Blackmarketeers were also threatened in the same manner. I also heard that such people were sent to concentration camps, but I do not know to which concentration camp. I heard at a later date--but I can't very well make a difference, if it was prior to the arrival occupational force or if it was a little bit later--that one of my friends, in January of 1945, returned from a concentration camp. He had been in Mauthausen, and I actually heard that name for the first time at that time. He was also in Flossenbuerg, which name I also heard for the first time. I couldn't tell you if it was in the month of January, 1945, or if it was after the occupation forces, the American Army, came in. He told me that English soldiers were in the same cell as he was.
Q As prisoners of War?
AAccording to his tale, those were PW's or even possibly PW's who had tried to escape. I couldn't tell you that.
Q And did you hear that people were sent to Auschwitz concentration camp because-
A I heard the name of Auschwitz for the first time in 1944. At that time a few young people were arrested in Nurnberg. According to the National-Socialist laws, those were mixtures in the first degree. That means they had a Jewish father; and, according to the NationalSocialist code, they had a mother of Germany blood. At the time, from those circles it could be heard that the people were being sent to Auschwitz. Prior to that the name of Auschwitz mas unknown to me.
Q Was this violation known as Rassenschande, a mixed-marriage?
A I did not quite understand this question. Would you repeat it, please?
Q Was this violation because of mixed-marriage-inter--marriage between so-called aryans and Jews?
A That is a far far-reaching question, and I believe I would have to speak at some length about it before I could fully answer it.
Q I withdraw the question.
When did you first hear of the Dachau concentration camp?
A I heard about the Dachau concentration camp--one could hear about the Dachau concentration camp quite soon after the fifth of March, 1933.
Q And was it known that this was a very bad camp?
A The camp of Dachau only was known at the time after a short while; some people were released from the camp. Generally speaking, however, those people, when they were asked how life was in the camp, said nothing. They wouldn't answer. Some of them told us that they did not have the right; it had been forbidden to them to tell anything. Others, again, did not comply with that rule, and they stated that in those camps people were shot while attempting to escape. This story was told about a Nurnberg lawyer, that this happened to him. Then, again, one could hear that some of the people were being treated well, and that others, again, were being treated very badly. It was said that the son of a Jew who was considered a Communist had a very bad time there, and that he died as a result of this treatment.
Q Did relatives receive coffins and ashes from the concentration camp?
A Before the war one could hear that both coffins and urns were sent back to relatives. For instance, I remember here a case which happened in Oranienburg. A Nurnberg lawyer, a well-known Social-Democrat, was sent to Oranienburg. At the time I heard the name Oranienburg for the first time. His ashes were sent back. Prior to that, people would say all sorts of things about coffins and urns. People were afraid to speak; for instance, it was forbidden to open coffins which arrived.
Q When did you hear about the concentration camp Oranienburg?
A I heard about Oranienburg concentration camp for the first time from a Nurnberg case. However, I couldn't tell you the year. All I know is that it was before the war. I also heard about Oranienburg through the case of Parson Niemoeller. The Protestant circles spoke all sorts of things about the Parson Niemueller case, namely that Parson Niemueller had been arrested while trying to leave the courtroom. Certain secret leaflets were circulated among Protestant circles which dealt with the fate of Parson Niemueller. Everybody was sorry about him. Later on it was heard that competent circles also within the NSDAP had tried to have him sent to Dachau. At the time it was said that Dachau mas better than Oranienburg.
Q Was Oranienburg considered generally as being one of the worst camps?
A I can't give you any details. It might have been here just general talk about it; maybe at Oranienburg it was very severe and hard.
Q Now, was it generally discussed that Jews were killed in the East by the SS?
AAbout that I can tell you the following. The first time that I heard about it was indirectly, through soldiers who were on leave. Soldiers were returning from leave, and they told us that Jews were being killed on masse in the East. For instance, I can recall one tale whereby somebody told me that Jews were placed in front of ditches and that they were shot. It was also told by SS people who refused to carry out the orders they received. One of the people on leave told me about a small Russian or Polish town were the German army refused to turn over one hundred Jews since they used by the Germans for labor assignment by the German army. They were to be sent away to be exterminated. In spite of protests by the Army, they were transported away.
Q Was it said that the Waffen-SS participated in these killings?
A. I did not quite understand. Would you repeat, please?
THE PRESIDENT: That is pretty leading, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: Excuse me.
THE PRESIDENT: "Did you hear what..."
MR ROBBINS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: "Did you hear what portions of the armed forces were involved.."
Q. What part of the armed forces did you hear took part in these killings in the East?
A. One could hear that during the war.
Q. With reference to what part of the armed forces?
A. I believe I was misunderstood. I never heard that members of the Wehrmacht participated in killings.
Q. Was it the SS?
A. One could hear that it was the SS.
Q. Abd did you hear what part of the SS?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Was it generally known that it was the policy of the Reich to eliminate the Jews from Germany?
A. I read the book Mein Kamph, which unfortunately was not read by many Germans, and also many members of the NSDAP didn't read that book. I understood from that book that Hitler wanted to have all Jews removed, possibly exterminated. At the beginning of the national Socialist regime it was stated that the economic activity if the Jews should be stopped by and by. The measures against the Jews became more and more severe. For instance, the Jewish stores in Nurnberg were boycotted. If people had intentions of buying there, then guards were placed front of the shops to prevent them from coming in there by the use of more or less drastic measures. Then came the 9th of November, 1938, at which time the Jewish stops were destroyed. Then came the law of December, 1938, which destroyed the livelihood of the Jews, economically speaking.
Q. Did you ever hear a statement by Hitler that the Jews would be eliminated from all of Europe.
A. I heard most of Hitler's speeches on the radio. I remember that once, during the war, he used some sort of a term in that connection, and he also added that regardless of how the war turned out.
Q. There was one question which I failed to ask you. I don't know whether it was clear enough or not. Did you hear that imitates were whipped and beaten in concentration camps?
A. I knew nothing about whipping before, but ine could learn through the various channels which existed that inmates were beaten. I heard about whippings for the first time through the men I mentioned before.
Q. Did you ever listen to a foreign radio, Herr Sachs?
A. During the war I listened regularly to foreign broadcasts.
Q. On any of these broadcasts did you hear about gas chambers and gassings in concentration camps?
A. They spoke about evil acts in the concentration camps. However I could never learn what was true and what was propaganda. We did discuss those matters in circles of close friends.
Q. Now, just a few last questions. Was it--Well, I don't believe I got a definite answer to the last question. Did you hear about gassings on the foreign radio?
A. I heard about the fact through the foreign broadcasts, yes. However, I don't know at what time this was.
Q. Was it generally considered that the SS was an anti-semetic organization?
A. I don't know if SS members participated in actions against Jews in Nurnberg. The action of the 9th of November, 1938, according to my knowledge, was carried out by the SA. The chief of the Gestapo, who dealt with all Jewish questions in Nurnberg, was an SS officer.
Q. Did you know members of the police who were transferred to the SS?
A. Yes, indeed. It was known to me, that police officials were, according to their rank, For instance, Criminal Secretary, as an Oberscharfuehrer Scharfuehrer, were transferred in the SS. Some of the people were unhappy about it.
Q. Why were they unhappy about it?
A. The SS had a bad and dangerous reputation.
Q. Was the SS feared by the population, generally?
A. The SS, in many circles of the population, was feared, yes. There was also the trem "Blach Devils." During the war two SS Unterscharfuehrers came into our house as lodgers. My wife became so excited about it, that the SS people were living together with us that it was only with great difficulty that I succeeded in quieting her down. I would like to add that these two SS-Unterscharfuehrers were simple clerks, and that nothing was held against these people personally.
Q. Would you say it was true, as Himmler said, that many people became sick at the sight of the black uniform?
A. This statement is somewhat exaggerated. The people feared the SS; they were afraid of the SS.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL (Counsel for defendant ). Pohl):
Q. Herr State-Secretary, you stated that the arrest of people who were to be sent to a concentration camp took place by the Gestapo?
A. Yes. that it correct.
Q. It is correct that in Bavaria that organization was called "Political Police?"
A. Yes; according to my recollection.
Q. Can you say the WVHA--these defendant were members of that organization? Could you tell me if they had anything to do with the arrest of German citizens or with foreign citizens?
A. Prior to this trial I knew nothing about the Main office.
Q. Prior to this trial you knew nothing about the fact that there was an SS-WVHA?
A. No.
Q. Did the arrest of Germans and foreigners who were sent to concentration camps take place with an arrest warrant or protective custody order?
A. One would hear about protective custody orders, but on could also hear about arrests which took place without any reason. The following thing happened in this building. The judges of the Special Court were afraid to punish one of the defendant as cittee as they wanted to punish him because they feared that they would immediately be taken into protective custody. The words "protective custody" is being used here only as a technical word. As a result of this, people would be punished more severely as originally wanted by decent judges in order to escape the Gastape. It is also known that Niemueller, when he left the court, was arrested by the Gestapo and the Secret State Police.
Q. Witness, do you know that these protective custody orders, as issued by the Gestapo had a legal basis in the regulations of the Reich President for the protection of the State and people, dated the 28 of February 1933?
A. I don't remember the details, and the people did not worry too much about those legal details. The things were looked upon as if the Gestapo was acting that way because, after all, by and by the Gestapo became the highest and the strongest authority in the State.
Q. Did you ever see protective custody orders? Did you ever have one in your hand?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that in the concentration camps there were not only prisoners who had been arrested for political reasons, but also other persons from other circles were being sent there, for instance, professional criminals, homosexuals, anti-social elements, who couldn't pay for their living and similar persons?
A. Yes, that is know to me.
Q. Witness, what concentration camps did you know about until the 1st of September 1939, in other words, until the outbreak of the war?
A. I knew of Dachau and Oranienburg.
Q. When did you hear about the concentration camp of Neuengamme for the first time?
A. I never heard anything about the concentration camp of Neuengamme.
Q. When did you hear for the first time about the concentration camp of Flossenbuerg?
A. I heard about the concentration camp of Flossenbuerg approximately in the month of January, 1945, through the man I mentioned before.
Q. In other words, shortly before the end of the war?
A. However, I heard about a concentration camp near Nurnberg, of which it was allegedly said that it was connected with a concentration camp outside here in Hersbruck near Happurg -- a subterranean factory existed there for airplane parts, and the population had strict instructions and it was absolutely forbidden to speak about the construction and the camp itself. It was reported by people who came from that area and who lived there that the concentration camp inmates were being treated badly. It was said by reliable people that these people were forced to work. I was told of a case, for instance, where a man who could no longer work, because he had a fever, was splashed with cold water, and similar things. I don't know if it is correct that that camp was an outside camp of the camp of Flossenbuerg.
In any case, the informed circles were very excited about the existance of that camp. On the other hand, I have learned through investigation which I made after the war, that many people residing in the vicinity of this camp knew nothing about the camp.
Q. The camp of Flossenbuerg, according to my knowledge of affairs, is near the Bavarian border, towards Czechoslovakia, Therefore, it isn't too far from here and, in spite of that, Witness, you know nothing about it, did you?
A. The back part of the Ober Pfalz was not very well known here in Nurnberg. For instance, I have never before heard the name of Flossenbuerg.
Q. Witness, when did you hear for the first time of the concentration camp Gross-Rosen?
A. Gross-Rosen? Never.
Q. Did you hear of Gross-Rosen for the first time here now?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, when did you first hear of the concentration camp Stutthof?
A. Never.
Q. When did you hear of the concentration camp of Natzweiler?
A. For the first time here.
Q. Witness, when did you hear of the concentration camp of Nordhausen for the first time?
A. Never.
Q. When did you hear about the concentration camp of BergenBelsen?
A. Only after the end of the war.
Q. When did you hear about the concentration camp of Lublin, Witness?
A. I did hear something about it. I heard that Jews from Franconia and Thuringia were being sent to Lublin and one could also hear that they were being sent to some camp and the name of Lublin was mentioned in connection with that.
Q. When did you hear about that, Witness?
A. I believe that the Jewish deportations from Franconia and Thuringia started in 1942. For example, one could hear that they were being sent to Riega near Latvia, and I believe that that was in the autumn of 1942 for the first time that one hear the word, "Lublin."
Q. Did you hear anything about what was happening to these people there, if they had to work in factories?
A. I received a postcard from somebody from Lublin who wrote to me that I should send him something.
Q. Witness, when did you hear of the concentration camp of Majdanek?
A. Never.
Q. Witness, when did you hear of the concentration camp of Treblinka?
A. Never.
Q. Witness, when did you about the concentration camp of Belzec?
A. Belzec? Never.
Q. And the last thing I want to ask you, Witness, when did you hear about the concentration camp of Holzec?
A. Never.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you forget Auschwitz and Ravensbrueck?
DR. SEIDL: He already testified about Auschwitz for the first time. However, I did not mention one camp, which is the camp at Ravensbrueck.
THE WITNESS: I never did know the camp -- know anything about the camp of Ravensbrueck.
Q. Did you ever have any tangible idea as to how many inmates were in the concentration camp of Dachau at the various periods of time?
A. One had learned that the camp was very large, and that many many people could be billeted there. However, I only saw now how large the camp actually was.
Q. May I understand your answer , Witness, that you had assumed before that the camp was small?
A. From the outside one could hear of several thousands of people who were lodged in the camp of Dachau. The following then was typical in Germany. Whenever somebody made a statement he had to be careful about it. One would tell him "Shut up, or you will be sent to Dachau."
Q. Did you have any idea in 1939, for instance, as to how many inmates, generally speaking, were lodged in the concentration camps?
A. No, all I know was what it was in Nurnberg and in some of the Franconian towns. Apart from that I know nothing at all.
Q. You never did learn anything about the facts as to how many people were in the camps during the war, and by that I include the foreigners?
A. I was generally heard that the concentration camps extended more and more, and it became easier to be sent into a concentration camp. Of course, it was general knowledge that Dachau was protected with a barbed wire fence which was electrically charged.
Q. You were then asked by the Prosecution when you heard for the first time about the killing of Jews. Did you assume then that those were certain excesses which could actually amount to quite a bit, or did you think that was and extermination measure which was being led by a higher authority?
A. I believe that this is a question for an expert. To assume these things, I have to tell you actual happenings, but, according to my imagination, at least, this was the planned extermination of the Jews, of whom only certain categories like myself were excepted for a certain period of time.
Q. And when did you gain that knowledge? When did you realize that, Witness?
A. As the deportation became more and more frequent, when the people were sent to Riega in Latvia, when I heard about deportations from various cities of Franconia and Thuringia, I believed that there was a certain planned action behind it. I had a very few Jewish friends here. I heard about this one and that one that he was being sent away and, as you asked me that, I would like to add the following: Amongst those Jews who were being deported there were people who were optimists indifferent people and such who were pessimists. The pessimists were thinking they were going to be exterminated; and the optimists thought that they would be given an opportunity to settle down somewhere. The reason for that impression was the following: The Jews who were deported received exact travel orders which they received from the Gestapo in Nurnberg from the Jewish Community here, and those travel orders, it was exactly stated in a good military way that everyone had the right to take along anything from a mattress to the least little thing and also certain suggestions were made as to how many things people could take along. Later it was also learned that those things were taken away from these people on the way to wherever they were going.
One could hear that from information slipping through and from police officials who accompanied the Jews. One could also hear about the conditions found between Nurnberg and Theresienstadt for good pay there by Gestapo officials who were carrying out smuggling activities.
Q. Can I assume that you for personal reasons were particularly interested in finding out of conditions for the reason that you had special possibilities at your disposal and that you were more trusted than other people who were not in this position?
A. The last question is, of course, absolutely correct. Whoever spoke to me privately knew that he was absolutely secure. When I was a worker there were small Anti-Fascist circles amongst the workers and the Gestapo never did find out about it; particularly among the old union workers, who always stuck to their straight way of thinking. Among those circles all those things were privately discussed e.g. in the boiler room of the factory. It is correct, however, that people some people, who had heard the name of Dachau but who knew nothing about it, who wanted to knew nothing about it. I had friends who when I would try to discuss things with them they would stop me because it was more convenient not to know about these things and because it seemed to be so immoral to them that they wanted to know nothing about it.
Q. Witness, you were also asked if the SS and the National Socialist Party, as such, was Anti-Semetic. That question, of course, must be answered, "Yes", because it was part of the party program, but what I would like to ask you is, from the statements made by Hitler before the War or from his statements in his book, "Mein Kampf" or from similar sources, did one gain the impression that the egg of that policy was the extermination of the Jews?
A. This is a very difficult question, which must be answered by an expert. It is even more expert than the one before.
Q. I would appreciate it if you would answer my question, Witness. Could the large mass of population conclude that or would they leave to assume that the whole thing was to eliminate the alleged influence of the Jews in economy and in the free professions and also possibly succeed in having a large part of the Jews emigrate?
A. The elimination of the Jews from certain profession circles was appreciated by certain professional circles, particularly amongst the lawyers and also the physicians. They obviously feared Jewish competence. I remember here of a conversation which I had with the then Martical Socialist Second Burgemeister Kuehn - we knew each other quite well. And he explained this to me in all details. But by and by, however, the measure became worse and worse, and in the end many circles of the population, particularly Christians, in whose circles I was came to assume that the whole idea, was for the extermination of Jews as a source of Christianity and we were convinced that also Christianity was to be eliminated.
Q. Witness, you mentioned the name of Theresienstadt before?
A. Yes.
Q. Theresienstadt, I believe, was apparently a small or a town where Jews were billeted who were considered privileged Jews, is that correct? And is it also correct that these Jews had the possibility to correspond with relatives of theirs who were still in Germany, and is it also correct that no mass executions took place there?
A. As far as Theresienstadt is concerned, I think it should be stated with my story. My own mother at the age of 87, while she was sick, was taken to Theresienstadt. Here I heard, after the end of the war, she died of dysentry. Many people died of dysentry. When I went to Theresienstadt for the first time, the following thing happened. The Jews were told, "You will be sent to some sort of an aged asylum in Theresienstadt." The Jews were required through the man dealing with that question in the Gestapo and through their community to give a large part of their property in order to finance the Jews. However, I learned personally myself from the beginning exactly what it was all about. May I explain to you what happened to my own mother. My mother was a very brave women and she lived in my apartment after I couldn't leave her alone in her own home. Then she had to be deported and transported away with a special chair to a Jewish home. In that Jewish home with the permission of the Gestapo, I was permitted to visit my mother. The people were lying around on the floor. A few Jews had chairs and others were spending the night on the bare floor, crouching there. I admired the brave attitude of those Jews at the time. Then one day I was told that no visits were permitted and that the deportation had started. Certain Jews who were still to remain there after this deportation were used as auxiliary workers and the deportation took place with furniture transport trucks so that the population could not learn about it. It was secretly done. My personal conviction was the following: That was a way to dispose of many people who were 65 years old. I remember then I heard, for instance that people were sent to Theresienstadt Camp who had been wounded during the war, also people who had lost their property during the war and other people who had lost their homes were deported to the East. Against regulations, for instance, people were deported; for instance, Amtsrichter Hesselberger was deported, a major of the Reserve Field Artillery and a later officer of an infantry unit who was simply deported to Theresienstadt because his home was liked by somebody else and it was given to them.
To my surprise, however, many people, a series of people, returned from Theresienstadt. I believe 50 of them returned last week.
Q. In any case, one could not assume that there were mass executions, but it could be assumed particularly that the Jews were being kept there separately, is that correct?
A. One heard later on that deportations took place from Theresienstadt.
Q. You also mentioned, Witness, that you listened to foreign broadcasts, and that, however, you were skeptical about it, because you didn't know what was propaganda and what wasn't? Isn't it a fact that in these reports quite often you saw that certain statements were made which were wrong and very far out of line, because we here, for instance, we heard that in Munich a revolution took place and you could run around the town and you couldn't see anything of the kind. Wasn't this a certain fact which contributed to making many of the population very skeptical?
A. I believe that any propaganda must be used with a skeptical mind.
Q. This is the last question. You testified that from a certain moment on certain happenings became known and did the mass have the possibility to resist and particularly I mean resist successfully?
A. If we the opportunity to do so, we would have done it.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross-examination by other counsel?
BY DR. GAWLIK: (Attorney for the Defendants Volk and Bobermin):
Q. Mr. State Secretary, where were you between 1933 and 1945?
A. Apart from trips which I took I was always in Nurnberg.
Q. All the things which you have stated about the knowledge, does that refer to Nurnberg, only Nurnberg, the area around Nurnberg, or did it also apply to Bavaria or other parts of Germany?
A. My knowledge, generally speaking, refers to Bavaria, particularly Pranconia and Thuringia, just near by, but later on, in 1945, I visited certain relatives of mine in Kempenz.
I also heard about other places, as far as the other places in Germany are concerned, I know nothing about them.
Q. And you don't know about the knowledge of persons who were in Berlin, or in the middle of Germany, or Eastern Prussia?
A. During the first years, after 1933, as long as my daughter still lived in Berlin, I was in Berlin quite often. I heard similar things there, but only up to 1936 or possibly up to 1937, and by that I mean in Berlin, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sachs, do you think that they knew less in the big city of Berlin than they did in the little back woods village of Nurnberg?
THE WITNESS: I knew quite a few people in Berlin. Dachau, of course, was known all over Germany, quite certainly.
THE PRESIDENT: Generally speaking, do you think that the people of Berlin knew less about what was going on in Germany than the people in Nurnberg, or Rothenburg, or Regensburg, or some of the little villages down here?
THE WITNESS: Generally speaking, the Berliner is a man who is very much interested in everything that is going on.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, what do you mean by "similar things"?
A. I don't know in what connection I said that.
Q. You said that between the time 1933 and 1936 you heard similar things in Berlin.
A. Yes, one spoke in Berlin about the arrest of certain members of other political companies, for instance, Social Democrats, Communists and Jews.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, whom do you mean by saying that "we" thought?
A. I mean the circles where I was.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, may I ask you what circles they were?
A. Those in part were certain circles of higher economics.
Q. However, the circle is limited, isn't it, about which yon can testify?
A. Unfortunately, I had no opportunity to get to know the small people in Berlin.
Q. Then you can't tell us about the small people, the great mass of the people?
A. No, I can't.
Q. And the same applies to the other parts, about which you can tell us nothing whatsoever, is that correct?
A. Yes, I can only tell you about Franconia, Bavaria; Franconia in particular, and also Thuringia.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, what can you tell us about how far in 1933 certain pressure was used on young lawyers until they joined the party or one of its affiliated organizations?
A. Nurnberg was a National Socialist State, as it was known. In 1933 until the 1st of October, I was still working in my office in this building. On the 1st of October, they passed on this so-called "Professional Service Law." I was released after 30 years of activity for political reasons, after 30 years of activity. Up until that time, I was working here as a Judge. In 1933 in this building no pressure was exerted on lawyers and prosecutors to join the Party and in 1933 only a very few people joined. The pressure against the lawyers in Nurnberg only took place in 1937.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, you also spoke about the fact that you heard from soldiers who were coming back from the Wehrmacht about the extermination of the Jews in the East. May I ask you, Mr. State Secretary, how many soldiers told you about that?
A. That I can't tell you. From one soldier here and from that soldier or from that soldier's father or from the mother of a soldier who had returned.
Q. Do you agree with me in the statement that those were only single cases?
A. Of course, I couldn't possibly go through the entire German Army and ask them about it.
Q. And you agree with me, Witness, that the Nation of German people did not know these things, or would you say that thought does not refer to this?
A. I don't know. I hope it was not known to them.
Q. Then furthermore, you stated that you had heard that the SS also participated in the excesses. Do you know, Mr. State Secretary, that the SS quite frequently was mistaken for the Gestapo?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you also know, Mr. State Secretary, that this was due to the fact that in the East the members of the Gestapo were the same gray uniform as the members of the Waffen-SS?
A. I don't know actually anything about the difference between the uniforms, but it was known that the SS members who were actually in the SS were also working in the Gestapo office here in Nurnberg. That is all I can tell you about it.
Q. However, you do know this that when the SS man was often taken for the Gestapo. It was very difficult to tell them apart.
A. You could have on one side an SS man who could hold a rank in the SS and on the other hand who could work in the Gestapo.
Q. Do you know, Mr. State Secretary, that an official of the Gestapo Court had the right to wear an SS uniform without being a member of the SS?
A. A Criminal Inspectory told me that on one occasion.
Q. Do you therefore think it possible, Mr. State Secretary, that if you speak about the SS those were possible acts committed by the Gestapo?