: The last statement was, "I wondered if something is missing from the affidavit," What the Defense Counsel wonders has nothing to do with what this witness is here to testify to.
THE PRESIDENT: You have submitteed the affidavit, Dr. Ulmer, and certainly you are assumed to knew what it contains. So any reflection on what it does not contain might not be important at this time.
DR. ULMER: Would you repeat that, please?
THE PRESIDENT: You made a remark that you were in perplexity about what was or was not in the affidavit. You are assumed to know what is in the affidavit. So your self-perplexity is of no concern.
DR. ULMER: I see. Well, Your Honor, I am of course also concerned about my personality. In order to show the Tribunal that I never tried to force the witness to give a date which perhaps she did not remember at the time, that is -
THE PRESIDENT: You have just made a statement, "I wonder why", and then you referred to something that was or was not in the affidavit. It was not in the nature of a question to the witness.
DR. ULMER: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that it is a discrepancy between what appears in her copy of the affidavit and what appears in your copy?
DR. ULMER: There is no difference between the witness' copy and mine. That is exactly the same. The one I have is the carbon copy of the typewritten original of this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you began to make a remark, when Mr. Ferencz objected, and that remark seemed to put you into a state of doubt as to why a certain statement was or was not in the affidavit. Whatever is in the affidavit is before you, so you can question on that.
DR. ULMER: That is what I got from the witness and what I discussed with the witness. And I had the impression or else I would not have entered it in the affidavit that this was exactly what the witness is trying to say and wants to say, because she still remembers it. That is all. Perhaps I thought aloud just now. I said I am surprised, I can't Imagine how the 20th of August can get in there because the date, 20 August - this witness was the first witness whom I personally interrogated who mentioned this date, 20 August. On my own, I couldn't suddenly think about this date, 20 August. I remember at the beginning when Mr. Ferencz questioned the witness it was said that before I came the witness was given a list or something like that of what they thought that she would have to testify to as witness or what she could testify to. BY DR. ULMER:
Q Isn't that what it was, Frau Vetter? Frau Six brought something that was written down to you and said they would like or they thought that you could testify as to this?
Q And did you then tell Frau Six, "No, I cannot be witness for all that?
could not be witness for. anteroom of the office of the Advance Commander Moscow? didn't Frau Six cross out a number of things from the notes?
Q And didn't I come then and tell you Frau Six told me that you could not testify on all these points as I had imagined you could do?
Q Did I try in any way to persuade you to say a little more? remained from those notes which Frau Six brought to you originally?
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't quite catch that question and answer.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, I said originally, for the first time, the witness was approached by the wife of the defendant -
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't necessary to repeat all that. Your last question was, did you include in the affidavit anything which was not left on the notes which had been submitted by Frau Six; and she answered, yes.
DR. ULMER: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. My question was meant to say, did I want more from you than was contained in the written notes with which previously Frau Six had approached you, and since those things which you could not remember from those notes exactly were taken out, and what remained -
THE PRESIDENT: But her answer is in the affirmative. Are you aware of that? In effect she says, "Yes, you wanted more than what appeared on those notes." Now, I want you to be aware of the reply.
DR. ULMER: She said I wanted more than what remained? BY DR. ULMER:
Q Is that right, Frau Vetter? Were you trying to say that?
A No, I didn't have the written notes with me.
Q Yes, I know, but I had them with me. I had something in my hand, some documents on which I could interrogate you. And I want to ask you, did I try to ask you about more things than you had told Frau Six about previously, more than you actually remembered?
DR. ULMER: Is this clarified how, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is clarified. I was of the impression that her answer would be no, in view of what had preceded that question, but the answer came out yes. But it is clear now.
DR. ULMER: Perhaps it was owing to a rather complicated manner of putting questions by me. BY DR. ULMER: calendar is divided? Is there a difference between the Russian and German calendar?
A I do not know. There might be. I do not know. Christmas is different from the German one, I believe.
A That is quite possible, I really wouldn't know.
Q You don't know that either? you can recall, when you dared to go back to Smolensk?
A When I dared to go back?
Russians.
Q But surely you left it because fighting and shooting were going on?
Q That is what I mean. Yes, and then you dared to go back when everything was over? much later after Smolensk had been in German hands and the fighting was over -
Q No, you are not supposed to, Frau Vetter. I would only be interested in - did you hear that Smolensk had fallen and that you decided to return.
A Yes, of course. First I saw the German troops in the village and then I quickly returned to the city.
Q Very soon after that you returned to the city. Did you hear from your country men in Smolensk how long the Germans had been there already?
Q That didn't interest you either?
A I do not know, Dr. Ulmer, that is a long time ago.