You understand this, don't you? for some time a little closer so that he told you that "We celebrated our chief's birthday." Of, do you think that-when Herr Mahnke told you about it?
MR. FERENCZ: The witness has testified already three or four times that she does not know the date. This is not cross examination. This is a defense witness. We have permitted all kinds of leading questions to be put, without objecting. However, I would like to remind the Defense Counsel that this is a defense witness and that if she has answered three or four times that should be adequate.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I do not think you need to press that any more, Doctor.
DR. ULMER: Very well, I shall cease to ask about this, Your Honor. BY DR. ULMER: remembered your diary when you were asked about these matters after my interrogation? When was this? When I was asked by Nuernberg, they asked me immediately when did Professor six leave Russia and I said I do not know the exact date.
Professor Six was in Russia only for a short time while I was there, but I cannot tell you the date because that was six years ago. asked you again about this? I just believed everything and I thought everything was all right and I trusted you fully. Dr. Ulmer, I did not think -
Q Don't you trust me any more, now?
A Yes, well, I am not talking about it. What I mean is-confidence?
Q How do you mean that? incorrect. You told me that afterwards and you did that purposely. I had already determined the definite date. They told me, "Well, do you have any papers from that time", and they took some of my papers and among them was my diary. I did not know whether anything was contained in it. I only had a little bit from that time left and they said it was so important that I determine the date when I saw Dr. Six. They said it was of importance. I didn't know why. And I tried to think as hard as I could, Dr. Ulmer.
Q Very well, I am not reproaching you. You say that they took some of your papers, that is what you said. How was this done?
Q How did they take them? Did they tell you, "What papers do you have left from that time?"
Q What kind of papers you had left? I did not know that the date was contained in this affidavit. I really did not know.
A Yes, afterwards they told me, "How did it happen that the 20th of August is mentioned here?"
Q You do have the copies still, don't you?
Q Very well, and then you handed in all papers?
Q To the interrogator? clearly, What did he say that I said to you?
A I have said it before. "How about this date which is contained here?" They showed me the copy by you. And how it happened that this day is in there. I said, "I don't know just how it happened." So they told me, "But Dr. Ulmer knew that the date is wrong," Because I thought I don't want to harm Professor Six at all, really I don't, and so I said perhaps my diary might help. Certainly I don't want to do that. I don't want to bother my conscience about that.
Q But you are not supposed to. But, that is what I told you in Stuttgart. They explained to you that I had not been quite honest with you?
you for the second time?
A Yes. I didn't quite remember this date so exactly, but I thought you were quite sure of it. I said to you at the time, "I only know that Professor Six was a very short time in Russia." I told you that right in the beginning. But you will understand this, Dr. Ulmer. Six years ago -one remembers when one was married and when a child was born, but apart from that I didn't even remember the date when I came to Germany. I had to look it up on papers as well.
not Know this immediately what the exact date was, that they would have to keep you, detain you?
Q That any unpleasantness would arise for you? this affidavit with me? Because you thought perhaps you might be reproached by the Russians because of this? Do you recall that? Tribunal or any one who has to do with it will ever - just because you act as a witness for a defendant now - will ever make any difficulties for you and tell the Russians about it?
A You told me that I wouldn't be asked here as a witness at all.
Q I said I assumed that you won't be called here as a witness by me remember. Do you remember that exactly, I told you that if you give me the affidavit then I won't need to call you as witness? Please say what you would like to. I don't want to influence you at all. I don't want to look at you. I am not trying to force you to any answer.
A No, you are not forcing me. You said it certainly would not happen because everything I know was from a human point of view only. And so I asked you whether the judges would also consider the human impression -
Q And what did I tell you then? no one in this entire American Tribunal would ever make any difficulties for you with the Russian authorities about this? Didn't I tell you that?
A Well, you know, Mr. Ulmer, if I had committed an offense by signing the affidavit I have to bear the responsibility for it and I am willing to bear the responsibility.
I assume all the responsibility.
Q Didn't you say that it night perhaps be unpleasant for you because of your child, which was everything that mattered to you, and that because of the child you did not want to have any difficulties because of being brought into this trial?
A I beg your pardon? under all circumstances to have difficulties because you had been brought into this trial. be quite irrelevant and there was never any question about it. You said, "We won't need you as a witness here on the stand and that it will be quite enough". that I did not write in that you knew nothing about it that Six killed anyone or had anyone killed -
MR. FERENCZ: The last statement was, "I wondered if something is missing from the affidavit," What the Defense Counsel wonders has nothing to do with what this witness is here to testify to.
THE PRESIDENT: You have submitteed the affidavit, Dr. Ulmer, and certainly you are assumed to knew what it contains. So any reflection on what it does not contain might not be important at this time.
DR. ULMER: Would you repeat that, please?
THE PRESIDENT: You made a remark that you were in perplexity about what was or was not in the affidavit. You are assumed to know what is in the affidavit. So your self-perplexity is of no concern.
DR. ULMER: I see. Well, Your Honor, I am of course also concerned about my personality. In order to show the Tribunal that I never tried to force the witness to give a date which perhaps she did not remember at the time, that is -
THE PRESIDENT: You have just made a statement, "I wonder why", and then you referred to something that was or was not in the affidavit. It was not in the nature of a question to the witness.
DR. ULMER: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that it is a discrepancy between what appears in her copy of the affidavit and what appears in your copy?
DR. ULMER: There is no difference between the witness' copy and mine. That is exactly the same. The one I have is the carbon copy of the typewritten original of this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you began to make a remark, when Mr. Ferencz objected, and that remark seemed to put you into a state of doubt as to why a certain statement was or was not in the affidavit. Whatever is in the affidavit is before you, so you can question on that.
DR. ULMER: That is what I got from the witness and what I discussed with the witness. And I had the impression or else I would not have entered it in the affidavit that this was exactly what the witness is trying to say and wants to say, because she still remembers it. That is all. Perhaps I thought aloud just now. I said I am surprised, I can't Imagine how the 20th of August can get in there because the date, 20 August - this witness was the first witness whom I personally interrogated who mentioned this date, 20 August. On my own, I couldn't suddenly think about this date, 20 August. I remember at the beginning when Mr. Ferencz questioned the witness it was said that before I came the witness was given a list or something like that of what they thought that she would have to testify to as witness or what she could testify to. BY DR. ULMER:
Q Isn't that what it was, Frau Vetter? Frau Six brought something that was written down to you and said they would like or they thought that you could testify as to this?
Q And did you then tell Frau Six, "No, I cannot be witness for all that?
could not be witness for. anteroom of the office of the Advance Commander Moscow? didn't Frau Six cross out a number of things from the notes?
Q And didn't I come then and tell you Frau Six told me that you could not testify on all these points as I had imagined you could do?
Q Did I try in any way to persuade you to say a little more? remained from those notes which Frau Six brought to you originally?
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't quite catch that question and answer.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, I said originally, for the first time, the witness was approached by the wife of the defendant -
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't necessary to repeat all that. Your last question was, did you include in the affidavit anything which was not left on the notes which had been submitted by Frau Six; and she answered, yes.
DR. ULMER: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. My question was meant to say, did I want more from you than was contained in the written notes with which previously Frau Six had approached you, and since those things which you could not remember from those notes exactly were taken out, and what remained -
THE PRESIDENT: But her answer is in the affirmative. Are you aware of that? In effect she says, "Yes, you wanted more than what appeared on those notes." Now, I want you to be aware of the reply.
DR. ULMER: She said I wanted more than what remained? BY DR. ULMER:
Q Is that right, Frau Vetter? Were you trying to say that?
A No, I didn't have the written notes with me.
Q Yes, I know, but I had them with me. I had something in my hand, some documents on which I could interrogate you. And I want to ask you, did I try to ask you about more things than you had told Frau Six about previously, more than you actually remembered?
DR. ULMER: Is this clarified how, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is clarified. I was of the impression that her answer would be no, in view of what had preceded that question, but the answer came out yes. But it is clear now.
DR. ULMER: Perhaps it was owing to a rather complicated manner of putting questions by me. BY DR. ULMER: calendar is divided? Is there a difference between the Russian and German calendar?
A I do not know. There might be. I do not know. Christmas is different from the German one, I believe.
A That is quite possible, I really wouldn't know.
Q You don't know that either? you can recall, when you dared to go back to Smolensk?
A When I dared to go back?
Russians.
Q But surely you left it because fighting and shooting were going on?
Q That is what I mean. Yes, and then you dared to go back when everything was over? much later after Smolensk had been in German hands and the fighting was over -
Q No, you are not supposed to, Frau Vetter. I would only be interested in - did you hear that Smolensk had fallen and that you decided to return.
A Yes, of course. First I saw the German troops in the village and then I quickly returned to the city.
Q Very soon after that you returned to the city. Did you hear from your country men in Smolensk how long the Germans had been there already?
Q That didn't interest you either?
A I do not know, Dr. Ulmer, that is a long time ago.
Q You cannot tell me therefore. Do you remember that after the defendant Sic with his advance kommando Moscow was in Smolensk there was --
A When were they there? When did they come to Smolensk? not to influence you. Let us just assume they were there, and when you came they were already there and now I ask you just one thing: Do you remember that later on a larger unit of such people came, I mean, Nebe, with this staff?
Q You remember that? Six and Nebe both there already.
A I beg your pardon? for or Police Building the first time were Six and Nebe there already or was only Six there and then you came and when you had been there some other unit came under Nebe who, according to you, were accommodated on a floor above.
A Please don't talk to me in such a manner, Dr. Ulmer. I am not a child.
Q I don't know how I could hurt you by the way I am asking then questions. I really don't know.
A I mean, I can't tell you the date when Herr Nebe moved in, but I believe I remember that -- I am always afraid to say days. It might have been weeks, but I know that some different people came who had their offices on a higher floor of the building and I was only told that Nebe -- I never talked to him. I don't know him, but they said that he had a much higher rank, but I never saw him, with Professor Six. come after you were already there?
A No, I don't think so.
Q But when you came there, Nebe was already there? already or not? I know that later on a whole unit moved in but what kind of people they were, I only knew that they were on another floor.
Q Yes, and he lived there too, Herr Nebe?
A He also lived higher, but not where Dr. Augsburg and Professor Six were. Nebe who had a much higher rank? there whom you didn't know and who moved into the NKWD Building.
MR. FERENCZ: We must object to the defense counsel trying to put words in the witness' mouth. The witness has said she does not know and is unable to testify to it.
DR. ULMER: No, your Honor. I have tried to ask witness whether she knows that this unit came and moved in one floor higher. That is my question.
MR. FERENCZ: I must object also to any leading questions being put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: This is your own witness, Dr. Ulmer and you can't cross-examine her nor may you lead here, because she is, in effect, your own witness.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, I don't know whether your Honor is of the opinion that the question has already been answered. Otherwise, I will have to put it again. It is very simple: whether Frau Vetter knows or whether she recalls that after she had arrived, another unit moved into this Police Building.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I told you, yes. They were on a higher floor. They came later. But what....
DR. ULMER: Thank you, your Honor, in that case I don't want to impress the witness any more. I have no further questions. I am sorry that I had to confuse the witness so much.
THE WITNESS: You did not confuse me.
DR. ULMER: I mean pschologically that I had to hurt you. BY MR. FERENCZ: the NKWD Building after you had been there?
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to object, Dr. Ulmer?
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, when I asked this question before, the prosecutor objected to it. Your Honor sustained the objection and the witness answered it. Now I am objecting that the prosecution is putting this question to the witness again, because I want to say that obviously they are trying to make this witness uncertain of what she had already said.
THE PRESIDENT: He is cross-examining, Dr. Ulmer, he is allowed to ask questions of that character. BY MR. FERENCZ:
the NKWD Building after you had been there?
A Well, I merely was able to say that another unit moved in. When I came they weren't there, but whether Nebe was there already, that I cannot know, I merely heard about Herr Nebe that he had a higher rank and he was chief of the people on the floor above us.
Q But it might have been any police unit which moved in?
A Well, I don't know what kind of a unit it was. I cannot tell you.
Q Thank you. Frau Vetter, did Dr. Ulmer tell you at the time you signed the affidavit that the date 20 August was very important?
A Dr. Ulmer did not tell me that the 20th of August was a very important date, in fact, we did not talk about exact dates at all. I only said that Professor Six was good in Russia.
Q Did you hear Dr. Ulmer say just a little while ago that you mentioned the 20th of August as the date? don't know. You must know yourself that if you were a sked dates six or five years ago, no one would be able to answer that, not even what happened a year ago. One can't remember exactly. That is asking too much.
MR. FERENCZ: No further questions, your Honor.
DR. ULMER: Neither have I. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q How many times did you see Professor Six in Smolensk? my personal affairs, not about official matters. Professor Six, I am sure, will be able to say that himself that concerning official matters, concerning the tasks of Professor Six, I personally never talked with Dr. Six. I always had to deal with Dr. Augsburg, and Dr. Augsburg certainly didn't do anybody any harm. I cannot imagine that.
A May I say something more? May I say something more?
A Herr, Dr. Augsburg always said that Professor Six was a very good man and that he was very sorry for him that he had come just into this organization.
Q How many times did you talk to Professor Six?
A Well, I didn't count. How can I say how often?
Q Well, if you don't know, you don't need to say that you do.
A That's right. They did not tell me what I would have to say as a witness. number of people? Generally, how large a city was it?
A No, that I cannot say. I am afraid I can't say exactly.
Q Well, not exactly, but do you have any idea? Can you compare it with some German city, with Stuttgart, for instance?
A It's about the same as -- I am trying to think with which city I could compare it. Perhaps like Ansbach -- Well, I don't know Ansbach so well. Perhaps something the size of Ansbach, or I don't know exactly. It is a provincial town, a small provincial town.
Q Did you associate with the people in the town very much?
Q Well, you didn't live right in Smolensk, did you?
Q No, I mean after the occupation? tion?
A No, during that time I was in the village. I went to the village. I only went to the village while the town was being bombed. Smolensk, did you live in Smolensk?
A When the Germans captured the city? No, at that time I was in the village. I was in the village when the Germans moved in.
Q Then did you come back to live to Smolensk? then I wanted to go back to my apartment. Smolensk? ment?
A No, not at all. The apartment had been looted. The Russians had looted it and there was nothing left.
and once more took up living in the town of Smolensk.
Q You got another apartment?
A Yes, I lived with a woman. I did not know. She took me up.
THE PRESIDENT: Does Counsel have any other questions? BY DR. ULMER (attorney for the defendant Six): the city was occupied -
Q Yes, bombed. Do you know how long you were in the village?
Q Two months? You are quite sure of that, or because you looked in your diary?
Q You know it? BY THE PRESIDENT: in Smolensk, is that correct?
A Yes, yes, that's right. after you had returned to Smolensk, how long you were living there when Professor Six left to go back Germany?
A Well, in the middle of December I returned to Germany. I don't mean returned, but I just came to Germany.
Q No, you didn't understand my question, or perhaps it wasn't put very clearly. You returned to Smolensk to live again after the bombing?
Q Then subsequently Professor Six left Smolensk? Six's departure for Germany?
A I am afraid I can't say exactly. I cannot say whether that was one week or two weeks. I cannot say that.
Q. Well, was it as small a period as one week or two weeks, a week or a fortnight?
A That wasn't a very long period of time. I don't think it was a long period of time.
Q What kind of work did you do in that office?
A In this office? First of all I had to sit in the corridor and then various inhabitants of Smolensk came and I had to interpret their requests, and I had to go to the shoemaker's and to the tailor's with various officers and interpret for them, and then for some time they gave me a great number of musical records, classical music, and I had to sort out various kinds of music folk songs, and at the end, shortly before I left. I worked in the museum together with the Sturmbannfuehrer. That was for quite sometime there. That was the museum of the history of the Party.
Q And what work did Professor Six do during this period?
A Well, I have no idea there. I cannot say that. did you socialize and fraternize with the inhabitants, with the people of Smolensk; did you visit about?
A No, I made no visits. In Smolensk I only lived for one year. I did not have many acquaintances there because we lived a rather quiet life.
Q So that you didn't thoroughly know the population of Smolensk?
A No, I already said that I can't say that.
Q In your affidavit this statement appears, "I also know that Herr Six and his men were very much like by the people of Smolensk." of Smolensk liked Professor Six? discussions which I had with members of the civilian population who were also working in that building, and I saw myself that, for example, professor Six had a lot to do with food and clothes. I saw that myself, and they were always very friendly with the Russians who worked there. of Smolensk, if you visited with them. How could you know whether they liked him or not unless you talked with them, unless you saw them, unless you socialized with them? there. in the office?
Q Were there any Jews in Smolensk?
Q Do you know whether any of this food was fed to the Jews?
A Food? I don't know that, no. that is the reason people liked Professor Six. Did the Jews receive any of this food which was distributed? you mean?
done something, for example, tidied up the room, they treated them very well. Not all officers were so friendly and kind. office that Professor Six would give him an item of food, maybe a loaf of bread or a sandwich, or something like that? Now, is that what you mean? I saw it myself, for example. that a Russian woman was there who used to be a student. I knew her before, and she had lost everything. like all of us there, and Professor Six gave her a wool blanket and a coat and various other things.
Q Did you ever see him give anything like that to a Jew?
Q Did any Jews ever come to the office?
A To the office? I wasn't in the office. I was in the corridor, and the Jews were in the yard.
Q What was in the yard? I didn't catch that.
Q What were the Jews doing in the yard?
Q What were they working at?
Q And what happened to them eventually?
A Well, I did not see that. I only knew that they were in the ghetto. Jews who were clearing up the rubble in the yard?
A I only know one thing really, one girl. She was half-Jewish, and Professor Six knew that, and he did not report her. She was halfJew. That means - you probably know what it is. And she told me about this. Her name was Rose, and she was always very frightened. She always said "Professor Six knows this," and she still remained there.
Q What would have happened had he reported her? reported?
A Well, I don't know. I certainly heard nothing about such matters. wasn't there: it was something that was spoken of in a shisper, as it were?
A Yes, and then they were sent to the ghetto?
Q And what happened to them after they got into the ghetto?
A I wasn't in the ghetto; never in my life have I been in the ghetto. I don't know.
Q Did you hear about Jews being executed anywhere around Smolensk?
A In the vicinity of Smolensk? No, I don't know that. I merely know that this happened later, that Herr Noack had a lot to do with the Jews, but how I never saw. The civilian population knew about that.
Q They did know about some terrible things happening to the Jews?
A Yes. I myself did not see it. ing among the population that terrible things were happening to the Jews? there they had to work. I saw that myself. That the Jews worked I saw myself. But, for example, in the yard, I watched the yard sometimes. There were my girl students there. I never saw that they were beaten in the yard; I never saw that.
Q You never saw them being beaten?
Q Did these people who worked in the yard live in the ghetto; did they go back and from the ghettos?