MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, the witness is on her way down here and will be here in just a moment. I request that the Tribunal spend that minute in just familiarizing themselves with the affidavit so that we can save some time in questioning;the witness will be here in just a moment.
THE PRESIDENT: We will read it as he goes along. We are familiar with it. You might consume this time, Mr. Ferencz-
MR. FERENCZ: In other objections?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, if you have any other objections.
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, Your Honor. There is a group of documents, Exhibits 14 to 21, which according to Dr. Ulmer were offered to show what the defendant's activity was in the SD. The SD was found to be a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal and its criminality is no longer open to question in this case. I therefore object to all the defense counsel's Exhibits 14 through 21 on the grounds that they are immaterial.
DR. ULMER: May I make a statement concerning this objection, that as far as the criminality with regard to membership in a criminal organization, and I wanted to avail myself of the possibility which the main prosecutor in the IMT, Justice Jackson has given that there is no objection for each single individual to justify himself. And of this, I do not want to object, with this affidavit, against the decision of the IMT, but I only want my client to be exonerated of this particular count in the indictment; that is, membership in a criminal organization.
THE PRESIDENT: We have adopted the policy, Dr. Ulmer, of deciding whether these objections are to be upheld after we will have heard all the presentations so that the court takes it under advisement.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, the witness is here and I am prepared to proceed with the questioning.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the oath will be administered. follows:
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Now, you may be seated. BY DR. FERENCZ:
Q. Witness, will you please tell the Tribunal your name and address?
A. Yes, Veronika Vetter, Korntal Stuttgart, Bergstrasse 3.
Q. Are you the same Veronika Vetter who gave an affidavit to be used in this case concerning Dr. Six?
A. I didn't understand it all.
Q. Are you the same Veronika Vetter who gave an affidavit to be used in this case concerning Dr. Six?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal, please, when did you see Professor Six for the first time?
A. On the 23rd I came to Smolensk, on the 23rd of August , that is, 1941.
Q. Was that the first time you saw Dr. Six?
A. What?
Q. Was that the first time you saw Professor Six?
A. Yes, I had never seen Professor Six before that.
Q. That was in Smolensk on the 23rd of August, 1941?
A. Yes, on the 23 August, 1941, I returned to Smolensk from the village.
Q. How do you know that it was on the 23rd of August that you saw Professor Six?
A. That becomes evident from the documents which you have and from my diary and all the other papers.
Q. When did you see Dr. Dix for the last time in Smolensk?
A. I could not say the exact date. It was very brief, the period of my working there. Dr. Six was only in Smolensk for a very short time. I told Dr. Ulmer so.
Q. Now I am going to hand you a document to refresh your memory. Will you tell me if you recognize this document?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you explain what that document is, please?
A. It was made out on the 31 of August, 1941, and was handed over to me by Dr. Mahnke.
Q. And that is some letter addressed to you?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that is made out on the 31st of August 1941. Was Dr. Six there at the time that letter was made out?
A. This certificate I received when he was still there.
Q. And you are sure of that?
A. Yes, I am quite certain.
W. You saw Dr. Six there at that time?
A. Yes, I got all the certificates at that time. That was done at the request of Dr. Six, that they were handed to my by Dr. Mahnke.
Q. Do you know an SS-man named Noack?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his title?
A. One called him the Commissar of Jewish Questions.
Q. During the last few months did anyone come to talk to you concerning Dr. Six?
A. Dr. Ulmer asked my by telegram.
Q. Did anyone else come to see you concerning Dr. Six?
A. Mrs. Six also came to visit me.
Q. And when Mrs. Six came to visit you what did she tell you about Dr. Six?
A. She told me that Professor Six was in Nurnberg and she told me to get in contact with the defense counsel because that was very important, because that was important for the fact for establishing what Professor Six did in Russia. Then I said that I couldn't tell what Professor Six was responsible for in Russia because the archives I never saw in Russia. I only saw them when I a
Q. Just answer the questions, please.
*. Did Mrs. Six show you a letter which she had received from Professor Six?
A. Yes, this letter said that I was to contact Dr. Ulmer and to tell him everything I knew about the activity of Dr. Six in Russia.
Q. And did this letter say that you were to be trained in your answers?
A. No, Dr. Ulmer never asked me to say anything in particular.
Q. My question was, did that letter say that you were to be trained or "Dressiert", the German word, in your answers?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is your answer; did you say yes? Would you please answer the question again?
A. Yes.
Q. And then Dr. Ulmer came to see you, is that correct?
A. No, no, I was requested by telegram from Dr. Ulmer and then I went to Stuttgart.
Q. And what happened when Dr. Ulmer came to see you or you went to see him?
A. I went to see Dr. Ulmer, and Dr. Ulmer asked me what Professor Six had done in Russia, what he had been responsible for, and I told him as to the official duties of Professor Six was very shortly in Russia, for a very short period, I could not say anything about his service and his position. Because I sat in the corridor and therefore I am not aware of what these individual gentlemen did in Russia. I was mainly in contact with Dr. Augsburg and Dr. Mahnke, and Dr. Six, I only saw when he passed me in the passage of when I saw him about matters that concerned me personally.
Q. Did you tell Dr. Ulmer that Six left Smolensk on August, 1941?
A. I could not possibly tell the date as I do not remember it. It was six years ago. I told Dr. Ulmer Six was only for a very short period in Russia, and I remember I saw him leave myself.
I was in the hall when he left.
Q. Witness -
A. And the exact date I could not tell him. That I only established at a later date when I was requested, to do so according to certificates and papers which I still had but which I have since turned over.
Q. Then you did not tell Dr. Ulmer that Six left on the 20th of August?
A. I only said that he had been in Russia for a very short period of time. I don't know about this exact date. It is my fault; I really overlooked it.
Q. Are you sure that you told Dr. Ulmer that you did not know the exact date?
A. I am certain that I told Dr. Ulmer that Professor Six was only in Russia for a very short period of time. That I am absolutely certain of.
Q. I am asking you, are you just as certain that you did not tell Dr. Ulmer or that you did tell Dr. Ulmer that you were not aware of the exact date?
A. I had to tell that to Dr. Ulmer because I did not remember the exact date.
Q. Who dictated the affidavit that you signed, was it you or Dr. Ulmer?
A. No, Dr. Ulmer dictated it to his secretary.
Q. Did you want to make some corrections in that affidavit before you signed it?
A. Yes. Dr. Ulmer read it aloud to me. He told me that I could make any corrections I wanted to make. I only wanted to correct one particular point which was that Six and his men were very well liked in the civilian population. But I said, "Not everybody;
not all of them," but Dr. Six and Dr. Augsburg were very well liked and held in high esteem with the Russian population because they aided them on various occasions. That is quite certain. And the others, Noack and Schroeder, for instance, were extremely moody and they were arrogant and they were not well liked at all.
Q. And when you sought to make this correction, what did Dr. Ulmer say?
A. Dr. Ulmer said that was not one of the essential things because the statement was only to give a picture of Dr. Six as a human being, but the Tribunal is not very interested in the picture of Six as a human being.
Q. So you actually did not make any corrections then?
A. No.
MR. FERENCZ: No further questions, Your Honor.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, may I first ask to be handed the document which was just handed to the witness so I may look at it and know what it is all about?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, please see that Dr. Ulmer has that document.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, this document was put to the witness to refresh her memory on a point of cross-examination. We intend to introduce it in our rebuttal document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Ulmer is certainly entitled to see it now because the witness has referred to it, unless you keep the witness here.
MR. FERENCZ: The witness is here and available for questioning.
THE PRESIDENT: No, I say unless you keep the witnessuntil such time as you offer the document.
MR. FERENCZ: No, Your Honor.
Dr. Ulmer was thereupon handed the document.)
BY DR. ULMER:
Q. My first question to the witness is the following; Has not the witness shown it to me during our discussion, that I even copied it myself and discussed it with her?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, when we read through this document, did I not draw your attention to the fact that this has been made out on the 31st of August, 1941, and did I not remark on the fact that it was made out by Mahnke and handed out by Mahnke?
A. You did not tell me anything about this date, Dr. Ulmer. You only told me that you did not like this document. Why you did not like it, I had no idea, but we never talked about the date at all.
Q. I am now asking you whether I questioned you why this document was signed by Mahnke and not by Six?
A. No, Dr. Ulmer, you didn't ask me that.
Q. Did I not ask you that? You say that I did not let you make any correction in the draft or in the document that you were to sign?
A. Yes, you put it to me, you told me that I might make corrections before I signed. I did not intend to say that you didn't.
Q. Did I not tell you in detail that only what you know yourself you have to state?
A. Yes.
Q. Did I not believe actually that you would be able to certify more than I actually asked you to?
A. What do you mean?
Q. When I arrived I thought perhaps you might know more, tell me you did not know as much as that, because I was only in the anteroom six hours during the day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did I not then immediately take down that you only stayed there for six hours and tell you obviously what should be evident in this document are only facts, facts which you know for certain?
A. Yes.
Q. Concerning the date of the return on the 20th of August, 1941, you say we had not talked about that. But now you say that you knew that the date of return of Six was at the end of August, but not exactly, but the arrival of Six you know to be on the 23rd of August?
A. No, not the arrival of Dr. Six, on the 23rd of August. He returned from the village to Smolensk. That is in my diary. It was the 23rd of August.
Q. But that you saw him for the first time.
A. Yes, ....
Q. You told me, "After the Germans had marched into Smolensk, I, with my twelve-months-old child went to the German office which was in the large police building."
A. Yes. The war broke out in June, and from Juno to August I remained in the village, in Korschena, which is about twenty kilometers from Smolensk. This diary I kept in Korschena, in this village. I have it to this very day. You can see it if you like. And on the 22nd of August I wrote in this diary, "Tomorrow I shall go to Smolensk in order to take my child to the physician." On the 23rd of August, in fact I went to Smolensk. I returned to town. Dr. Ulmer, that is what it says.
Q. What period elapsed between that date - from the date of my wanting to talk to you and the date when I actually talked to you in Stuttgart? What period of time elapsed between the date on which you heard for the first time that I, as a defense counsel of Dr. Six, wanted to discuss matters with you, between that time, and the actual time in which I did discuss matters with you?
A. That I do not understand; I do not know what you mean.
Q. Now, in autumn 1947 you learned from Mrs. Six, I believe, that her husband is a defendant in the Nurnberg trial?
A. Yes, I even read about that in the "Neue Zeitung".
Q. And then you found out that the defense counsel of professor Six wants to call you as a witness?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what period of time elapsed between this time when you found out about this and the period of time when I actually was with you in Stuttgart?
A. Now again you ask about an exact period of time. I could not give you an exact time. It was a period of time, but whether it was a month, or half a month I could not tell you.
Q. Was it a fortnight at least?
A. I do not want to say a date any more. Otherwise I -
Q. Now, during that time did you not have several days and nights to consider this matter?
A. I did not consider anything as I did not know what questions would be asked. Of course, it worried me, and I am extremely sorry that Professor Six -
Q. When you heard surely, that somebody will arrive to examine me as a witness, you, I am sure, thought, now what can I say, what do I know about Six?
A. About these official matters I never thought about. What I can say about Professors Six was about him as a person and as a character and what he had meant to me as a support, and I really did not know what he was made responsible for. If I knew, I would like to say something about it, but I really don't know.
Q. But this is not what the question is all about at the moment. My question at the moment is why, when you learned that some information is required from you about Six, why then did you not look into your diary before?
A. Mrs. Six never told me anything about this date. She did not put the question to me which I was to consider. I did not know in what channel to direct my thought. Dr. Ulmer, I am here for the first time in a courtroom, and I don't really know what it is all about.
Q. Therefore, before I arrived you have not been influenced in any way concerning what you were supposed to testify to?
A. No. We discussed the activity, that is Frau Six and myself, and Frau Six then told me, "Did you see the archives in Russia?" And I said, "No, in Russia I did not see the archives. I saw them in Berlin for the first time, in the library, all these books which were seized by Professor Six, and there during the latter time I worked in the museum." And the pictures which were taken down at the time, they also went to Berlin, but the books I saw for the first time in Berlin.
Q. All this you discussed with Mrs. Six before I arrived to see you?
A. Yes.
Q. And when I arrived were you not surprised that I wanted entirely different information from what you thought I wanted to know?
A. No, you certainly did not force me to do anything at all, Dr. Ulmer. Of course, it is my fault that I do not remember the exact date. I don't know how this comes about, this question about the date.
Q. You don't have to apologize to me. I certainly do not blame you for anything at all. I have no bad conscience in any way.
A. Of course, it is my fault, I have signed it, and I shall never sign anything again.
Q. I don't understand why the 20th of August 1941, could be established as thedate of the return.
A. This is a riddle to me too, Dr. Ulmer, because I am not interested in the 20th of August, I don't know how.
Q. But you certainly think that it was contained in there at the moment when you signed it, not that I put it in myself afterwards?
A. No. I have the original, or at least I have a copy. No, I certainly do not think so. I must beg your pardon.
Q. That is not necessary. Did I bring along a typewritten sheet with me, a document, when I came, or was the content of what we had discussed in peace taken down on a clean white sheet of paper?
A. Well, it was not very quiet because I cried.
Q. I mean as far as the time was concerned. I mean we had time, didn't we? I want to establish the fact, whether I just came to you in a hurry and asked you to sign this immediately or whether it took some time? What, for instance, do you think? How long did we discuss matters?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember the day of the week?
A. No.
Q. No, I don't mean the date. No, for God's sake don't let's have a date. I wonder whether it was Monday or Wednesday?
A. No, I don't remember.
Q. So you don't remember. Well, it was a Sunday.
A. Yes, it must have been a Sunday.
Q. Now, you know that, do you?
A. Well, you say it.
Q. But you do know it, do you?
A. Yes, that was a Sunday.
Q. Thank you.
A. That is all right.
Q. Now, you had a job in Stuttgart?
A. Not any longer now.
Q. But at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. So you had to get leave, because you had to arrange your free time in order to be able to discuss things with me. Now, how long did you take -- a whole morning off?
A. Yes, a whole morning.
Q. And was this morning filled up with this visit in my office?
A. Well, I had to wait for a long time in your office, Dr. Ulmer.
Q. And you say that the 20th of August you know from your diary?
A. Yes, so it says in my diary, the 23rd of August, because I was requested to find the date. I couldn't do so from my memory so I had to look into everything that is left from that time. I really -- I took great care to find out when I returned from the village to the town.
Q. Well, how is it then -- how did you know -- where your husband was -- arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. Your husband before the Germans arrived was arrested by the Russian Police, wasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was it?
A. In Smolensk.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. Of course, I also was in Smolensk.
Q. When your husband had been arrested?
A. I was together with my husband.
Q. But you were not arrested?
A. But I was with my husband he was arrested.
Q. Yes. Well, then your husband was arrested. Now, what did you do?
A. I fainted first of all.
Q. I too.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I must remind the Tribunal that this witness is a defense witness. She may not be impeached, and this is simply an effort on the part of Dr. Ulmer to embarrass and ridicule the witness with irrelevant questions.
DR. ULMER: The question, your Honor, is of considerable importance and I may give the reason for that. I want to show when the witness left to go to the country, to this village from which she says she returned, on the 23rd of August. I do not want to embarrass the witness in any way. I know that the witness is very sensitive. Therefore, I spent two hours in order to be able to deal with her.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Ulmer, you are allowed to question the witness on any subject which has been brought into relief by this affidavit, and we don't think that you have been at all unfair in your questioning of the witness.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, the witness has been asked when her husband was arrested, Her husband was killed.
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't on the right channel.
MR. FERENCZ: The witness was asked when her husband was arrested. We know that her husband was killed. She testified that she fainted at the time, whereupon Dr. Ulmer replied, "He fainted too". I hardly think it proper.
THE PRESIDENT: I wasn't aware of that comment.
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, your Honor, that is what brought about this breakdown of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think this would be a good moment to recess.
The Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.
( A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
DR. ULMER: Your Honor, I am terribly sorry that because of the intensity of my questions, I have to upset the witness; and my remark that I also faint only refers to the fact that in my defense I can do nothing since this situation is changed. That I am powerless, in view of the situation, but I did not want to hurt her feelings. I did refer to the fainting of the witness. That is far from me. I never intended anything of the sort and at the time in Stuttgart I tried to do everything to help the witness to talk to me in a quiet manner. BY DR. ULMER: have the impression that I tried to press you in any way or that, considering all your considerations including religious ones, that you were to testify here on oath, I explained this to you because you would have to testify here under oath. I did not want to make any difficulties for you and over that you did not have to worry as far as your conscience is concerned, there should not be any worldly consequences either?
Q I do not know why you are saying "No" now.
A No, Dr. Ulmer, you did not force me to do anything else.
Q Was I careful, considerate?
Q That is what I am trying to show. Well, unfortunately I have to continue where we stopped. When your husband had been arrested by the Russians before they left, you said, first of all you fainted.
It can't be helped. And when did you leave Smolensk then?
A The following day. My husband was arrested on 26 June and on the 27th I left the city with the child, Dr. Ulmer.
Q. Could you leave the city in an orderly manner? Could you take enough clothes and everything you needed, you had a baby, for the baby as well? Could you take all that along? along. It was fifteen or twenty kilometers from the town and I couldn't take along a good deal of things. did you also take your diary along?
A No, I did not take my diary along. I wrote it in Koschomir, in the village in a little book. Unfortunately my diary was not packed. All this was left at home, what I had written from the beginning. continue to keep this diary? you continued to write in it in Smolensk?
Q One further question. Do you remember that in Smolensk after the Germans arrived there the large cathedral was again opened?
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor. I object to the question. It was not raised in my cross examination and the purpose of this redirect is to clarify questions raised on cross examination.
DR. ULMER: I ask you to admit this question because this question helps us to determine a date. When this cathedral was opened can be found out and that is why I would like to ask the witness about this. I am trying to help the witness and us, in order to get at this difference of these dates. That is why I asked this question.
THE PRESIDENT: If it is for the purpose of establishing the chronology of events, it will be permitted. BY DR. ULMER:
Q Do you know when the day of the "White Mother of God", the patron of the city, is? already celebrate that occasion in the city?
A No, I didn't. At the time I didn't go to church at all. I was in such a state ......
Q I can understand that. But, do you know whether this day had already passed when you were in Smolensk?
A No, I do not know. No, Dr. Ulmer. I was not there.
Q You do not remember exactly when this day was?
A No, I know nothing about the cathedral. I know that it was opened but when this took place I cannot tell you.
Q When you came back, yes. Do you know anything about a birthday of Dr. Six? this birthday. a celebration? What I mean is, do you know that a birthday celebration took place for Professor Six?
A I can't recall that. There were many celebrations there.
chief -
A Yes. Herr Dr. Mahnke said once that it was Dr. Six's birthday.
Q Dr. Mahnke said that on a definite date, one day?
Q While you were in Smolensk with this VKM?
Q Will you please tell us how Dr. Mahnke told you about this? Dr. Mahnke told tou, "Today is Dr. Six's birthday"?
A No, he didn't say "today".
Q What did he say about the birthday of Dr. Six?
Q Do you know whether he said when?
Q I could imagine he was still tired and he said, "I am so tired, because last night we celebrated Six's birthday."
A No. Unfortunately I cannot tell you that. celebration had taken place some time age or that Mahnke simply told you "Just now it happened that we celebrated the birthday"?
A Unfortunately I cannot tell you exactly, Dr. Ulmer. Mahnke about more personal matters.
A Dr. Ulmer, from the very first day I talked with Dr. Mahnke about my personal affairs.
Q About your personal affairs? Yes, I understand that. But, right from the beginning did you understand each other so well that Herr Mahnke could discuss personal affairs which did not concern you? Do you understand, Fau Vetter? If you go to some office in Stuttgart now and ask for something, certainly you are received in a friendly and polite manner, but surely they won't tell you right away that a few days previously they have celebrated the birthday of the chief of the office.