A. No. Last night when I left this court, I want to say to you that by tomorrow -- that last night I thought if I am asked that question tomorrow I must tell this, because yesterday when I was being interrogated by the prosecution I was not asked whether our unit employed Jews and civilians or Ukranians. All I was asked was whether civilians had herded Jews together there.
Q. Herr Sauer, I shall put this to you, of course, I have not got yesterday's record before me, but you told us yesterday in Zhitomir Jews were being employed by the Bakery Column?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said emphatically that the butcher company never employed Jews?
A. In Zhitomir.
Q. Now let's talk about the Zhitomir incident. You saw yourself, Herr Sauer, that Oberscharfuehrer Sirth shot six Jews?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did this happen, locally speaking?
A. In Zhitomir, they were stationed by the parachute barracks, where the tanks were kept. Where we could put our amphibious tanks, and also there were some Russian tanks standing around, and there Oberscharfuehrer was standing in front of a sort of grave, I don't know who dug it, and there these six Jews were being shot.
Q. In that barracks in Zhitomir were there all the units of the butcher battalion stationed?
A. Yes, all units.
Q. All units?
A. Yes, all the units of the Supply Column.
Q. Do you know the reason why these six Jews were shot?
A. No, I don't.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Let me ask you something. With what outfit or what company was Oberscharfuehrer Sirth?
A. Oberscharfuehrer Sirth was in the second company.
Q. Who was the commanding officer of that company?
A. Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel.
Q. Was this company or battalion the one that the defendant Tschentscher was the commanding officer of?
A. Yes, that was the battalion that the defendant Tschentscher was in command of.
Q. Do you know where Tschentscher was at the time the six Jews were shot?
A. Where Tschentscher was? He was in the barracks.
Q. About how far from where the shooting took place?
A. It was a very large barracks, but the vehicles of the first company were farther in the background against the wall of the barracks.
Q. About how far was that shooting away from where Tschentscher was, that is what I want to know. I don't care how large the barracks were.
A. I shall think about this for a moment. Might have been about four hundred meters.
Q. Do you know where the defendant Tschentscher was at that time?
A. I don't. I am very sorry. I don't even know whether he was present or not.
Q. Was any action taken by any one in superior command against Oberscharfuehrer Sirth for the killing of these six Jews?
A. Do you mean whether any of the defendants were present during the execution?
Q. No, no, no. Listen please and get it. Did any officer, Tschentscher, Fanslau, or any superior officer to Sirth, take any action against him for shooting the Jews?
A. No, nothing was done against that.
Q. Was it generally know by the members of the battalion that these Jews were killed there?
A. Yes, that was quite generally known after it happened, within the battalion it was known.
Everyone in the battalion must have known it.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of this Oberscharfuehrer Sirth.
MR. FULKERSON: S-i-r-t-h, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Sirth.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes.
BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q. Herr Sauer, do you know for certain that all units were accommodated in the barracks?
A. Yes. There were men who first of all went to the barracks and discovered a wine depot. They drank wine and got drunk, and they therefore were afterwards punished.
Q. Would it be possible, Herr Sauer, that Tschentscher's company, the Supply Column, in other words, was stationed outside Zhitomir on an estate?
A. No, I saw Tschentscher's car in the main street of the barracks on the right-hand side, parked there, and Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher had told officers, Unterscharfuehrers and Oberscharfuehrers, about the wine, because they had been drinking wine.
Q. You mean he told them not to drink that wine?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. Wasn't the shooting done under a roof?
A. In a barn. Yes, in a barn.
Q. Did you report the incident to your superior officer?
A. No, because most of the company and battalion simply had to know this, because if anything like that happens everybody knows immediately that six Jews were shot, and quite a few people were standing around as spectators.
Q. But you had yourself no reason to go to your company commander, or some other officer, and tell him about the incident?
A. No, because the officers would know about this, too, and if they wanted to rap this Oberscharfuehrer over the knuckles they could have done it later.
Q. Whether Tschentscher was in the barracks that particular moment you don't know?
A. Whether he was in the barracks at this particular moment I don't know. All I saw was his vehicle.
Q. Let me touch upon the incident in Byelaya-Tserkow; he is alleged to have shot a Jew with a gun there. Who told you that?
A. A comrade of the first company told me that.
Q. Were you also told how the incident occurred?
A. How it happened, I was told that Obersturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher took his gun and shot at the Jew and that comrade Stamminger jumped out of his vehicle to get out of the way, or avoid the range, because the shots were aimed in the direction of his car.
Q. Do you know where Stamminger is today?
A. Yes, Stamminger is in Munich.
Q. Where in Munich?
A. In Munich, Richildenstrasse 10.
Q. Should the company have heard about this incident also?
A. Yes.
Q. I shall now touch upon the incident in Fyidorky. Where is Kirsch now, today?
A. As far a I know and have heard from comrades in a letter when I reached home after being in a hospital, Undershcarfuehrer Kirsch, who had been promoted in Russia, must have been killed in fighting in Hungary.
Q. What do you know, and all you know about the Fyidorky incident comes from Kirsch tales?
A. Yes. I do.
Q. Did Kirsch tell you at the time what had happened to the Jews?
A. No. Kirsch returned, and all he told me was that he had been called to see the commanding officer, and he was given an order to shoot the Jew, and he refused to carry out the order, and that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher told him, "If you don't carry out this order, you will be shot."
Q. Do you know, or were you told at that time whether the Jew was actually shot?
A. Whether he was actually shot or not, I don't know. Or if some one else carried out the order I am unable to tell you.
Q. Do you know when Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer took over for Tschentscher?
A. We left Lasowatks more in the direction of Krementshuk, and on that road I left my vehicle, in it I had a machinggun against air raids, which were left behind, and we returned to our unit only four weeks later.
Q. And Schaefer was always with Tsenchtscher during the advance until he finally took over?
A. I am afraid I can not remember that at the moment. I could not tell you that.
Q. So yesterday you said, concerning Tschentscher, what happened in the Supplt Company, that he simply had to become aware of it?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Would this incident also be known to the other companies, the commanding officers of which he was not.
You can think about that before you answer?
A. I don't quite understand what you mean? Do you mean about the shooting of Jews?
Q. I am speaking in general, now. You said yesterday Tschentscher must have known about the things which happened in his company?
A. Yes.
Q. Would this incident also be known to the Bakery Company and the Butcher Platoon?
A. Yes. If something happened, for instance, within the battalion, everybody talked about it very quickly, and the other commanding officers of the various companies simply had to know about them.
Q. Who was the commanding officer of the battalion?
A. Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher.
Q. What was Fanslau?
A. He was the Divisional Administrative Officer of the Wiking Company.
Q. I put to you the fact, witness, that Fanslau as the Administrative Officer of the Division, combined in his capacity also as an officer the commanding officer, as did Tschentscher, Braunagel and Kocholaty were commanding officers of the companies within the battalion?
A. What you mean then, that Tschentscher was in his capacity the commanding officer of the battalion, and he was partly commanding officer of the First Company.
Q. According to your knowledge, Tschentscher as an administrative Directive Officer was also in command of the battalion?
A. I am afraid I don't know.
Q. Herr Otto, what function did you exercise within the Wiking Division--- I am so sorry, Herr Sauer?
A. Don't mention it. Within the battalion I was attached to the Butcher Company as a butcher, and when we were resting and not working, I trained infantry men within the company, in the battalion.
I took a NCO course, and when we were not at work I trained other men in an infantry course.
Q. Did you, Herr Sauer, in your civilian life, ever receive punishment from a court, and do you have a record?
A. No.
Q. While you were in the military service, did you received any punishment?
A. Yes, I was three days in a guardhouse.
Q. What was the reason for that?
A. It happened in Hamburg-Langenhorn.
Q. When was that?
A. In 1940.
DR. KRAUSS: May it please the Court, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination by defense counsel? Mr. Fulkerson.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Witness, I want you to describe what you saw at the slaughter house at Tarnopol in more detail?
A. Yes. Certainly. In the Butcher Company in Tarnopol Jews and civilians that is Ukrainians were employed to clean up the slaughter house. They were also employed in the actual slaughtering of cattle.
Q. Were these Jews there voluntarily, sofar as you know?
A. As far as I know the Jews were brought along in a truck, and these civilians came along voluntarily, because of better food, and the civilians as well as the Jews, they were accommodated in the Administrative wing of the slaughter house.
Q. Did the Jews go along voluntarily?
A. No, the Jews were brought along on a truck, which I saw. I saw how they were being unleaded from the truck. They come from the city.
Q. Whose trucks was that? Was it on army truck?
A. It was a truck of our unit.
Q. Was it a truck of the Butcher Company?
A. From the Butcher Company.
Q. And it was being driven by member of the Butcher company?
A. Yes, member of the Butcher Company and the driver was a member of the Butcher Company, yes.
Q. Were these Jews under guard?
A. They were guarded, yes.
Q. Now were they treated generally, by the guards and people who supervised them?
A. Well, they had to put the work out, a good deal that had to be especially fast; then if they were unable, to work, they were helped along not by beatings, byt they were simply kicked, and so on, as they had to work as fast as they could.
Q. And who was administering the kicks?
A. The men who were there, the guards.
Q. And these guards were alos members of the Butcher Company?
A. Yes, they were members of the Butcher Company.
Q. Now you testified on cross examination about the lectures you were given on the subject of the Jewish question?
A. Yes.
Q. You testified yesterday, I believe, that a suggested solution of the Jewish question was that the Jews should disappear from Germany, is that correct?
A. Yes, the Jews must disappear from Germany.
Q. Well, now how was this disappearance to take place? Was that either implied or directly described?
A. It was not described. All we were told that the Jews were a foreign body within the German community. They must disappear from Germany, ans as I saw it at the time this meant that they must be put into a concentration camp, or into ghettos. No other solution was possible. You could not expel them, for instance, sofar as I know.
Q Then your inference there of whar was said, was that the Jews were to be put into concentration camps and ghettos?
A. Yes. I did not say that Tschentscher said they must be accommodated into concentration camps and ghettos. Only that the Jews were a foreign body within the German community, and they must be eliminated.
Q. Yes. I understand, in other words, all the words that were used actually by Tschentscher were, "The elimination and disappearance," The words you thought of, "Ghetto" and "Concentration camp" naturally were to be inferred from that?
A. Yes. Because sofar as I could remember no other possibility existed in Germany.
Q. Ther never mas any real doubt in your mind that was the way this solution was to be achieved, was it?
A. I am afraid I did not go the last three words.
THE PRESIDENT: I think he already answered that.
MR. FULKERSON: Never mind.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Did you ever hear directly, or by general hearsay, in you unit, while you were in Russia, what was Tschentscher's general attitude towards the Jews?
A. Well, what Tschentscher's general attitude towards the Jews was his attitude, you mean, I am afraid I can not pass judgment on that because I can not say anything on how much Tschentscher hated the Jews, or how far he was interested in having these Jews removed from Germany. His inner attitude and his mentality is something I can not see.
Q. But you said yesterday that there was one outward manifestation that you did notice and that after Tschentscher left your outfit there was no more mistreatment of Jews by its members?
A. No, after Tschentscher left the unit, no further mistreatments of Jews or other people were carried out.
MR. FULKERSON: That's all. Take the witness.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG (for the defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, did you not say yesterday that you were not in the slaughterhouse at Tarnopol at all?
A. No, I never said that.
Q. Did I misunderstand you yesterday? You said yesterday that you had been stationed outside Tarnopol?
A. May I describe that to you once again? We went to Tarnopol; and shortly before we reached it, there was an airraid, We went into the town; and in passing a street of destroyed houses, we dug up a civilian who had been buried in the ruins. On a detour roughly to the left of the town, we camped on a meadow. Some of our company went with their vehicles to the slaughterhouse in order to find out how much it still could be used and to find out what should be done to the slaughterhouse in order to reconstruct it and use it again for our work.
I went there myself on that day and saw that in the slaughterhouse there was still some rotten meat. Everything was very unclean. Then there same a truck of the company filled with Jews and civilians, who were told to clean up the slaughterhouse. I myself went on my vehicle back to the company as I was attached to another detachment in the company.
Q. But you made statements about the treatment of the Jews just now?
A. Yes. I saw how the Jews jumped down from the vehicle.
Q. Oh, that is when you saw it. Now, about Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel, you said you didn't see him in Zclozow?
A. No, I don't think I saw him in Zclozow.
Q. Did you see him after this when you were in the gravel pit with the bakery company?
A. I cannot recall that with certainty. It might have been. I was doing guard duty because the Russians had only just left the village. When I was relieved at 2:00 in the morning, I got some bread from the bakery company and went and slept.
Q. That's enough. Did you see Braunagel later on in the town of Tarnopol or Zhitomir?
A. I know I saw him in Zhitomir, yes.
Q. Are you certain?
A. Yes. I know Haupsturmfuehrer Braunagel was there when the bakery company was established.
Q. Was Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel present when the Jews were shot by Oberscharfuehrer Sirth?
A. I did not see that.
Q. You didn't see it?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: If there is no further examination, this witness may be removed.
EXAMINATION
BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q. Witness, were you so unfortunate as to lose your right arm as a result of your service in the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: If the Tribunal please, the prosecution informs me that with the examination of the witness Sauer the evidence against Fanslau and Tschentscher has been concluded. For the defense against this, I have already requested permission to call several witnesses. I have been given information today regarding the veracity of the witness Otto. The evidence in this respect will entail the calling of additional witnesses, the attending physician of the Eglfing Lunatic Asylum the doctor from the penitentiary of Stadelheim, and perhaps also the public prosecutor Freytag from Augsburg.
According to the information which has reached me in writing, in the case of witness Otto we have an ambitious, pseudo-logical psychopath whose imagination is exaggerated and pathological. Therefore, he is in a position to dream himself into important parts and roles; he is no longer aware of the unreality of these fixations; and his actions are being determined by them. According to the information which has reached me from the prosecutor in Augsburg, the release of the witness was to have taken place because the doctor regarded him also as insane and did not believe a single statement of his. The suspicion raised against him was founded only on a self-accusation; Otto himself said that he had committed a murder.
THE PRESIDENT: The point is that you will have a number of other witnesses to produce. Well, that can be done at the proper time.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I hope that I shall have some of them by the beginning of next week. Some others are interned; and some of them are here in the prison
THE PRESIDENT: We understand what your purpose is and your program; and you can undertake it at the proper time.
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honor please, I understand that this is the witness Schwarz who was called here by the Court. If it is possible to do so, we should like to defer his testimony until this afternoon because Dr. Bergold wanted to be here when he was examined.
DR. KRAUSS (for the defendant Tschentscher): May it please the Tribunal, for the defendant Tschentscher, I request that I may be given permission to call a number of witnesses for rebuttal of such facts as have been stated here and permission to call the defendant himself to the witness stand once more.
THE PRESIDENT: What witness do you want to testify now, Mr. Prosecutor? There are two others of whom you have given notice.
MR. FULKERSON: Dr. Camille Sachs is here, if your Honor please, and he is, I believe, now down in Mr. Robbins' office. I can get him up here in five minutes, if the Court please.
THE PRESIDENT: There is also Heinrich Erbers.
MR. FULKERSON: I know about him but I believe it will take a little bit longer to put that organized.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, get either one of them and we'll defer this testimony of Schwarz until this afternoon.
MR. FULKERSON: All right.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you get the other witness here as soon as you can?
MR. FULKERSON: Yes sir.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll just suspend until you have done that. We are not in recess.
MR. FULKERSON: Thank you, sir.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Court, I think the examination of this witness will take about thirty minutes altogether, and so I suggest the Marshal have the Witness Schwarz ready to go on next, and then we will have Ebbers ready.
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, I am afraid Channel No. 3 is out. Will you get the technician, please?
All right, Mr. Robbins, it is all right again.
MR. ROBBINS: And immediately after Schwarz we will have the Witness Ebbers ready to go on, if that meets with counsels' approval.
CAMILLE SACHS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me? I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, I believe a slight mistake was made in the translation of the oath. I believe it should be repeated.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness again repeated the above part of the oath.)
DR. SEIDL (For the Defendant Otto Pohl) Your Honor, the Prosecution now intends to examine State Secretary, Herr Dr. Camille Sachs, as a witness. We were informed that the subject of evidence will be his general knowledge of punishable acts in concentration camps. I object to the examination of this witness at the present moment of the trials, and I also object to the subject which he allegedly will be interrogated on.
The case of the Prosecution has been concluded for weeks and months. The prosecution had an opportunity to introduce all their evidence, and the Prosecution also made use of that privilege. The Prosecution in particular invited witnesses and examined witnesses who had been in concentration camps.
The subject which this witness is to be examined has no relevance whatsoever on the guilt of these defendants, and the point is not to see if there was a general limited knowledge of punishable acts, but the question is if these defendants had a knowledge of said punishable acts, and furthermore the point also is if these defendants did anything or did not do anything which in any way makes them responsible in a punishable manner. What I mean to say by that is it has to be proved that these defendants were as abettors or as instigators, participators in certain acts. This witness apparently knows nothing about that subject.
Apart from that, the Prosecution should have introduced such evidence at a time when the Prosecution was bringing their evidence. In case, however, the Tribunal should assist and permit the examination of this witness, then I would like to make the application as of now that the Defense be given the opportunity to introduce rebuttal witnesses here, and I would like to motion now that the former Ministerial Director, Hans Fritsche, from the Reich Propaganda Ministry, who has a special knowledge of these connections, be permitted to be brought into this Tribunal and be examined by the Defense.
THE PRESIDENT: This proposed testimony is proper in rebuttal of the Defendants' testimony that they knew nothing of the extermination program or of cruelties in concentration camps.
The objection will be overruled. Application for any further witnesses on the part of the Defense will be determined by the Court when presented.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Staatssekretaer, will you give the Court your name?
A Camille , C-a-m-i-l-l-e, Sachs, S-a-c-h-s.
Q When and where were you born, Herr Sachs?
A I was born on the 17th of May, 1880, in Wuerzburg.
Q Since when have you lived in Nurnberg, since what date?
A Since the first of July, 1914.
Q During a period of time you worked in connection with the De-Nazification Court in Nurnberg?
A In the month of September, 1946, I was the President of the Spruchkammer No.V in Nurnberg, and the Chamber of Jurors. That chamber was dissolved. Later on I became the President of the Appeal Chamber in Nurnberg. This was -- Correction, I resigned from that office because Minister Loritz had tried to influence me. That was the month of March, 1947. On the 19th of July, 1947, I was appointed State Secretary of the Ministry for the Liberation and the Ministry for Special Tasks.
Q And you are an attorney, are you, Sir?
A No, in my entire professional life I was either a state's attorney or a judge.
Q And your office was here in this building, is that correct?
A Since 1914 until the outbreak of the war I was a local judge here, and then after 1918, the month of December, 1918, I was out in the field, and again I became in part prosecutor and in part a judge here in Nurnberg.
Q You had an office in Room 125 in this building, I believe?
AAs a prosecutor, yes, that is correct, but I had several offices in this house until 1933.
Q Now, Herr Staatssekretaer, during the war were the methods which the Gestapo used in putting people in concentration camps generally discussed?
A Well, prior to the war and also during the war we spoke about the methods by which people would be sent to the concentration camps.
Q And what was said with reference to the kind of trial they were given?
A These conversations could only take place in a circle of good friends. It was known there that the people suddenly were requested to go and see the Gestapo Headquarters or they were picked up and taken to the Gestapo Headquarters, whereupon they were sent to the concentration camps without trial or without hearing.
Q And for what reason could people be put in concentration camps according to common knowledge?
A From 1933 and on one could hear the following, and it changed once in a while, namely that Socialists, Social Democrats, Communists, Jews, persons who were not politically reliable, denounced persons, were placed in and committed to concentration camps.
Q And could they be put in concentration camps just by reason of a denouncement?
A I don't know how far the Gestapo carried out investigations.
One would hear, however, that people were being sent to concentration camps, or at least removed upon a denunciation.
Q Did you learn that Socialists and Communists were rounded up and put in concentration camps?
A Early -
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I have to object to this question because it is a leading question. The Prosecution shouldn't ask, "What did one hear," but the way he puts it, he places the answer into the witness's mouth.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think the witness has already stated in a previous answer that Socialists, SocialDemocrats, and Communists were sent to concentration camps by the Gestapo.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for Volk and Bobermin): Then I would like to object to that question, Your Honor, because this question is irrelevant and cumulative. This is a cumulative introduction of evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: The proper objection is that the question has already been answered. We will sustain that objection.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Staatssekretaer, in getting the Socialists and Communists into the camp, did you hear that they were just rounded up?
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, again I object to this because the witness can only be asked what he saw. The evidence which is being introduced here is hearsay evidence, and after all we don't know if the persons told him the truth. According to the rules, which I know from the American procedure, evidence in hearsay is not sufficient because it has no probative value.
THE PRESIDENT: That is ordinarily true, Dr. Gawlik, but at this late stage of this trial it is too late to make the objection that hearsay testimony is improper. The ordinance under which this court operates permits such testimony, and directs the Tribunal to determine its value, its weight.
I will have to overrule your objection.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Will you answer the question, witness?
AAfter the fifth of March, 1933, it became known to us that in Nurnberg persons who were known as SocialDemocrats or Communists, as well as Jews, were sent to Dachau concentration camp. After the 20th of July, 1944, it was general knowledge in Nurnberg that again a series of people were being sent to Dachau for similar reasons.
Q Herr Staatssekretaer, I should direct your attention to an incident that occurred in this building on the 9th of November, 1938. Did anything unusual happen at that time?
A On the 9th of November, 1938, the so-called pogrom took place against the Jews. I heard at the time that a series of Jews were sent into that prison behind the building, and I heard of a series of people who were sent into the concentration camp of Dachau. Later on, I heard, in part from the people themselves, that they were again released from Dachau--a few of them told me that they were released from Dachau on the condition that they migrate.
Q And were some of the Jews who were working in this building so arrested?
AAccording to my recollection, two former judges had been arrested at the time.
Q Was it generally discussed that foreigners were in concentration camps--non-Germans?
A I did not know before anything about the fact that foreigners were in the concentration camps. Based on the law for the tasks of national defense, in 1943, I worked in a factory in Nurnberg as a civil worker. In that factory we had Eastern workers and Frenchmen. I heard from those people that foreigners who did not work well enough were sent to a concentration camp.