Q. Has he been at the same time commander of the supply battalion, which is the case in each division.
A. As far as I know, at the parade Square at Dachau and later on at the Heuberg when the administrative services were assembled, Sturmbannfuehrer Fanslau was not reported to. However, the senior officer of the entire administrative service there reported to Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, in order to explain the matter to the Tribunal, I want to state that it is undisputed that Fanslau was the divisional administrative officer and at the same time he was the commanding officer of the administrative battalion, as this is done in all divisions; and Tschentscher, as chief of the supply office, deputized for him. Here when Tschentscher is called the battalion commander it is completely wrong in this connection. Because the witness is now an expert in this field and because he cannot be an expert in this field, I shall not ask any further questions of the witness. However, I object to the sketch which was made being used for any purpose since the person apparently did not have any expert knowledge and I believe that it should not be used.
A. In connection with this I want to say that Tschentscher was considered to be the commanding officer of the supply unit and that he is being considered that today, too, even by the witnesses Jackl, Mueller, Beirer.
MR. FULKERSEN: Would it clear up the difficulty which Dr. Krauss raises if Tschentscher were called simply the highest ranking senior officer in the battalion? It seems to me that we are quibbling about nomenclature here and that this is a distinction without a difference.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, the difficulty can be removed very easily. Tschentscher was the senior officer of the three company chiefs and with that he was a deputy of the battalion commander Fanslau. This description alone is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, let it go at that. There is so little difference that we are not interested.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Witness, you testified yesterday that you had been arrested on suspicion of murder. Where and when was this murder supposed to have been committed?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Counsel, the man was never convicted; was never indicted, and I wouldn't try that murder case as a sideline here if I were you.
MR. FULKERSEN: All right, sir. Don't answer the question, witness. I withdraw it.
Q. Now, you testified that some of the men who were involved in this massacre at Dnjepropetrowsk were members of Einsatzkommando 6. Was this the first conduct that you had with the Einsatzkommando in Russia?
A. That was the first personal contact which I had with these Einsatzkommandos and with this particular Kommando.
Q. Well, as you had moved on through Russia before you got to Dnjepropetrowsk, had you heard about the presence of Einsatzgruppen or Einsatzkommando in the vicinity behing you or where you were?
A. Of Einsatzkommando 6 and its activities I had already heard with regard to the city of Kirowograd.
Q. And it was at Kirowograd that you heard of the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommando first?
A. I heard about the activities of the Einsatzkommando 6 when I was at Kirowograd. What I heard was with just what measures Einsatz6 dealt in Kirowograd.
Q. Witness, do you know what the relationship between your own outfit and the Einsatzgruppen was so far as their appearance at a certain place and time was concerned?
A. A regular contact between the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommando of the SA and Waffen SS and the SS Division "Wiking" did not directly exist. However, guard detachments from the individual companies of the Wiking Division and other divisions were organized, and they were furnished for service with these Einsatzgruppen.
Q. Now, you were asked this morning what you would say if Mueller, Jackl, and Schaefer came into the courtroom and testified on certain things. You know all those men, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. They were in your outfit in the Wiking Division?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have reason to believe that they personally have witnessed some of the scenes that you have described here on the witness stand?
A. I do not only have the impression that they had seen such orders and the execution of these orders, but I am quite certain that they know something about it.
Q. Well, you were in the interrogation here in this courthouse together with them, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. They didn't know anything about it then, did they?
A. I don't understand you just now. They didn't know anything about it at the time, and they excused themselves from the fact that they could not refresh their memories; that they could not recall the matter, on the ground that they were overburdened with work when they were with the butchers' platoon. When my first trial took place, the witness Jackl was there as one of the guards; and he couldn't even remember that incident.
Q. So that if the memories of these witnesses, Mueller, Jackl, and Schaefer, don't improve considerably since the last time you have seen them, it's your opinion that their memories are not very reliable?
A. I would state it in that way, and I should like to prove that these people could not have been overburdened with work because they had time twice twenty-four hours that means from one shift to another. They were only incharge of the billets.
Q. All right. Now, while you say that these people saw some of these things, what did Mueller see? What did Mueller Know about it?
A. Mueller first of all must know something about this order since he was the first sergeant of a platoon.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I want to object to the question as to what Mueller knew of the happenings because this witness cannot confirm to us just what knowledge Mueller had about the happenings.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right; but this witness can state whether Mueller was there and whether he was in a position to see.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I don't have any objection to this form of the question as it is asked now; but in the way the question was asked first, it is not admissible.
THE PRESIDENT: You are quite right about it.
MR. FULKERSEN: All right.
Q. Then, Witness, describe the incidents where Mueller was present.
A. I don't think that Mueller was directly present when the incidents took place at Zclozow. However, as far as I could see, when we passed by there slowly, he turned around because near there was the site where the Ukrainians had allegedly been shot by the Red Army and the Jews had to dig them out. Mueller turned away when he saw that.
Q. In other words, Mueller was present when --
A. Mueller must have known that these Ukrainians were being dug up again by Jews.
Q. At what other times was Mueller present when such incidents as this took place?
A. That would have been, for example, the case of Tarnopol when in the morning in question I turned over the cattle to the slaughterhouse. Mueller was standing there; and consequently he also had to see that the Jews had to work under sadistic excesses and torture on the part of men in the butchers' platoon, when they had to clean the slaughterhouse.
Q. All right. Now, what did Jackl know? At what time was Jackl present when such things occurred?
A. All the butchers and in particular the foreman of the butchers were present when the cattle were unloaded. They saw the incidents that took place there. In spite of the fact that I tried to refresh his memory by giving a detailed description, Jackl couldn't remember anything during the interrogation. He was even on the vehicle, on my vehicle, when, these cattle were unloaded. Therefore, I would like to claim that Jackl, if he does not have a bad memory, intentionally does not want to recall things of that kind and such activities on the part of the butchers' platoon because perhaps he still is disgusted about it even today.
Q. Now, were there any other incidents that Jackl must have known about by reason of his having been there and seen them?
A. The stories that were told by the butchers' company must have gone a long way, and everybody must have known about it. If one or two persons can recall it today, then the others must have known it at the time, and they must be able to recall it today also.
Q. What about Schaefer? What incidents must he have known about by reason of his having been there and seen them?
A. Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer was located at Zclozow when Tschentscher set fire to the synagogue; and then he was there on the following day. On the following morning he must have heard about the execution of three Jews.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I ask permission to determine whether the witness is using a note upon which the answers he is now giving to us are written down and whether he is just reading from that note. I don't think that such a procedure is appropriate.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, all the defendants have gone to the witness stand loaded with notes.
You can ask him about it as soon as the prosecution is finished. Ask him what he has in his hand.
MR. FULKERSEN: He can go over there now, if he'd like to, if your Honor please. He must be prescient if he has any notes.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you like to go and look, Dr. Krauss? You may go look and see what he has, if you wish.
BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Witness, what are those papers that you have in your hand?
A. Last night on the basis of the claim by the defense counsel Krauss I worked on this in order to give a rebuttal to his claims.
Q. On what?
A. It is also clearly shown by my affidavit for the prosecution what I said at the time; and I am preparing myself also so that there will not be any delay in the trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Good. You see, this witness has no documents, so he has to have some papers of his own. Are you satisfied with what you saw, Dr. Krauss?
DR. KRAUSS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
BY MR FULKERSON:
Q What is the subject matter of those notes?
THE PRESIDENT: We don't care about that.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now continue with your description of what Schaefer saw, and what he has known about it?
A On the following morning Schaefer must have seen how the three Jews were shot.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: Dr. Stackelberg for the defendant Fanslau. Your Honor, I object to the form of this answer, "He must have known."
THE PRESIDENT: We understand. What did Schaefer see. What did he observe or hear?
A If now on the day before the excess against the three Jews, this announcement of Weckerle's death had not taken place, Senn and Schmidbauer would have to have been placed before a court martial, and since this did not happen, it now becomes evident that an official persmission for excesses against Jews existed and that never a chief of staff was to read such an announcement, but the commanding officer or officers were to read that order to the people, and that were Tschentscher and Fanslau.
Q But you say that the last time that you heard these people questioned about these incidents, they had completely forgotten them all?
A These incidents were talked about for a long period of time, and I say that I doubt very much about the extremely bad ability of the witnesses Jackl, Mueller and Schaefer to recollect these things.
Q Now this morning in the course of Dr. Krauss' cross-examination, I was rather confused by the questioning.
Did I understand your testimony formerly to have been that the incident you described in which Tschentscher shot the Jews happened where? Where was the place where this incident took place, where Techentscher shot a Jew?
A That was in Byclaya-Tsorkow.
Q Where was that that Tschentscher pulled his pistol out and threatened SS man Kirch?
A It was Byclaya-Tserkow.
Q How far apart were those two towns?
A When a person has reported to the commanding officer-
Q No, No. I mean how far apart are the places Byelaya and Tserkow?
A Oh, I see. I cannot give you the exact number of kilometers it is from each town.
Q They are some distant apart, are they not?
A Yes.
Q And these are two different distinct incidents?
A Yes.
Q Now, witness, just in conclusion, there is a stock question that seems to be used here, and I put it to you just to see what happens. Did you have the impression while you were in the SS that you belonged to a criminal organization?
A From the very beginning I had the impression that I belonged to a criminal organization, and when I had my last leave from the Wehrmacht I told that to my mother. Once she told me after my confession 'if it is found out that you try to desert, then you will be sent to a concentration camp, or you will be sent to an educational center, or you might be sent to the SS. Then I would commit insubordination, that is what I replied my mother.
In May 1941 at the Heuberg, Untersturmfuehrer Kochaldi declared my being unable to join the Waffen-SS because on Sunday-noon I did not turn up when orders were given out; he and the Stabsscharfuehrer then assumed that I did this because I was hurt about the death of my mother.
Q What is your impression of the general character and moral standing of the officers and men of the SS?
A In this connection I would like to refer to the statistics of the Punitive Camp, and these statistics took place at Dachau. In regard to the non-commissioned officers and the men -
DR. STACKELBERG: Your Honor, I object to this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. von Stackelberg, you are better late than never. Your objection is even good now.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: Is it sustained, Your Honor?
THY PRESIDENT: Yes, "cum laude".
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, I would like to ask a question in regard to the court martial proceedings, wherein I understand that you were acquitted on the charge of desertion, or on another item, and you were finally convicted because you had resisted conscription in the first instance, is that correct?
A From the evidence I carry with me, and from certificates which I carry, and from witness testimony, and, especially, from the testimony of the SS-man who was present, that I shot myself in the hand, it became evident -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now, just a minute. There were three charges, self-inflicted wound, AWOL, and resisting conscription. You were exonerated on the first two charges, and convicted on the third, is that correct?
A The prosecutor had received denounciation from the woman who had lived in the house --
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just a moment. Let's dispose of this quickly. There were three charges against you and you were exonerated on two and convicted on the third, is that correct?
MR. FULKERSON: Your Honor, perhaps he does not recognize the fact that you are talking about court-martial but that you are talking about this business at Munich.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: As a result of a court-martial proceedings, you were sentenced to serve imprisonment?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And I understood you to say that you were given this sentence because you had originally attempted to evade military service?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am asking you if that is what you said?
THE WITNESS: With regard to my attempt to evade military service I did not state anything at all. When the charge was read out to me according to which I had evaded military service, I said this was incorrect, because I had served with the Wehrmacht.
JUDGE MUSMANNO What were you convicted of?
THE WITNESS: Because I had tried to evade military service.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes. And had they not gone into that very subject when you were originally put into the service?
THE WITNESS: No, they did not; I was conscripted into the Wehrmacht, and then I was with Infantry Reserve Battalion 469.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. I am only confused as to why after you had already served in the army, and in this SS-Division, that they then brought up a charge which they know about originally.
THE WITNESS: I don't understand your question, Sir.
MR. ROBBINS: Mr. Wolf will put this question in German, and perhaps we can get it correctly in the German.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I would be grateful if he would.
THE WITNESS: OK, go ahead.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: He is hard of hearing.
BY mR. WOLF:
Q Judge Musmanno asked how it came about, since you at that time already were conscripted into service, because you tried to evade the military service, that you did not know anything about this procedure until suddenly you were placed before a court-martial?
A Well, when I came in the SS I could only assume just why I had been transferred to the SS. In the court-martial proceedings my denunciation was read by which it became evident I had acted so not by reason of a youthful folly but that I arbitrarily dodged the military service, and then I was put in Protective Custody as a result of the denunciation.
Q Therefore, up to the time until you were placed before the court-martial, your evading the military service was only considered as having been a youthful folly, and, then it only became acute when you were placed before a court-martial?
A Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Now just one other point. I questioned you yesterday when you were relating the episode of Tschentscher having fired a pistol which he had borrowed from some one else, I asked you why he did not use his own pistol; and I understand, if I recall, that your reply was that he was wearing a long winter overcoat, and perhaps for that reason he was unable to get to it quickly. Now today, when Dr. Krauss question you on that subject, you said he did not have his pistol. Is that or is it not a contradiction?
A No, it is not a contradiction. Yesterday I expressed myself to the effect that I did not know whether Tschentscher carried a pistol on him or not.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Didn't you speak about a long coat?
A No, I replied today, Tschentscher was wearing a long drill coat and since he was not wearing his pistol belt and I could not seen any pistol holster there.
THE PRESIDENT: Does that conclude the examination of this witness by all interested parties?
DR. VON STACKELBERG: Dr. Stackelberg for the Defendant Fanslau: Your Honor, I have only one brief question to put to the witness.
BY DR. VON STACKELBERG:
Q Witness, yesterday, during cross examination I asked you about the happenings at Czlozow. You only talked about the executions at one crater. Today I heard of some bodies that were taken from another crater?
A That was near the citadelle. I was not asked about the fact whether bodies were dug up but only about shooting of Jews. You did not ask whether any other bodies were dug up elsewhere.
Q That incident about the bridge, if I recall correctly, took place in the morning?
A Yes.
Q Did that happen at the same time in that vicinity?
A I can not say that, I can not claim that. I can claim that I saw this and that I heard about it. I did not see both things, however, I can claim that I saw one thing: When I passed by there slowly at a walking pace, I saw that people were about to dig out bodies which allegedly had been shot by the Russian Army. These people were not SSpeople but these people were Jews, according to the procedure which is well known of the Butcher Platoon.
Q What you are trying to say is that at one of the large craters before the citadelle Jews were shot, and further up the road other Jews apparently were engaged in digging up Ukranians who had been shot by the Russians?
A Yes.
Q Now I would like also to know where precisely was the Butcher Company located at the time when the convoy stopped before the bridge?
A It was located between the street and the citadelle -- between the road and the citadelle.
Q And when you came from the bridge in the direction of the citadelle there, was it to the right or to the left of the road?
A It was on the left.
Q It was on the same side where the craters were?
A Yes.
Q Was it a swampy area there?
A No. It went up a slope there.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You have just one other question?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
A What time and at what place were you near the Einsatzgruppe -Do you understand the question. Let me repeat it. At what time and at what place was your outfit near the Einsatzgruppe?
A I cannot tell you that precisely. However, when we passed from Lemberg, and in particular when we passed back with the Butcher Platoon to the Food-Office it was at the beginning of the campaign at Lemberg, I saw that detachment there of the Einsatzgruppe moved in there; this Einsatz Unit was then on the march, and it was going in the direction of Lemberg-Tarnopol; and I can add also at the beginning of the advance, the Administrative Services were not very far removed from such Einsatzgruppe.
Q And is that the only time and place, that you just mentioned?
A It was at the beginning of the campaign.
Q What month?
A It must have been June or July.
Q Is that the only time and place. Is that the only time and place?
A That is the only occasion when I could observe directly that the Administrative Services were also stationed near the Einstzgruppe.
Q From what you could observe then, did you learn of any other times and places where you were near the Einsatzgruppe?
A Perhaps at Lemberg, or I could name the locality of the FoodOffice at Kirowograd but perhaps this was too far, because then I was in between Kirowograd and Lasowatka, so we can easily talk about distances of one-hundred and fifty kilometers.
Q When, Witness, were you at Kirowograd?
A The Einsatz Kommando 6, which has been discussed very much, and its activity was discussed, must have been at Kirowograd in the month of August, or early in September. In the middle of September it certainly must have gone on to Dnzjepropetrowsk, because members of Einsatz commando told me that a short time after the struggle for the bridgehead at Dnzjepropetrowsk, they had gone to the village.
THE PRESIDENT: During recess this witness may be removed, and the next witness brought to the witness stand. The Court is in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
ARNOLD SAUER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. What is your name?
A. Arnold Sauer.
Q. Where were you born, and when?
A. 12 November 1919 in Aschaffenburg.
Q. In what province is that?
A. In Frankonia on Main.
Q. Where did you go to school, and for how long?
A. I went to school in Aschaffenburg; for two years I went to secondary school and for six years I went to Peoples School.
Q. Did you belong to the Hitler Youth?
A. yes, I did.
Q. When did you join?
A. In April 1933.
Q. Were you in the Allgemeine-SS?
A. I was transferred to the Allgemeine-SS in April 1938.
Q. From the Hitler Youth?
A. Yes, from the Hitler Youth.
Q. From the Allgemeine-SS were you transferred into the WaffenSS?
A. In 1939, in the spring, I went to the labor service and on 1 October 1939 I went to the Waffen-SS.
Q. To what unit of the Waffen-SS were you first attached?
A. SS-Standarte Germania in Hamburg, Langenhorn.
Q. How long did you stay with this regiment?
A. I remained there until the spring of 1940, and then I was transferred to the field regiment Germania.
Q. Was it in combat in the West?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you remain with the regiment there?
A. No, I did not remain there; after the Western campaign we were with the occupying force in Holland and then on 1 December 1940 we were transferred to the area of Odelsheim, between Dachau and Augsburg, in order to form the Wiking Division.
Q. When was the Wiking Division, actually activated?
A. Two regiments existed already. They were being formed one regiment near Vienna, and then the regiment Germania had its NCO officers taken away for other regiments.
Q. In what branch of the service were you put?
A. From the infantry regiment of Germania, 5th Company, I was transferred to the administrative service in Dachau.
Q. Who was the commanding officer of your outfit there?
A. In the administrative services?
Q. Yes.
A. Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher.
Q. Who was the Verwaltungsintendant of the division?
A. Fanslau.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Translate it. What is that?
MR. FULKERSEN: The administrative officer. It is on that little diagram.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkersen) Did you receive your training, did your outfit receive its training there at Dachau?
A. Well, I was trained during my time in the Infantry Regiment.
In Dachau I was an instructor with the unit.
Q. As part of your training were you given an indoctrination course?
A. Do you mean of an infantry nature, or within the administrative services?
Q. Within the administrative services.
A. Yes, we were given infantry training and political lectures and things like that. All the things which usually belong to the Waffen-SS.
THE PRESIDENT: We didn't get the idea. He told about the formation of the division, but he didn't tell us when it was.
Q.(By Mr. Fulkerson) When was the division formed at Dachau; or rather, when was --
A. On 22 February 1940 I went to Dachau.
Q. An outfit was already in being at the time you got there?
A. When I arrived in Dachau the administrative services existed, at least some of them. New men kept joining us all the time because we were short of men, the whole of the administrative services had not yet been formed because of lack of personnel.
Q. Over what period of time did this indoctrination course take place?
A. In the period of time when I joined until the end of April; from the middle of February to the end of April in Dachau.
Q. Where were you transferred from Dachau?
A. From Dachau we were transferred to the neighborhood of Heuberg, which was a troop training field.
Q. Were these indoctrination lectures continued there?
A. There we were being trained as infantry men on the troop training ground, combat service, and so forth, and also political lectures and so on. Yes.
Q. What were some of the subjects that were discussed in these political lectures?
A. In these political lectures they discussed the Jewish question, racial theories, and problem of marriage of SS men and similar things.
Q. Was the Jewish question mentioned?
A. Yes, the Jewish question was discussed on some occasions.
Q. And the world outlook of the SS generally?
A. Yes.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
What were your instructions about the Jewish question?
A. Well, for instance, that the Jews were a foreign body within the community of the German people.
Q. What was the solution of the Jewish question that was suggested?
A. The solution of the Jewish question was to be that the Jews should disappear from Germany, either go to foreign countries, should permanently settle in other countries, or goto concentration camps and places like that.
Q. Who gave these lectures?
A. These lectures were given by Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher himself in some cases, or by the company chiefs in other cases.
Q. How many times do you estimate that Tschentscher gave lectures to you?
A. In Dachau and Heuberg together a total of five or six times, as far as I can remember.
Q. Did Tschentscher sometimes speak on military subjects -and sometimes on political subjects, or did he confine himself to one?
A. No, he spoke both on military subjects -- the training of infantry men and so forth, as well as on political matters.
Q. On which of the subjects did he seem better informed?
A. In political fields no doubt Tschentscher was much better informed.