Q. When did you hear about that, Witness?
A. I believe that the Jewish deportations from Franconia and Thuringia started in 1942. For example, one could hear that they were being sent to Riega near Latvia, and I believe that that was in the autumn of 1942 for the first time that one hear the word, "Lublin."
Q. Did you hear anything about what was happening to these people there, if they had to work in factories?
A. I received a postcard from somebody from Lublin who wrote to me that I should send him something.
Q. Witness, when did you hear of the concentration camp of Majdanek?
A. Never.
Q. Witness, when did you hear of the concentration camp of Treblinka?
A. Never.
Q. Witness, when did you about the concentration camp of Belzec?
A. Belzec? Never.
Q. And the last thing I want to ask you, Witness, when did you hear about the concentration camp of Holzec?
A. Never.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you forget Auschwitz and Ravensbrueck?
DR. SEIDL: He already testified about Auschwitz for the first time. However, I did not mention one camp, which is the camp at Ravensbrueck.
THE WITNESS: I never did know the camp -- know anything about the camp of Ravensbrueck.
Q. Did you ever have any tangible idea as to how many inmates were in the concentration camp of Dachau at the various periods of time?
A. One had learned that the camp was very large, and that many many people could be billeted there. However, I only saw now how large the camp actually was.
Q. May I understand your answer , Witness, that you had assumed before that the camp was small?
A. From the outside one could hear of several thousands of people who were lodged in the camp of Dachau. The following then was typical in Germany. Whenever somebody made a statement he had to be careful about it. One would tell him "Shut up, or you will be sent to Dachau."
Q. Did you have any idea in 1939, for instance, as to how many inmates, generally speaking, were lodged in the concentration camps?
A. No, all I know was what it was in Nurnberg and in some of the Franconian towns. Apart from that I know nothing at all.
Q. You never did learn anything about the facts as to how many people were in the camps during the war, and by that I include the foreigners?
A. I was generally heard that the concentration camps extended more and more, and it became easier to be sent into a concentration camp. Of course, it was general knowledge that Dachau was protected with a barbed wire fence which was electrically charged.
Q. You were then asked by the Prosecution when you heard for the first time about the killing of Jews. Did you assume then that those were certain excesses which could actually amount to quite a bit, or did you think that was and extermination measure which was being led by a higher authority?
A. I believe that this is a question for an expert. To assume these things, I have to tell you actual happenings, but, according to my imagination, at least, this was the planned extermination of the Jews, of whom only certain categories like myself were excepted for a certain period of time.
Q. And when did you gain that knowledge? When did you realize that, Witness?
A. As the deportation became more and more frequent, when the people were sent to Riega in Latvia, when I heard about deportations from various cities of Franconia and Thuringia, I believed that there was a certain planned action behind it. I had a very few Jewish friends here. I heard about this one and that one that he was being sent away and, as you asked me that, I would like to add the following: Amongst those Jews who were being deported there were people who were optimists indifferent people and such who were pessimists. The pessimists were thinking they were going to be exterminated; and the optimists thought that they would be given an opportunity to settle down somewhere. The reason for that impression was the following: The Jews who were deported received exact travel orders which they received from the Gestapo in Nurnberg from the Jewish Community here, and those travel orders, it was exactly stated in a good military way that everyone had the right to take along anything from a mattress to the least little thing and also certain suggestions were made as to how many things people could take along. Later it was also learned that those things were taken away from these people on the way to wherever they were going.
One could hear that from information slipping through and from police officials who accompanied the Jews. One could also hear about the conditions found between Nurnberg and Theresienstadt for good pay there by Gestapo officials who were carrying out smuggling activities.
Q. Can I assume that you for personal reasons were particularly interested in finding out of conditions for the reason that you had special possibilities at your disposal and that you were more trusted than other people who were not in this position?
A. The last question is, of course, absolutely correct. Whoever spoke to me privately knew that he was absolutely secure. When I was a worker there were small Anti-Fascist circles amongst the workers and the Gestapo never did find out about it; particularly among the old union workers, who always stuck to their straight way of thinking. Among those circles all those things were privately discussed e.g. in the boiler room of the factory. It is correct, however, that people some people, who had heard the name of Dachau but who knew nothing about it, who wanted to knew nothing about it. I had friends who when I would try to discuss things with them they would stop me because it was more convenient not to know about these things and because it seemed to be so immoral to them that they wanted to know nothing about it.
Q. Witness, you were also asked if the SS and the National Socialist Party, as such, was Anti-Semetic. That question, of course, must be answered, "Yes", because it was part of the party program, but what I would like to ask you is, from the statements made by Hitler before the War or from his statements in his book, "Mein Kampf" or from similar sources, did one gain the impression that the egg of that policy was the extermination of the Jews?
A. This is a very difficult question, which must be answered by an expert. It is even more expert than the one before.
Q. I would appreciate it if you would answer my question, Witness. Could the large mass of population conclude that or would they leave to assume that the whole thing was to eliminate the alleged influence of the Jews in economy and in the free professions and also possibly succeed in having a large part of the Jews emigrate?
A. The elimination of the Jews from certain profession circles was appreciated by certain professional circles, particularly amongst the lawyers and also the physicians. They obviously feared Jewish competence. I remember here of a conversation which I had with the then Martical Socialist Second Burgemeister Kuehn - we knew each other quite well. And he explained this to me in all details. But by and by, however, the measure became worse and worse, and in the end many circles of the population, particularly Christians, in whose circles I was came to assume that the whole idea, was for the extermination of Jews as a source of Christianity and we were convinced that also Christianity was to be eliminated.
Q. Witness, you mentioned the name of Theresienstadt before?
A. Yes.
Q. Theresienstadt, I believe, was apparently a small or a town where Jews were billeted who were considered privileged Jews, is that correct? And is it also correct that these Jews had the possibility to correspond with relatives of theirs who were still in Germany, and is it also correct that no mass executions took place there?
A. As far as Theresienstadt is concerned, I think it should be stated with my story. My own mother at the age of 87, while she was sick, was taken to Theresienstadt. Here I heard, after the end of the war, she died of dysentry. Many people died of dysentry. When I went to Theresienstadt for the first time, the following thing happened. The Jews were told, "You will be sent to some sort of an aged asylum in Theresienstadt." The Jews were required through the man dealing with that question in the Gestapo and through their community to give a large part of their property in order to finance the Jews. However, I learned personally myself from the beginning exactly what it was all about. May I explain to you what happened to my own mother. My mother was a very brave women and she lived in my apartment after I couldn't leave her alone in her own home. Then she had to be deported and transported away with a special chair to a Jewish home. In that Jewish home with the permission of the Gestapo, I was permitted to visit my mother. The people were lying around on the floor. A few Jews had chairs and others were spending the night on the bare floor, crouching there. I admired the brave attitude of those Jews at the time. Then one day I was told that no visits were permitted and that the deportation had started. Certain Jews who were still to remain there after this deportation were used as auxiliary workers and the deportation took place with furniture transport trucks so that the population could not learn about it. It was secretly done. My personal conviction was the following: That was a way to dispose of many people who were 65 years old. I remember then I heard, for instance that people were sent to Theresienstadt Camp who had been wounded during the war, also people who had lost their property during the war and other people who had lost their homes were deported to the East. Against regulations, for instance, people were deported; for instance, Amtsrichter Hesselberger was deported, a major of the Reserve Field Artillery and a later officer of an infantry unit who was simply deported to Theresienstadt because his home was liked by somebody else and it was given to them.
To my surprise, however, many people, a series of people, returned from Theresienstadt. I believe 50 of them returned last week.
Q. In any case, one could not assume that there were mass executions, but it could be assumed particularly that the Jews were being kept there separately, is that correct?
A. One heard later on that deportations took place from Theresienstadt.
Q. You also mentioned, Witness, that you listened to foreign broadcasts, and that, however, you were skeptical about it, because you didn't know what was propaganda and what wasn't? Isn't it a fact that in these reports quite often you saw that certain statements were made which were wrong and very far out of line, because we here, for instance, we heard that in Munich a revolution took place and you could run around the town and you couldn't see anything of the kind. Wasn't this a certain fact which contributed to making many of the population very skeptical?
A. I believe that any propaganda must be used with a skeptical mind.
Q. This is the last question. You testified that from a certain moment on certain happenings became known and did the mass have the possibility to resist and particularly I mean resist successfully?
A. If we the opportunity to do so, we would have done it.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross-examination by other counsel?
BY DR. GAWLIK: (Attorney for the Defendants Volk and Bobermin):
Q. Mr. State Secretary, where were you between 1933 and 1945?
A. Apart from trips which I took I was always in Nurnberg.
Q. All the things which you have stated about the knowledge, does that refer to Nurnberg, only Nurnberg, the area around Nurnberg, or did it also apply to Bavaria or other parts of Germany?
A. My knowledge, generally speaking, refers to Bavaria, particularly Pranconia and Thuringia, just near by, but later on, in 1945, I visited certain relatives of mine in Kempenz.
I also heard about other places, as far as the other places in Germany are concerned, I know nothing about them.
Q. And you don't know about the knowledge of persons who were in Berlin, or in the middle of Germany, or Eastern Prussia?
A. During the first years, after 1933, as long as my daughter still lived in Berlin, I was in Berlin quite often. I heard similar things there, but only up to 1936 or possibly up to 1937, and by that I mean in Berlin, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sachs, do you think that they knew less in the big city of Berlin than they did in the little back woods village of Nurnberg?
THE WITNESS: I knew quite a few people in Berlin. Dachau, of course, was known all over Germany, quite certainly.
THE PRESIDENT: Generally speaking, do you think that the people of Berlin knew less about what was going on in Germany than the people in Nurnberg, or Rothenburg, or Regensburg, or some of the little villages down here?
THE WITNESS: Generally speaking, the Berliner is a man who is very much interested in everything that is going on.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, what do you mean by "similar things"?
A. I don't know in what connection I said that.
Q. You said that between the time 1933 and 1936 you heard similar things in Berlin.
A. Yes, one spoke in Berlin about the arrest of certain members of other political companies, for instance, Social Democrats, Communists and Jews.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, whom do you mean by saying that "we" thought?
A. I mean the circles where I was.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, may I ask you what circles they were?
A. Those in part were certain circles of higher economics.
Q. However, the circle is limited, isn't it, about which yon can testify?
A. Unfortunately, I had no opportunity to get to know the small people in Berlin.
Q. Then you can't tell us about the small people, the great mass of the people?
A. No, I can't.
Q. And the same applies to the other parts, about which you can tell us nothing whatsoever, is that correct?
A. Yes, I can only tell you about Franconia, Bavaria; Franconia in particular, and also Thuringia.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, what can you tell us about how far in 1933 certain pressure was used on young lawyers until they joined the party or one of its affiliated organizations?
A. Nurnberg was a National Socialist State, as it was known. In 1933 until the 1st of October, I was still working in my office in this building. On the 1st of October, they passed on this so-called "Professional Service Law." I was released after 30 years of activity for political reasons, after 30 years of activity. Up until that time, I was working here as a Judge. In 1933 in this building no pressure was exerted on lawyers and prosecutors to join the Party and in 1933 only a very few people joined. The pressure against the lawyers in Nurnberg only took place in 1937.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, you also spoke about the fact that you heard from soldiers who were coming back from the Wehrmacht about the extermination of the Jews in the East. May I ask you, Mr. State Secretary, how many soldiers told you about that?
A. That I can't tell you. From one soldier here and from that soldier or from that soldier's father or from the mother of a soldier who had returned.
Q. Do you agree with me in the statement that those were only single cases?
A. Of course, I couldn't possibly go through the entire German Army and ask them about it.
Q. And you agree with me, Witness, that the Nation of German people did not know these things, or would you say that thought does not refer to this?
A. I don't know. I hope it was not known to them.
Q. Then furthermore, you stated that you had heard that the SS also participated in the excesses. Do you know, Mr. State Secretary, that the SS quite frequently was mistaken for the Gestapo?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you also know, Mr. State Secretary, that this was due to the fact that in the East the members of the Gestapo were the same gray uniform as the members of the Waffen-SS?
A. I don't know actually anything about the difference between the uniforms, but it was known that the SS members who were actually in the SS were also working in the Gestapo office here in Nurnberg. That is all I can tell you about it.
Q. However, you do know this that when the SS man was often taken for the Gestapo. It was very difficult to tell them apart.
A. You could have on one side an SS man who could hold a rank in the SS and on the other hand who could work in the Gestapo.
Q. Do you know, Mr. State Secretary, that an official of the Gestapo Court had the right to wear an SS uniform without being a member of the SS?
A. A Criminal Inspectory told me that on one occasion.
Q. Do you therefore think it possible, Mr. State Secretary, that if you speak about the SS those were possible acts committed by the Gestapo?
A. I believe that the soldiers would know the difference between an Army formation and a Gestapo when they told us these things.
Q. But you couldn't exclude the possibility of such a mix-up?
A. No.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, you also spoke about the foreign broadcasts. Is it correct that listening to foreign broadcasts, enemy broadcasts, during the war was punished severely?
A. Up to the death penalty.
Q. Would you agree with me, Witness, if I told you that due to these severe punishments which were threatened, many people did not listen to those foreign enemy broadcasts?
A. I was surprised again and again how many people were listening to foreign broadcasts, in spite of the severe threats of punishment. I very frequently thought how these people were not careful enough when they told news which came from a foreign broadcast. For instance, I noticed in the plant how many of those members of the factory listened to foreign broadcasts and I believe that the majority of the German people was listening to the foreign broadcasts at all times during the war.
Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. State Secretary, your knowledge about this fact is based on conversations and discussions in the factory and also among the circle of your friends?
A. Yes, quite so.
Q. You stated yourself, Mr. State Secretary, that you had discussions in the factory, in particular with former members of the workers' unions, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you agree with me, Mr. State Secretary, if I told you that your circle of friends is very much interested in political things, or was interested, do you mean people who were in the higher social circles, who were particularly interested in political matters?
A. No, I believe that small people were also interested in politics and sometimes they were even more interested in them than the so-called intelligensia who would possibly shut their ears to whatever was coming through.
Q. Your knowledge, to what circle of persons does it extend?
A. Only to Nurnberg and also it extends to the friends whom I have occasion to visit outside of Nurnberg when I made a trip.
Q. And as far as your knowledge is concerned you only know a small circle of people, because after all, you couldn't certainly know a large one.
A. No, only the circle of my comrades.
Q. Would you agree with me that the circle would amount to about 100 people?
A. That is almost a little bit too little.
Q. Would you say there were 200 at the utmost?
A. This looks to me as if it were dealing with large numbers here. It was just the normal circle of friends.
Q. But you do agree with me, that only a small percentage of the entire population of Nurnberg were concerned, and about the other parts of Germany you know nothing at all, at least we agree in that, don't we?
A. Yes.
DR. GAWLIK: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: No other questions?
DR. SEIDL: (Attorney for Defendant Pohl): Your Honor, I do have a few more short questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they short?
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor, very short.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, did I understand you correctly when I say that you were against the arrest of German citizens for political reasons?
A. Without law, without legality, I believe that every arrest for a political reason is absolutely illegal by any German office, particularly since we have a constitution.
Q. Am I to understand your answer to mean that you are opposed to the general laws which were issued prior to the Act, and that they were known prior to the Act, is that what you mean?
A. That I believe would be quite a subject, and a general subject and exceeds the statute of the International Military Tribunal.
Q. Witness, I am not talking about the statutes of the IMT, but I am thinking about Statute 38, which was issued by the Control Council law and I am also speaking about the law for liberation of National Socialism and Militarism of 6 March 1946. Do you agree with me, Witness, that people are threatened with prosecution here and possibly will lose their entire existence simply for the reason that sometime before they had certain political attitude and idea?
A. Well, I will try to give you a short description. I shall just be short. I don't believe ---
THE PRESIDENT: No, this is not the place for political debates on present politics between you and the witness. We are trying here certain crimes which were committed before 1945. You can get yourself a hall outside and debate with the witness, if you wish, but you can't do it in the hall. Ask him about the matters in the case.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you very much. I will renounce asking any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: If there is no further examination, the witness will be excused as a witness and we will meet at two o'clock.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, with the indulgence of Defense Counsel, I would like to call the Witness Ebbers first. He is an old man and he has been in Nurnberg for a few days and I don't think it will take up more than 20 minutes in the whole.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Have him return at two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 21 August 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, we propose to examine the witness Ebbers now; and after him I take it the witness Schwarz will come, and then next the witness Morgen.
HEINRICH EBBERS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, will you please stand, raise your right hand, and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may sit down.
MR. ROBBINS: About the only purpose for calling this witness is to have him identify the death books that were kept at Wewelsburg. We have made an analysis of those books rather than have the entire thing translated and photostated. That analysis is in the form of an affidavit of one of our analysts, Mr. Young, and is before the Tribunal now, as well as in the hands of defense counsel. I should like to mark that as Exhibit Number 638 for identification. I think it will shorten proceedings some if the witness Ebbers is examined in German by Mr. Ponger, with the permission of the Tribunal.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, will you please give your name to the Tribunal?
A. Heinrich Ebbers.
Q. When were you born?
A. On 22 November 1872.
Q. Where were you born?
A. In Wewelsburg.
Q. Have you been living in Wewelsburg since then?
A. Yes, all the time.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am an agriculturist. I have been a post official and in the registry office.
Q. Since when were you in the registry office?
A. Since 1907.
Q. Are you still there?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the books which are in front of you?
A. Yes, they are my books.
Q. Will you look at them one by one?
A. Certainly. They are all my books.
Q. Are they the death books of Wewelsburg, the Sterbebuecher?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make the entries yourself in the books?
A. Yes. Some of them were perhaps made by my deputy, but most of them were made by me.
Q. Most of the entries were made by you?
A. Yes, they were made by me.
Q. Do they contain the fatalities which occurred in Wewelsburg village?
A. Yes, Wewelsburg.
Q. Does it also contain the fatalities of the concentration camp of Wewelsburg?
A. Yes. Yes, it includes the concentration camp.
Q. How did you know that they were inmates when you made the entries? How did you know that inmates were concerned when you made the entries?
A. Well, the SS people told me and gave me the reports; and I knew them.
Q. Did you make entries in the book itself?
A. Yes. Yes, certainly.
Q. If I understand you correctly, the entries are in the book which were made according to the statements by an SS man of fatalities of the concentration camp Wewelsburg?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you the affidavit which is Exhibit Number 638 in front of you?
A. Yes, I have it now.
Q. Have you read the affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it a correct statement?
A. Yes.
Q While you were working in Wewelsburg did you see inmates?
A Yes.
Q On what occasions?
A When they marched out to their place of work.
Q What did they look like? What did the inmates look like?
A Well, what did they look like? They did not look too good.
Q Can I tell you, what their health was? Were they healthy and strong?
A No, scarcely. No.
Of course, you did not look at that too closely when they were marching.
Q Were they marching?
A Yes, they were marching.
Q Did it ever happen that people were being carried home?
A Yes, I saw on some occasions some people coming back and were carrying exhausted comrades back.
Q Did you observe the inmates as they were working?
A Yes, Oh, yes.
Q Will you describe to the Tribunal what you saw?
A Well, I once passed their place of work, and they were transporting very heavy stones, and somebody who was too slow was hit across the back by the foreman, and fell down, and then he was hit on the mouth. That is what I saw on one occasion.
Q Were such incidents known in the village of Wewelsburg?
A Yes.
Q Were the people discussing them?
A Well, shall we say from time to time, perhaps, yes, naturally, yes. They did not bother too much about these things.
Q Did you ever have a conversation with an SS-man who came from the camp?
A I can not remember at the moment.
Q Do you know SS-man Naase?
A Yes. Naase, he gave me frequent reports.
Q Was he the one who reported the things to you?
A Yes, very frequently. Several people made these reports.
Q Did you ever have a personal conversation with that man?
A Well, on one occasion he told me that, "Ebberg, if only I could set back to my profession I would like to do that, I'd prefer that."
Q He was not enjoying himself being an SS-man, so to speak?
A No. No one else was there. They had to have SS-men.
Q Did you know the inhabitants of Wewelsburg village?
A Yes.
Q Is that how you always knew that somebody died?
A Yes, of course, I was very well informed about it.
Q You knew also when some one died in the concentration camp?
A No, we did not know that. Only when some one came along with a paper, and gave me a report.
Q Otherwise, from the reports you saw that somebody died in the camp?
A Yes.
Q How many people were living in Wewelsburg village?
A I should say approximately 1100 inhabitants.
Q Eleven-hundred inhabitants?
A Yes.
Q Have you any conception how many people were in camp?
A I don't think so. I thought perhaps sometimes on one occasion there was a detail of about two-hundred who would go out to their place of work. On other occasions ten would go out. Small details you see. I don't know any more about that, you see.
Q The total?
A The total I don't know.
Q There were more than a thousand?
A No, no, not that many.
Q Were you not surprised about the large number of fatalities which were reported from the camp?
A Yes, *** it really surprised me considerably, that so many died.
Q Did you ever ask a SS-member why there were so many fatalities?
A Oh, no. I shied off of that. We did not want to go into to many details.
Q Why not?
A It was something different, you see, it was a concentration camp.
Q Were you afraid that you yourself might be committed to the camp?
A Yes. If the worst should come to worst, yes, certainly. Well, perhaps, not too much, but we did not lose too much time over it. We made our entries, and that was that.
Q Will you look at the last book. The one at the bottom.
A That is from Niederhagen.
Q The entries in that book are not made by you?
A No, not me.
Q Were those entries made in the camp itself?
A I should imagine so, yes.
Q And why were you given books, why were you given that book later on?
A When they left, you see, they had to give the book back to me. They were handed back to me then.
Q If I follow you correctly, after the camp was discontinued, the books were handed over to you, is that right?
A Yes, quite.
MR. PONGER: Thank you very much. No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR BERGOLD:
For the defendant Klein.
Q Witness, can you hear me?
A Yes, thank you very much, I can.
Q Will you tell me, when was the camp dissolved?
A In the Spring 1943, April 1943.
Q Thank you very much. Did you know the defendant Horst Klein?
A No, I never heard the name before. No not at that time.
Q Will the defendant Klein please rise. Look at this man (Whereupon the defendant Klein stands up in the Dock)?
A Well, I don't know him, no. I never heard of him and never saw him, no.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions, if the Tribunal please.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other counsel wish to cross examine the witness. All right, thank you very much. You may be excused now.
(witness excused)
MR. ROBBINS: If It please the Tribunal, I have set out just a few of the entries in these books, and we won't have time to translate the books. If I may I would like to put the analyst on the stand who made the affidavit, and to have him read just seven or eight entries.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Robbins, do you have the totals from the book?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, I believe that is in there, isn't it?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: There are some totals here, but I don't knew whether it is the totals in the book or not.
MR. ROBBINS: They were yearly totals, yes?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Don't you think that the affidavit of Mr. Young is sufficient.
MR. ROBBINS: I think it is unless the court is curious about some of the entries.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a summarization of it?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.