A. I believe that the soldiers would know the difference between an Army formation and a Gestapo when they told us these things.
Q. But you couldn't exclude the possibility of such a mix-up?
A. No.
Q. Mr. State Secretary, you also spoke about the foreign broadcasts. Is it correct that listening to foreign broadcasts, enemy broadcasts, during the war was punished severely?
A. Up to the death penalty.
Q. Would you agree with me, Witness, if I told you that due to these severe punishments which were threatened, many people did not listen to those foreign enemy broadcasts?
A. I was surprised again and again how many people were listening to foreign broadcasts, in spite of the severe threats of punishment. I very frequently thought how these people were not careful enough when they told news which came from a foreign broadcast. For instance, I noticed in the plant how many of those members of the factory listened to foreign broadcasts and I believe that the majority of the German people was listening to the foreign broadcasts at all times during the war.
Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. State Secretary, your knowledge about this fact is based on conversations and discussions in the factory and also among the circle of your friends?
A. Yes, quite so.
Q. You stated yourself, Mr. State Secretary, that you had discussions in the factory, in particular with former members of the workers' unions, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you agree with me, Mr. State Secretary, if I told you that your circle of friends is very much interested in political things, or was interested, do you mean people who were in the higher social circles, who were particularly interested in political matters?
A. No, I believe that small people were also interested in politics and sometimes they were even more interested in them than the so-called intelligensia who would possibly shut their ears to whatever was coming through.
Q. Your knowledge, to what circle of persons does it extend?
A. Only to Nurnberg and also it extends to the friends whom I have occasion to visit outside of Nurnberg when I made a trip.
Q. And as far as your knowledge is concerned you only know a small circle of people, because after all, you couldn't certainly know a large one.
A. No, only the circle of my comrades.
Q. Would you agree with me that the circle would amount to about 100 people?
A. That is almost a little bit too little.
Q. Would you say there were 200 at the utmost?
A. This looks to me as if it were dealing with large numbers here. It was just the normal circle of friends.
Q. But you do agree with me, that only a small percentage of the entire population of Nurnberg were concerned, and about the other parts of Germany you know nothing at all, at least we agree in that, don't we?
A. Yes.
DR. GAWLIK: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: No other questions?
DR. SEIDL: (Attorney for Defendant Pohl): Your Honor, I do have a few more short questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they short?
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor, very short.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, did I understand you correctly when I say that you were against the arrest of German citizens for political reasons?
A. Without law, without legality, I believe that every arrest for a political reason is absolutely illegal by any German office, particularly since we have a constitution.
Q. Am I to understand your answer to mean that you are opposed to the general laws which were issued prior to the Act, and that they were known prior to the Act, is that what you mean?
A. That I believe would be quite a subject, and a general subject and exceeds the statute of the International Military Tribunal.
Q. Witness, I am not talking about the statutes of the IMT, but I am thinking about Statute 38, which was issued by the Control Council law and I am also speaking about the law for liberation of National Socialism and Militarism of 6 March 1946. Do you agree with me, Witness, that people are threatened with prosecution here and possibly will lose their entire existence simply for the reason that sometime before they had certain political attitude and idea?
A. Well, I will try to give you a short description. I shall just be short. I don't believe ---
THE PRESIDENT: No, this is not the place for political debates on present politics between you and the witness. We are trying here certain crimes which were committed before 1945. You can get yourself a hall outside and debate with the witness, if you wish, but you can't do it in the hall. Ask him about the matters in the case.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you very much. I will renounce asking any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: If there is no further examination, the witness will be excused as a witness and we will meet at two o'clock.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, with the indulgence of Defense Counsel, I would like to call the Witness Ebbers first. He is an old man and he has been in Nurnberg for a few days and I don't think it will take up more than 20 minutes in the whole.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Have him return at two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 21 August 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, we propose to examine the witness Ebbers now; and after him I take it the witness Schwarz will come, and then next the witness Morgen.
HEINRICH EBBERS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, will you please stand, raise your right hand, and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may sit down.
MR. ROBBINS: About the only purpose for calling this witness is to have him identify the death books that were kept at Wewelsburg. We have made an analysis of those books rather than have the entire thing translated and photostated. That analysis is in the form of an affidavit of one of our analysts, Mr. Young, and is before the Tribunal now, as well as in the hands of defense counsel. I should like to mark that as Exhibit Number 638 for identification. I think it will shorten proceedings some if the witness Ebbers is examined in German by Mr. Ponger, with the permission of the Tribunal.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PONGER:
Q. Witness, will you please give your name to the Tribunal?
A. Heinrich Ebbers.
Q. When were you born?
A. On 22 November 1872.
Q. Where were you born?
A. In Wewelsburg.
Q. Have you been living in Wewelsburg since then?
A. Yes, all the time.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am an agriculturist. I have been a post official and in the registry office.
Q. Since when were you in the registry office?
A. Since 1907.
Q. Are you still there?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the books which are in front of you?
A. Yes, they are my books.
Q. Will you look at them one by one?
A. Certainly. They are all my books.
Q. Are they the death books of Wewelsburg, the Sterbebuecher?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make the entries yourself in the books?
A. Yes. Some of them were perhaps made by my deputy, but most of them were made by me.
Q. Most of the entries were made by you?
A. Yes, they were made by me.
Q. Do they contain the fatalities which occurred in Wewelsburg village?
A. Yes, Wewelsburg.
Q. Does it also contain the fatalities of the concentration camp of Wewelsburg?
A. Yes. Yes, it includes the concentration camp.
Q. How did you know that they were inmates when you made the entries? How did you know that inmates were concerned when you made the entries?
A. Well, the SS people told me and gave me the reports; and I knew them.
Q. Did you make entries in the book itself?
A. Yes. Yes, certainly.
Q. If I understand you correctly, the entries are in the book which were made according to the statements by an SS man of fatalities of the concentration camp Wewelsburg?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you the affidavit which is Exhibit Number 638 in front of you?
A. Yes, I have it now.
Q. Have you read the affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it a correct statement?
A. Yes.
Q While you were working in Wewelsburg did you see inmates?
A Yes.
Q On what occasions?
A When they marched out to their place of work.
Q What did they look like? What did the inmates look like?
A Well, what did they look like? They did not look too good.
Q Can I tell you, what their health was? Were they healthy and strong?
A No, scarcely. No.
Of course, you did not look at that too closely when they were marching.
Q Were they marching?
A Yes, they were marching.
Q Did it ever happen that people were being carried home?
A Yes, I saw on some occasions some people coming back and were carrying exhausted comrades back.
Q Did you observe the inmates as they were working?
A Yes, Oh, yes.
Q Will you describe to the Tribunal what you saw?
A Well, I once passed their place of work, and they were transporting very heavy stones, and somebody who was too slow was hit across the back by the foreman, and fell down, and then he was hit on the mouth. That is what I saw on one occasion.
Q Were such incidents known in the village of Wewelsburg?
A Yes.
Q Were the people discussing them?
A Well, shall we say from time to time, perhaps, yes, naturally, yes. They did not bother too much about these things.
Q Did you ever have a conversation with an SS-man who came from the camp?
A I can not remember at the moment.
Q Do you know SS-man Naase?
A Yes. Naase, he gave me frequent reports.
Q Was he the one who reported the things to you?
A Yes, very frequently. Several people made these reports.
Q Did you ever have a personal conversation with that man?
A Well, on one occasion he told me that, "Ebberg, if only I could set back to my profession I would like to do that, I'd prefer that."
Q He was not enjoying himself being an SS-man, so to speak?
A No. No one else was there. They had to have SS-men.
Q Did you know the inhabitants of Wewelsburg village?
A Yes.
Q Is that how you always knew that somebody died?
A Yes, of course, I was very well informed about it.
Q You knew also when some one died in the concentration camp?
A No, we did not know that. Only when some one came along with a paper, and gave me a report.
Q Otherwise, from the reports you saw that somebody died in the camp?
A Yes.
Q How many people were living in Wewelsburg village?
A I should say approximately 1100 inhabitants.
Q Eleven-hundred inhabitants?
A Yes.
Q Have you any conception how many people were in camp?
A I don't think so. I thought perhaps sometimes on one occasion there was a detail of about two-hundred who would go out to their place of work. On other occasions ten would go out. Small details you see. I don't know any more about that, you see.
Q The total?
A The total I don't know.
Q There were more than a thousand?
A No, no, not that many.
Q Were you not surprised about the large number of fatalities which were reported from the camp?
A Yes, *** it really surprised me considerably, that so many died.
Q Did you ever ask a SS-member why there were so many fatalities?
A Oh, no. I shied off of that. We did not want to go into to many details.
Q Why not?
A It was something different, you see, it was a concentration camp.
Q Were you afraid that you yourself might be committed to the camp?
A Yes. If the worst should come to worst, yes, certainly. Well, perhaps, not too much, but we did not lose too much time over it. We made our entries, and that was that.
Q Will you look at the last book. The one at the bottom.
A That is from Niederhagen.
Q The entries in that book are not made by you?
A No, not me.
Q Were those entries made in the camp itself?
A I should imagine so, yes.
Q And why were you given books, why were you given that book later on?
A When they left, you see, they had to give the book back to me. They were handed back to me then.
Q If I follow you correctly, after the camp was discontinued, the books were handed over to you, is that right?
A Yes, quite.
MR. PONGER: Thank you very much. No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR BERGOLD:
For the defendant Klein.
Q Witness, can you hear me?
A Yes, thank you very much, I can.
Q Will you tell me, when was the camp dissolved?
A In the Spring 1943, April 1943.
Q Thank you very much. Did you know the defendant Horst Klein?
A No, I never heard the name before. No not at that time.
Q Will the defendant Klein please rise. Look at this man (Whereupon the defendant Klein stands up in the Dock)?
A Well, I don't know him, no. I never heard of him and never saw him, no.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions, if the Tribunal please.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other counsel wish to cross examine the witness. All right, thank you very much. You may be excused now.
(witness excused)
MR. ROBBINS: If It please the Tribunal, I have set out just a few of the entries in these books, and we won't have time to translate the books. If I may I would like to put the analyst on the stand who made the affidavit, and to have him read just seven or eight entries.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Robbins, do you have the totals from the book?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, I believe that is in there, isn't it?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: There are some totals here, but I don't knew whether it is the totals in the book or not.
MR. ROBBINS: They were yearly totals, yes?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Don't you think that the affidavit of Mr. Young is sufficient.
MR. ROBBINS: I think it is unless the court is curious about some of the entries.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a summarization of it?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Schwartz is next.
MR ROBBINS: I would like to say to Dr. Bergold, I am not marking these books for identification, because they are the criminals and have to be returned to Wewelsburg, but if you would like to check the books against the affidavit, it will be here at your disposal.
DR BERGOLD: Thank you very much.
MR. ROBBINS: I think some one had better send word to Dr. Hoffman perhaps the Marshal, Pat Morgen will be next to take the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Was the witness sworn?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you raise your right hand and repeat after me, please.
HEINRICH SCHWARTZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: Now will you give us the reference to these affidavits, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: The affidavit of Schwartz, offered by the Prosecution, is NO-2169, and it is the last document in Book 17.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Exhibit what?
MR. ROBBINS: It is the last document in book 17. I don't have the number of the exhibit.
THE PRESIDENT: It should be Exhibit No. 456.
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to tell the court that my affidavit of Schwartz in my Document Book is Exhibit No. 13, on page 32 of my document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Does this witness have the German translation of the original German of these two instruments before him?
THE WITNESS: No. I have nothing here at all.
DR. BERGOLD: I only got one copy but I am quite happy to give it to him.
THE PRESIDENT: What number document is that, Dr. Bergold? What number?
DR. BERGOLD: 13, page 17.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, have you before you now two affidavits, both signed by you?
A Yes.
Q One is Exhibit 456, which was signed on 25 February of this year at Dachau?
A Yes.
Q And the other is Defense Document 13, which was signed by you on 19 June 1947?
A Yes.
Q Have you read over these two affidavits since you have come back to Nurnberg?
A Yes.
Q Well, it must be apparent to you that they contradict each other. That they do not agree?
A In the case of my first affidavit, it is stated that I had not noticed these things myself but they had been told me.
Q Well, now you go ahead and explain how you happened to sign these two affidavits which are opposites, which say different things. Just tell us how you happened to do that?
A When I was interrogated on the first time, I was asked about the camp, and I said I could not say anything because I had been there for only a fortnight. I had been away from active service then because I was ill. Then I was told that I must have heard a few things; I replied, yes, I think I've heard things but they were not my own observations. It was a case of this gem put into my mouth, as it were. I did not know, for instance, as I see here, that sofar as the conditions of the superior officers, or the channels of commands in Wewelsburg were concerned.
Then I said that Sturmbannfuehrer Klein was permanently at the castle. I said so because the other guards had told me this. Whether he was present when I was there, I don't know.
Q Did you ever see Klein? Did you ever see him?
A The photograph was shown me in Dachau.
Q No, that is not what I asked you. Did you ever see the man Kleim himself?
A I can not remember, because after I left Wewelsburg I saw a great many of SS-officers, because I was at the cadet school at Brunswick, and there were very many officers present, who were not of the training personnel, but came and lectured.
Q I don't know yet whether you ever saw Klein at Wewelsburg?
A I did not see him in Wewelsburg.
Q Then how did you pick out his picture?
A That photograph some one gave to me, and I said, that man who is in this photograph I know. I was shown a few other pictures, among whom I recognized a few, and then that picture was shown to me again, and then the name was mentioned.
Q Well, had you ever seen the man whose picture was shown to you at Wewelsburg?
A I know that he seemed to be known to me, and that is when I said so.
Q Well, when you recognized him, did you recognize him as some one you had seen at Wewelsburg?
A I don't know. Because I did not say I knew the man from Wewelsburg. I simply said I knew the man. He seemed to be known to me.
Q Can you say where you had seen him?
A No, nor did I say so.
Q You mean his face was familiar to you but you could not associate him with my place?
A No. I simply wanted to say that the face seemed familiar to me.
Q Did you recognize the name of the man in the photograph? Did you remember his name?
A No. The name was then shown to me.
Q You did not know what his name was until it was suggested to you?
A I did not know it up until that time until it was shown to me.
Q During your stay at Wewelsburg, how long were you in the hospital?
A The fortnight I spent in Wewelsburg I spent in the hospital.
Q The entire time?
A Yes. I did not do any service there at all.
Q Well, were you out of the hospital?
AAt the most on the way from the hospital to the canteen for the troops.
Q Well, you say in your affidavit that you saw a trolley with a number of coffins, and that you knew that the coffins contained the bodies of men who had perished in the Wewelsburg plant?
A From the window of the hospital I saw that trolley, and I made inquiries. I asked what sort of trolley this was, and who were in the coffins.
Q Did you only see coffins on one occasion?
A Yes, I only saw it on one occasion.
Q About how many coffins did you see?
A I am afraid I could not tell you. It was a trolley. I think it fully laden. I could not tell you for sure.
Q Well, you think there would be twenty-five, one hundred, or two-hundred? How many about?
A Well, I don't know how much the trolley can carry.
Q Not knowing what you mean by a trolley, I don't know either. Were there more than two?
A Yes. It was a covered truck, a solid cover over the truck.
Q How many coffins would it hold?
A Well, I think there were at least ten, but I really cannot commit myself to a definite figure.
Q Would it be less than fifty?
A Less than fifty, certainly.
Q You think about ten, perhaps more or less?
A Might have been a few more or a few less, I could not tell you.
Q All right. Would you state that the prisoners looked very under-nourished? Did you see the prisoners while you were there?
A Yes, I saw on two occasions, perhaps, detachments as they went out to work, or as they came back from it.
Q Whatever detachments went past the hospital window?
A They did pass the hospital, or when I was in the canteen.
Q Were you confined to your bed in the hospital, or were you able to walk around?
A I could walk around.
Q What was your trouble. What was your illness?
A Rheumatism and Sciatica, and I was being treated for it.
Q You did not do much walking then, did you?
A No, I did not do much walking.
Q You stated that every day a detachment was sent out to collect nettles, stinging nettles, which were used to make soup for the prisoners. Do you know that yourself?
A I myself saw inmates at the fence plucking nettles. I asked why they were doing it, and I was told that a detachment was being sent out to pick the nettles for the food of the inmates.
Q How did you know that the prisoners were transferred to the special working squad in the quarry?
A I was told that.
Q And you said that in the quarries they had to do very heavy physical work, and were worked to death, that is, they broke down and had to be killed. How did you know that?
A I was told that the people in those details had to do very heavy work, and that some had collapsed. Whether they were liquidated, or had to be liquidated, is a deduction I might call it.
Q Whether they were worked to death, is that a deduction, or did somebody tell you that?
A Nobody has told me that. That is also a deduction.
Q Now you say liquidated prisoners, that is, dead prisoners were sent in coffins to Giessen to be burned?
A Yes, that is a mistake on my part. It was not Giessen, but Bielefeld. I must have confused the two placed at the time. I believe what I was thinking about was -- it must have been Bielefeld and not Giessen.
Q That is a very unimportant mistake. How did you know that prisoners who had died were sent anywhere to be burned?
A Because I saw the car and I asked where was it going.
Q Then some one told you that was what was happening?
A Yes, somebody told me that.
Q. You state that prisoners were punished by bemas of the so-called back for breach of camp rules?
A. Yes that is another thing they told me, that the prisoners were being beaten.
Q. Did you ever see any prisoners beaten?
A. No.
Q. Or did you ever see any prisoners that had been beaten and bore brusides or marks?
A. No. I was not in the camp itself, therefore I was quite unable to see it myself.
Q. Well, you state in your affidavit that one of the causes of death of the prisoners in Wewelsburg was an extermination of prisoners who were unpopular by order of Sturmbannfuehrer Klein and Hauptsturmfuehrer Haas. Did you see that?
A. No. I saw nothing of that.
Q. That is what you were told?
A. Yes. On what order this was done, I can't say whether Klein was the man who was in authority, I said already that the channel of command was completely unknown to me at the time.
Q. Were you ever up the castle at Wewelsburg?
A. No.
Q. So of your own knowledge you don't know whether Klein or anybody else lived there?
A. No, I don't know that from my own knowledge.
Q. But some of the guards told you that Klein lived there?
A. Yes. Whether he lived up there or whether he was really merely staying, I don't know. All I was told was that Sturmbannfuehrer Klein was at the castle.
Q. Then nobody even told you that he lived there permanently?
A. Nobody told me that, no.
Q. That is what it says in your affidavit.
A. It says there he was permanently in Wewelsburg. It is a long time ago that I was there, and I really cannot remember too precisely whether he was there permanently, residing there, merely staying there, or had his offices for his business purposes there
Q. You don't know anything about if yourself except what you were told?
A. Yes, I stated time and time again that I do not know these things from my own observation, but they were told me.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Where are you now; where are you living?
A. In Leipzig.
Q. You are not a prisoner?
A. No. I am interned.
Q. You are interned by whom?
A. I have been arrested automatically because I was a member of the Allgemeine SS, and until the day before yesterday I was in the German camof Heilbronn.
Q. You signed this affidavit freely and voluntarily, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to correct it and make it speak the truth before you signed it?
A. I was never asked nor was I asked afterwards until Dr. Bergold came to Dachau.
Q. I didn't ask you anything about that. I asked you when you you signed the affidavit, the first one, did you have an opportunity of reading it and making any corrections that you desired to make if it was not correct before you signed it?
A. Yes, I was given that opportunity.
Q. Well, why didn't you make it speak the truth before you signed it?
A. I said - or he wrote everything down after he had asked me questions, and as I said before, in certain cases he simply spoke the sentences and I said, "Yes". I read everything through, and on that occasion these contradictions did not strike me at all.
Q. Why didn't you point out and say, "This is not correct; I don't know this; strike that out"?
A. Well, I told the gentleman that I don't know these things from my own observations, that they were told me.
Q. Why didn't you put that in your affidavit? And isn't this the truth, that affidavit you first signed is the truth, and then you were told that it was very damaging to somebody, and you could help that person by saying that you didn't know this of your own knowledge, and therefore that is the reason you are saying that now?
A. No, nobody told me that, by that statement I was incriminating somebody. When I read this through and signed it, it did not occur to me that sentence was missing or the remark was missing, that I had not observed these things myself, but they had been told to me, and later on I said so, that in my first interrogation what I had told the gentleman was not observations of my own.
Q. You said that when you signed the first affidavit you did not know that you were incriminating anyone, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Then when did you find out by signing this affidavit that you were incriminating someone?
A. After I read it I thought all these things over carefully, and I thought, you have made statement there that these are not observations of your own, but I should not remember whether that sentence was contained in my affidavit which I have mentioned just now, and I began to feel that I did not incriminate anybody, I merely stated what I had been told, I had been asked about it.
Q. Who asked you about it?
A. The gentlemen who interrogated me.
Q. Who was that.