A. No, I don't think I saw him in Zclozow.
Q. Did you see him after this when you were in the gravel pit with the bakery company?
A. I cannot recall that with certainty. It might have been. I was doing guard duty because the Russians had only just left the village. When I was relieved at 2:00 in the morning, I got some bread from the bakery company and went and slept.
Q. That's enough. Did you see Braunagel later on in the town of Tarnopol or Zhitomir?
A. I know I saw him in Zhitomir, yes.
Q. Are you certain?
A. Yes. I know Haupsturmfuehrer Braunagel was there when the bakery company was established.
Q. Was Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel present when the Jews were shot by Oberscharfuehrer Sirth?
A. I did not see that.
Q. You didn't see it?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: If there is no further examination, this witness may be removed.
EXAMINATION
BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q. Witness, were you so unfortunate as to lose your right arm as a result of your service in the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: If the Tribunal please, the prosecution informs me that with the examination of the witness Sauer the evidence against Fanslau and Tschentscher has been concluded. For the defense against this, I have already requested permission to call several witnesses. I have been given information today regarding the veracity of the witness Otto. The evidence in this respect will entail the calling of additional witnesses, the attending physician of the Eglfing Lunatic Asylum the doctor from the penitentiary of Stadelheim, and perhaps also the public prosecutor Freytag from Augsburg.
According to the information which has reached me in writing, in the case of witness Otto we have an ambitious, pseudo-logical psychopath whose imagination is exaggerated and pathological. Therefore, he is in a position to dream himself into important parts and roles; he is no longer aware of the unreality of these fixations; and his actions are being determined by them. According to the information which has reached me from the prosecutor in Augsburg, the release of the witness was to have taken place because the doctor regarded him also as insane and did not believe a single statement of his. The suspicion raised against him was founded only on a self-accusation; Otto himself said that he had committed a murder.
THE PRESIDENT: The point is that you will have a number of other witnesses to produce. Well, that can be done at the proper time.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I hope that I shall have some of them by the beginning of next week. Some others are interned; and some of them are here in the prison
THE PRESIDENT: We understand what your purpose is and your program; and you can undertake it at the proper time.
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honor please, I understand that this is the witness Schwarz who was called here by the Court. If it is possible to do so, we should like to defer his testimony until this afternoon because Dr. Bergold wanted to be here when he was examined.
DR. KRAUSS (for the defendant Tschentscher): May it please the Tribunal, for the defendant Tschentscher, I request that I may be given permission to call a number of witnesses for rebuttal of such facts as have been stated here and permission to call the defendant himself to the witness stand once more.
THE PRESIDENT: What witness do you want to testify now, Mr. Prosecutor? There are two others of whom you have given notice.
MR. FULKERSON: Dr. Camille Sachs is here, if your Honor please, and he is, I believe, now down in Mr. Robbins' office. I can get him up here in five minutes, if the Court please.
THE PRESIDENT: There is also Heinrich Erbers.
MR. FULKERSON: I know about him but I believe it will take a little bit longer to put that organized.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, get either one of them and we'll defer this testimony of Schwarz until this afternoon.
MR. FULKERSON: All right.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you get the other witness here as soon as you can?
MR. FULKERSON: Yes sir.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll just suspend until you have done that. We are not in recess.
MR. FULKERSON: Thank you, sir.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Court, I think the examination of this witness will take about thirty minutes altogether, and so I suggest the Marshal have the Witness Schwarz ready to go on next, and then we will have Ebbers ready.
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, I am afraid Channel No. 3 is out. Will you get the technician, please?
All right, Mr. Robbins, it is all right again.
MR. ROBBINS: And immediately after Schwarz we will have the Witness Ebbers ready to go on, if that meets with counsels' approval.
CAMILLE SACHS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me? I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, I believe a slight mistake was made in the translation of the oath. I believe it should be repeated.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness again repeated the above part of the oath.)
DR. SEIDL (For the Defendant Otto Pohl) Your Honor, the Prosecution now intends to examine State Secretary, Herr Dr. Camille Sachs, as a witness. We were informed that the subject of evidence will be his general knowledge of punishable acts in concentration camps. I object to the examination of this witness at the present moment of the trials, and I also object to the subject which he allegedly will be interrogated on.
The case of the Prosecution has been concluded for weeks and months. The prosecution had an opportunity to introduce all their evidence, and the Prosecution also made use of that privilege. The Prosecution in particular invited witnesses and examined witnesses who had been in concentration camps.
The subject which this witness is to be examined has no relevance whatsoever on the guilt of these defendants, and the point is not to see if there was a general limited knowledge of punishable acts, but the question is if these defendants had a knowledge of said punishable acts, and furthermore the point also is if these defendants did anything or did not do anything which in any way makes them responsible in a punishable manner. What I mean to say by that is it has to be proved that these defendants were as abettors or as instigators, participators in certain acts. This witness apparently knows nothing about that subject.
Apart from that, the Prosecution should have introduced such evidence at a time when the Prosecution was bringing their evidence. In case, however, the Tribunal should assist and permit the examination of this witness, then I would like to make the application as of now that the Defense be given the opportunity to introduce rebuttal witnesses here, and I would like to motion now that the former Ministerial Director, Hans Fritsche, from the Reich Propaganda Ministry, who has a special knowledge of these connections, be permitted to be brought into this Tribunal and be examined by the Defense.
THE PRESIDENT: This proposed testimony is proper in rebuttal of the Defendants' testimony that they knew nothing of the extermination program or of cruelties in concentration camps.
The objection will be overruled. Application for any further witnesses on the part of the Defense will be determined by the Court when presented.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Staatssekretaer, will you give the Court your name?
A Camille , C-a-m-i-l-l-e, Sachs, S-a-c-h-s.
Q When and where were you born, Herr Sachs?
A I was born on the 17th of May, 1880, in Wuerzburg.
Q Since when have you lived in Nurnberg, since what date?
A Since the first of July, 1914.
Q During a period of time you worked in connection with the De-Nazification Court in Nurnberg?
A In the month of September, 1946, I was the President of the Spruchkammer No.V in Nurnberg, and the Chamber of Jurors. That chamber was dissolved. Later on I became the President of the Appeal Chamber in Nurnberg. This was -- Correction, I resigned from that office because Minister Loritz had tried to influence me. That was the month of March, 1947. On the 19th of July, 1947, I was appointed State Secretary of the Ministry for the Liberation and the Ministry for Special Tasks.
Q And you are an attorney, are you, Sir?
A No, in my entire professional life I was either a state's attorney or a judge.
Q And your office was here in this building, is that correct?
A Since 1914 until the outbreak of the war I was a local judge here, and then after 1918, the month of December, 1918, I was out in the field, and again I became in part prosecutor and in part a judge here in Nurnberg.
Q You had an office in Room 125 in this building, I believe?
AAs a prosecutor, yes, that is correct, but I had several offices in this house until 1933.
Q Now, Herr Staatssekretaer, during the war were the methods which the Gestapo used in putting people in concentration camps generally discussed?
A Well, prior to the war and also during the war we spoke about the methods by which people would be sent to the concentration camps.
Q And what was said with reference to the kind of trial they were given?
A These conversations could only take place in a circle of good friends. It was known there that the people suddenly were requested to go and see the Gestapo Headquarters or they were picked up and taken to the Gestapo Headquarters, whereupon they were sent to the concentration camps without trial or without hearing.
Q And for what reason could people be put in concentration camps according to common knowledge?
A From 1933 and on one could hear the following, and it changed once in a while, namely that Socialists, Social Democrats, Communists, Jews, persons who were not politically reliable, denounced persons, were placed in and committed to concentration camps.
Q And could they be put in concentration camps just by reason of a denouncement?
A I don't know how far the Gestapo carried out investigations.
One would hear, however, that people were being sent to concentration camps, or at least removed upon a denunciation.
Q Did you learn that Socialists and Communists were rounded up and put in concentration camps?
A Early -
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I have to object to this question because it is a leading question. The Prosecution shouldn't ask, "What did one hear," but the way he puts it, he places the answer into the witness's mouth.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think the witness has already stated in a previous answer that Socialists, SocialDemocrats, and Communists were sent to concentration camps by the Gestapo.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for Volk and Bobermin): Then I would like to object to that question, Your Honor, because this question is irrelevant and cumulative. This is a cumulative introduction of evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: The proper objection is that the question has already been answered. We will sustain that objection.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Staatssekretaer, in getting the Socialists and Communists into the camp, did you hear that they were just rounded up?
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, again I object to this because the witness can only be asked what he saw. The evidence which is being introduced here is hearsay evidence, and after all we don't know if the persons told him the truth. According to the rules, which I know from the American procedure, evidence in hearsay is not sufficient because it has no probative value.
THE PRESIDENT: That is ordinarily true, Dr. Gawlik, but at this late stage of this trial it is too late to make the objection that hearsay testimony is improper. The ordinance under which this court operates permits such testimony, and directs the Tribunal to determine its value, its weight.
I will have to overrule your objection.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Will you answer the question, witness?
AAfter the fifth of March, 1933, it became known to us that in Nurnberg persons who were known as SocialDemocrats or Communists, as well as Jews, were sent to Dachau concentration camp. After the 20th of July, 1944, it was general knowledge in Nurnberg that again a series of people were being sent to Dachau for similar reasons.
Q Herr Staatssekretaer, I should direct your attention to an incident that occurred in this building on the 9th of November, 1938. Did anything unusual happen at that time?
A On the 9th of November, 1938, the so-called pogrom took place against the Jews. I heard at the time that a series of Jews were sent into that prison behind the building, and I heard of a series of people who were sent into the concentration camp of Dachau. Later on, I heard, in part from the people themselves, that they were again released from Dachau--a few of them told me that they were released from Dachau on the condition that they migrate.
Q And were some of the Jews who were working in this building so arrested?
AAccording to my recollection, two former judges had been arrested at the time.
Q Was it generally discussed that foreigners were in concentration camps--non-Germans?
A I did not know before anything about the fact that foreigners were in the concentration camps. Based on the law for the tasks of national defense, in 1943, I worked in a factory in Nurnberg as a civil worker. In that factory we had Eastern workers and Frenchmen. I heard from those people that foreigners who did not work well enough were sent to a concentration camp.
Blackmarketeers were also threatened in the same manner. I also heard that such people were sent to concentration camps, but I do not know to which concentration camp. I heard at a later date--but I can't very well make a difference, if it was prior to the arrival occupational force or if it was a little bit later--that one of my friends, in January of 1945, returned from a concentration camp. He had been in Mauthausen, and I actually heard that name for the first time at that time. He was also in Flossenbuerg, which name I also heard for the first time. I couldn't tell you if it was in the month of January, 1945, or if it was after the occupation forces, the American Army, came in. He told me that English soldiers were in the same cell as he was.
Q As prisoners of War?
AAccording to his tale, those were PW's or even possibly PW's who had tried to escape. I couldn't tell you that.
Q And did you hear that people were sent to Auschwitz concentration camp because-
A I heard the name of Auschwitz for the first time in 1944. At that time a few young people were arrested in Nurnberg. According to the National-Socialist laws, those were mixtures in the first degree. That means they had a Jewish father; and, according to the NationalSocialist code, they had a mother of Germany blood. At the time, from those circles it could be heard that the people were being sent to Auschwitz. Prior to that the name of Auschwitz mas unknown to me.
Q Was this violation known as Rassenschande, a mixed-marriage?
A I did not quite understand this question. Would you repeat it, please?
Q Was this violation because of mixed-marriage-inter--marriage between so-called aryans and Jews?
A That is a far far-reaching question, and I believe I would have to speak at some length about it before I could fully answer it.
Q I withdraw the question.
When did you first hear of the Dachau concentration camp?
A I heard about the Dachau concentration camp--one could hear about the Dachau concentration camp quite soon after the fifth of March, 1933.
Q And was it known that this was a very bad camp?
A The camp of Dachau only was known at the time after a short while; some people were released from the camp. Generally speaking, however, those people, when they were asked how life was in the camp, said nothing. They wouldn't answer. Some of them told us that they did not have the right; it had been forbidden to them to tell anything. Others, again, did not comply with that rule, and they stated that in those camps people were shot while attempting to escape. This story was told about a Nurnberg lawyer, that this happened to him. Then, again, one could hear that some of the people were being treated well, and that others, again, were being treated very badly. It was said that the son of a Jew who was considered a Communist had a very bad time there, and that he died as a result of this treatment.
Q Did relatives receive coffins and ashes from the concentration camp?
A Before the war one could hear that both coffins and urns were sent back to relatives. For instance, I remember here a case which happened in Oranienburg. A Nurnberg lawyer, a well-known Social-Democrat, was sent to Oranienburg. At the time I heard the name Oranienburg for the first time. His ashes were sent back. Prior to that, people would say all sorts of things about coffins and urns. People were afraid to speak; for instance, it was forbidden to open coffins which arrived.
Q When did you hear about the concentration camp Oranienburg?
A I heard about Oranienburg concentration camp for the first time from a Nurnberg case. However, I couldn't tell you the year. All I know is that it was before the war. I also heard about Oranienburg through the case of Parson Niemoeller. The Protestant circles spoke all sorts of things about the Parson Niemueller case, namely that Parson Niemueller had been arrested while trying to leave the courtroom. Certain secret leaflets were circulated among Protestant circles which dealt with the fate of Parson Niemueller. Everybody was sorry about him. Later on it was heard that competent circles also within the NSDAP had tried to have him sent to Dachau. At the time it was said that Dachau mas better than Oranienburg.
Q Was Oranienburg considered generally as being one of the worst camps?
A I can't give you any details. It might have been here just general talk about it; maybe at Oranienburg it was very severe and hard.
Q Now, was it generally discussed that Jews were killed in the East by the SS?
AAbout that I can tell you the following. The first time that I heard about it was indirectly, through soldiers who were on leave. Soldiers were returning from leave, and they told us that Jews were being killed on masse in the East. For instance, I can recall one tale whereby somebody told me that Jews were placed in front of ditches and that they were shot. It was also told by SS people who refused to carry out the orders they received. One of the people on leave told me about a small Russian or Polish town were the German army refused to turn over one hundred Jews since they used by the Germans for labor assignment by the German army. They were to be sent away to be exterminated. In spite of protests by the Army, they were transported away.
Q Was it said that the Waffen-SS participated in these killings?
A. I did not quite understand. Would you repeat, please?
THE PRESIDENT: That is pretty leading, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: Excuse me.
THE PRESIDENT: "Did you hear what..."
MR ROBBINS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: "Did you hear what portions of the armed forces were involved.."
Q. What part of the armed forces did you hear took part in these killings in the East?
A. One could hear that during the war.
Q. With reference to what part of the armed forces?
A. I believe I was misunderstood. I never heard that members of the Wehrmacht participated in killings.
Q. Was it the SS?
A. One could hear that it was the SS.
Q. Abd did you hear what part of the SS?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Was it generally known that it was the policy of the Reich to eliminate the Jews from Germany?
A. I read the book Mein Kamph, which unfortunately was not read by many Germans, and also many members of the NSDAP didn't read that book. I understood from that book that Hitler wanted to have all Jews removed, possibly exterminated. At the beginning of the national Socialist regime it was stated that the economic activity if the Jews should be stopped by and by. The measures against the Jews became more and more severe. For instance, the Jewish stores in Nurnberg were boycotted. If people had intentions of buying there, then guards were placed front of the shops to prevent them from coming in there by the use of more or less drastic measures. Then came the 9th of November, 1938, at which time the Jewish stops were destroyed. Then came the law of December, 1938, which destroyed the livelihood of the Jews, economically speaking.
Q. Did you ever hear a statement by Hitler that the Jews would be eliminated from all of Europe.
A. I heard most of Hitler's speeches on the radio. I remember that once, during the war, he used some sort of a term in that connection, and he also added that regardless of how the war turned out.
Q. There was one question which I failed to ask you. I don't know whether it was clear enough or not. Did you hear that imitates were whipped and beaten in concentration camps?
A. I knew nothing about whipping before, but ine could learn through the various channels which existed that inmates were beaten. I heard about whippings for the first time through the men I mentioned before.
Q. Did you ever listen to a foreign radio, Herr Sachs?
A. During the war I listened regularly to foreign broadcasts.
Q. On any of these broadcasts did you hear about gas chambers and gassings in concentration camps?
A. They spoke about evil acts in the concentration camps. However I could never learn what was true and what was propaganda. We did discuss those matters in circles of close friends.
Q. Now, just a few last questions. Was it--Well, I don't believe I got a definite answer to the last question. Did you hear about gassings on the foreign radio?
A. I heard about the fact through the foreign broadcasts, yes. However, I don't know at what time this was.
Q. Was it generally considered that the SS was an anti-semetic organization?
A. I don't know if SS members participated in actions against Jews in Nurnberg. The action of the 9th of November, 1938, according to my knowledge, was carried out by the SA. The chief of the Gestapo, who dealt with all Jewish questions in Nurnberg, was an SS officer.
Q. Did you know members of the police who were transferred to the SS?
A. Yes, indeed. It was known to me, that police officials were, according to their rank, For instance, Criminal Secretary, as an Oberscharfuehrer Scharfuehrer, were transferred in the SS. Some of the people were unhappy about it.
Q. Why were they unhappy about it?
A. The SS had a bad and dangerous reputation.
Q. Was the SS feared by the population, generally?
A. The SS, in many circles of the population, was feared, yes. There was also the trem "Blach Devils." During the war two SS Unterscharfuehrers came into our house as lodgers. My wife became so excited about it, that the SS people were living together with us that it was only with great difficulty that I succeeded in quieting her down. I would like to add that these two SS-Unterscharfuehrers were simple clerks, and that nothing was held against these people personally.
Q. Would you say it was true, as Himmler said, that many people became sick at the sight of the black uniform?
A. This statement is somewhat exaggerated. The people feared the SS; they were afraid of the SS.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL (Counsel for defendant ). Pohl):
Q. Herr State-Secretary, you stated that the arrest of people who were to be sent to a concentration camp took place by the Gestapo?
A. Yes. that it correct.
Q. It is correct that in Bavaria that organization was called "Political Police?"
A. Yes; according to my recollection.
Q. Can you say the WVHA--these defendant were members of that organization? Could you tell me if they had anything to do with the arrest of German citizens or with foreign citizens?
A. Prior to this trial I knew nothing about the Main office.
Q. Prior to this trial you knew nothing about the fact that there was an SS-WVHA?
A. No.
Q. Did the arrest of Germans and foreigners who were sent to concentration camps take place with an arrest warrant or protective custody order?
A. One would hear about protective custody orders, but on could also hear about arrests which took place without any reason. The following thing happened in this building. The judges of the Special Court were afraid to punish one of the defendant as cittee as they wanted to punish him because they feared that they would immediately be taken into protective custody. The words "protective custody" is being used here only as a technical word. As a result of this, people would be punished more severely as originally wanted by decent judges in order to escape the Gastape. It is also known that Niemueller, when he left the court, was arrested by the Gestapo and the Secret State Police.
Q. Witness, do you know that these protective custody orders, as issued by the Gestapo had a legal basis in the regulations of the Reich President for the protection of the State and people, dated the 28 of February 1933?
A. I don't remember the details, and the people did not worry too much about those legal details. The things were looked upon as if the Gestapo was acting that way because, after all, by and by the Gestapo became the highest and the strongest authority in the State.
Q. Did you ever see protective custody orders? Did you ever have one in your hand?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that in the concentration camps there were not only prisoners who had been arrested for political reasons, but also other persons from other circles were being sent there, for instance, professional criminals, homosexuals, anti-social elements, who couldn't pay for their living and similar persons?
A. Yes, that is know to me.
Q. Witness, what concentration camps did you know about until the 1st of September 1939, in other words, until the outbreak of the war?
A. I knew of Dachau and Oranienburg.
Q. When did you hear about the concentration camp of Neuengamme for the first time?
A. I never heard anything about the concentration camp of Neuengamme.
Q. When did you hear for the first time about the concentration camp of Flossenbuerg?
A. I heard about the concentration camp of Flossenbuerg approximately in the month of January, 1945, through the man I mentioned before.
Q. In other words, shortly before the end of the war?
A. However, I heard about a concentration camp near Nurnberg, of which it was allegedly said that it was connected with a concentration camp outside here in Hersbruck near Happurg -- a subterranean factory existed there for airplane parts, and the population had strict instructions and it was absolutely forbidden to speak about the construction and the camp itself. It was reported by people who came from that area and who lived there that the concentration camp inmates were being treated badly. It was said by reliable people that these people were forced to work. I was told of a case, for instance, where a man who could no longer work, because he had a fever, was splashed with cold water, and similar things. I don't know if it is correct that that camp was an outside camp of the camp of Flossenbuerg.
In any case, the informed circles were very excited about the existance of that camp. On the other hand, I have learned through investigation which I made after the war, that many people residing in the vicinity of this camp knew nothing about the camp.
Q. The camp of Flossenbuerg, according to my knowledge of affairs, is near the Bavarian border, towards Czechoslovakia, Therefore, it isn't too far from here and, in spite of that, Witness, you know nothing about it, did you?
A. The back part of the Ober Pfalz was not very well known here in Nurnberg. For instance, I have never before heard the name of Flossenbuerg.
Q. Witness, when did you hear for the first time of the concentration camp Gross-Rosen?
A. Gross-Rosen? Never.
Q. Did you hear of Gross-Rosen for the first time here now?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, when did you first hear of the concentration camp Stutthof?
A. Never.
Q. When did you hear of the concentration camp of Natzweiler?
A. For the first time here.
Q. Witness, when did you hear of the concentration camp of Nordhausen for the first time?
A. Never.
Q. When did you hear about the concentration camp of BergenBelsen?
A. Only after the end of the war.
Q. When did you hear about the concentration camp of Lublin, Witness?
A. I did hear something about it. I heard that Jews from Franconia and Thuringia were being sent to Lublin and one could also hear that they were being sent to some camp and the name of Lublin was mentioned in connection with that.